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As anybody seen any credible gel testing of .357 mag ammo from a carbine?
I'm thinking of using Hornady Custom 158 gr in my Marlin .357 18 1/2" carbine for defensive purposes. If this a decent load I can easily reload and duplicate it for practice and what not.
I looked around but didn't see much on the subject online.
Interesting trends at http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
A good rule of thumb for pistol cartridges is to expect a ~300 fps when going from a long-barreled revolver to 20" carbine.
Okie John
The Hornady Custom 158gr loading lists 1250 FPS on the box label. I don't have any idea the length of the test barrel. According to the chart below 1400 FPS is the top end of the bullets design envelope,Quote:
Originally Posted by okie john
Attachment 51021
The Chopping Block
He's on youtube.
My own playing around has found factory remington 125gr sjhp to vaporize in milk jugs. Would be great for yotes on down.
My handloaded 140gr XTPs hold together in water
The Chopping Block is about it. He does use ordnance gel but you can certainly argue the tests don't use a significant sample size since he typically only fires a couple rounds.
FWIW, I roll with the Federal/American Eagle 158 JSP in both my 4" GP100 and my 1894c. The GP100 is a woodsbumming gun, so deep is good. I do keep a stash of 125 Gold Sabres and some .38+P Gold Dots on hand in case I need to roll with it in an urban/suburban setting.
The 158 FP is a better choice for magnum loads in a long barrel. Or the 180 HP, which isn't on that chart.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
Has TCB returned to using 10% ordnance gelatin again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
For awhile there, he was using the clear polymer gel junk (even after he did not one—but two—videos discrediting it as a valid terminal ballistic test medium) so I just ''tuned-out'' from his work.
I think the 158gr XTP would probably hold up "okay" from a carbine... you might get a bit of over expansion, but I bet it would retain enough weight and penetration to still be suitable for two legged and lighter four legged creatures. The XTP is a pretty "tough" bullet.
The flat point 158 XTP would probably be a better choice for the carbine if you want to max out penetration. May not be ideal in a handgun, depending on what velocity you drive them at.
The 158 Gold Dot has been mentioned favorably on several hunting forums & by some hunting focus writers out of rifle/carbine length barrels.
The 158 XTP usually seem to get good reports to for hunting.
Brian Pearce has written at least a few articles about hunting with 357 long guns in "Rifle" & "Handloader".
The 125 JHP tends to function like a varmint bullet, based on reports on rabbits and coyotes I suspect its similar to 223/5.56 with ~55 JHP/Ballistic tip type bullets.
Many people also seem to like Hardcast 158 to 180 grain bullets for hunting.
All his new ones use clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Schwartz
The Hornady Leverevolution ammunition has a 140gr FTX bullet that’s designed for use in a rifle. Lucky gunner gel tested in their article on M1 carbine ballistics.
Or just pick up a cheap American Eagle 158gr JSP they have been a staple of deer hunters for years and the gel tests I’ve seen for them are favorable.
Neither the lever FTX or the JSP will expand well in a revolver. The idea of shooting the same ammo in your rifle and sidearm just doesn’t really pan out with a .357
Except for the 140gr xtp, or swcQuote:
Originally Posted by diananike
As a .357 lever fan, I went down the rabbit hole sometime back and came to the conclusion that 158 JSP punched well above its weight class out of 18-20" barrels. It's eyebrow-raising how much difference a rifle makes.
What's been your experience with SWC feeding in your levers?Quote:
Originally Posted by 03RN
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
The 158 Grain American Eagle JSP load expands reasonably well out of a 4" tube in gel.
My recent production Marlin 1894c will eat Missouri Bullets 158 grain LSWC all day long.
Ive used rimrock and Missouri swc and swc-wn in my .357 m92 and lasercaat and rimrock in my .45 colt m92 with no issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by swampyank33
Thanks, 03.Quote:
Originally Posted by 03RN
Well, damn.
While I realize that most of the amateur testing available on the 'net rarely conforms to perfect laboratory standards, at least having it done with 10% ordnance gel eliminated a confounding factor (the use of an invalid test medium)...that was why, if I was going view any YouBoob content, I preferred/deferred to watching TCB's videos as well as ShootingTheBull410's.
He at least acknowledges the difference and keeps his older ones on his channel
Well based on every ones response I canceled my order for 158gr XTP reloading bullets! LOL
I have 500 158gr SWC Hard cast & coated bullets I can play with for now. Work up a nice load that will work for both. Looks like I will have to think about what I want to do for a commercially loaded defense round. Maybe the AE JHPs will shoot close to the same POA/POI
I think I am going to try the AE 158 JSP. I should be able to load up some SWC 158's that will work fine for practice, woods use and STF. My M66 is currently sighted in for, and kept loaded with .38 Gold Dot 135gr +P. When not on my hip, it serves as one of the "Upstairs" pistols.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
Chopping Block's 10% ordinance gel test of the AE 158gr SPJ out of an 18 1/2" Marlin Carbine looks pretty darn good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dMXKHUxjgQ
LOL. It's like we're twins or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
I'm using the AE 158 JSP, and 158 SWC for practice. My GP100 is the "upstairs pistol" and when in the house is also loaded with .38 Gold Dot 135gr +P. I usually put the AE load in it when we go out in the woods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
Not to mention we are both Longmire fans! So looking around the web I don't find anyone that has the AE's in stock. I even tried a search on ammoseek and turned up zilch. Not surprised really. I don't really need them right now anyway. The good old cast SWC has worked well for many years!
I like the cut of your jib sir....Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
Yes. I have many hundreds of the 158 LSWC round loaded up. They are cheap. I think they wind up costing me .12 a round or so , not counting the case.
I figure the JSP load might be optimal, but the 158 LSWC load is certainly viable for deer and a-holes.
The Remington 180 grain JHP load also seems to have good results from both rifles and handguns, but I just looked on AmmoSeek and can't find any of that either.
The Barnes 140 grain all copper bullet also works good from both platforms. It's loaded by Barnes, Federal and Remington, but guess what, that's out of stock too.
The feeling is mutual!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
Anyway, I think I will hold out for the AE's. I have a "notify when in stock" in at Sportsmans Warehouse. I can get them shipped to the store for free. There is one 5 minutes from my house.
I purchased 500 158gr SWC Hi-Tech coated from a Vendor Sponsor over on Cast Boolits forum. I used to cast my own but I just don't have the time anymore. Got rid of all my casting gear. Anyway if these turn out just "meh" results I'll try the Missouri Bullet Co bullets you are using. Your pushing them at an estimated 1600 fps with no leading an I right?
Yessir. I think my velocity estimate is inline with what other folks have gotten with that recipe. I actually just cleaned the 1894c two nights ago, and had zero lead in the bore. What's interesting is that the Blue Dot load that was so dirty in my revolver is much cleaner in my 18.5" barrel, so it must be burning more efficiently.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
My Marlin will eat those bullets as long as I keep the OAL at 1.590" or less. If I let it start creeping up, I'll get some clunky feeding.
Good to know. I hope the story is the same with my bullets. Cleaner burn sounds reasonable with the long barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
I loaded some test rounds with Universal and seated the bullet to An OAL of 1.60. That's just about as far as I could go before the crimping groove had completely disappeared beneath the case mouth. My new Starline brass should be in tomorrow so I will load some with 240. I'll try various weights around the 14gr neighborhood and see if it likes any of those. I mounted a Nikon 4.5X14 scope on it yesterday for load testing. Should be interesting! I wonder if I can get a 1" group at 100yards? Might be pie in the sky with this type of rifle but you never know!
I have a red dot on mine, and have shot some 50 yard groups in the 1.5" range, but to be honest I've not done any real disciplined position shooting, nor any accuracy load development for mine. I know it will never be as accurate as my .308 bolt gun, but I'm not sure at all what the limits are.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
The groups I've had with the JSP service ammo, and the LSWC practice/backup ammo have all been "good enough." Hell you can't see much farther than 50 yards on my property anyway.
All dressed up and ready for some bench testing!Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
Attachment 51213
I never had much luck with any of the cast bullets I tried with my 1894. Mine is the 1894c 18.5" made around 2004 (pre Remington)
My rifle always shot jacketed bullets quite well. My go to load was a 158gr HP-XTP, I switched to the FP-XTP after seeing the chopping blocks test where the HP one exploded and underpenetrated. I load this heavy with Lil'gun.
To try and find some cheaper loads I started experimenting.
I tried a bunch of different kinds of cast and plated with quite a few different powders.
One issue with the plated bullets was the lack of cannelure to crimp into. Even with a heavy roll crimp that was clearly cutting the plating I experienced bullet set back once the tube started getting fullish.
I finally came up with a plated 158gr SWC load that came with a cannelure so I heavy roll crimped. It grouped around 2" at 50yds with Skinner peep sights and I though that was as good as it gets with the cheap stuff. I could also fully load the magazine tube without setback.
I was never able to find a cast or swaged bullet that shot well.
Personally I think a relatively soft cast SWC driven at rifle like velocities so it deforms could be appropriate for self defense or deer hunting. At pistol velocities the bullet wont deform and will penetrate massively unnecessary amounts. I just dont buy the sharp edge cutting of the SWC shoulders as making much of a difference to wounding. I dont think a .357 LSWC fired at handgun velocities would be that effective.
The only animals I've shot with this rifle are Beavers in the spring that I harvested for Municipal bounty. It has claimed quite a few. Generally with my plated 158gr LSWC load at moderate (1250fps) velocities. The performance was about what youd expect shooting them with a .38. Nothing like hitting an animal with a fast hollowpoint.
Did you try a cast bullet sized .359? I hear some Marlins like fat boolits.Quote:
Originally Posted by diananike
No the cast and swaged bullets were all .358 if I remember correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
I’d like to try some coated bullets at .359
I do have a Lee mould that I think will be at .359 after coating
If those don’t work then I’ll just stick with the one brand of plated that I hit on that worked.
Most of the reloading project for that rifle was done almost a decade ago.
There sure have been a lot of other wild projects in between!
Yeah the 140 X bullet is another good choice from everything I've seen reported, I've actually got couple boxes to try in my guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
Sure does.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
I wish that he'd go back to the 10% ordnance gel as that'd really set his work off from the others.
Tried the 130gr jsp over 9gr unique in water jugs today. Went through 5, punched through the 6th on the edge but didn't penatrate and disappeared.:(
Bummer. Would have been nice to see the recovered projectile.Quote:
Originally Posted by 03RN
Precision delta sells these as loaded .38 sp. Not sure why lol. Im not sure theyre expanding much at 1500fps.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4given
I might have to find some 2400
I only got them because they were the cheapest jacketed bullets i could find. I had no expectations of expansion. I would have been fine with fmj.
I have taken a couple of hogs with the .357 158 XTP and was really impressed. Both shots were about 50 yards and the wounds were significant, deep, and almost instantly fatal. Both hogs were in the 150-200 lbs range and shot through the lungs. I really like the .357 in rifles and have three .357 rifles right now. I have a Marlin 1894 CP, Ruger M77/357 and a H&R Handi-Rifle Trapper. They are all accurate at reasonable ranges and are disproportionally powerful. The rifles are trim and handy in the field and ammo is light and compact for carry. They are a very nice, "on the down low", package.
Thanks for the info! Handloads with the 158gr FP/XTP and the 140gr XTP have been "one ragged hole" accurate at 50 yards for me in my Marlin 1984CS. Are you using the FP/XTP or the regular one? Factory load or handload? If handloaded what velocity?Quote:
Originally Posted by ECVMatt
https://i.imgur.com/dF6NurE.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/rKmHQnt.jpg?1
The picture below is a 140gr XTP
https://i.imgur.com/kD0iROV.jpg
Thanks for the info! Handloads with the 158gr FP/XTP and the 140gr XTP have been "one ragged hole" accurate at 50 yards for me in my Marlin 1984CS. Are you using the FP/XTP or the regular one? Factory load or handload? If handloaded what velocity?Quote:
Originally Posted by ECVMatt
https://i.imgur.com/dF6NurE.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/rKmHQnt.jpg?1
The picture below is a 140gr XTP
https://i.imgur.com/3dW0v57.jpg