If only Beretta made a DA/SA single stack..the market is crowded with SFA single stacks.
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If only Beretta made a DA/SA single stack..the market is crowded with SFA single stacks.
A nice trim single stack DA/SA is sorely needed, That is a market that is wide open, I would think HK, Beretta, and CZ would exploit that.
It exists in the Springfield Xd-e. But that's the only game in town, for now. Can't say I was in love with the way it shot... but it seems like a decent gun.
I'm glad Beretta is introducing a single stack APX. Strikers aren't really my thing, but I really liked the feel of the APXs I've held. I'd be interested in trying it--though I'd prefer a safety on a SFA gun, which no seems too keen on offering anymore.
For the foreseeable future, it's a P239 and a P245 for my single stack needs.
I finally got over my mental aversion to GRIP ZONE and handled one at the gun store this week with a thought toward possibly buying one. I was disapointed to find it is HEAVIER than my P2000, the decocker was unusable with a firing grip (the right side lever hit my hand when trying to actuate the left side lever), and the bore axis makes a hammer fired H&K feel like a P7. It was also far from svelt; a single stack P2000sk is where my heart still lies.
More people as in consumers or more people as in agencies?
Agencies it's an easy answer: It is slightly harder to teach multiple trigger presses than one trigger press, and during their initial blitz of the law enforcement market, Glock hit this point HARD. To the point that there is an entire generation of cops who are now in administration who believe in their heart of hearts that their shooter's qual scores will be better with striker fired guns vs DA/SA even if what little data there is on this doesn't back it up. But since most departments aren't run by "gun people" and their cops shoot twice a year at best, it's easier to teach to the test with a single trigger pull.
More consumers don't use it because the average gun consumer is maybe a little bit smarter than a bag full of hammers and isn't really a talented enough shooter to appreciate the mechanical advantages of a DA/SA trigger over a SFA gun.
Hammers at least have an excuse.
My dad had adopted a colleague's axiom back in the early 1960's and used it frequently: "The masses are asses." It fit nicely with dad's general opinion that whatever item was the most popular with the average person(s), it was probably not purchased because it was actually the best item in its class. I've given advice to people who came to me because I happened to be the "gun guy" in their lives, and I have now concluded that giving the most well-intentioned, logical, common-sense advice possible to prospective gun buyers is usually as rewarding as urinating into a high wind.
As for the APX, I find the grip of the current iterations to be as good or better than anything else out there, but can't reconcile myself to the perceived bulk of the rest of the pistol (the full-size APX somehow brings to mind a BSA Scorpion air pistol I once owned). I am at least curious to see what this rumored APX single-stack is like, but I'd have been more interested in a slimmed-down DA/SA along the lines of the PX4 SC (with a slightly longer grip).
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A large bag full of money? Here's the big problem with striker fired guns, and I said this much to Beretta recently. They're all the same. If you put a VP9, a P320, a Glock 19, a Beretta APX, a Walther PPQ, and an M&P 2.0 in a bucket and told me whichever one I grabbed first I had to carry on duty, I wouldn't give a shit which one I grabbed. Sure, each of them does something better than one of the other ones, but they're all the fuckin' same designed to do the exact same thing.
So just to clarify on the DA/SA system VS striker, on the LE side we have a generation of striker babies spawned over a 25 year span that are institutionally indoctrinated to the system and cant or wont take the time and or investment to properly train their personnel in the correct use of the DA/SA, which is in every measurable matrix, a vastly superior system. And the commercial market folks are simply too stupid to know the difference either way. That about cover it?
I like the idea of just having one trigger pull, in theory. With most DA/SA guns, I do slightly shift my grip on the transition--which isn't ideal, I suppose. But while SFA guns offer that one-pull simplicity, they offer neither the peace of mind of a DA, nor the shootability of a SA. So, in essence, that simplicity gains you (or at least me) nothing.
And if "one length of pull" is the goal... 1911s and Hi Powers have been doing it better than anyone for decades. I will say I have come to appreciate the simplicity and inherent shootability of my recently acquired Hi Power. And though I have carried it cocked and locked (as opposed to cocked and unlocked, which is your only option with most SFA guns), my go-to is still a single-stack Sig DA/SA.
For what it's worth, I grew up on Sigs and I didn't have many things to say about carrying the M9 other than what William Atwater said about the Abrams.
I've been thinking about going back to something Beretta but I also have to take a hard look at myself and ask if I'm really developed my shooting to the level that would justify it.
There is no singular "best" here: Shoot what makes sense to you in your daily life/routine and make decisions based on your mode of carry, threat model, etc...
Personally, I like the peace of mind of a DA/SA gun when carrying AIWB, but that's just me. More so, I appreciate a mechanically reliable, metal frame pistol as opposed to a plastic gun. Again, just me.
Trying to insist DA/SA is superior is just selling opinion. It's my opinion DA/SA is a safety crutch.
One of the main pistols I learned on as a youngster was an early Sig P220 (heel clip release for the magazine). It was a fine gun. I also learned on BHP's and 1911's. I had to shoot the M9 during my years in uniform. There is nothing anyone can say or do that will ever get me to prefer a DA/SA gun over a SAO or SFA gun. For those shooters who believe DA/SA is easier to shoot... I'll never understand that. For those who believe it's safer because the first press requires more weight, I think that's a load of marketing manure. Any schmuck who lets his booger eater inside the trigger guard can/will have a negligent discharge regardless of trigger weight. And frankly I'm not willing to handicap my ability to run the gun because someone else relies on the DA trigger for "additional safety" nonsense. I liken it to the M16 after Vietnam losing full auto to a 3 round burst. Rather than fix a training problem (shooters firing wild and un-aimed into the jungle), they changed the weapon. It's my opinion that DA/SA is a hardware solution for a software problem.
Working as a firearms instructor I've seen plenty of LEO's who barely run a gun well enough to qualify. But giving them a DA/SA isn't going to make me feel any safer, and I don't see it reducing liability on the street. If ND's are a problem, fix the problem - the shooter. Don't punish the rest of us by "fixing" the gun.
Not really - the DA/SA only exists as a “fix” to having every trigger press the same (whether a striker or hammer SA gun is irrelevant). That's circular logic. The shooters shouldn’t have to get used to or master a DA/SA gun, because they are a safety crutch and never should have been issued in the first place.
Back to the original topic, I wonder if the single stack will debut before the Beretta APX rebate is over. It was $50 last year and I was able to resist. But now it's $75 for any APX purchase between Feb 1 and Apr 30th. Combined with Arms Unlimited's $440 price tag, I couldn't say no.
http://promo.beretta.com/2019-apx-pr...645.1525213299
I don't believe it is easier to shoot for the neophyte. That said, I don't think that any gun is easier for the newbie.
Reality is, they'll get used to whatever is given.
Does the longer DA pull take some time to master? Maybe.
If I had two new shooters equal in skill and gave one a glock and the other a 92 and said they had to accomplish some task and get training, I think both would rise to whatever challenge was laid before 'em.
I don't think it is the weight, necessarily, as much as the mechanical action: e.g. it does two things: cock and release the hammer.
I think it is the cocking of the hammer coupled, which generally takes a bit more force that most people appreciate...
Personally, I think the hammer on a DA/SA gun gives a nice margin of feedback/status and layers well on the "thumb-check" doctrine that most trainers espouse.
I don't think anyone disagrees.
I think this is more of a departmental policy... That decision seems to fall to whoever gets bought to the titty-bar, promised some swag/training/trade-in gear, etc...
Let's face it tho: most of these designs actually work alright. If it was such a handicap, would top-10 Production division USPSA dudes be wrecking folks with DA/SA guns?
It is only a problem if you think it is a problem. If you want to go SF, it's a free country...
Actually... (LOL) I think it is just a mechanical solution that was durable, reliable and well-understood at the time. I don't claim to understand enough of firearms design/history, but other than a few vest pocket guns/etc, there weren't really many striker-fired designs pre 1970's?
I don't think anyone disagrees.
Les, for competition use it is hard to separate the benefit of DA/SA as a trigger system from the light SA pull weights of these DA/SA guns and their 40+ ounce empty weights. I suspect a 45 ounce striker with a 2.5 pound trigger would be pretty darn competitive in USPSA Production.
So like a Walther Q5 SF with that springco kit to get the trigger pull weight down? That'd be an interesting comparison with a Shadow 2.
Agreed. So why have it? I had heard it was good for folks moving from revolvers to pistols back when there were lots of shooters making that change, but if we can train a shooter to an acceptable level why have Da/SA? Especially in a Gadget world for those who want it. It’s not my fault @Tom_Jones hasn’t made them for the other SFA guns. Lol! ;)
From Todd L. Green, quoted by Lucky Gunner
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...double-action/
Ernest Langdon, beginning at around 2:15Quote:
“[With] a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We’ve lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter striker fired action triggers and candidly I doubt we’ll see the pendulum swing back any time soon… The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8t-f54Im0
I'm not trying to convince you to choose a DA/SA gun, I'm just answering your question.
Since you mentioned you have 1911 and Browning Hi-Power experience, do we carry 1911's and Hi-Power's with the safety's off? No, because we think it's unsafe to have such a short, light trigger without a safety. Striker's are generally considered "safer" than a 1911 or Hi-Power with no safety because there is more trigger travel and, generally, a heavier trigger. Likewise, a DA/SA pistol is generally considered safer than a striker fired pistol because it has yet a longer and heavier trigger, not to mention the visual, and often tactile hammer.
Mostly because I trust the 92.
Partly, because I'll be damed if I switch to a Walther or HK striker that goes to 1/2 cock when tapped on the top with a mallet (you ever seen Paul Sharp's hands?) or trust my junk to a Sig<insert product here that was recalled: 365 || 320>.
Which leaves the Glock. I've shot a lifetimes worth of .40 through a series of 'em and don't dislike them, but, I just liked the CZ and the 92 that much more... I think I shoot ok with it, or do you want to argue about that too?
I can't help but wonder if Beretta is trying to capture the high-end pistol intelligentsia with the PX4 Compact Carry and 92 LTT Elite so that they say nice things about Beretta to the hoi polloi who buy things like single-stack striker fired Shield competitors.
Having shot some different pistols, and been doing internet for a while, it is obvious to me where these discussions come off the rails.
If someone says I love shooting a 92 or whatever for these reasons it is all good. The problems start when someone doesn’t just say I love the X for these reasons, but goes further and also says “I really like the X even more because Y and Z suck.” My experience is there isn’t a perfect pistol, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, and most can be shot pretty well. People don’t mind you touting what you like but they react poorly to you running down what they shoot in the process.
I think this is dead on.
Having shot and competed with so many different pistols, I've personally come to the conclusion that it is a game of tradeoffs. I'd love a Glock 48 size/weight DA/SA that shoots like a Shadow 2, has a big magwell, is capable of 2" groups at 50y, and has crazy amounts aftermarket support, but it doesn't exist (and probably never will). We are all having to prioritize what we find most valuable, which is why this section of the forum exists.
As far as a Beretta APX single stack, I think it would be semi-interesting. I at least would be very confident it would run reliably.
Lots of truth to this. As a example, I paid $380 or so for my M2.0 Smiths and I also shot a $1200 Legion 226 and they were both really nice in their own ways. We are spoiled for choice in a big, big way these days. I have no brand rivalry in me despite my deep affection for Berettas because they're what I learned on.
Not really, because those are limited editions. Because they're marketed to enthusiasts with a built in audience, they'll sell all of those pistols that they make but they also won't make a whole lot of those guns. What Beretta really needs is for people to buy the APX because they actually make money when you buy an APX.
C'mon, let's face it: Pistols are something that Beretta sells in order to sell you a high-end shotgun...
:D
Yeah... IDK. I mean, Ernest worked at Beretta for a long time. Bill Wilson has liked the 92 for a long time... I think the Beretta pistol consiglieres are finally listening to some of the good ideas that are coming in...Quote:
Originally Posted by perlslacker
I'm in no way saying people shouldn't own, carry or use DA/SA guns. If that's what you like, go for it. I do think they are unnecessary as a technology, but I'm not telling anyone not to have one. My comments were to counter the "DA/SA is the best and SFA are dangerous" mindset. I know there is a lot of love for them here at PF, and I usually scroll past all the "DA/SA is the greatest" proclamations. Occasionally though my tolerance filter gets full and I feel compelled to reply.
Regarding Todd and Ernie's quotes, I have considerable respect for them and their backgrounds. But in my experience, being able to recognize the longer press, sense the hammer, etc. only happens on the flat range, or during dry fire. For most users when you add stress, they won't notice any of that and if they are poorly trained a ND will result with any trigger system. I have long believed any trigger that has enough weight and travel to prevent ND's under stress would be so horrible that the gun would be unshootable.
Regarding C&L guns like the 1911 or BHP, they are similar in that every trigger press is the same. But they have safeties and we use them because the hammer is fully cocked. The trigger just releases the hammer. It's funny you mention that because I am uncomfortable with the fully tensions striker guns on the market. I carry/shoot Glocks almost exclusively (all with factory triggers), and I just ordered an APX which from my research is only partially cocked.
Again - carry/shoot whatever you want. But I don't believe DA/SA makes anyone safer than SFA or SA guns. A shooter who doesn't keep the finger off the trigger can have an ND with any style of trigger mechanism.
Grainy video but it looks like a Beretta 92 series to me. I suppose she could have thumb cocked the gun, but I don’t believe any shots were fired before this incident, which means she pressed all the way through a DA trigger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joym4HBiZn0