The Q Group Challenge

Printable View

06-03-2019, 05:48 PM
Dr. No

The Q Group Challenge

So, my boss challenged me to come up with a new selection course of fire for our unit. He said the magic words ... "Make it hard".

I based the time hacks off of one of my rookies in the unit who's not quite a pistolero, but has good movement. I may change the times, so I'd be curious what y'alls numbers would be for comparison. We ran it today with candidates and they averaged a solid 100/200.

Instructions:
Setup: USPSA cardboard target with 8.5x11" NRA B8 bullseye printed out and attached centered at top of A zone. Each shooter has two targets to engage.
"Body shots" = B8 "Head Shots" = USPSA head
Rounds cutting black on B8 or credit card in head = 2 points. Round cutting 8 ring or otherwise on head and cutting outside perf = 1 point. All other hits = 0 points. 200 total points available.
Rounds not fired in allotted time should be taken from shooter to make planned reloads work and to prevent them from adding rounds later.

Only other thing you'll need are markers for the 6th string, where you have to move 3'. I use cones, but you can use whatever. We ran it on turning targets, but running it on a timer should be sufficient.

For the rifle portion, you'll have one B8 on the left USPSA target, and two B8's stacked on the right one. Rifle shots in the top B8, Pistol in the bottom. I suppose you could do it all in one, it's easier to score accurately if you split it up.

Excel spreadsheet

If you do shoot it, could you get the following information back to me?

USPSA/IDPA Classification (If any)
LE/MIL (yes/no)
If LE, SWAT? (yes/no)
Please run it on a timer and score it.

Would be really nice to have that data.... Let me know what you think!

@Wayne Dobbs
06-05-2019, 07:08 PM
Dr. No

@GJM

Anyone else?
06-05-2019, 07:37 PM
GJM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. No

@GJM

Anyone else?

I started reading it when you first posted it, and I couldn’t figure out exactly what the drill was. Maybe do a video demoing it, and write it out for dummies!
06-05-2019, 07:44 PM
GJM

PS, I just saw you attached a spreadsheet, no wonder it didn’t make sense to me before. :)

I focused on the pistol part, and the times all look reasonable. On the one hand part, the question isn’t time but rather whether they can make the hits to the B8 at ten yards.
06-05-2019, 07:49 PM
Dr. No

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJM

PS, I just saw you attached a spreadsheet, no wonder it didn’t make sense to me before. :)

I focused on the pistol part, and the times all look reasonable. On the one hand part, the question isn’t time but rather whether they can make the hits to the B8 at ten yards.

Cool! I tried to figure out how to put tables into the vbb code and I gave up...

Yeah I think the times are pretty generous, every time I've shot it I've been 2-3 seconds faster with good accuracy. Just trying to get some good balance. The accuracy part is definitely the killer and make the times pretty tough.
06-05-2019, 07:50 PM
scjbash

I should be able to shoot the pistol part tomorrow. What's the spacing between targets?
06-05-2019, 08:06 PM
GJM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. No

Cool! I tried to figure out how to put tables into the vbb code and I gave up...

Yeah I think the times are pretty generous, every time I've shot it I've been 2-3 seconds faster with good accuracy. Just trying to get some good balance. The accuracy part is definitely the killer and make the times pretty tough.

Here is a thought on the time part of it. I think you are valuing accuracy over time, which makes sense for use of force shooting. Using a B8, these are control targets, not attack targets. To shoot attack targets accurately, we know you need to do trigger and sights without regard to time. If your guys get wrapped up trying to make a time, it will lead to bad things in the accuracy department. What if you record times for each element, but made the time cumulative for the whole test, so they aren’t trying to rush. Then if individual officers had time problems, you could figure out where they are losing time, work those specific skills, and use the test to benchmark their progress?
06-05-2019, 08:27 PM
Dr. No

Quote:

Originally Posted by scjbash

I should be able to shoot the pistol part tomorrow. What's the spacing between targets?

about 3-5 feet. Thanks for giving it a run!
06-05-2019, 08:47 PM
Dr. No

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJM

Here is a thought on the time part of it. I think you are valuing accuracy over time, which makes sense for use of force shooting. Using a B8, these are control targets, not attack targets. To shoot attack targets accurately, we know you need to do trigger and sights without regard to time. If your guys get wrapped up trying to make a time, it will lead to bad things in the accuracy department. What if you record times for each element, but made the time cumulative for the whole test, so they aren’t trying to rush. Then if individual officers had time problems, you could figure out where they are losing time, work those specific skills, and use the test to benchmark their progress?

Not a bad idea... It would be an interesting variation on the standard fare testing that way. My intent was to emphasize accuracy and have guys bring up their speed to match it. Too often we allow sloppy hits on a giant coke bottle target which I think is worthless. I'd rather have guys barely miss the B8 and emphasize that miss small concept for our unit.

The way I came up with the times was by having one of my rookies who is a so-so shooter run through it a couple times, and then I averaged his times. Most of the team guys shot around 75%, which is what I would expect because the time constraint is a lot tighter than they're used to. I welcome the input, I'd like this to evolve into a complete test.
06-12-2019, 09:19 PM
scjbash

I'll give this a more honest run when I can get back to the range but I did get a chance to squeeze the pistol section into a rushed range trip today. I left a lot of time on the clock every string and it showed. Score was 83/102. I think 90+ should be easily doable with a little care.

I'm assuming this is meant to be shot from the holster? I shot it from concealment. M&P 2.0 9mm that's basically stock.

Since you asked, I'm not LE or MIL and don't shoot competitively.
06-14-2019, 12:16 PM
Dr. No

Yes everything from the holster. The times are pretty easy for me as well, but they were set for the average shooter and with the reduced target size, they are challenging.

Thanks for giving it a run, put up those target photos too if you can

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
06-14-2019, 01:18 PM
scjbash

I'll definitely get pictures next time, along with recording the times.

I agree it's challenging. I can see the single hand and 25 yard strings really giving a lot of people problems.

Are you going to be setting a passing score or is it just for getting an assessment of their skill level?
06-14-2019, 01:22 PM
Dr. No

Quote:

Originally Posted by scjbash

I'll definitely get pictures next time, along with recording the times.

I agree it's challenging. I can see the single hand and 25 yard strings really giving a lot of people problems.

Are you going to be setting a passing score or is it just for getting an assessment of their skill level?

Yeah I am thinking this may be the new quarterly qual for our guys have to pass to stay on the team. Trying to get some more data before I stamp official numbers on it.

I may take the Blowers approach and have a sliding scale based on how long they've been on the team. The longer, the higher score you have to have. It's an interesting approach.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
06-14-2019, 02:09 PM
Sal Picante

Wanted to do this as a warm up yesterday, but no dice: it stormed a bit too much.

I'll give this a go.
06-14-2019, 02:59 PM
Dr. No

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Pepperoni

Wanted to do this as a warm up yesterday, but no dice: it stormed a bit too much.

I'll give this a go.

Thanks bubba [emoji3]

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk