0:00 - The popular weapon-mounted light
1:05 - Not for searching
1:35 - Light spill over
2:15 - Felony aggravated assault
3:05 - Misdemeanor brandishing
4:20 - Treat the same as a scope
5:15 - Possibility of accidental discharge
6:00 - They save lives
7:15 - Always have separate illumination
7:50 - Increase accuracy
8:30 - use them as intended
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yte_ynhPItY
You'll put your eye out.
Depends on what you're searching for.
and where.
A few weeks ago I was made aware of someone who caught a boatload of felony charges because he investigated a suspicious vehicle that happened to be full of lost teenagers. He investigated with the light mounted on his pistol...meaning he pointed a gun at multiple minors who posed no reasonable threat to anyone.
Certainly his decision making in "investigating" a vehicle on a public road in the first place is the root of the problem, but had he been using a regular flashlight and a holstered gun he'd likely not be facing such life-altering consequences.
That gets at the root of what Mas is saying.
The WML is a very specific tool for a very specific context. Disciplined use of that tool where it is useful is fine. Very few people (including police officers) have the requisite level of training or discipline to use the tool properly.
Something Tom is making a point to emphasize in his classes is that the consequences for stupidity with a gun are increasing. At many points in the past, if someone did something stupid with a gun and there was no real harm done, the consequences for the act were relatively minor. Today we have permitless carry in almost half the states and some form of concealed carry in all of them. We have a larger percentage of people carrying guns than we have had since WWII, getting high enough up there that we're starting to look more like the late 19th and early 20th century when concealing a handgun on a regular basis was a dead common thing to do.
In concert with that, the authorities are becoming less and less charitable in their handling of stupid acts with firearms, including more aggressively pursuing charges in instances where a gun was pulled or pointed at someone else. Increasingly the principle of picking up accountability when you pick up the gun is getting bigger and sharper teeth in more and more places.
A pistol-mounted light is almost completely useless to a typical concealed carrier. I don't carry my pistol with a WML because in my view it's as useless as tits on a boar. I'm not doing building searches or felony stops. I need a damned compelling reason before I ever pull my gun out of the holster and if I have that compelling reason I don't need the WML at that point. I'm perfectly happy carrying a normal light and knowing how to use it in concert with a pistol for those statistical outlier situations where I might end up deliberately clearing the house of a family member or friend with my pistol.
At home my defensive long guns have lights, but home defense is a different situation altogether than dealing with typical street crime. At home the primary worry is positive identification. A light mounted on the gun is a last ditch failsafe to ensure I have adequate information to make an intelligent UOF decision. A forcible entry into the home is a situation where your typical citizen is at the zenith of their ability to have a gun in hand prior to positive identification of an immediate threat. So there a WML on a long gun or pistol makes a great deal of sense...but even there discipline in the use of the light is at a premium because ostensibly that environment has a bunch of people and things you care about in it and you don't want to be pointing death at any of that willy nilly. The risks are real, but in that environment given how common it is for family members to get shot because they are assumed to be an intruder, the risk/reward calculation shifts in favor of having the light and using it more liberally.
WML's are attached to deadly weapons. Where the light's hotspot goes, so too goes a muzzle.
Col. Cooper's rules about firearms aren't range rules, they're rules for life that help us mitigate the possibility unintentionally hurting someone with a lethal weapon. If we injure or kill with a firearm it should be an intentional act. Controlling where we point the thing is of primary importance, and pointing the thing at someone who hasn't earned a bullet is actually a criminal act everywhere in the country.
Simple truth is that the vast majority of people who will watch that video on youtube really shouldn't be searching with a WML.
I recently watched someone whip out a Glock in a parking lot to look at a flat tire.
You aren't doing that. But there's a whole lot more of the dude who "investigates" the car full of teenagers with a WML or the guy who pulls it out to illuminate a flat tire change in a parking lot than there are of people who can intelligently discuss the benefits and drawbacks of the WML on a forum like PF. So Mas isn't just pissing in the wind on this one.
@TCinVA outstanding post. A lot of wisdom.
“Liking” this was not enough, so, quoted, to add my “Amen!”Quote:
Originally Posted by TCinVA
Folks in my neighborhood are on pins and needles, right now, with catalytic converter thefts, thefts of GM/Chevy trucks/SUVs, using electronic devices to unlock and start the vehicles, and follow-home robberies, that I have become increasing concerned that someone might see me, in the darkness, simply walking our dogs, and decide to “investigate” me, with their WML-equipped handgun providing illumination.
From posts on that Nextdoor dot com forum, and on some of the other general firearms forums, I have gathered that plenty of folks keep a WML on their “bedside” pistols, and on the long guns that they (unwisely) stash in the closets near their front doors.
We live in interesting times.
Great summation. How I wish that citizens would concern themselves equally with getting training as they do with their right to carry a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by TCinVA
About 3 years ago I decided to get really good at shooting SHO. It didn’t take that much practice, and makes me a lot more confident with my handheld light.
The charges probably were the result of brandishing a pistol. I'm not up on all the state laws regarding brandishing but in this state it's a gross misdemeanor.
Nothing in our state law about using a light on a pistol. I have one on my P-30 LEM in my night stand and would use it to investigate any disturbance in my house. Outside I would use another light that would be good for 50 yards. Did that not long ago when my wife woke me up and said she heard someone at the front door. Nobody there.Quote:
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw a firearm or weapon in a manner that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. (2) Any person violating this law above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of this law, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license. Take careful note that a conviction of this crime can result in a permanent deprivation of your 2nd amendment rights.
Putting a light on a pistol doesn't change stupid. That's like trying to turn back the tide.
Great discussion about WML's
In most states, actually pointing guns at people who don’t need to get guns pointed at them meets the statutory definition for felony aggravated assault. You’re using a deadly weapon to put people in fear of serious bodily injury. If you get really lucky and your prosecutor shows you mercy, you might get a misdemeanor brandishing or reckless endangerment instead of a felony but that doesn’t mean your conduct didn’t meet the standard for that felony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderland
Makes one wonder why a course isn't required for a concealed carry permit. None required in this state. Hardly anyone open carries on the west side of WA. which is legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
A few months ago I had to take an abbreviated NRA basic pistol class and pass a live fire test to qualify to use the range at the private club where I shoot. I've been a member for about 8 years. They just initiated the full NRA basic pistol class for all new members a few years ago. This year they decided those who became members without the class should also be tested. I didn't want to do it at first but after I saw the number of people who failed the live fire part I realized there were many who needed some training.
I had planned to go to the pistol range today before I checked the range calendar. They had a pistol class scheduled so the range was closed. That's the first one I've noticed on their schedule. They leave Fridays open so I'll just make that my range day. Not a problem if it gives people an opportunity to get some training. I might look for an advanced class for myself.
These discussions almost always include two sentiments, often exposed by the same person:
1) It probably makes sense to have a light on your home defense pistol.
2) You don't need a light on your CCW pistol. (Often accompanied by snark implying that folks with a WML on their CCW pistol are tact-tards).
Most folks I know carry one gun and, come bedtime, set that same gun on the nightstand. Is that so uncommon? Are there hoards of people out there who have guns they carry, and then another set of guns for defending the homestead?
Given the number of firearms and the number of gun owners in the US I would say it's a good possibility, but that's just a guess. I think I read someplace that the average gun owner has 7 firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark D
I have a G19 with WML in my nightstand that only comes out of the safe when I want to frustrate the shit out of myself with how poorly I shoot it past 10 yards. It's the only weapon in the house with a light, except for the Zion AR15 that's in the safe downstairs. None of my "carry guns" has a WML
If I only owned ONE handgun, it would not have a WML. I would train the snot out of shooting with a handheld light.
I do. I have 1 primary carry G48 with Holosun, no WML, altough I often carry a Streamlight handheld at night. I have a S&W 340 MP I wear when not wearing a gun or taking the trash out. Next to my bed, I have a GEN4 G17 with X300, plus a Modlite handheld for strange noises at night. For more than noises, I have an M1S90 with SF fore-end upgraded with Malkoff LED, stoked with 13 rounds of Hornady OO light magnum TAP buckshot. The catalytic converter thieves are traveling in packs of 2-4, armed and with a lookout. The Benelli is my little friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark D
Because pistol permits shouldn't be a thing, and you certainly shouldn't need a course or test to carry a firearm for protectionQuote:
Originally Posted by Borderland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderland
I've often felt that in the shall issue states, the required courses were kept very rudimentary to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Utm
1) make sure that the intrusion was minimal to satisfy those who believe pistol permits shouldn't be a thing.
2) to more readily ensure that there weren't barriers to entry for folks who are financially strapped - often those who need a firearm for protection based on where they live.
Constitutional carry makes that all moot in the 15 states that have it in some form or another.
I don't think it's uncommon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark D
I don't have any particular desire to carry a pistol concealed with a WML because it's extra bulk and difficulty in concealment for zero extra benefit while I'm carrying the pistol. If I use it on the nightstand I can mount the light for that, or I just do what I typically do and keep the shotgun staged for that.
I'm not bashful about turning on the lights in my domicile, either. Light is information and information is good if I think I'm dealing with bad guys.
If someone wants to carry a WML on their pistol all the time because they use that same pistol for nightstand duty, that's cool. But that doesn't change the rules we're dealing with. The WML is only useful in circumstances when you have a damned compelling reason to have the pistol in your hand. Those reasons are few and far between for everybody, but the armed citizen can expect a higher level of accountability for having their gun out and pointed than the police.
I don't know about "hoards", but that's what I do. I have a dedicated nightstand gun with a mounted light. I shoot it just often enough to make sure it's in good operational condition and that's it. No light on my carry gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark D
Stating the obvious. I don’t think Mass is advocating never using a weapon light, but not searching with one.
I’ve never drawn a gun in over a decade of carry. I figure if you’re searching after hearing gun fire or seeing a gun/knife you’re good to draw.
That doesn’t change when you carry a light. As long as you just keep that mindset I think a weapon light is fine. Just don’t consider using that WML unless it’d also be appropriate to have the gun out.
Maybe and I mean like .01% of times where if it was life and death, take the pistol out, slide the light off and reholster the gun. That’s also why I use the -A Surefire model it’s quick attach/detach.
Otherwise you’re searching with your cell phone light like the rest of the dorks who don’t carry a dedicated flashlight.
ETA: I think a weapon light also gives you an advantage of seeing more about someone you’re pointing a gun at in a defensive situation and can give a bit more advantage of you can see them and their vision is impaired. I’d rather know a person is acting crazy in my house/car/wherever with a cell phone in their hand or know it’s a gun.
But I’m no expert.
ETA 2:
I had some additional thoughts. I think of this as a strong parallel to an LPVO that are now universally accepted on AR rifles. It gives you an increased ability to positively identified something. But, looking at someone down your scope is a terrible idea. However, if you’re looking for threats, and you’re prepared to shoot. It’s nice to have that additional information to use as an advantage.
The only pistol I have that has a flashlight attached to it is my Sig P220 10 mm that pretty much only gets used for when I go out in the woods for defense against four-legged critters. Even though I do keep it loaded with self-defense hollow points when it’s at home and not getting used but it’s really not even on my list of go-to guns for home defense either. Well, it would probably have priority over my little 22 magnum revolver but that’s it…lol.
For home defense, the only light my designated home gun has is an automated green laser that turns on as soon as you grip the handgun that’s kept in a little personal safe that’s bolted to the top of my nightstand and right beside it is the rechargeable MagTac Maglite flashlight for when things go bump in the night. Also on that handgun I have glow in the dark iron night sights for if I don’t want the laser to come on.
My two carry guns- a Springfield XDE 45 for all-year pocket carry and a compact Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm for winter time carry, have automated laser sights attached to them as well but no WML.
I guess I’ve just heard too much bad shit about having a flashlight attached to your handgun when it involves dealing with two-legged critters which is why I don’t do it. I just feel like there’s much better options to shine light on things without one, having your flashlight in a place that could be used as a target with you behind it and two, having to point the muzzle of your handgun wherever you want to look.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Most light bearing holsters will not properly retain the weapon without the WML attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWT
The correct answer is to have both, if must choose between one or the other, hand held is the way to go.
And with all due respect to Mike Glover, 500 lumens ain't shit. I not only want the ability to PID a potential threat (or non-threat) but be also to defeat that threats photonic barriers from his little 500 lumen light being thrown at me.
What I picture in the situation requiring me to unholster a gun, pull the light off to search is like one of my small kids (1 and 3) falling into water at night and being fully submerged.Quote:
Originally Posted by titsonritz
Like literal life and death.
That being said. I have a Pro-Tac light that can take either CR123 or AA. I think I’ll keep it in my front pocket.
Mike did say as a side note that the best option is both. I think I’m unique in that I can comfortably carry a Glock 34 with an x300U and ACRO P2. I’ve carried it basically all vacation this week except when at the beach or when going to the literal beach, pool, or a pirate ship ride where they promised you’d get soaked (I pocket carried a Ruger LCP). I helped my sister-in-law move concealed carrying including moving and picking up a piano, etc. carrying a 34 with x300.
So that video brings up a few things that highlight some of the problems in having these discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amp
I don't do what Mike Glover used to do. He's way higher speed than I'll ever be.
That out of the way, there's things that his prior career conditioned him to do which are a spectacularly bad idea in the world most police officers and normal joes deal with.
The idea of having the gun tracking to your eyes is a terrible idea for police and citizens. If one is inside a structure that is believed to be full of highly dangerous terrorists or elite enemy forces, you may well need to get around that structure with an immediate "shooting solution" ready to go...meaning you keep the gun oriented where you are looking, usually with the muzzle up just as he models in the video.
That's a catastrophically bad idea for a patrolman doing a building search. It's not as bad as saying that red dots on handguns reduce mistake of fact shootings, but it's kind of in the same vein. If the gun is pointing at what you're looking at, the gun is pointing at somebody you don't have legal justification to shoot yet. I'm sure you can go through police body cam footage and maybe find an instance or two where an officer got shot because they didn't have an immediate shooting solution, but you're going to find a whole lot more instances of mistake of fact shootings where someone who hadn't yet earned a bullet caught one because the officer had too immediate of a shooting solution.
Context is king and unfortunately there's a lot of stuff out there that's being taken from a context where it makes sense to a context where it doesn't.
Specifically on light use he expresses repeated concern about giving away your position. That's a concern for a Ranger doing Ranger things. That's a concern for a SWAT team approaching a building for a hostage rescue attempt or warrant service in the dark.
That's really not much of a concern for a citizen in a home defense scenario. For the citizen home defender the primary concerns are positive identification that whomever you're about to point this gun at isn't someone who is supposed to be in the house and having sufficient information to articulate an immediate threat to life when you go to the police station with your lawyer to give the statement you're going to have to give in an affirmative defense. For the typical citizen defender ideally it's going to be like that cheesy Trace Adkins song:
https://youtu.be/72AVXpeo_ZI?t=55
Same goes for how much light is desirable. Rhodopsin does what it does and you certainly can kill your night vision with too-bright of a light and be literally blinded for a few seconds once photons have completely saturated your onboard supply of it. I figured that out in shoot houses.
What I've noticed is that very few structures in the real world are set up like shoothouses. I've been in far more circumstances where I turn on a light and think "WTF is that?" because of shadows and the like than I've been getting my NV completely zapped in a completely dark environment and left blinded for a couple of seconds. A compelling reason to have a light with a lot of horsepower is the ability to use the light indirectly. With the 500 lumen light on my shotgun I can hit the ceiling, completely eliminate shadows in a dark room and see pretty much everything I need to see to understand if there's a reason to zoom in on a particular area with direct light and direct muzzle. When I use indirect light, I'm not getting all my rhodopsin saturated by the light. If dude is there, well dude needs all my attention at this moment where I'm making the decision about whether or not I have to shoot him.
I can expect other dudes if he is the bad guy and I can go back to indirect light to see enough of what's going on to figure out if I need to shoot them, too.
Or...and I know this is radical...I can turn the fucking lights on in the house. Because once it reaches the point where I have gun on dude, it's highly likely everybody is going to know where I'm at because I'm either shooting or giving very loud and direct commands to get the fuck out of my house.
A guy doing Ranger things or some SWAT things has different requirements, priorities, legal cover, and levels of accountability to a regular joe or normal patrolman doing normal patrolman things. It's a rare fellow who comes from one arena and is able to really understand how differently things need to be looked at in another.
Excellent post. I gave this an empirical test (being a guy with PhD emphasizing vision, just for context). I woke up in the middle of a dark night to go to the john. There was enough residual street light to navigate to the can which has a door to the walk in closet. So I thought that since I was pretty well dark adapted and up, I might experiment. I took my old Surefire 9P which was the bed table light in those days and went into the walk in closet. I waited a few minutes to get down to full dark adaptation.Quote:
Same goes for how much light is desirable. Rhodopsin does what it does and you certainly can kill your night vision with too-bright of a light and be literally blinded for a few seconds once photons have completely saturated your onboard supply of it. I figured that out in shoot houses.
I brought the light up and aimed it down the length of the closet. Wham, my eyes slammed shut reflexively and I winced. With my eyes closed there was a vivid positive afterimage of shirts, pants and closet crap. When I opened them there was a large central negative afterimage that obscured my vision. Couldn't see worth a damn. Losing central vision is unpleasant if you wanted to identify something or use sights. You are certainly handicapped for quite a few seconds.
BTW, folks talk about clearing the house, etc. TCinVA mentions challenging from a good position. Karl Rehn taught this. One thing we did is have an extra alarm panel in the bedroom. It would sound the obnoxious alarm and call the cops signifying a serious incident. Folks don't mention that but it is an easy thing to do. Yes, the police are 30 minutes away for some but better starting them out ASAP.
Rule #1 pretty much ‘covers’ the topic.
AKA. Never point your weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy!
I agree with you 100% that a WML for the average CCW holder is completely superfluous. In fact, I personally think that this is a modern fad in my generation because of the influence of call of duty, where you "need" to put a bunch of accessories on your weapon. Because of that, people think that using a "bare gun" is inadequate, and thus "need" accessories like WMLs, red dot optics, threaded barrel, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by TCinVA
As you said, not only are there legal ramifications for using your WML to "search and identify/destroy", but making your handgun look like an offensive, and not defensive, weapon makes it harder to defend in court that you used your weapon defensively.
Where I disagree with you is use of WML in a home. You may need it for long guns, which require two hands, but if your night stand gun is a handgun, then even here you don't need a WML. You also don't even need a separate flashlight. The reason is because modern smartphones have powerful flashlights and can sufficiently illuminate a very dark room or hallway. Also, as you are searching your home for the source of the suspicious noise, you can hold the pistol in one hand, smart phone with flashlight in the other hand, and simply turn on the light switches to illuminate the whole house.
The primary application of a WML is clearing a dark house room by room that you don't know anything about what is inside.
All I'm going to say to this is that trying to use a cell phone as any kind of tactical light strikes me as a really, really, poor decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by pmandayam
They used to say this about smart phone cameras too, that they are inadequate and you need to use a dedicated camera. But technology has come very far now that cell phone cameras are very, very good, and you would need a multi-thousand dollar dedicated camera to beat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFondler
Cell phone cameras keep getting better and better with every new release. In fact, that's one of their major selling points to upgrade your phone.
The modern smart phone has become a multi-media or multi-purpose tool. This also includes the flashlight. In time, the flashlight on the phone can be as powerful as most dedicated flashlights, and it's already getting there.
Regarding "tactical "use" of the cell phone flash light, well, in a home invasion, you can use it to dial 911 and talk to operators while at the same time use it as a flashlight to search your home! (while turning on the house lights of course). And it is bright enough that it will illuminate your entire room. Go into your basement or a dark room, turn off all the lights and close the door and window, and turn on your phone light, you will see how bright it is.
Mas is pretty good at this stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by pmandayam
The issues are tactics and ergonomics, not candlepower. Mobile phones are not phones. They're handheld computers that you can use to talk to people. They're designed first to look good so they sell, second to work well as hand-held computers, and third (maybe) so you can talk on them. They're a bitch to handle smoothly and effectively when your pulse is 170 BPM.
- Light attracts bullets, so you don't just turn the light on and walk around like Barney Fife. Flash briefly, then move instantly before someone shoots at where the light used to be.
- You have to look at your phone to turn on the light, which means you're not looking at the problem. While you're doing that, you're lighting up your own face. Light attracts bullets, so maybe don't light up your own face in a gunfight.
- Talking (or any other noise) reveals your position. Another horrible idea. The 911 operator ain't there to guide you through a manhunt. They'll tell you to drop the gun, seek cover, and wait for help. If you simply MUST clear the house, then let someone else handle the comms, or handle them yourself after your hero moment passes.
- Turning on house lights is a horrible idea. You know the layout of your own home so it's easy for you to move in the dark. Turning on lights destroys that advantage. And if the bad guys are in parts of the house that are still dark, then you just made it easy for them to see you and kill you while making it harder for you to return the favor.
Do a Google search for "low light tactics" and get some training. And just buy a freaking Surefire...
Okie John
Pretty sure I wrote an article for SWAT many years ago that included this story but...Quote:
Originally Posted by TCinVA
When I lived in the 'burbs I woke up one night in my second floor bedroom, with a window out to our street that was maybe 25 feet from the front door, to hear female voices yelling "run him over again". Looked out the window and saw a car pull off and some sort of large mass in the road. My first thought was "these spoiled ass boca bitches just ran somebody down!" then I started thinking that I have no idea who else was in that car, or what their intentions were. Grab gun, go downstairs, and just as I'm about to open the front door they come back. Somewhere along the line I figure out that the large mass was a giant snake (it's a problem in SE Florida) and that while yes these were certainly little boca bitches, they were only little boca bitches and hadn't killed anyone, nor was there any other nefarious dood hiding in the car unseen.
Had I gone charging out there brandishing my gun, I'd certainly have faced a similar fate. However, I didn't want to not help a potentially injured person, but also didn't want to end similarly injured myself.
The article was about the fanny pack that I set up for "checking bumps in the night" that I used for years in the 'burbs, at hotels, etc.
Now that we live faux-rural, I rarely hear bumps and even more rarely get up for them, but if I did wandering around in my underpants with a gun attached to my flashlight wouldn't really be an issue.
I still keep a handheld with the gun.
Wandering around in your underpants toward an angry giant python with tire marks seems risky for obvious reasons...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_s
No. Just… no. Please get some training from a professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by pmandayam
My former department had a recurrent annual crisis when we needed to run qualifications for executives who were "too busy" to make it to training days. In one low light qualification where flashlights were authorized, a major pulled out his cell phone to use the flashlight function.
Over forty years in the department. Pretty much all in the office.
I didn't usually listen to tactical opinions from the employees or the contract range, but I agreed completely with their opinions on that embarrassment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark D
My routine is (most) every weekend I shoot one of my 5" M&Ps, and (most) every day I carry my 4" M&P (with a little J-Frame sprinkled in when it is hot or cold). And at the end of the day I have it with me when we take the dogs out, and I park it in the little compartment in our headboard (when I slide it out in the morning the dogs jump up because they know that means it is time to go out).Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson
But next to the bed I also have a lockbox that has my first 5" M&P in in, with a Streamlight with a pressure switch on it. Part of this is that it might as well be there instead of in the safe with the other two. I also decided that if there was ever a circumstance that I thought I may want a WML, that would not be the time to be farting around putting a light on a pistol.
So yeah, I like having both. And even though I do not see any very probable situation where I would need to be packing one around, I finally stepped up and got a couple of holsters, one IWB and one OWB. Might get another one, maybe one of the JMCK Range/Competition versions and put a paddle on it sorta like the fanny bag idea, of not having it in your hand if having it in your hand would be a bad idea (right now it sits in a IWB that could get shoved in my pants.Quote:
Originally Posted by titsonritz
I am also thinking about setting up another 4" for a RDO, maybe if I did I would also get gear to have a light on it if I wanna.
One of the circumstances I could see wanting to actually carry something with a light might be in a disaster aftermath. A few years ago here we had some devastating tornados (nineteen separate touchdowns in a single night) and power wasn't something we could count on for many days. Things never did get sporty at all (really almost NO looting) but if things had been it would have been one of those improbable occasions that I would probably be out and about kitted up to a higher level. ETA: And for sure have a powerful handheld.Quote:
Originally Posted by TCinVA
And if I think I might need a WML it would be too late to be buying holsters, so I decided to buy the two I have and have them (I used to just leave the lockbox gun in condition three). Last year I also shot a low/no light match that was really fun and enlightening (I may be distantly related to @blues ...) and I did PCC, but you had the option to do pistol instead, maybe this year I will, and would need a WML holster.
But all of this is a byproduct of not dithering all my investment into various things that are similar (just got my M&Ps, no Glocks, no 320s...). If I focus on having one flavor of pistol it is not such a big deal to have some gear for it I might not ever use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmc45414
I think you probably owe me money...but I digress...
This is taking it too far for a regular home owner defending his home. The goal in this situation is not to immediately kill the home invaders, but instead kick them out or stop the threat primarily, and if that doesn't work, then you can use use deadly force. But sneaking around in your house with the lights off and sniping the home intruders in the cover of dark is just cringe and can get you into some legal troubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by okie john