Pistol Barrel Cleaning?

I have a question for everyone. I will ask the question first because I want that to be the primary topic here (at least at first). After that I will throw in some details/back story.

You hear regularly about rifle barrels needing to be cleaned (at some point) to maintain accuracy. In your experience how does that same concept apply to general accuracy with pistols? Have you ever had serious accuracy declines because of a dirty gun/barrel?

Given you can shoot tiny groups with a rifle so it is relatively easier to see accuracy and/or accuracy degradation. With pistols though it's still somewhat accurate, but no where near the levels of rifles (if for nothing else the reason being "generally how" they are shot, IE standing, unsupported etc vs bench/prone/supported etc)

Background:

Recently I did some changes to my carry gun (365XL) which also included swapping out the factory barrel for an after market one. For a while now I have been thinking "Man, I might just be rusty or something!" because I was not having a ton of accuracy to my liking out of that gun. I pop in a new barrel though and wow. 15 yards I was tagging a 4" square and had SUBSTANTIALLY better groupings/consistency. For a small carry gun this (to me) is pretty good.

This made me curious so I shot with the factory barrel... back to the same old. Swapped to the new barrel, great improvement (again). I did this test several times on the same day, with the same gun, same shooter, same target, same ammo. The ONLY variable was the barrel swap. When I say better it was like 1/3 the size (or better) of average groupings on a freshly painted target.

I don't think I've cleaned the factory barrel since I've owned the gun-- with somewhere in the neighborhood of 3K++ rounds on it. None the less I was starting to think either my shooting ability has declined a bit, or that gun 'just wasn't that accurate'... Well I definitely proved to myself that the latter is not true and most likely my abilities are not the culprit. Hence the idea that 'maybe' the barrel just needed to be cleaned.

I could have just a crappy factory barrel, which is a possibility, but the contrast is massive. I am definitely carrying with the new barrel now so practically speaking it's a moot point other than the fact that I want to use this as a learning opportunity. It didn't seem like the factory barrel shot that bad at first... but now, it seems like it pretty much sucks.

In that context, I am all ears. For the more experienced among you, please teach me something that possibly could be useful regarding handguns.

More barrels are ruined by over-cleaning than are shot out.

I got to shoot for a couple weeks at the AMU years ago, the only thing we did to the rifles was run a patch through the barrel and lube. I adopted that practice with my rifles.

I clean the other components of my pistols more rigorously than I do the barrels. I'd guess prior to covid, I'd run over 1,000 rounds through a pistol before I even took it apart, much less cleaned the bore. Keep the pistol lubed and clean the firing residue from the working parts on occasion and things will be fine.

One caveat, I clean my carry pistols after every range trip as I do the SBR and shotgun that live with us in our bedroom.

Isn't it just a bad original barrel? Nowhere it is mentioned that the gun was okay when new. So it's just a screw-up at the factory. Maybe the hood is too narrow, allowing for an inconsistent lock-up, or the muzzle is damaged and allows an inconsistent exit for the bullet, or something else.

What happened when you cleaned the original factory Sig barrel and re-shot your test?

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Originally Posted by RJ

What happened when you cleaned the original factory Sig barrel and re-shot your test?

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I didn't have cleaning supplies with me at the time. My intent was to run some ammo as one final check (for reliability) and in doing so it was very apparent about the differences in performance. Hence the side by side "test".

I tossed the old barrel in the parts bin so I still have it, but this whole episode made me very curious.

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Originally Posted by zaitcev

Isn't it just a bad original barrel? Nowhere it is mentioned that the gun was okay when new.

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It 'seemed' like it went down hill over time. That said when I switched to carry that specific gun, it was also the same time I switched to using red dots. Hence there was lots and lots of learning going on in that process before I was fully confident in carrying it.

That said this new barrel is head and shoulders more accurate. There is zero question in my mind about that. So yes the original barrel seemed like it shot better at first, but then over time it went progressively down hill. The new barrel though is in my opinion better than the original one at it's peak.

In other words if someone had a Ransom Rest or something like that the differences would be present regardless of what stage the original barrel was in, but as I stated it was seemingly getting worse over time. I was actually getting better with the gun, but the fact that the barrel was somehow going down hill at the same time led to a bit of confusion.

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Originally Posted by Dan Lehr

More barrels are ruined by over-cleaning than are shot out.

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Im curious about this. I have never thought about over cleaning. I dont think Im in danger. I run a pitch here and there through my Glocks. On my revolvers I clean them a little more often because Im shooting reloads and have shot lead.

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Originally Posted by camsdaddy

Im curious about this. I have never thought about over cleaning. I dont think Im in danger. I run a pitch here and there through my Glocks. On my revolvers I clean them a little more often because Im shooting reloads and have shot lead.

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Here is a video specific to rifle barrels. What I do not know is how much accuracy degradation can happen in pistols. With rifles it can be very obvious, but I am uncertain about handguns.

Generally speaking the jist of the video below in regards to cleaning and 'over cleaning' is 'it depends', particularly on how much and what method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCBLQXawK8E

Pistol barrels are cleaned by/with pistol bullets.

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Schuemann Barrels POB 248 Bingen, WA 98672 (509) 493-3514 www.schuemann.com

Cleaning

Probably the hardest task when cleaning your gun is deciding about cleaning the barrel chamber and bore. The primary problem is a lack of well documented information. An additional problem results because the steel which has been most commonly used for pistol barrels has some characteristics which complicate the decision. A detailed explanation of some of the characteristics of the 416 stainless steel used to make custom and replacement pistol barrels can be found in the "steel facts" section of the website.

Precision Shooting Magazine, December,'93,"Rifle Barrel Cleaning Materials and Barrel Corrosion", by Jim Borden, presented information about the etching of 416 barrel surfaces by various chemicals.

"... doing inspections of a number of rifle barrels with a very high quality borescope over the past two years has shown that a number of shooters are doing significant damage to their very expensive Stainless Steel barrels..." "illustrate the impact that improper use of some cleaning materials and methods can have on barrel steel. The barrel in the picture had somewhere between 150 and 350 rounds through it when it was retired -it quit shooting well and was very difficult to pass a patch through. Note the gross pitting and cracking evident on the surface of the barrel..."

"...to provide some basic information on stainless steel and some of the materials and conditions that adversely affect the corrosion rate of 416SS..."

Most of the chemicals Jim Borden listed, many of which are used in commercial barrel cleaning compounds, etched the surface away at rates between 0.020 and 0.050 inches per year. We at Schuemann Barrels regard a barrel to have been substantially worn out when the bore radius is enlarged by 0.0005 inches (a bore diameter increase of 0.001 inch). Therefore, exposure to some of these bore cleaner chemicals for about 4 days would eat away the bore as much as would have resulted from wearing out the bore by firing tens of thousands of rounds through the barrel.

"... if the mixtures result in a more agressive corrosion condition -two particular areas to be pursued are the mixing of Sweet's and Shooter's Choice MC#7, and the mixing of some of the chlorinated aerosols (used to dry out chambers by some shooters) with moisture and some of the cleaning compounds." Here Jim is specifically worried about using any of the TriChloro solvents, such as gun cleaner or carburetor cleaner, in combination with humidity, and/or barrel cleaning compounds.

Precision Shooting Magazine, May,'94,"A Closer Look at Bore Corrosion", by Mark D Stouse, presented a detailed look at 416 stainless surfaces and their corrosion susceptability. He showed high magnification photos of 416 surfaces and discussed how the inherent roughness of the barrel surface and the presence of lead or copper and powder residues helps degrade the meager ability of the 416 stainless surface to resist corrosion.

Precision Shooting Magazine, Editorial, December,'97, referencing an article in American Single Shot Rifle Association News by Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe. "... There is a warning on the label of Shooter's Choice MC#7 bore cleaner that it should not be mixed with other bore cleaners... Mixing solvents that contain 111 Tricloroethane with Shooter's Choice is also bad news!... Most American barrel makers hesitate to recommend Sweets as a regular bore cleaner because experience seems to show that barrels last longer with other petro-chemical based bore cleaners like Hoppes No. 9 or Shooter's Choice. Ammonia is present in bore cleaners like Hoppes No. 9 in the form of ammonia oleate..."

Precision Shooting Magazine, January,'98, letters to the editor, the first from Michael Anzalone pertaining to cleaning barrels used with moly coated bullets. "... We're talking about 4-5 inch vertical spread here (at 100 yards). Anyway, after cleaning with Shooter's Choice, the same thing happened again. So, a light went on in my head, and I realized I was removing all or most of the moly with Shooter's Choice. A call to Berger Bullets provided the following information: Clean only with Kroil and a small amount of JB bore compound. Anything else removes the moly..."

January,'98, a second letter to the editor, this one from Walt Berger (the individual referenced above -Wil) pertaining to the lifetime of a bench rest barrel which had only moly coated bullets shot through it. "... I now have better than 4,000 rounds through my moly-bullet-only barrel, and I won ... at the NBRSA Nationals ... and it still looks good through the bore scope." (this is somewhat greater than the normal lifetime for such a barrel -Wil)

Precision Shooting Magazine February,'98, letters to the editor, the first from Glen Fryxell, PhD, who is a chemist. He starts out quoting from an earlier article, and then offers comments of his own, ""... mixing (ammonia) with solvents that contain 1,1,1-trichlorethane... is also bad news!" This is excellent advise and should be bold-faced, underlined, and extended to include any chlorinated solvent (TCE, carbon tetrachloride, etc.). Ammonia reacts with chlorinated solvents to form ammonium chloride salts. Ammonium salts are hygroscopic (absorb water from humid atmosphere), and the chloride ion is one of the most corrosive species around as far as steel is concerned. This combination will corrode any steel surface, stainless or otherwise. The take home lesson here is, "Don't mix cleaning solvents." (Personally, I won't allow anything than has chlorine in it anywhere near my barrels for this reason)."

February,'98, a second letter to the editor, this one from Greg Bowman, pertaining to corrosion and solvents. "... In the absence of detailed information on the makeup of the various bore cleaners, good advice may be: 1) Do not mix (or use in tandem) bore cleaners of different manufacture..."

Certainly DO NOT ever use a stainless steel brush to clean out a barrel. The stainless bristles are much harder than the steel bore and the result will be to create deep scratches in the bore surface. When we use our IPSC pistols like sub-guns, as we often do, we apparently can raise the bore surface temperature up to the annealing range, based on the color I have seen on some barrel bore surfaces. Therefore, the bore surface of our barrels likely has been preferentially annealed, and could be quite a bit softer than the barrel outer surface would test. Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which are as hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel. Any scratching of the bore surface will naturally lead to increased bore surface wear, leading, and coppering. My recommendation would be to never use any kind of a bore brush to clean a 416 stainless steel pistol barrel, especially if it has been exposed to strings of rapid fire.

I've been watching the knowledge about 416 stainless barrel cleaning grow over the last few years. Unfortunately, I am not aware of the new information spreading outside of the bench rest rifle world. Hopefully, these short segments of some of the published information will help.

One possibility is that the contribution of the millions of microscopic deep grooves in the barrel bore, created by the possible melting away of the sulphur compounds, which were originally a part of the 416 steel barrel, in enhancing corrosion of the bore may be considerable. On the other hand, studies of surface wear often show that the sulphur in steel migrates to the surface where it reduces wear and friction. My "feeling" is that the grooves are likely capable of holding liquid cleaning chemicals, or their residual component chemicals, for long periods of time, and no amount of wiping or rinsing is going to get all the chemicals out of the grooves. The chemical's persistence would be enhanced if the microgrooves are also packed full of propellant and bullet residues, thereby sealing the chemicals into the grooves. These residual chemicals could be slowly eating away the walls of the grooves, especially at the higher temperatures generated when we are shooting. The consequences of such corrosion would not be apparent until the grooves reached some critical size, and then the rate of gas erosion of the bore would increase markedly, shortening the life of the barrel. Some references I have read in the past, that I did not save, indicated significant bore damage apparently had been caused by using one bore cleaner one year and switching to a different cleaner the following year. If the bore's microscopic grooves are capable of holding cleaning solvent residues for long periods of time such damage might well be plausible.

I'd initially been excited about the molydenum disulphide powder coating technology which has been introduced into the shooting sports. Initially it seems to be reducing bore wear, reducing bullet friction, reducing barrel heating, and reducing peak pressures, were all pluses. Seldom does a new idea produce only pluses. Possible liabilities are documented elsewhere in the web site. My thought is that,in this case. The millions of microscopic grooves in 416 stainless barrels are likely a plus where moly disulphide is concerned.

The moly disulphide will likely be packed into the grooves which might both anchor the moly disulphide, and also thereby reduce the erosion of the bore by preventing the propellant gas from eating away at the otherwise exposed edges and surfaces of the grooves. The bench rest shooters, to whom clean bores historically have been accorded the status of a religion, are gradually ceasing to clean the bores of their barrels which are used exclusively with moly coated bullets. This both proves the effectiveness of the moly coating and should allow everyone to stop cleaning the bores of their barrels. But, the precision rifle shooters seldom shoot more than a few thousand rounds through their guns before their barrel loses accuracy. We shoot many tens of times more rounds through our guns and that may be important. In precision rifle shooting the mild polishing action of the moly disulphide, which is beneficial to precision rifles, will wear out our barrels prematurely.

My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...

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Originally Posted by Dan Lehr

... the only thing we did to the rifles was run a patch through the barrel and lube.

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As JohnO posts, Schuemann barrels used to have that recommendation on their site, no scrubbing with a brush, just a patch and oil down the barrel. I'm glad JohnO was able to post it since I haven't been able to locate it recently.

I'd like to hear Bill Wilson's take on this.

Based on my experience and observations, I don’t think a dirty pistol barrel affects accuracy. There are barrel manufacturers who support this position. After almost 30 years of competition shooting, I agree.

Two examples. I have one Glock that is my competition/ training gun. It has a storm lake barrel with close to 300,000 rounds down the pipe. No matter the round count the accuracy remained consistent. The best it got was a wet patch followed by a dry patch on occasion.

I have a buddy who took the shooting world by surprise. He won the world shoot off with a basic limited gun vs race guns. He became a top rated shooter and won bianchi matches. He had a 1050 mounted in his RV. He wasn’t much for cleaning guns. He stopped by our 1911 smith, who is a close buddy. The smith disassembled the gun to clean and lube. He hands me the barrel. The gun was built on an STI frame. I don’t remember who’s barrel was in the gun. I looked down the barrel and it looked like a smooth bore. I thought it was shot out. The shooter said he had not had any less accuracy. The smith said the barrel was fine, it could use a cleaning. The lands and grooves were filled with lead.

I used a brush and solvent and then used an outers. I started at 3pm. At 1am I was still getting lead out with the outers. After cleaning I asked the shooter if the gun was more accurate after we cleaned the barrel. He said he didn’t notice much difference. Mind you, this was a guy I personally saw out shoot a random rest. In my shooting circle, we still talk about it and shake our heads.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by ssc45

I looked down the barrel and it looked like a smooth bore. I thought it was shot out. The shooter said he had not had any less accuracy. The smith said the barrel was fine, it could use a cleaning. The lands and grooves were filled with lead.

I used a brush and solvent and then used an outers. I started at 3pm. At 1am I was still getting lead out with the outers. After cleaning I asked the shooter if the gun was more accurate after we cleaned the barrel. He said he didn’t notice much difference. Mind you, this was a guy I personally saw out shoot a random rest. In my shooting circle, we still talk about it and shake our heads.

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I just spray it with Deep Creep and rip a Boresnake through every thousand rounds or so. I was gonna say I'm not good enough to tell if it makes a difference...but maybe I'm so good I can't tell a difference. :cool:

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Originally Posted by ssc45

Based on my experience and observations, I don’t think a dirty pistol barrel affects accuracy. There are barrel manufacturers who support this position. After almost 30 years of competition shooting, I agree.

Two examples. I have one Glock that is my competition/ training gun. It has a storm lake barrel with close to 300,000 rounds down the pipe. No matter the round count the accuracy remained consistent. The best it got was a wet patch followed by a dry patch on occasion.

I have a buddy who took the shooting world by surprise. He won the world shoot off with a basic limited gun vs race guns. He became a top rated shooter and won bianchi matches. He had a 1050 mounted in his RV. He wasn’t much for cleaning guns. He stopped by our 1911 smith, who is a close buddy. The smith disassembled the gun to clean and lube. He hands me the barrel. The gun was built on an STI frame. I don’t remember who’s barrel was in the gun. I looked down the barrel and it looked like a smooth bore. I thought it was shot out. The shooter said he had not had any less accuracy. The smith said the barrel was fine, it could use a cleaning. The lands and grooves were filled with lead.

I used a brush and solvent and then used an outers. I started at 3pm. At 1am I was still getting lead out with the outers. After cleaning I asked the shooter if the gun was more accurate after we cleaned the barrel. He said he didn’t notice much difference. Mind you, this was a guy I personally saw out shoot a random rest. In my shooting circle, we still talk about it and shake our heads.

Cheers, Steve

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I don't know how to edit my post. I do need to make one correction. It was the smith who out shot the RR, not the shooter.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by alamo5000

Recently I did some changes to my carry gun (365XL) which also included swapping out the factory barrel for an after market one. For a while now I have been thinking "Man, I might just be rusty or something!" because I was not having a ton of accuracy to my liking out of that gun. I pop in a new barrel though and wow. 15 yards I was tagging a 4" square and had SUBSTANTIALLY better groupings/consistency. For a small carry gun this (to me) is pretty good.

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One of the key differences between a semi-auto pistol and a precision rifle is that the barrel on the precision rifle doesn't move.

In a Browning-style semi auto the barrel moves as part of the cycling of the gun. That movement is dictated by a host of factors including the interaction of the muzzle of the barrel in the hole in the slide, the interaction of the area on top of the barrel where it meets the slide, and the interaction of the bottom lugs of the barrel with the locking block, and the spring pressure from the recoil spring. For a semi-auto pistol to be consistently accurate you need the barrel and slide to stay "locked" together until the bullet has left the barrel, only unlocking after the bullet is well clear. Then it needs to "lock" up again consistently.

You can get a barrel that "locks up" so well with the slide that the pistol will not function. So there is a balance to be reached in setting the system up. Manufacturers will almost always side with reliable function...and generously on that side. Meaning they will happily err on the side of a gun that patterns rather than one that doesn't work because the ratio of shooters who are skilled enough to actually notice an inaccurate pistol is likely far smaller than 1:100.

The most likely reason you are seeing improved accuracy with the aftermarket barrel is that it stays "locked" in the slide longer and "locks" up more consistently with the slide from shot to shot. Adding a bit of material in the right places can produce a significantly higher level of accuracy. Without hand-fitting it's still kind of a crap shoot because the aftermarket barrel manufacturer doesn't know the variations in clearances and tolerances that the factory accepts for the pistol in question, so they are basically reverse engineering a spec based off of what they can deduce from working with manufactured specimens.

The muzzle crown of a barrel can also significantly impact accuracy (which is why higher end barrels tend to have recessed crowns, to protect that) and if there's a defect you may or may not be able to see it with the naked eye. But if you didn't drop the gun or it hasn't experienced any significant impact to the muzzle then lockup is the most likely reason why there is an accuracy difference.

Punching the bore on a pistol is rarely necessary. Pistol projectiles move much slower than rifle projectiles which means that you generally don't have the same copper fouling potential that you see with rifles. If you are shooting an accurate 5.56 rifle with a good barrel and accurate ammunition, you will hit some point where your accuracy starts to suffer and you need to give it a thorough cleaning IF you are trying to maintain something like true sub-MOA accuracy. Then after cleaning you have to foul the gun back in with the ammunition you are using for a series of shots to get it back to the level of accuracy it is capable of.

If you are shooting a precision rifle with a really fast-moving projectile then you will have only a certain round count where that barrel is able to maintain the level of accuracy that makes it a precision rifle. (.5 MOA, etc) That doesn't tend to happen with pistols.

In fact, during his 1911 test Todd shot enough "non-toxic" ammunition through his test gun that it destroyed a section of the barrel's rifling...without any noticeable decrease in the pistol's accuracy.

My one exception to the "you don't need to clean your pistol barrel" rule is if you are using "non-toxic" ammo, in which case you should clean the barrel frequently to get the remnants of those primers out of there as they tend to really accelerate actual barrel wear that isn't really a concern with more conventional ammunition.

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Originally Posted by camsdaddy

Im curious about this. I have never thought about over cleaning. I dont think Im in danger. I run a pitch here and there through my Glocks. On my revolvers I clean them a little more often because Im shooting reloads and have shot lead.

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Soft lead projectiles can definitely "lead" a barrel impacting accuracy. Hard cast lead with higher levels of antimony and jacketed bullets cut down on this tremendously.

The same is true of shotguns. Most of what we shoot in shotguns is soft lead being shoved down the bore with plastic. Both leave deposits in the barrel that will, when sufficiently built up, eventually impact how the gun patterns. Those deposits in shotgun barrels can also give corrosive action a place to hide so it's good to clean shotgun barrels more frequently to prevent pitting from forming in the barrel.

For your typical semi-auto pistol fed a diet of jacketed ammunition, punch the bore with a brass brush maybe once a year. And even that can be seen as overkill.

One instructor I respect mentioned a couple of Bennie Coolie classes where the firing schedule was such that his AR needed to be cleaned to restore accuracy. I have been to a couple of high round count classes with lots of close in burn 'em down drills and not seen that. I remember Pat Rogers having a gun he loaned out at classes that took like 28k rounds without a cleaning., and without a problem.

I have never had issues "neglecting" my pistols. I mixed up a batch of "Ed's Red" a while back and occasionally use it to soak parts that don't have tritium lamps glued into them. Most of the time a Boresnake and brake cleaner do the trick. If you go back through TLG's blogs at pistol-training.com you can see the number of rounds he put through his training guns before cleaning. It was eye opening to me...

I am also convinced that solvents act like, well, solvents, and dissolve the stuff we clean out of guns, making them more bioavailable when inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Even with brake cleaner and boresnakes I rear nitrile gloves, goggles, and usually a mask...

I have also learned the hard way with a Glock or two, both mine and shooters I am/was responsible for that too much detail stripping can cause accelerated wear that can reduce reliability, as the plastic holes change dimensions from different plastic and metal pins being pushed in and out, as well as the normally metal tools used interact with plastic parts.

1k rounds is when I start thinking about wiping my guns out, and even then it is usually quick and dirty, non-chloronated brake cleaner, a rag, a boresnake, and maybe a few cotton swabs. Filed strip, spray, and wipe. Lubricate properly. Reassemble and put a mag through it to make sure everything is back together properly and working right. I do clean optic and light lenses much, much more frequently.

pat

Any thought's on pistol barrel's that see a lot of WC / LSWC ?
Should lead removal be a concern, products and process's suggested,
and at what intervals? Or just run an occasional patch and shoot on,
not worrying about lead build up.

It's going to depend on how much lead is being deposited. With soft lead projectiles you'll see noticeable buildup in the bore.

You can use a Lewis de-leader.

I've had decent luck with copper sponge wrapped around a brass brush in a barrel that I've soaked in Kroil. I use stainless sponge in shotgun barrels to do de-leading.

When I competed with a rifle I typically cleaned my rifle at the end of the season, fouled it in at the beginning of the next season and left it at that.

With handguns, the vast majority of the rounds fired are polymer coated cast bullets. I clean the bore of my training gun every 5k rounds, or so. Then, that consists of scrubbing the barrel with a bronze brush wrapped with copper Chore Boy, followed by a single wet patch. It all takes less than five minutes. If I was shooting jacketed rounds I probably wouldn't bother with that. I clean my carry gun every time I shoot it, just for reasons. When I was shooting 50 yard bullseye I was a bit more serious about it, since swaged lead wadcutters tend to be filthy. But, standard shooting from 25 yards in just doesn't matter. As already mentioned, the closer tolerances of the match barrel probably account for any difference you're seeing.

I work with an individual who insists on cleaning his guns to a level of surgical cleanliness every he shoots them, whether it's one round or a thousand. When I described my cleaning routine I thought he was going to go apoplectic.

I have had 100% reliable pistols become unreliable when not cleaned, and then become 100% reliable again after a good cleaning. In the case of my series 1 Kimber 5” .45, it will become unreliable after approximately 500 rounds without cleaning.

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Originally Posted by TCinVA

It's going to depend on how much lead is being deposited. With soft lead projectiles you'll see noticeable buildup in the bore.

You can use a Lewis de-leader.

I've had decent luck with copper sponge wrapped around a brass brush in a barrel that I've soaked in Kroil. I use stainless sponge in shotgun barrels to do de-leading.

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This is what I've been doing but with #9, I've read about Kroil over the year's, I'll give give it a try, maybe it'll work better for lead removal,
just don't want to harm the bore's.

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Originally Posted by JohnO

Pistol barrels are cleaned by/with pistol bullets.

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I would like to add that many if not all of the long series of articles quoted within JohnO's post are from Precision Shooting, a magazine produced during the time period we had a recent forum discussion about, wherein many members here were basically saying that all publications from the period were worthless drivel. 🙂

Yours Truly was one of the dissenters in said thread, and is selfishly using this post, and the fact that he mentioned PS specifically in said thread, to bask in his own glory and exceptional humility.

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Originally Posted by BillSWPA

I have had 100% reliable pistols become unreliable when not cleaned, and then become 100% reliable again after a good cleaning. In the case of my series 1 Kimber 5” .45, it will become unreliable after approximately 500 rounds without cleaning.

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So we need to more carefully define "cleaning".

When a pistol is fired, there is a cloud of burning gas that expands from every area of the pistol that isn't air tight:

https://youtu.be/7y9apnbI6GA

This hot gas carries in it an assortment of suspended particulate that will condense and accumulate on working parts of the pistol. This residue, for lack of a better term, is made up of a number of unpleasant compounds and large amounts of carbon. This residue will built up in critical working areas of the firearm and can potentially negatively impact function.

Proper lubrication goes a long way to preventing the residue of firing from hindering the reliable function of the pistol. Proper lubrication will encapsulate the particulates of concern and flow them away from the critical working areas of the gun, keeping it running. One of the things your motor oil does is carry contaminants and particulate away from critical working surfaces. These are hopefully deposited inside the oil filter where they are rendered harmless and the oil itself is free to recirculate through the system and pick up more. This cycle repeats and it's why (also combined with chemical changes) the oil eventually goes from an amber color to black. Pistols are not closed systems so the lubricant carries particulates away from critical working areas and stays gone. This is why we need to reapply lubrication to our pistols. Lube evaporates, burns off, and runs away thus it must be reapplied to allow the gun to continue to function. If one were to examine the aforementioned rifle that Pat Rogers never cleaned they would find it crusted and filthy in lots of areas...but not in the areas that were critical to function because Pat lubricated the gun.

The bore of the handgun is not where any of this is taking place. The chamber can potentially impact function if there is some sort of residue buildup that impacts feeding or extraction. That tends to be fairly uncommon with modern factory ammunition.

If properly lubricated, most pistols will function into the tens of thousands of rounds without cleaning. The lube will flow the undesirable stuff away from critical working parts. The residue may still be in the gun, but not accumulated in areas where it will diminish function. Todd's guns would get to the point where handling them would leave your hands black. His measure for when it was time to clean was generally when carrying the gun started to stain his clothes. Removing all that crud was quite a chore once it had built up that much, but it wasn't necessary to remove it to keep the gun running.

At some point you do get enough buildup of crud to impact the function of the gun. On semi-autos the area under the extractor can accumulate enough buildup to prevent the extractor from really grabbing a good hold on the cartridge rim. That tends to be a difficult area to clean or for solvent to really do a good job of cleaning out. Most every other part of the gun can be kept running by literally spraying the frame and the slide down with an aerosol solvent and letting it drip and dry. Then reapply some lubricant and keep shooting.

Using decent quality FMJ ammunition, you could conceivably shoot a handgun until you have broken enough major parts to deadline the gun and never run a brush through the bore.

You can fire most pistols tens of thousands of rounds without taking the gun apart to clean it (remove the aforementioned firing residue) and the gun will still function reliably IF you properly lubricate the gun for that purpose.

What you can't do is shoot a dry, dirty gun very much before it stops working properly.

What we probably should focus on cleaning more than the bore of pistol barrels that shoot FMJ ammo is the magazines. Disassembling them and running a blue shop towel with some solvent on it to get rid of the carbon buildup and the accumulated dirt, sand, pocket lint, dead skin, hair, and other nastiness that collects there is going to go a long way to keeping the magazine running like it should.

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Originally Posted by TCinVA

What we probably should focus on cleaning more than the bore of pistol barrels that shoot FMJ ammo is the magazines. Disassembling them and running a blue shop towel with some solvent on it to get rid of the carbon buildup and the accumulated dirt, sand, pocket lint, dead skin, hair, and other nastiness that collects there is going to go a long way to keeping the magazine running like it should.

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Absolutely 100% agree. I am amazed at the number of "gun guys" who have never cleaned their mags, nor even knew they should clean them, nor even know how to clean them. I have seen so many magazine related stoppages that I consider them to be a weak link that requires constant maintenance. Perhaps it is my competition background, where we clean mags every time they hit the dirt (1911's). I've seen baseplates pop off, followers that turned sideways, weak springs, gunk, lint, deodorant flakes etc cause the mag to stop feeding bullets. I have worn out glock mag bodies. I had 2 that the liner via the spine, where the metal is pressed with alternating tabs have popped out, causing them to catch on the follower. Para mags were the most temperamental. Glock mags seemed to be the most forgiving. I have seen single stack 1911 mags where the tac welded mag plate broke away from the mag body.

I clean mags by disassembling, inspecting and push a silicon rag through the body with a screwdriver. I advocate always carrying at least one spare mag when packing. The main reason is due to malfunction issues. In my mind, to keep a gun running, I concentrate on ammo, mags, extractor and lube. What good is accuracy if your gun doesn't run?

YMMV Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by ssc45

Absolutely 100% agree. I am amazed at the number of "gun guys" who have never cleaned their mags, nor even knew they should clean them, nor even know how to clean them. I have seen so many magazine related stoppages that I consider them to be a weak link that requires constant maintenance. Perhaps it is my competition background, where we clean mags every time they hit the dirt (1911's). I've seen baseplates pop off, followers that turned sideways, weak springs, gunk, lint, deodorant flakes etc cause the mag to stop feeding bullets. I have worn out glock mag bodies. I had 2 that the liner via the spine, where the metal is pressed with alternating tabs have popped out, causing them to catch on the follower. Para mags were the most temperamental. Glock mags seemed to be the most forgiving. I have seen single stack 1911 mags where the tac welded mag plate broke away from the mag body.

I clean mags by disassembling, inspecting and push a silicon rag through the body with a screwdriver. I advocate always carrying at least one spare mag when packing. The main reason is due to malfunction issues. In my mind, to keep a gun running, I concentrate on ammo, mags, extractor and lube. What good is accuracy if your gun doesn't run?

YMMV Cheers, Steve

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I clean mags far more often than guns. I haven't bought welded floorplate 1911 mags for years because of weld failures and they're a hassle to clean. A shotgun bore mop is ideal for cleaning the inside of mag tubes.

Small stainless brush and a can of carburetor cleaner..

I can’t speak to the 365 platform, which was the subject of the OP. I can speak about Glock pistols, the AR platform in semi-auto from personal use, revolvers to a limited extent and 1911 pistols as a casual competitor years ago. No recent and in depth experience with shotguns, but the thread started with handguns.
From a Glock armorer perspective, the factory recommends an annual detail strip, cleaning and inspection by someone certified.The individual operator can field strip and clean after every shooting session, but in my experience that isn’t always necessary. It’s also contextual. Fall or jump into salt water and I would do a detail strip as soon as possible. But that’s exceptional.
@TCinVA has very good points about magazines and cleaning/lubing critical areas like the extractor and rails. My only contribution if I may, would be to recommend not to let oil/lube sit in the striker channel for a long period of time(the factory specifically advises against oiling there).
I’ve seen revolvers that had decades of lube in the lock work and wouldn’t work smoothly until cleaned. Cooper once noted a 1911 trigger “froze” because of gunk in the channels for the trigger stirrup. A brush and a little solvent got the thing running again. Bill Rogers used to soak his school’s training pistols with spray lube, but those were run weekly and cleaned annually as I recall. I’ve seen a few early generation Glocks which were overlubed, so to speak, and then sat for years. The lube thickened up it seemed and the pistol would exhibit light strikes. So a little tlc on an annual basis is what I like to do with my personal guns, or semi-annually (6 months) if it’s a training gun-like 5-10,000 rounds in that time. YMMV, of course. On pistol barrel, assuming decent ammo, punch a wet brush through the chamber all the way through every 3-6 months, followed by a clean patch.

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Originally Posted by 1Rangemaster

I’ve seen revolvers that had decades of lube in the lock work and wouldn’t work smoothly until cleaned. Cooper once noted a 1911 trigger “froze” because of gunk in the channels for the trigger stirrup.

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This is true...but it's happened mostly because the lubricants used were terrible. Lots of them get gummy or leave behind sticky residues when they evaporate/migrate/burn off. Worse yet, a lot of gun owners have used various grease products not realizing that grease is just oil mixed in a binder and the oil does oil things (evaporates, migrates, burns off) and leaves the binder behind where it can hold grit and contaminants instead of anything that lubes. I looked at an old production Python a few months ago priced at $5,000 on the shelf. I was checking function and pressed the trigger only to watch the hammer fall in slow motion...most likely because the internals of that revolver are gummed up with some shit quality lube that will require a good soak in mineral spirits and some scrubbing to get loose.

Using a good quality oil is crucial to keeping that kind of problem from occurring. Slip 2000 does a good job of remaining oil and not getting gummy. I use Amsoil's gun oil because I already order their vehicle maintenance products so it's an easy add on and it doesn't change viscosity when the gun gets hot or when the temps get really cold. Nor does it leave behind any gummy or hard residues. And when it goes away, you can tell because the area looks dry...indication to apply more lube.

If you stay away from bad products (rem oil, hoppe's gun oil...pretty much anything your grandpa bought to lubricate guns) and gimmick products (anything that tells you to season your gun parts like an iron skillet) and just apply the decent lube (Slip 2000...you don't need the EWP version) and don't use grease, then you aren't likely to get the gummy, sticky buildup that hinders function.

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Originally Posted by D-der

Any thought's on pistol barrel's that see a lot of WC / LSWC ?
Should lead removal be a concern, products and process's suggested,
and at what intervals? Or just run an occasional patch and shoot on,
not worrying about lead build up.

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I knew I should have taken pics of the last 1911 I bought used before I cleaned it. The gun had everything wrong with it, I knew it was troubled when I saw it on the table at the gun show, but SA Operator Range Officers are in very short supply right now and I figured I could fix it as long as the frame and slide were okay. This one was packed with bullet lube and powder residue around the barrel, and into the extractor. "Filthy" is too kind of a word to describe it, I was digging bullet lube and gunk out of the slide with a screwdriver. I lowballed the guy really hard because of the condition and he took my offer, so I know it probably wasn't functional. The barrel was plated almost black with lead and bullet lube, the extractor was packed with gunk, and I honestly don't believe the slide had ever been off the frame since the factory.

It was difficult to get the slide off and I ended up tapping it off with a rawhide mallet. Amazingly enough nothing was broken, filthy yes, but everything was salvageable. I ended up borrowing a friends ultrasonic cleaner because it didn't come clean with a brush and a bunch of Eds Red. After three cycles on the bare frame and slide I went back to the brush and ER, using a worn out bore brush to clean the firing pin tunnel and the extractor tunnel. The grips didn't want to come off and I only got them off because they were torx and the bushings came out of the frame with them. I discovered that the last guy must have had a problem with the grips coming loose and loctited the screws in the grip panels themselves. Yeah, that sort of project.

To finish my novel here, I have the slide reassembled with a new extractor and firing pin stop, a new firing pin spring, and the guns getting all new springs, an EGW ambi-safety, I dug a new STI S7 sear out of my parts box to replace the MIM sear, and I'll finally use my Apex hammer after having it sit idle for several years. I also ordered a steel hammer strut to replace MIM as well. I think I'll order a new slide release to replace the MIM piece that I missed originally. What I started to say before my little rant here is that yes, cast bullet guns are likely to need more cleaning and this one is fated to still be a cast bullet gun as well. On the bright side, I finally got my Operator/Range Officer, and even with the parts it was less than I could have bought a used gun off GunBroker. I'll build up a little more money and start looking for my next 1911 which hopefully will be an MCOP.

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Originally Posted by D-der

Any thought's on pistol barrel's that see a lot of WC / LSWC ?
Should lead removal be a concern, products and process's suggested,
and at what intervals? Or just run an occasional patch and shoot on,
not worrying about lead build up.

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In a properly dimensioned revolver and using the correct level of bullet and lube hardness, leading will be minimal to almost nonexistent. I did a class with my M67 and went through >700 rounds in a day and a half. The load was Zero 158-grain swaged LRNs and Titegroup at +P pressure. Those bullets are pretty soft, and the lube they use is soft and sticky. The night after the first day I wiped down the outside of the gun and cleaned the residue out of the cylinder, and when I checked the bore it was clear of obvious leading. The bore was still clear when I finished the class, though it took a couple of hours with 0000 steel wool and elbow grease to get the black residue off the outside of the cylinder and the area around the frame window.

IME, autoloaders lead due to excessive bullet hardness and/or incorrect bullet size. The typical "hardcast" alloy used by commercial bullet casters works great at magnum revolver pressure but can lead at .45 ACP pressure levels if everything's not perfect. 9x19 barrels can be as large as .358, so using the normal size of .356 can cause leading. (Berettas are notorious for oversize groove dimensions.) The use of a Lee factory crimp die (FCD) often resizes a lead bullet inside the case and can also cause leading.

For lead bullets, I won't use traditional lubed bullets anymore. The coating available from most bullet companies covers a multitude of sins, including lead exposure and smoke - that load with Zero bullets and Titegroup was almost black powder-level smoky, though it shot well. I haven't seen leading in either my revolvers or my autoloaders since switching to coated bullets.

Recently cleaned my J frame, resulting in a shifted group. Prior to cleaning, I could hold a 4" group, often times less at 25 yards. I ran some DEWC trough it, producing a nice gray haze over the gun, and some build up around the forcing cone. At this point the gun was still shooting fine, but was making me dirty. I generally don't clean guns until they make me dirty.
Post cleaning, the gun now groups to the 4 o'clock position by 5". And yes it's the gun, not me. Right handed shooter, zero flinch, or pre ignition push confirmed by the irons and LG-405, when I hit an empty.
Talk about frustrating, WWB 130gr printed to the same POI as my carry ammo. Not it (WWB) prints to the low right, and I have exactly 2 cylinders of carry ammo.

Okay, another used gun story:). Long ago I bought a used 686 Smiff from a private owner. It locked up nice and tight, and the bore was mirror bright. It also shot ten yard patterns of about four inches and showed flattened primers, even with lighter loads. I decided to clean it a bit and the barrel was sparkling bright again. I also decided to range rod the gun to check cylinder alignment. The first problem was that my match spec range rod "spud" wouldn't even enter the barrel. Nope, it wasn't going to happen. I put bright light to the bore and looked again, perfectly sharp, bright lands an grooves, and some leading at the forcing cone. So I figured I'd go high-tech and run my Outers Foul-Out in the bore (remember them?).

I had worked out a system of running the Foul-Out rod through a rubber plug with a hole in it that was a tight fit to the bore at the muzzle. The rod would expend the full length of the bore and was really neat for cleaning leaded forcing cones. The Revolver was clamped muzzle down in rubber vise jaws. So I set it up, filled it with solution, and fired 'er up. I figured that little dab of lead wouldn't take more than an hour at best. I was wrong. The Foul-Out worked on a sort of reverse plating procedure, and an hour passed. Then another hour. Curious, it must have been worse than I thought. After the third hour passed the Foul-Out signaled a fault. I disconnected everything and poured the solution out to find the fault. There was a lot of loose lead in the bore, and it grounded out the Foul-Out rod. So I ran a patch through the bore and pushed out a whole lot of lead.

Long story short- the barrel was heavily coated with lead, and the last guy probably fired a few jackets rounds down the bore to "blow the lead out". The 686 had many layers of lead "ironed" to the bore, showing perfect rifling and detail. It took four cycles for the Foul-Out to get it all out. The bore was actually slightly frosted, but the next range trip with jacketed ammo ironed that out. You might think I'm anti-cast bullet from my two stories, but the exact opposite is true, I cast probably 99% of all the handgun bullets I shoot, and I rarely experience any sort of leading anymore.