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Hello everyone,
Younger guy here, bitten by the wheelgun disease and thinking about collecting/using them long-term. If I wanted to learn how to do self maintenance on these guns (Smiths, Rugers), where would I get up to speed?
I've looked for online armorer courses like: https://www.americangunsmith.com/pro...sson-revolvers
Where else should I be looking? Coming from a background of little technical expertise but willing to learn.
Youtube
For S&W revolvers, the Kuhnhausen shop manual is a great resource.
For Ruger revolvers, information is a lot more scattered and difficult to find. Gary Bunker (Iowegan) over on the Ruger forum published a couple of guides on Ruger revolvers years ago.
Subscribe to American Fighting Revolver and start absorbing Bryan's Maintenance Monday segments, a wealth of good info there that you can actually trust.
Kuhnhausen has written manuals (plural) on Ruger revolvers as well. You'll just have to find the one that covers the models you are interested in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooosh
Those manuals are more about fixing guns, though. Basic maintenance of a functional revolver can be learned perhaps easier and certainly cheaper through other sources, like the aforementioned YouTube videos (as long as you find the right one, that is:) ).
That's a load-bearing parenthetical. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by That Guy
There are good and bad videos on youtube by people who do and don't know what they're doing. For a new guy, making the distinction isn't obvious or easy.
Is OP willing to spend money?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014247174?pid=262030
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014251272?pid=472501
Jerry Miculek knows a thing or two about S&W wheelguns. If you want to start out right, get info from a known-good source.
I have the first DVD, and it's good stuff. It's a very good example of both "show and tell". He outlines some function checks (timing, etc) then includes a detailed, step-by-step disassembly/reassembly as well as how to do an effective and simple action job. For someone starting out, I would begin there rather than the Kuhnhausen manual.*
He does work the action with the sideplate off which is... controversial... even for steel guns. Rather than turn that into a multi-page thread drift it's probably best to say it's better to err on the side of caution and not do that. But everything else is good info and, just as importantly, presented well.
The second one I haven't seen but sounds like it might be more in line with what he's looking for. I vaguely recall that there's a lot of overlap between the two videos so be aware of that going in.
*- As mentioned that's for fixing broken guns, and even on that topic it's not exactly a light read and leaves a lot of blanks you have to fill in for yourself. I always saw it as more of a reference for reminding you about details or specs you might have forgotten but actually learned elsewhere. If you buy it as a "how to" guide it's going to be a mixed bag.
For clarification, I’m absolutely willing to dole out the cash if it means I get the correct information and develop my own skillsets. I mean, I’ve already spent a king’s ransom on education, what’s another $100?Quote:
Originally Posted by jh9
Simply cleaning and taking care of a revolver isn't difficult. Going deeper into things, where you're removing sideplates, trigger assemblies, cylinders, and going into detailed disassemblies, now that's a different story, and may well involve some specialized tools.
Assess what you need to do, and why. Then proceed, if indeed necessary, with decent, understandable guidance-be it print or other media. Have a decent workshop space, with parts trays and tools. Thinks things through, bot holistically and sequentially, and in advance. Don't be afraid to stop for a break or a larger period of time.
And if things get beyond your capabilities, defer to a knowledgeable gunsmith.
As in medicine, the idea is to do no harm (and to know when to stop before you do so).
Best, Jon
Here is how the Secret Service and the FBI had their agents maintain their issue revolvers back in the day.
That Jerry Miculek trigger job DVD is worth the $20 then. I'd say that in general, but especially if you're starting from a clean sheet of paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-6
There should be several threads here where lots of people talk about things like cleaning regimens for higher-volume use. I'm not aware of any good videos that do the same, though.
edit: I guess the executive summary for S&W, at least in my experience, would be something like: Use a nylon brush and aggressively hit the forcing cone and front of the cylinder. Don't bother trying to get rid of the black rings, just make sure to get any buildup that wasn't getting blasted off. Gently brush / use a patch under the star. You can clean the actual chambers less often but enough buildup can cause problems with extraction. Clean the barrel not because you need to, but because if you let it get bad enough you'll spend an entire afternoon scraping all the lead out. Clean ammunition will make your life a lot easier on the last two points. But my IDPA gun could get Glock-levels of filthy and still run so long as I kept the cylinder brushed down in the right places. They don't really get "dirty" under the sideplate from just shooting. That's mostly environmental.
For Rugers, here is a guide that covers really well and translates to the GP100 too. Ruger SP101 Trigger Job Guide (kevinsworkbench.com)
Also specific to S&W but worth pointing out is anything made from around the mid 1990s forward has maintenance simplified by having fewer fitted parts. I think it was `88 or so when they stopped using a fitted yoke screw in favor of a spring-loaded yoke screw assembly. These are drop in parts. Also around `92 or so is when they went from the round (pinned) to square extractor. On the 6-shot guns these are also now drop-in parts that don't require fitting. The exact engineering revision varies by model, and the extractors do not interchange. I'm 99% sure the yoke screw types don't either.
If you want shooters, 1997-2002 is the ideal period IMO. This includes the MIM parts as well as the new style yoke screws and extractors, but no lock. Which means you can use new production parts from Brownells and Midway to keep it running but still have a pre-lock gun. The hammer will have a visible cutout for the key lock, but it will work. AFAIK this is how the factory does repairs on guns of those vintage. They just use current production hammers and leave the cutout visible.
The older guns don't have to be collectors. You can shoot them. You can even run them hard. But the factory won't work on them, qualified gunsmiths are retiring and they are a more time-consuming and complex DIY affair than the later Tomkins era pre-lock-post-mim guns. Which isn't to say they can't be fixed. They can. But if you'd rather spend your time shooting than shade tree gunsmithing then those later Tomkins guns will make life easier.
I have an old 10-6 (hence the name) that I love to shoot but am afraid of messing up. If I were to try and fix it in the case of parts breakage or timing issue, how much expertise would that need?Quote:
Originally Posted by jh9
For additional background, although I have little revolver experience I have a little experience dealing with semiautos. I’ve done some “gunsmiff” parts replacement (firing pin, springs, detail stripping) on my competition Stock II, although as far as I see and read in this thread revolvers are a whole different beast.
Am I huffing too much spice in thinking that such a situation could be end-user serviceable?
They can be but it depends in large part on your level of mechanical aptitude (which is different than spring and small part swapping in a semiauto), your tooling and your level of patience.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-6
I have aptitude, I have some suitable tooling and the ability to purchase additional tooling if needed but patience is very much my weak point. Well, a lack of patience and an unwillingness to buy replacement parts for the ones I screwed up.
You may want to buy a parts kit to have any needed replacement pats.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-6
If you enjoy it and something breaks and for some reason it's not repairable at least you enjoyed it. If you keep it in your safe and never enjoy it the gun might as well be broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-6
Not at all. I think the most common breakage is a hammer nose which isn't difficult to fix, and Midway or Brownells still has Power Custom replacements that are still in current production. Fitting a hand to an extractor that isn't worn isn't super difficult either. Factory OEM, used and aftermarket are readily available. I don't think S&W specifically sells different widths anymore, all the new production hands at Brownells are only listed in one size, but there are still aftermarket oversize hands available.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-6
Other issues will vary in difficulty; and even though the number is dwindling there are still actual qualified gunsmiths taking on new repair work. Just be realistic about what the situation is probably going to look like 10 or 20 years down the line and stock up on parts, tools and info appropriately.
Clean under extractor star. When cleaning barrel with a brush on a rod, be aware that the end of the brush can hit the firewall. Be gentle. I seldom use brass bristle brushes and opt for nylon bristle brushes. Avoid brushes with stainless steel bristles because there's no way to know their hardness level. Lead is best removed using a couple copper strands from a pot scrubber wrapped around a smaller than caliber brush. Make certain that this copper is copper. Test with a magnet.
S&W ejector rods have left hand threads. Hence turning clockwise unscrews them. Put empty cases in chambers to prevent stressing extractor star. Backing off the strain screw reduces weight of the mainspring. This method is not the way to reduce da trigger pull. Some cut off two coils from the factory rebound spring.
S&W once instructed their armorers to resist performing action jobs until the revolver had been fired 1000. Improperly done action work damages these weapons more than any other procedure. Want to smooth up your Smith? Use Flitz polish applied manually. Mimmed parts don't tolerate "grinding". Can't shoot the scores that you wish? Reducing trigger pull is not the solution,
Except when they don't. I think the engineering change from right hand threads to left hand was late 50's or early 60's but early dash models or pre-model # will go the opposite way.Quote:
Originally Posted by willie
I don't know when Smith adopted the left hand threads. I bought my first one in 1970. It has the left hand threads.
I believe that's a common description of the "sintered metal" parts Colt used in the Mk3 and MkV actions. I've never cut one of them myself and can't say.Quote:
Originally Posted by willie
AFAIK S&W's MIM parts are through-hardened. I've never had an issue removing metal. Frank Glenn mentioned something noteworthy about sparks they throw when being cut/grinded, but it's been awhile now and I can't recall with any certainty. I think he was commenting on the lack of them. I assume that means it's probably some stainless alloy and the "case hardening" is just cosmetic. I don't think I've ever seen a case hardened MIM trigger or hammer rust. I have certainly seen the forged and case hardened triggers and hammers rust.
Page Three, already, nobody has yet mentioned screwdrivers? Properly-configured screwdrivers are important! Click on the Brownells link, near the top of this page, and buy the correct screwdrivers.
For completely disassembling the modern (pre-lock, post-MIM) guns the tools needed can be simplified to a 150-3 bit, the rebound slide tool (really nice to have), the extractor rod tool, a 1/8" hex key, and a bic pen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex G
The lone 150-3 bit from brownells. That will fit the thumbpiece nut well enough, the 3 sideplate screws, the strain screw and the rear sight screw. Of course if price is no object the S&W bit set they sell is a good thing to have.
Unfortunately it looks like the rebound slide bit is discontinued. The dedicated tool is a bit overkill for $25 but I'd rather have it than not. Helpful for removing the rebound. A bic pen is sized about right to reinstall it, though I have a similarly shaped plastic punch that's been reshaped to do the same job so I don't keep destroying pens.
A 1/8" hex key (aligned to the flat sides) is sized perfectly to compress the hand torsion spring (with no room to slip by) in the MIM trigger for installing and removing the hand from the trigger.
Brownells has their own tool but I've always used the Power Custom tool for removing and reinstalling the extractor rod. I'm unaware of a specific torque value but eventually you get it dialed in with the Mk 1 Elbow such that loctite is unnecessary.
It's been awhile since I needed to remove the bolt, or the sear from the MIM hammer. I don't remember what I used to compress the bolt spring. I thought the next time I needed to remove a MIM sear I was just going to thin/sharpen a 120-1 bit to fit that tiny recess and get under that tiny spring. If you have spare springs you can just pull the sear out and eat the cost of the spring. They're sometimes out of stock (like now, only the pre-mim bolt/sear spring is available at Brownells or Midway right now) so it's helpful to already have spares on hand. If you do then the cost of a $4 spring is a small price to pay for the frustration of dealing with something so fiddly and tiny. They're a massive pain to remove without destroying, but relatively painless to install.
According to Wikipedia, the 10-2/3 and 19-1 changed the threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Moon
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh9
All good comments, though Ill add some.
The same size screwdriver tip that fits the sideplate screws can also be used horizontally to compress the rebound slide spring into the slide, install lower half over stud, then turned vertically to compress the spring enough to push down over the stud the rest of the way. One could use a common screwdriver and grind the slot in the tip and heat and bend to make the dogleg shape like the commercial rebound slide tool, but its pretty simple to use a normal screwdriver carefully as described, so Ive not made one.
Ive used the basic Chapman screwdriver set, theres most of the sizes I need for most guns with some narrowing for a couple things. Spare tips are available easily directly from Chapman. Dad had a Brownells set, but few of the tips he had fit anything I've tried them on. Theres different tip sets I believe, but as well as the Chapman set has worked for 40 years for me I havent pursued the brownells spare tip sets.
A couple 38 spl cases can be flattened and used as non marring vise pads on an extractor rod to loosen or snug them. Cases should be in the chambers when doing this. Snug rod in bench vise with flattened cases, use cylinder with cases on chambers to turn on or off the rod. Ive also used hard thick leather, like sole leather as vise pads to snug extractor rods, but the brass cases work better.
Yes, the same screwdriver that fits the sideplate screws fits the sight adjustment screws. After using the chapman bits for decades, the light went on...the old S&W sight adjustment screwdriver they provided with new guns fits the sideplate screws and works to install the rebound slide...almost like they planned that. No, its not perfect, and the handle is small, but that tool alone can keep the gun operational (snug or remove sideplate screws) and do basic chores.
Back before the little screwdrivers were collectible I ground the tip of one to use on the rear sight windage nut when I damaged the sight blade on my 29.
YouTube’s your best friend)) There are tons of detailed tutorials out there for just about every model. And of course forums like this. I think most folks here are happy to help out a newbie