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I’m just curious how many formal training courses people here average per year? Specifically in the context of being safe and proficient (above average) for concealed carry?
Do you include IDPA type matches within this or consider it different, but applicable?
I try for one class a year. I've also made it a priority to shoot more. I go to the range almost every week. Last year, I think I shot about 6x as much as the previous year. Now I just need to have more structure in my weekly practice sessions.
Matches do not count as training in my opinion.
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You only need to take one, good solid course if you goal is to be safe and proficient for concealed carry. The key is that you must regularly practice what you learned in that class. You'll need to do a lot of work at the onset to ingrain the skills and then work to maintain them.
Take a guy who's only ever taken a 250 at Gunsite, say back in the 80's, so of course he's using "antiquated technique." But he's dry practiced 2-3 times a week and shoots every 2-3 weeks. I don't want to mess with that guy. He may not win an IDPA match but he's going to have the skills part of the equation sorted out.
Understood, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hearne
I shot my first IDPA match (first ever of any kind) last Sunday, and thought it was a lot of fun, and I plan to shoot more of that.
I'm not sure if this counts but every 3 months my church has a professional trainer come in and go over what I consider to be the basic fundamentals with the people on the security team. Friday night is always a couple hours of dry practice reloads and safely moving with a gun in your hand and familiarization with the building. Saturday is always a timed qualification and practice drawing from concealment. Then they have us do some moving stuff with the shoot/no shoot targets or they'll get out one of the targets with different numbered and colored circles, squares and triangles and have us practice on those. Sometimes they'll call out "Orange Rectangle" to make us stop and think.
It's not Gunsite but I feel like I'm better prepared because I get to do it.
Matches are valuable, but they aren’t training or practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig66
Training classes teach you what / how to practice and hopefully give you outside feed back from a competent instructor to correct issues. You then need to work on those via practice. Matches are valuable as a test - the competitive and social stress highlight flaws and helps keep our practice honest.
I try to attend at least on or two outside trainings per year.
Frequency of practice is important. I try to have a plan for my range trips, allowing 1-2 hour sessions every week or every other week to work on specific things vs sporadic “days at the range.” My model being 50 rounds a week is a better use of 500 rounds that 500 in one day every couple months.
Competency starts with training and continues with practice. When trasitionally training in the Corps from infantry to battalion recon we were heavily trained in close quarter combat, that is, fighting an adversary at 10 yards or less. The pistol was the,preferred weapon at,thatdistance becausnits size did notminhibit movement. Once we got the basic down we procticedmover and over again. A hundred hours of practice folowed ten hours of training.
It is all about developing muscle memory. Your mind and body have to be in synch, and that means your body has to react almost as fast as your mind. The first shotmfor distraction, decreasing your profile, identifying cover, shoot and scoot all become rote with a few hundred hours of practice. yes practice is training, but once you get the gist of the techniques training can be done without paying. You do not need to live fire to practice things like diminishing your tatget profile, taking cover under attack, shooting and moving. You only need to understand the principle and then employ it in practice. Winning A gun fight is not contingent on how many rounds you fire. It is contingent on avoidant being shot and then shooting the adversary because you understand gunfighting better than he does.
X
I’m seeing some Clint Smith-like thinking in there, which is great. He’s amazing, and it would be nice to get to one of his classes one day.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1942bull
Thanks for sharing, a great thread so far!
Tamara tweeted the below which reminded me of this thread...
People somehow get "classes", "training", and "matches" confused, which is weird. One is where you learn skills, one is where you practice skills, and one is where you test skills.
True but, beyond a certain point, classes are also where you go to get your current skills reviewed by a skilled coach/diagnostician to make sure subtle errors haven't crept in to your technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by HopetonBrown
I take as many classes as I can afford to and reasonably get to. Some by bigger names in the industry (Givens, Gabe White, Citizens Defense Research), and some by more local instructors who usually attend the same training with the "bigger names" with me. In the last few years, I've averaged 2 classes with the bigger names, and another 3-4 with the local trainers. Hoping to ramp up the part with the local trainers this year, as this area has a decent amount to offer.
I shoot a monthly match at my local outdoor gun club as much as I can. Sadly, things haven't lined up for me to make it to one yet this year.
I try to get to my local outdoor range for a couple hours of practice most weekends. Probably only missed this a few times this year, so far.
I think one can be safe and decently proficient with much less. I am personally to continue getting better at shooting and the "games" side of things (which I do with my carry gear).
I thought that people confused training, practice, and competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by HopetonBrown
In my world-view, 'practice' is different than 'training'.
To me, well-conducted 'classes' probably means 'training', but after the class - or the match - either on your own or in a group, you've then got to 'practice'.
I shoot classes every month, train every week, and shoot matches when I can (which boils down to mostly Rangemaster events) as IDPA shoots are here on Tuesday and Thursday nights. GSSF is the first Monday of the month I recently discovered, which I’ll do if given the chance.
I’m with John Hearne...I go to classes to learn new things, bridge new material to old, and perfect technique under the tutelage of master diagnosticians. I get something golden out of every class.
I wrote about one of my recent training experiences here, where I had some epiphanies. Some might see it as hair splitting, but others who, “get it,” will understand:
https://civiliandefender.com/2018/06...ave-spaulding/
civiliandefender.com
I used to try to go to one or two major classes a year. Life intervenes so that's that for travel away from home. However, I will take a good class nearby, esp. if there is a well known and respected guest. I like new perspectives or to learn about a specialized gun usage.
For practice and competition (not training, I know), I try to shoot one or two IDPA, steel, close range or carbine matches a month. So about 2 to 3 from that array. I agree that having a pro watch your technique is a very good thing.
I usually don't go to the square range, unless I find a glitch that I think I can self-diagnose (maybe) and work out plus trying out a new gun or sight.
Once a year I will take a "level 1" type class from different instructors to learn some new ideas, but more importantly to have someone be able to critique any laziness I may have picked up while practicing or competing on my own. I also try to fit in some shoot house, vehicle, or FoF where I can.
I'm not as serious, or seriously committed, as many on this forum, and I do not carry every day due to numerous lifestyle circumstances----some of my choosing; some thrust upon me. I just realized that I have not been to a formal course of instruction in five years. However, I perform dry work (i.e., drawing, trigger presses, magazine reload) at least 3 times per week and make it to the range for live fire roughly twice per month.
I train as often as I can, probably once month.
Sometimes with companies like Sig Sauer and Rangemaster.
But mostly with locals like Onsight Firearm Training
and M.D.T.S. Training.
The classes I attend the round count
is usually around 400 to 500.
Then I practice once a week what I have learned.
I spend about an hour or two at my
local range shooting around 200 rounds.
When I was attending classes a lot, I saw (and experimented with) a few different approaches to this. I've now come to see a difference between "training" and "practice". Or even adding a third option of "instruction" to the list.
Instruction: actually receiving guidance and correction from a focused external non-participant instructor
Training: like practice, but more formal or with a group
Practice: almost entire self-guided shooting
FWIW, most of what people engage in at training classes is glorified "training" based on the above definitions. For a long time I mistook it for instruction, until I got actual instruction.
My opinion now is that you need then in the order listed, with increased frequency as you go down the list. So you might get instruction once in a lifetime, training once a year, and practice once a month. Or if you're more dedicated and/or serious, instruction once a year, training once a quarter, practice once a week.
Where competition fits in this approach depends on your goal for competing. If competing is the end-state then it's not practice. Or, the highest level at which you compete doesn't count as practice. So if your goal is to excel at regional matches then local matches are practice (likely along with other solo practice) whereas if your goal is to own the local range and never travel then the local matches are no longer practice. If ninja-skills are the end-goal, then pretty much all competition is practice and you can use that as your reason for doing poorly in the results (I took that attitude for years).
Some folks have a combined goal of both placing well at matches *and* sharpening their ninja skills, at which point some of the definitions get blurry.
I try to get in at least one training class a year now after a decades long draught. Did three classes (handgun, carbine,and shotgun)last year with Ben DeWalt aka OnSight Firearms Training. Was signed up for the Revolver Round up with Darryl and Wayne but had to cancel due to an unforeseen circumstance. Hope to do the Revolver Round up and a carbine class in 2019.
My goal since early this year was to take one "gun's" worth (think new G19 or mid-range rifle, not Colt Python) of training each year. That can be 1-3 classes depending on the class. I've taken one class this year and have another one scheduled for next month. They don't have to be Handgun or CCW oriented, they can be rifle, shotgun, handgun, hand-to-hand, first aid, etc. I started with a shotgun class. My upcoming class is handgun. I really want to get a good hand-to-hand class in next year. I should take first aid of some sort, but had plenty of that in Scouts, so I'm not completely clueless, just out of practice.
Chris
If you are just going to go to training classes - probably 3-4 a year. You'll get trained up.....skill were deteriorate but before it getst too bad you're back in a class again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig66
Some people only shoot in a class and if that's the case, many classes are important for them. Many higher level shooters don't go to any training classes...
I go to a formal course every month and a half or so. That’s just concealed carry type classes. I’ve done a few more this year, because I’ve purposefully tried to get into classes with the Deans of our community who I worry might unexpectedly retire or leave the business in the immediate future. I dry-practice regularly, and soon I’ll be back on the IDPA circuit/routine.
I’m not counting my PD in-service training (40 hours) nor any of the other extra-curricular LE training courses I pay for myself.
I spend a lot of time learning. Probably more than I should...
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I took 8 courses over 4 years, but haven't been to any since 2016. If I had to tell someone else what to do, I'd recommend taking at least one class a year that pushes you out of your comfort zone, at whatever skill level that may be.
There's no right answer to this, of course. Lately I've been averaging 5-7 classes/year. In my case, these are spread over handgun, shotgun, carbine, sometimes medical, edged weapons, unarmed combatives, legal aspects, etc. This year I have put a heavy emphasis on pistol work, but next year I hope to spend less time on square range pistol work and more on some tactical applications, perhaps force-on-force, etc.
In my case, classes provide me with not only the chance to work under the watchful eyes of those wiser than me, but also the chance to just do things I cannot do at my local ranges or matches.