Two handed magazine release?

Hi everyone,

I’ve got a newbie question for you all. Two handed mag release...Am I the only one who trains them? I find my strong hand thumb can’t reach the mag release on either of my pistols (currently an M&P Shield and a Glock 19) without adjusting position and losing a good firing grip. It’s much easier and more efficient for me to use my weak hand thumb and release the mag prior to reloading with a new magazine. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this? I don’t want to be instilling bad habits, but I’m really noticing a difference I terms of reload speed and shot consistency since training this way. I’ve debated installing a mag release extension, but I’m not seeing any benefit after using this method.

I have short thumbs and also have to shift my pistol in my hand in order to drop the empty magazine. But during a reload my non-firing hand is already reaching for a fresh magazine while my shooting hand releases the empty one. I use a pretty positive movement of my shooting hand to bring the pistol somewhat sideways in order to make sure I engage the magazine release. It doesn't take long to do and becomes pretty much automatic with practice.

Also, when doing an administrative reload (at a class for example) I think it's better to bring the new magazine up before releasing the partially spent magazine from the gun. That way the support hand can control both magazines at the same time without having to dump the partially spent one on the ground.

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Originally Posted by anthonymax007

Hi everyone,

I’ve got a newbie question for you all. Two handed mag release...Am I the only one who trains them? I find my strong hand thumb can’t reach the mag release on either of my pistols (currently an M&P Shield and a Glock 19) without adjusting position and losing a good firing grip. It’s much easier and more efficient for me to use my weak hand thumb and release the mag prior to reloading with a new magazine. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this? I don’t want to be instilling bad habits, but I’m really noticing a difference I terms of reload speed and shot consistency since training this way. I’ve debated installing a mag release extension, but I’m not seeing any benefit after using this method.

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As Robinson said, it's a really good idea to at least have your hand on your spare if not to have it most of the way to the gun before initiating the gun part of the reload. There's a lot of good reasons -- you might drop it on the way to the gun, you might have already used your spare, you might have lost it in a tussle or on the run, or you may have forgotten to put it on that day. Plus, it's faster and more efficient to stack the two actions rather than making them purely sequential (it takes time for your arm to move down to the spare and back, and in your reload that time can't start until you've turned your gun into a single shot).

Shifting the grip will become more comfortable with practice. I do not believe in wasting training time on a low probability event and do not train reloads except as they happen during shooting (http://pistol-training.com/archives/9715), but I make sure to make all of my reloads count when practicing (I never do a lazy administrative reload).

I don't think this guy is talking about speed or administrative reloads, so I'm not fully digging the advice so far.

Is your 2 handed reload faster, or feel faster? Have you tried both ways with a shot timer?

I think most people can't reach the mag release on a G19 without shifting their grip. I know I can't.

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Originally Posted by HopetonBrown

I don't think this guy is talking about speed or administrative reloads, so I'm not fully digging the advice so far.

Is your 2 handed reload faster, or feel faster? Have you tried both ways with a shot timer?

I think most people can't reach the mag release on a G19 without shifting their grip. I know I can't.

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I’m less concerned about speed and more concerned with maintaining a optimal grip. Using my strong hand thumb takes me out of my usual grip (being high up on the gun) since I have to drop my thumb down and over to hit the release. I end up with poor recoil management and overall accuracy since my new position is lower. Using my weak hand thumb to hit the mag release just allows me to keep that strong hand nice and high without feeling like I have to juggle a firearm in my hand to reposition and start shooting again. Not sure if that makes any sense.

I don't think it's that big of a deal to shift the grip during a reload. If you are reloading, you aren't shooting. Get done reloading, get your shooting grip lined back up.

I grew up shooting revolvers. Efficient reloading requires grip shifting and both hands getting into it. Adjusting the gun slightly on a GLOCK just doesn't seem that big of a deal to me. If it is on a particular gun, an extended mag release button takes care of it.

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Originally Posted by anthonymax007

I’m less concerned about speed and more concerned with maintaining a optimal grip. Using my strong hand thumb takes me out of my usual grip (being high up on the gun) since I have to drop my thumb down and over to hit the release. I end up with poor recoil management and overall accuracy since my new position is lower. Using my weak hand thumb to hit the mag release just allows me to keep that strong hand nice and high without feeling like I have to juggle a firearm in my hand to reposition and start shooting again. Not sure if that makes any sense.

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Please do not confuse you performing a technique incorrectly with the technique itself being flawed.

Having a faster reload and an optimal grip after performing the reload need not be mutually exclusive.

Here are 2 good reload vids.

https://youtu.be/VfIaMB1TvLI

https://youtu.be/7aspKTH1BYg

I had long thought that the reason the mag release button is a bit beyond the reach of the normal grasp of the thumb, is to lessen the likelihood of an unintended release. I cannot cite a source, but believe I learned it decades ago.

I'd consider a different pistol, an extended magazine release, or perhaps using the trigger finger to engage the magazine release (possibly utilizing a reversible magazine catch to make it accessible to the trigger finger) before I'd consider using my support hand to engage the magazine release.

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Originally Posted by JSGlock34

I'd consider a different pistol, an extended magazine release, or perhaps using the trigger finger to engage the magazine release (possibly utilizing a reversible magazine catch to make it accessible to the trigger finger) before I'd consider using my support hand to engage the magazine release.

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Yup, reversible and/or paddle mag releases are a big benefit if you don't have long thumbs. Paddles also have the extra benefit of being REALLY hard to accidentally actuate.

Or he could just keep shooting the gun he has, and when he shifts his grip to press the magazine release, he could shift his hand back to his optimal grip. Seems the easiest option.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I shoot well with both platforms (currently M&P and Glock) so I’ll be sticking with those for now. I’ll keep working on shifting my right hand grip. I don’t want to instill any bad habits, especially since I’m a relatively new shooter. All the feedback is appreciated!

It's possible that you discovered fire, i.e. doing something differently than every other pistol shooter. It's also possible that if there were a better way Ben Stoeger would have done it by now. Since every serious competitor and firearms trainer teaches strong hand to hit the mag release, you probably haven't discovered something new. Do a few thousand reps and it will feel so natural you'll be able to do it blindfolded.

It’s obvious that whenever possible, it’s best to learn to be able to drop the mag with your dominant hand.

On the other hand, I knew plenty of M9 shooters in the Army with small hands/short thumbs who, on the balance of things, were better off just using their support hand to release the magazine, rather than trying to rotate the grip, hit the mag release, and then reacquire a good shooting grip.

But this was a circumstance of 1) issued “this is all you get” pistol with a fattish grip; 2) small hands; 3) very limited training time; and 4) using the support hand to release mag is not significantly slower than using the dominant hand for a mediocre (at best) shooter anyway.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Originally Posted by Rex G

I had long thought that the reason the mag release button is a bit beyond the reach of the normal grasp of the thumb, is to lessen the likelihood of an unintended release. I cannot cite a source, but believe I learned it decades ago.

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This is what I've always been taught as well. You're intended to have to shift your grip to reload the pistol.

If you have to rotate the pistol 45deg to hit the release, then yeah that’s an issue.

A slight tweak to hit it with your thumb is no big deal. You can reacquire your grip with more efficiency than doing some oddball manipulation with the off hand in 99.9% of cases.

Since you mention being a new shooter, I would at least consider the thought that the importance of not breaking your grip EVAR during the reload may have been far over-emphasized by either a poor instructor or through self-education (which is a noble thing but often leads new folks down some odd paths until experience intervenes).

Here's a good slow-motion video of the "hand jiggle" for the reload:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmIlogViPes

As a left handed shooter, I've been using my index finger to actuate mag releases for a long time. The dirty little secret is that it is easier to maintain one's grip using the index finger than using the thumb. I think folks should try a gun with an ambidextrous or switchable mag release to see if that works better for them. Personally, I prefer the paddle style mag release ala HK.

I switched the mag release on my M&P and ran it for a year hitting the mag release with my trigger finger, and after a year of practice on a timer it was much slower for me, so I abandonded it.

One thing I stole from the Magpul Pistol DVD, and I think I remember Todd G demoing in AFHS, was before breaking your two handed grip hook your support side hand's index and middle fingers under the trigger guard, and pull your support hand palm away from its position and move your strong side thumb into position over or slightly behind (depending on the length of the digit) the mag release and use the support hand to rotate the pistol's mag release into your stationary dominant thumb. The support hand access the new mag, inserts it fully and can then either go over the top, or operate the slide release. Then as the propper two handed grip is regained the support hand can make any final adjustments ensuring the pistol is properly aligned in the strong hand grip.

It is much easier and less complicated than it sounds, it keeps two hands on the gun during the grip shifting (both breaking the grip and reacquiring it), and for me on a timer it is faster than using the trigger finger. I stole because while my fingers are big enough to run my guns I have to teach/qualify many smaller handed/shorter fingered cops and everyone so far has done well with it, just many have not put in the practice time to make it reflexive.

This strikes me as the safest way to shift the pistol during a reload, since all the shifting is controlled rather than juggled.

pat

So I'm an HK guy, so I'll recommend an HK to fix your problem. They're the fastest gun for me to run, I prefer the HK45/P30/VP9 style mag release. It's just faster. You keep your thumb, index finger, and fat part of your hand welded to the pistol by using your middle finger for reloads. Some guys use their index finger.

This has also prepared me to run the issued M9's here at my current assignment. I can't tell you how many times I've been given a left handed gun. All the time on HK's helped me out here. I just used my middle finger like always and there's zero issues. If you have a Gen 4 I'd switch it like Todd G did to his and give that a shot. If the support hand mag reload is faster FOR YOU then keep doing that. You've gotta run the gun. It may not be the fastest or most efficient out there. Or the most trained, but I've seen it done. If you just can't adapt to how everyone else is doing it, do it the way that keeps your reloads fast and efficient for you.

Also when you get a chance take a look at the VP9 series if you so choose. But running the paddle mag release might be what you need. I don't have an issue with either the paddle or the button personally, but I've run into people with the issue you're talking about OP.

Having shorter thumbs and using a 1911 with standard size grips as my primary means I need to shift the pistol slightly to hit even an extended mag release. One trick that I've used with good success is to rotate the pistol using my firing hand index finger just enough to hit the mag release. You can see the bluing wear on the frame of my pistol where is do this (it's also my index point).
https://i.imgur.com/uwVQ07R.jpg

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Originally Posted by NPV

Having shorter thumbs and using a 1911 with standard size grips as my primary means I need to shift the pistol slightly to hit even an extended mag release. One trick that I've used with good success is to rotate the pistol using my firing hand index finger just enough to hit the mag release. You can see the bluing wear on the frame of my pistol where is do this (it's also my index point).
https://i.imgur.com/uwVQ07R.jpg

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That seems a little common sense-ish.

pat

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Originally Posted by UNM1136

That seems a little common sense-ish.

pat

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Maybe so, but I hadn't seen it mentioned (then again I just skimmed most of the posts).

Ok so I am going to give this whole dominant hand thumb mag release another shot. I currently hit the mag release with my left middle finger.

Two remarks and a question: in reading Ben Stoeger’s Practical Pistol Reloaded, he says that relaxing the dominant hand and flipping the gun around will not cost much time and if done properly should be safe. He also says he uses this method. The other thought is that now I have a Glock extended mag release on both the 19 and 26.

Which brings me to the question. I’m a lefty, so I will be moving the mag catch over to the right side so I can hit it with my left thumb.

Are there any techniques I need to focus on in relearning my mag change, or is it just going to take repetitive work? I’m good with that, I just thought I would ask ya’lls thoughts here.

What problem is caused by releasing it with your trigger finger?

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Originally Posted by JAD

What problem is caused by releasing it with your trigger finger?

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I have issues in hand strength relative to that particular finger. Plus, the gun ends up at an awkward angle and I typically have to consciously set it vertical, or shake the grip so it falls out.

ETA: this is for middle (which I normally use) and trigger finger (which I have tried and have similar results).

My perception is that my strong hand thumb will have greater leverage relative to the push I.e. the natural grasping/curling motion, vs. the middle finger.

Roger, makes sense .

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Originally Posted by anthonymax007

Hi everyone,

I’ve got a newbie question for you all. Two handed mag release...Am I the only one who trains them? I find my strong hand thumb can’t reach the mag release on either of my pistols (currently an M&P Shield and a Glock 19) without adjusting position and losing a good firing grip. It’s much easier and more efficient for me to use my weak hand thumb and release the mag prior to reloading with a new magazine. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this? I don’t want to be instilling bad habits, but I’m really noticing a difference I terms of reload speed and shot consistency since training this way. I’ve debated installing a mag release extension, but I’m not seeing any benefit after using this method.

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As someone mentioned, as you begin your reload sequence, slightly loosen your strong hand grip, at the same time exert just enough upward pressure against the trigger guard with the index finger of your support hand and allow the pistol to slightly shift in your hand as the support hand separates from the strong hand.

At this point in the process one of the mistakes shooters often make is trying to reload at arm's length instead of naturally bending the elbows and bring the pistol into the 'working area' in front of your face.

Done correctly (at least what I think is correctly) you should end up with the pistol in front of your eyes (more on this later) The muzzle should be elevated slightly, and if you stop to look you will find that this gives your magazine a straight drop out of the magwell with as little friction against the sides as possible.

When depressing the mag release a big mistake folks make with the Glock is that they try to us the pad of their thumb, or index finger if they are left handed, rather than the tip or end of the thumb. You should be able to exert more force onto the mag release this way.

Another mistake shooters make is they don't keep the mag release depressed until the mag has fallen completely free - really, some folks do that and they don't even realize it. Some folks also cover the other side of the mag release and keep it from moving to release the mag.

A couple things I check myself on when practicing are:

1) am I driving the upper arm elbow into my ribs (or vest) onto my touch point;
2) is the pistol in the 'work space' in front of my eyes;
3) is the muzzle elevated so the mag well is pretty close to perpendicular with mother earth;
4) is the muzzle not going much beyond 45 degrees to the left or right - if you are concerned about that you can simply twist your upper torso left or right as needed to get the muzzle more downrange (some folks will tell you to shift your feet to do this, but my thought is if I ever need to do this for real I won't be standing still)
5) is the index finger tip pressing on the mag release instead of the pad (I'm left handed so I use my trigger finger to release the mag)
6) do I have a firm, proper grip on the new mag before I release the old mag
7) am I seating the magazine in one fluid motion
8) If an out-of-battery reload, is my support hand smoothly traveling to an over hand grip on the back of the slide and an then pulling the slide slightly to the rear and crisply releasing
9) is my two hand grip established properly (once again think about touch points on the pistol and your other hand - are they the same)
10) finger onto trigger as muzzle onto target

Wow, I'm wordy.

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Originally Posted by Dan Lehr

As someone mentioned, as you begin your reload sequence, slightly loosen your strong hand grip, at the same time exert just enough upward pressure against the trigger guard with the index finger of your support hand and allow the pistol to slightly shift in your hand as the support hand separates from the strong hand.

At this point in the process one of the mistakes shooters often make is trying to reload at arm's length instead of naturally bending the elbows and bring the pistol into the 'working area' in front of your face.

Done correctly (at least what I think is correctly) you should end up with the pistol in front of your eyes (more on this later) The muzzle should be elevated slightly, and if you stop to look you will find that this gives your magazine a straight drop out of the magwell with as little friction against the sides as possible.

When depressing the mag release a big mistake folks make with the Glock is that they try to us the pad of their thumb, or index finger if they are left handed, rather than the tip or end of the thumb. You should be able to exert more force onto the mag release this way.

Another mistake shooters make is they don't keep the mag release depressed until the mag has fallen completely free - really, some folks do that and they don't even realize it. Some folks also cover the other side of the mag release and keep it from moving to release the mag.

A couple things I check myself on when practicing are:

1) am I driving the upper arm elbow into my ribs (or vest) onto my touch point;
2) is the pistol in the 'work space' in front of my eyes;
3) is the muzzle elevated so the mag well is pretty close to perpendicular with mother earth;
4) is the muzzle not going much beyond 45 degrees to the left or right - if you are concerned about that you can simply twist your upper torso left or right as needed to get the muzzle more downrange (some folks will tell you to shift your feet to do this, but my thought is if I ever need to do this for real I won't be standing still)
5) is the index finger tip pressing on the mag release instead of the pad (I'm left handed so I use my trigger finger to release the mag)
6) do I have a firm, proper grip on the new mag before I release the old mag
7) am I seating the magazine in one fluid motion
8) If an out-of-battery reload, is my support hand smoothly traveling to an over hand grip on the back of the slide and an then pulling the slide slightly to the rear and crisply releasing
9) is my two hand grip established properly (once again think about touch points on the pistol and your other hand - are they the same)
10) finger onto trigger as muzzle onto target

Wow, I'm wordy.

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For a first post, that is good stuff.

Thanks and welcome to p-f.

Rich

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Originally Posted by Dan Lehr

When depressing the mag release a big mistake folks make with the Glock is that they try to us the pad of their thumb, or index finger if they are left handed, rather than the tip or end of the thumb. You should be able to exert more force onto the mag release this way.

Another mistake shooters make is they don't keep the mag release depressed until the mag has fallen completely free - really, some folks do that and they don't even realize it. Some folks also cover the other side of the mag release and keep it from moving to release the mag.

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I hadn't even thought about the tip of the thumb versus the pad. Thanks for that insight. I ran through it a couple of times and it really makes a difference. I'm also guilty of covering the other side of the mag release. Just made a couple changes to address this and I'm already seeing an improvement. Thanks again.

I am right hand dominant, and prefer to use my index finger for releasing the magazine. It's an easy swap on Gen4/5 Glocks.

My reload technique is the method described in Shannon Smith's video, except using the index finger instead of the thumb. I still "flip" the gun in my hand and would have to do so even if using my thumb. Those USPSA GMs are fountains of knowledge, and I am always grateful.

During the "flip", my right hand thumb goes high and the distal phlanges of my middle, ring, and pinky fingers move from the side of the frame to the front stap. It feels like a sliding motion. As stated in Shannon's video, I can fit a finger in the space between my right hand and the frame of the gun- most of my grip pressure at that point during the relosd is concentrated on the front and back straps of the gun.

I started out pistol shooting with a USP, and was immediately using my index finger on the paddle. When I then started shooting 1911s and getting into competition shooting, I was initially concerned by how much I had to break my grip to "flip" the gun to hit the mag release, but my worries were soon addressed when I saw that much more advanced shooters than myself "flipped" the gun for their reloads and had great results.

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Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins

Plus, the gun ends up at an awkward angle and I typically have to consciously set it vertical, or shake the grip so it falls out.

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I always have been told that trying to shake a stuck mag out is a bad habit and if at all possible, it is better to rip the mag out.

Thanks Rich!

Anthony, glad it was of some use!