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Ladies and gentlemen...Please score this target based on the limited info that all 30 shots were fired from 5-25 yds. I am being intentionally vague as to not sway your decision. More details will follow if needed. I have been lurking here for a while and figured I would draw on the wealth of knowledge here to help settle a dispute. Thanks in advance.
LeewardAttachment 18829
Quick glance at the target I see 3 flyers: the one shot at 10 o'clock in the 9 ring, and the two in the 8 ring at 1 o'clock. Assuming the other 27 shots were in the 10 and X ring, that would be 5 points down out of 300 max, for a score of 295. If you want to score the X ring hits it looks like there might be 10-11 in the 10 ring but outside of breaking the line on the X. Assuming that's 11 in the 10 but not in the X, the full score would be 295 - 16X.
Looks like a 295 to me...
295 is what i see.
Looks like 295 - 16 X.
I can't imagine anyone not scoring it as 295. I can't really tell how many are scored X's though. If the grease ring breaks a line, then the shot should get the higher score. Is the dispute over the scoring of the line breaks?
Thank you all for the replies. Does anyone disagree with the 295 (X count did not apply)? Target was scored as a 275 because the number of rounds through the cluster in the X ring could not be confirmed/verified.
If one scored it a 275, it is alleged 2 of the shots are entire misses off target. Based off of the grouping on the target, that is highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by 93Leeward95
If you shot that target and a buddy is saying you shot a 275, make a bet or go double or nothing that you'll split the difference and break 285 on a re-shoot, and just switch targets every ~10 shots like Tom suggested. :)
295. It's silly to say that a ragged hole in the target means two shots are "flyers". I'd score it 295
295. It's illogical to assume large error of entirely missing the target based upon the grouping.
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What moron of a bureaucrat -- but I repeat myself -- is making that claim?
Nuts. With that attitude, they need to score the 25 yard line first, since that's the stage most likely to have a shot off the target. It's been a long time, but I was once a Master class PPC shooter and am pretty familiar with that target. A ragged hole was a ragged hole and you were not penalized for being able to shoot it.
I'm trying to think of something to say that would not be negative about the person who scored this as a 275. Nope, can't think of anything. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by 93Leeward95
James Keating, "Don't judge me by your shitty standards." This is appropriate for the scorer who said you shot 275.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Nesbitt
I had something similar happen to me on a PD shooting range once. Had one ragged hole with more shots surrounding it and the range master was trying to claim I "threw" a round to beat me out of my perfect score.
Me being me I challenged him to a little shoot off moving back to the 50 yard line. He declined but then stated that if I could even hit the target.....much less the scoring area of a Q target, one time out of five he would call it a 100. This was with our duty pistol and at the time it was a full sized M&P 9mm. He never specified that I had to use the duty pistol so when I pulled out a back up gun Glock 42 in .380 he just about did a dance with anticipation of me missing the paper entirely.
Five Federal .380 rounds later he scored my target the 100 that it deserved. Three in the scoring area of the Q target with two pushed to the left but still on paper.
Yeah, anyone saying that group has two wild flyers is smoking something.
Minus 5.
We don't shoot use that target but the AZPOST qual starts at 25 and you check the target for hits/misses before resuming at 15Quote:
Originally Posted by LSP552
Tell them "Don't 'Patton' me Bro...." George Patton (yes THAT George Patton) had the same thing happen to him in the 1912 Olympics in the Modern Pentathlon event . He was shooting .38 (most shot .22s for the event) and shot the center out of the target. Because they couldn't count each individual shot they scored him lower than he should have been scored.
I always assumed they did this everywhere, but we changed the targets several times before completing the 150 round COF. After shooting Match I for example, those "ragged hole group" (for most shooters) targets were changed before we shot Match II at the 25 yard line so as to mitigate discrepancies in target scoring.Quote:
Originally Posted by LSP552
Seeing 295-16X.
Saw a clerk try to deny one of our best shooters a perfect qual with his Beretta, because she couldn't tell if they were 'all in there.'
It was a treat to watch that man handle a duty gun like that, from ranges of 3-50 meters.
Thank you all for the responses. I apologize for disappearing, work has been crazy.
This target was shot at a state level competition consisting of approximately 230 15-21 year olds. There were no classes, all shooters competed against each other. The course consisted of 30 rounds fired from 25-5 yards (25yd first). The course of fire was supposed to be shot starting at 5 yards and moving back to 25 according to pre-competition hand outs. All shooters were issued "stock" pistols when they reported to the range. Each shooter was supervised by an RSO. The shooters had to sign their targets, RSOs did not. Targets were scored by a third party two days later.
The 15 yo., a consistent 300 shooter, was disappointed for "missing" (8,8,9) the first 3 shots from the 25 yard line. The remaining 27 shots were fired at 15, 7 and 5 yards. The shoot was praised by the RSO as the best shooter he saw all day. Shooter took the picture above to send to his family before removing the target from the backer.
The target was originally scored a 285 by the third party. When questioned by the shooters "Team Advisor," the score was then changed to a 275. A "Team Advisor" from another team also questioned the score and they were both told the score would not be changed and they weren't supposed to see the targets. The awards ceremony was held 30 minutes later.
1st Place: 294
2nd Place: 293
3rd Place: 292
4th Place: 291
Shooter above did not place/was not recognized.
The Chairman of the competition was approached after the awards ceremony by several individuals who saw the target/know the shooter. After a lengthy "discussion," the chairman agreed to order the shooter a 1st Place trophy. He would not admit fault, nor change the official record of standings.
This final summary was intentionally vague (no names or organizations given) to protect the innocent.:) Ultimately, we are trying to improve the way the comp is run in the future..."and now you know the rest of the story."
Thank you again for your help,
Leeward
Had the organization never run a competition in their lives? Talk about a "how to screw stuff up irreparably" game plan. That's guaranteed to create all kinds of problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by 93Leeward95
I don't know if you'd want to send the leadership a link to this or just take the ideas presented in this thread and submit them in a nicely worded letter requesting they change their scoring protocol but damn they need to fix their methods. Anyone who's scored any kind of shooting competition could tell you that's not how you do things.
Well that's just dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by 93Leeward95
I am forced to use that target by my state for academy qualification (the only time we use it) and I have scored, literally, thousands of them over the lat 15 years. If there is a question, the benefit goes to the shooter. 295 all day long and twice on Sunday. If for a competition/prizes, as mentioned before hand, repair centers every ten rounds/ stage. Amateur hour on the part of the match staff. All of them.