My buddy's dad lives in Montana and recognizes the need to have a bear purpose gun for his property. What should he invest in a far as:
1. A long gun.
2. Pistol.
3. Ammo for both.
4. Any other suggestions.
TIA
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My buddy's dad lives in Montana and recognizes the need to have a bear purpose gun for his property. What should he invest in a far as:
1. A long gun.
2. Pistol.
3. Ammo for both.
4. Any other suggestions.
TIA
GJM would be the guy to ask. :)
Black, brown or both?
Any other critters (wolves)?
Don't have an good answer for you, but pondering the question led me to wondering about the details.
I was going to ask GJM directly, but I like more information and I know he'll weigh in soon. Dunno what flavor bear. I'll ask.
ETA just got the answer. Black and brown, nothing else.
What firearms does he have experience with?Quote:
Originally Posted by BaiHu
I assisted in a familiarization fire on a 870 for someone recently moved to AK and they short stroked it constantly. I think they should have a lever action they have a lot more experience with or a semiauto they they tons more experience with.
Ditto for revolvers vs semiautos.
I think GJM is really onto the smart way to approach this. If one has extensive experience training on a semiauto pistol then put that familiarity in a higher priority than just raw power.
If they aren't yet at the time of acquisition and deployment, already an experienced big bore wheelgunner, but most comfortable with a revolver then I think the heavy penetrating .357s in an N frame or GP100 or L frame make more sense than jumping to .44 magnum. (it's not likely they'll take up reloading in most cases)
I think the .40 with judiciously selected loads is starting to sound pretty legit if someone is fluent in running a particular semiauto.
I've done some field work in Wyoming/Montana and in the Boreal Forest in Canada. I never carried a pistol, so I have no idea what pistol to carry. I did carry a Remington 870 loaded with 2 3/4" Brenneke slugs, it was an 18.5" gun with rifle slights. If I ever go again, I'll probably carry the same gun, only with night sights and a WML on it this time. The worst was needing to take a midnight bathroom stroll with limited low-light capability.
And that is getting pretty close to as good as it gets I would think.Quote:
Originally Posted by RevolverRob
I'll third the 870 with Brennekes. Another option is a Marlin Guide gun in .45-70 with Rhino Roller ammo from Buffalo Bore.
I'd also suggest spending some time learning to understand bears. They will be drawn to his property primarily by two things: trash and livestock.
Good trash discipline is essential when living in bear country. His neighbors have probably figured it out, and if he's "that guy" that regularly leaves last nights leftover steak dinner in a Rubbermaid trash can, they'll get kinda pissed when the bears start showing up. Of course some people just don't get it. When we moved into our place, one of the neighbors thought he'd regale us newly transplanted city slickers with all the trouble he'd had with black bears, coons and wood rats. Some questioning revealed that he didn't pay for trash service, regularly dumped food waste on his property, and kept trash outside in plastic bags until he got around to burning it...
This is a good resource:
http://www.amazon.com/Bear-Attacks-C...s=bear+attacks
This is all great advice -- both dealing with/understanding bears, and appropriate long gun selection.* I would get bear spray, too. At least in Alaska, shooting a bear in defense of life and property leads to skinning the bear and turning it and the skull over to the state, completing a lengthy questionnaire, an interview, and possible charges if the circumstances didn't support the action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
*Based on a recent incident here in AK, if you are shooting the bear in or from your cabin, a Hi Point .45 has been effective. No idea if they were using the Wilson Combat ammo.
Just to be clear, I'm in Western Washington, where we only have Black Bears. I don't have the Brown/Griz experience that GJM has, but I've spent some time in Griz country.
There are a bunch of internet arguments involving "gun vs bear spray," to which I answer "yes!" When we were in Montana, my wife carried the pepper and I carried the gun. We actually took about 15 minutes to work out a drill with some team tacticts. "Spray!" yelled really loudly meant either my wife was going to deploy the spray, or I thought she needed to. "In the dirt!" was my warning that I was about to put a couple rounds of dirt to deter the bear, and "lethal!" was my warning that I was going to go cyclic and either kill the bear or die heroically while my wife ran away. We didn't see any bears any closer than a 100 yards away (which was COOL!) but it was good to have a plan so it didn't turn into a keystone cops routine where we wound up pepper spraying each other. So if he's got a companion of any sort, I'd recommend that.
As far as handguns go, I think we've established that any service caliber is good for Black Bears, and any handgun really isn't enough for a Brown Bear.
I would offer that I'm a big dude 6'3", 240 and not particularly sensitive to recoil. I've found that heavy .44 mag loads are the biggest I would expect to be able to shoot reliably under bowel loosening pressure. To me, the .454's .500's and etc are interesting in the way Ferrari's and Lamborgheni's are interesting from an engineering perspective, but to me, not really practical.
Dixie slugs are very effective.
Thanks a ton guys. I believe they're familiar and comfortable with guns, but not "shooters".
Bears are around in my area but not something I deal with daily.
I would second the Bear Spray, research has it being more effective than guns but that is probably from Canada and National Parks skewing the data as well as average people are much more willing to spray a bear then shoot one and shooting actually takes some skill.
I am not saying I am right but my first line is Counter Assault Bear Spray in the 10 oz can backed up by my 9mm everyday carry. For the house I have my home defense AR in .223. I am having a really bad day if those are not effective in some manner.
I don't deal with Griz at the house, only Black Bears. I work in Griz areas but sparse.
Cookie Monster
I was out doing field research on this thread this afternoon:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...psdf258477.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps6701619b.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...psa0c11a40.jpg
I completely agree on the aspect of dealing with bear behavior. Trash and food discipline while camping was the real solution that kept us from dealing extensively with bears when I've been in bear country. The closet I've ever seen a wild bear was about 100 yards and I was fine with that. I generally like to avoid dealing with animals that are above me in the food chain. GJM, that would be pretty much enough for me to find another place to hang out.
I won't lie to you guys, I prefer doing field work in the desert because of the lack of really large predators. The occasional coyote, maybe a mountain lion, is about it. And I'd rather deal with a rattlesnake or scorpion any day of the week. Mostly because a 4" .357 can handle that pretty easily.
-Rob
Great info here; even though I have a lot less need for it, I find it very interesting and good to have in my mental rolodex. I've passed this link along to him.
It's probably wrong that I looked for bear bells in the last pic. :)
This is why we have a look outside before letting our dog out, or going outside ourselves. This morning this little bull showed up behind our house, eating fireweed. Hung around 45 minutes, then ended up about 8 yards from our front door. That is our 4 Runner in the driveway in the third picture.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps7affeeb3.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...psf8bd4712.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...pse6926f20.jpg
That damn moose moved in -- has been decimating our pretty fireweed. I just went outside to shoo him off, and the thing charged me. I beat feet and got back in the front door.
MGC -- was wearing the FNS .40 in a JM appendix holster, but crocs were all I need to make my escape.
That's cool man. We've not had a moose show up of course, but we've had our share of nuisance critters. I still greatly prefer that to the knuckleheads I dealt with in the suburbs.
Looks like you are carrying a Guide Gun in the pictures from earlier. I think I'm going to pick one of those up in the next couple of years, as we hunt Elk in the thickets at bad breath range down here, plus we'll likely wind up in Alaska at some point. What load do you use in yours? What are you running for a rear sight?
My wife and I each have a few Guide Guns, all modified by Jim Brockman. Running his front and rear sight. We have had good luck with the Garrett Cartridges 420+P load, and have harvested brown bear with that load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
cool thanks. I'm digging your sling and light rail setup too. That looks like a handy rifle.
On a lever gun, I want the rear sling attach on the side of the butt stock, so the lever doesn't poke me in the back. Want to be able to quickly remove the sling, with a minimalist sling that easily goes in a pocket, for being in thick cover. Dehorn the rail for the light, so an edge doesn't cut your thumb open in recoil with the heavy loads.
perfect. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJM
A guy I knew in Fairbanks had a BB gun for his yard gun (may have been his only gun). I saw him shoot a cow moose several times to annoy her and make her and her calf leave. I thought he was out of his mind, but it was hilarious. She'd grunt when he hit her in the flanks and hips. I think he was worried about his garden.
It amazes me that people recommend the most skill intensive firearms for those who are new. Shotguns are difficult to reload, comparatively. Pump actions are easy to short stroke. Lever actions require the same kind of movement. Big bore revolvers in double action is about the furthest thing from my mind when I think 'what to recommend.' Lever actions and revolvers take massive skill to reload fast compared to a box magazine.
Pistol: Glock 20 or another 10mm semi auto, or a .45 super conversion for a semi auto.
Long gun: AR10 in .308 would work well. Be simple, easy. Ergonomic. Browning BAR if you'd like to shoot .338 and have an older feel. Lots of options.
Box magazines and semi automatics are perfect for new people. Pumps, levers and revolvers for bear are on the other side of it.
I appreciate that but...
There's a kind of Darwinian selection at work here. Folks in Alaska have access to all the firearms you mentioned, and while there might be outliers, they all tend to gravitate towards a small number of solutions: shotguns with slugs, Marlin Guide Guns, bolt action rifles in .338 Win mag, and big honkin' revolvers.
I wonder why that is?
When I lived in the country, it was the same way, and the answer was simple: because traditional is the default to most everything, and old is treasured above effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
EDIT: There's also that a lot of things in the country were handed down rather than bought new, that people were trained on items that were already old when they were born so it's their defacto standard, and that not having a lot of money to spend on a gun can get you into old technology.
I think there are two reasons, folks gravitate to the firearms you consider hard to shoot, and it has nothing to do with tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haraise
First, the shoguns and lever guns are relatively size efficient, with a lot of power per pound. While that box fed semi might be fine for shooting a moose from your front door, pack an AR-10 all day in the bush, and between the weight and sharp edges, it likely won't be carried long. Glock 10mm and .40 pistols are becoming more commonly carried in the field in Alaska in recent years, which I believe is a function of them being lightweight and weather resistant.
Second, these firearms aren't used to win a shooting match, they are used to stop a charge. Since we don't shoot bears and moose "out there," it typically means one or two shots fired inside 10 or 15 yards. If you don't get the job done quickly, you are likely in a world of hurt, making box magazines less important than when engaging in a prolonged firefight.
Finally, folks that thrive in rural Alaska aren't put off by operating equipment. They may well have flown a plane or boated to get there, and activities of daily living in rural Alaska are more complicated than suburbia.
^ ^ ^ This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haraise
^ ^ ^ Not this.
So - I have learned over the years that if you take ten people out in the field to do field research, maybe half of them have ever shot a gun before. An afternoon spent blasting clays with a shotgun, and an hour learning to aim slugs out of a shorter gun is all you need to get the confidence for someone to carry a gun, and potentially use it, safely. When out and about, you typically are not alone, so two people with shotguns as opposed to one. Reloading in a bear encounter seems very unlikely, as well, but I still carry spare ammo. Teaching someone to shoot an AR10 or a handgun is more involved.
That's for the temporary use. If you live someplace with bears, it might make more sense to have a semi-auto rifle in .308, but you're still lugging a heavy gun and relying on multiple hits to bring down your target. I mean poachers take elephant with AK47s and FALs all the time in Africa, but often on full auto. PHs and local governments don't let folks hunt elephants with anything less than a .4xx, because they rely on shot placement and one-shot kills, with really big and powerful bullets, and in fact if you talk to some PHs their "backup" gun in case of a charge is a pump or semi-auto shotgun with slugs loaded in it. These are folks are kill really large and dangerous animals for a living, that should tell use something.
Edit: And I think we've had this conversation before, maybe in the long gun forum, but the general consensus is - If you're within 25 yards of anything you might want to kill, a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with buck for two-legged primates, and slugs for anything bigger than a two-legged primate seems to be the best from a power-to-usability perspective.
-Rob
As long as we are discussing size efficient stopping rifles, here is one of my favorites. A .450 Marlin built on a controlled feed, short action model 70. Aimpoint, light mount, aperture sights. Holds six down rounds of 400 grains loaded to 2,150 fps, meaning .458 WM lite performance in a 6.5 pound rifle.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps65c8f337.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps0d15d713.jpg
I'm looking at those pictures and coveting.
I bet it kicks like the dickens. What kind of recoil pad?
Oh, and why .450 Marlin, vs. 45-70?
The recoil is on par with a Brenneke out of a 12 gauge or 420 grain hard cast out of a Guide Gun, so it gets your attention but isn't painful. Limbsaver pad, which is part of the reason it doesn't hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester Polfus
I'm guessing the .450 Marlin is better suited for feeding in a bolt action than the 45-70?
400 grains at 2150 fps out of a 6.5 lb short rifle and it isn't painful? I think that I'd flinch before I put my finger on the trigger. I keep getting the sense that light armor might be a more sensible way of dealing with your bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by GJM