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Not sure who needs to hear this, but this week I've had two no winners gun fights were both participants ended up dead from their injuries. Down isn't out and a mobility kill degrades fighting ability but doesn't zero it out. Proper use of cover still matters.
Grappling remains problematic for good guys winning gun fights.
Open carry remains a magnet for shit birds wanting a free gun. They aren't afraid of you or your gun.
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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
In general terms, I've had both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_L
Leading causes of losing a non-ambush gun fight (meaning there was some interaction between the participants prior to shots being fire) remain:
*not in ranked order*
1) presenting a non-functioning firearm
2) getting entangled
3) being outnumbered by offenders dedicated enough to remain in the fight
Probably no way to know
I wonder how many events where a “good guy” engaged could have been avoided with reasonable effort? Meaning, maybe not walking down that (I am armed) street or keeping your mouth shut or reasonable situational awareness.
I’m hoping no one needs to hear this but there most likely are some who still do. Getting into any type of fight carries a non-zero risk of dying or getting seriously injured. That risk increases when people start deploying weapons. If you stop the other guy but have to live out the rest of your life as a quadriplegic or a vegetable, did you really win?
By God, sit, the left lane is mine!Quote:
Originally Posted by WobblyPossum
You cur!
I know three people who “won” gunfights, but still sucked up a handgun round in a non-body armored area. Two of them were left with life long disabilities that prompted a career change and seriously altered the course of their lives.
When five years post-incident you sell your guitar collection because you finally come to terms with the fact there is no more physical therapy that will help, it is no comfort that the guy who shot you in the hand with a .22 is dead.
There's only one total win in the list of good guy outcomes: good guy wins gunfight, wins legal fight, and is uninjured. The rest of the possibles have one or more sucky outcomes for the good guy.
Useful thread.
As I get older, I realize more and more the benefits of the "just walk away" concept. As in, when I get pissed off by the general stupidity of the human race, and my lizard brains starts to contemplate some kind of "action", would I really just rather walk away. Generally the answer is yes. This was not always the case when I was a young man.
I'd also really like to avoid a gunfight, if at all possible. I've never been in one, but it sounds like it sucks.
I would add a caveat that the time and fortune spent winning the legal fight is subtracted from the "total win" category. It is, however, acceptable when the alternative is death or serious bodily injury.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
I should have said, "wins legally by a decision not to prosecute, whether from a grand jury or the state attorney." As you point out, if there is prosecution, there are multiple ways to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock
There's a current case here that I expect to result in a murder charge. The initial cause may have been some road rage, followed by an in person argument. Shooter got punched, but according to the witness the puncher was walking away when the shooter paused, then drew his gun, and lit the puncher up.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
As a friend says: your ego is not your amigo.
"You can be absolutely magnificent in a gunfight and still die." -- Clint Smith
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Originally Posted by Hambo
I've not been in one either, nor do I care to. Even the most cut-and-dry self defense seems like it can still be a huge pain in the ass because some lawyer will see $ signs and take the case because you could've just shot him in the leg (but not an artery, obviously).Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
I tell these young kids at work you gotta be like Batman. Plan for every possible scenario. And sometimes the best outcome for you is doing nothing, even if it's for some perceived slight on your honor. One of my favorite songs is Bobby Bare's The Winner:Quote:
And if there's somethin' that you gotta gain to prove by winnin' some silly fight -
Well okay, I quit, I lose you're the winner
AKA. You can do everything correctly however sometimes the bad guy gets lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by NETim
Don't go stupid places at stupid times and do stupid things. That tends to prevent 90+% of the bad situations one could find themselves involved in.
Even then your so much worse off vs being able to avoid the conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
I think Mas says something like there is no good outcome with firing your gun in defensive use of force, just possibly less bad ones.
This may be one of the most important threads to be posted in a long time. (Imho.)
This is my fear of carrying with a MS.Quote:
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
As the saying goes, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" and I am simply not confident that I would be able to present a functional firearm, safety off, considering the highly variable nature of dangerous encounters.
This is a personal decision and am not advocating this position universally.
That's why I never carry away from home with a gun with a manual safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by parishioner
Fifty years ago I was more naive about it. Forty years of MA and 20 years of FOF training have informed me about better choices.
Not according to the derpy open-carry advocates! Why, a holstered XD in a floppy Uncle Mike's sausage sack keeps the baddies at bay! Are you saying that the Internet is incorrect? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
"Mah situational awareness will keep me safe from gun snatchers!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Reese
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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
Yeah, and this is why I value the commentary here, and @BehindBlueI's has always been very generous with solid, real world documentable input, and I appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blues
I think one of the life lessons age has brought me is, potentially after getting screwed enough to acknowledge that getting screwed is gonna happen, that there are plenty of stupid people out there, and it is best to avoid them rather than beating them. Sometimes the best you can do is break contact.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
I think this ties in with the adage that you will run out of time before you run out of ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by NETim
I like to tell people, if you are armed, don't go anyplace you would not go if you are unarmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin Johnson
Hadn't heard that one, so true... :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
It's an unfortunate fact that many people in the shooting community actually think that they have a responsibility to interfere and intervene in observed criminal activity.
The idea is that they can somehow reverse the criminal tendencies of their communities by acting as if a CCW license was a badge.
M can you flesh that out a little more? Do you mean by ambush that the fight started with the GG being fired upon?Quote:
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
#1. They're not Batman!Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe in PNG
#2. They may decide after the fact that they should have minded their own business. If they are around to decide!
Non-ambush- meaning there was some interaction between the participants prior to shots being fireQuote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
As in they argued, a robbery demand was made, a threat was issued, etc. The fight may still start with the bg firing, but the gg was aware of his presence and had time to make some social and/or fight related decisions
Ambush would be something like a targeted hit, drive by, "sniper attack", etc. in which the gg had no chance to make any decisions prior to being shot at
A few incidents combine them. Delivery driver confronted by two armed suspects making demands, but a third lays off behind him and shoots him unaware.
When talking about being outnumbered...I hear a lot of guys talk about how their snub is a "one bad guy gun" or their Glock 19 is a "3 bad guy gun" or something of the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
It seems like a miserable situation if you're fighting three armed assailants simultaneously, but does capacity figure much into these wins vs losses as it pertains to being outnumbered?
I guess what I'm asking is "is my Glock 19 REALLY a 3 bad guy gun or is it just a gun that helps me stay in a fight with one guy for just a little longer? Because a fight with 3 guys seems like I'll run out of life before running out of bullets."
Is that common now? Opening up on a civilian with gunfire versus a weapons hold with demands or a sucker punch was fairly uncommon back in the day but the trends may have changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
Or are you talking more scumbag on scumbag stuff like dope rips?
Something's up with the weird double/triple posting thing.
We hosted a couple of LAPD SIS guys a number of years ago. This topic came up and his answer was based on LE response and stats so take that under consideration. He said in LE terms 70-80% of shots fired do not hit the target. This includes the first two rounds that are likely errant. He had a view into the goal is incapacitation but how many rounds does that take, obviously lots of variables. In the end, he said at minimum 8-10 rounds for an off-duty carry gun. He also stated most likely to face 2 suspects or to at least plan on that. I typically carry a G19.5 off duty and a spare mag. When I do carry say a G43 or S&W Shield, and concealment is my plan (think shorts), I carry the standard magazine in the gun and a spare larger capacity mag. The guy who taught the class has since retired, lives in a rural area and does contract work. His standard carry is a G48 with the shield mags. I think it really comes down to where you live/work and what threats might be presented. A year ago when I was in a UC capacity the G19.5, spare mag was my go to 100% carry option, most of the guys in the unit carried a mid-size to even full-size gun on/off duty based on the area we worked in most of the time. It was more likely any bad guy(s) we dealt with would be well armed in terms of capacity, including AR pistols or Glocks with 30 round mags.Quote:
Originally Posted by 45dotACP
I kept getting the '500' error then they all showed up, deleted dupes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
It's predominately scumbag v scumbag stuff, but it's also retaliatory vs 'normal people'.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
The guy mowed down in front of his hotel by a drive by in retaliation for a fist fight earlier in the night.
Witness assassination has become a wider spread threat.
Neighbor pissed off about a parking dispute/mowing dispute goes off his rocker and does a sniper style attack (separate incidents, btw).
Domestic lie-in-wait attacks
That sort of thing.
It largely doesn't. What lets people win these is almost entirely out of their control. The dedication and skill of the bad guys, and if their weapons are real and functional. 3 on 1 who get close enough to interact with you, have guns drawn, and are willing to pull the trigger and see the fight through to the end? You're out of time before you're out of ammunition. For random crime, they tend to not be that dedicated and once the shooting starts they flee, perhaps firing as they do so. Then it's just pure fucking dumb luck if you get hit or not by the blind fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by 45dotACP
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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
Gotcha, and that clarification helps. Nothing new.
Yeah that's a kobiyashi maru. The only reason I'm alive from a targeted 2 on 1 is because someone else saved my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's
R/E ambushes, at least locally (Birmingham metro) I’ve noticed a lot more media reports of people getting shot up in car to car ambushes by strangers with road rage since around 2020.
I’m no pro at this stuff, but I do drive around all day for work and figure that not driving like an asshole and the friendly “Sorry I fucked that up” wave are my best pre-emptive defense against that.
We just had this one over the weekend, not even front page news any more (page 13)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballoflaco
Probably a pissing contest over a lane change. Person of interest in custody, any wagers on Weapons Under Disability when they are charged?
Attachment 109145
Perhaps an uptick, but certainly not new.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
Arguing with people who have nothing to lose(Scumbags of either sex)is unwise.
Displaying good manners and non threatening body language might resolve issues before they ignite.
Acts of disrespect, real or imagined, often cause arguments, fights, and killings in the inner city. These folks travel outside of this area and carry their cultural biases and habits with them. Avoid staring which to them is making eye contact for more than about 2 seconds.
Slogans on vehicles or clothes attract attract attention and irritate many.
I do the same thing. I'll even happily do the hey I fucked up wave even when other side is at fault (I guess it becomes more of a you are good wave)Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballoflaco