Ban-Compliant Defensive Rifles in the 2020s

This is a topic I've already more or less come to conclusions on regarding handguns, but with rifles it might be more interesting. I've been thinking about what I would pick up as a main "go-to" rifle if suddenly we couldn't get all the "evil" rifles we typically would pick. That is, mostly non-detachable mag semi autos, bolt actions, or lever actions. The first two that came to mind in the autoloader camp are the M1 Garand and SKS (with fixed 10rd mag), and maybe an M1 Carbine if we're generous with what might be imposed if those who wish to pass an AWB some day get their way (or the ATF "redefines" things until it may as well be an AWB).

The M1 Garand is obviously a classic choice, though I wonder if it would have the reliability and durability that our standards require today. Would an M1 Garand be able to make it through a typical high-volume weekend carbine course given adequate cleaning/greasing/maintenance? Yes, it's long and heavy, but in this context I'm mainly talking about reliability.

Would the reliability of a good bolt action (old military or new, such as the Tikka T3x Arctic, or some modern Scout Rifle) be more suited to what one should require of a firearm they would trust their life to?

Same question kind of goes for the SKS as well. With the AR15, we have a pretty good idea from military testing how reliable they can be. I believe the US Army in 2009-ish established the baseline reliability for the M4A1 as being around 3,600 Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (this was before M855A1, from what I've seen reliability is less impressive with the A1). Todd Green used to say that he considered a firearm truly "long-term reliable" if it could average 2k rounds or more between stoppages. Could an SKS do that if it were adequately maintained and lubricated?

I started reading old threads, some going back to 2001-2002, from places like Tactical Forums where @DocGKR, Hilton Yam, and Pat Rogers used to hang out. There were some interesting conversations in there about ban-compliant rifles. Some of them mentioned were indeed the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Lee Enfield SMLE, and various lever actions. Twenty year old information, yes, but in 2021 I feel like it might be a worthwhile discussion. I'm interested in what might be the most reliable choice while still maintaining an adequate amount of fire power/speed of fire.

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Originally Posted by SwampDweller

This is a topic I've already more or less come to conclusions on regarding handguns, but with rifles it might be more interesting. I've been thinking about what I would pick up as a main "go-to" rifle if suddenly we couldn't get all the "evil" rifles we typically would pick. That is, mostly non-detachable mag semi autos, bolt actions, or lever actions. The first two that came to mind in the autoloader camp are the M1 Garand and SKS (with fixed 10rd mag), and maybe an M1 Carbine if we're generous with what might be imposed if those who wish to pass an AWB some day get their way (or the ATF "redefines" things until it may as well be an AWB).

The M1 Garand is obviously a classic choice, though I wonder if it would have the reliability and durability that our standards require today. Would an M1 Garand be able to make it through a typical high-volume weekend carbine course given adequate cleaning/greasing/maintenance? Yes, it's long and heavy, but in this context I'm mainly talking about reliability.

Would the reliability of a good bolt action (old military or new, such as the Tikka T3x Arctic, or some modern Scout Rifle) be more suited to what one should require of a firearm they would trust their life to?

Same question kind of goes for the SKS as well. With the AR15, we have a pretty good idea from military testing how reliable they can be. I believe the US Army in 2009-ish established the baseline reliability for the M4A1 as being around 3,600 Mean Rounds Between Stoppages. Todd Green used to say that he considered a firearm truly "reliable" if it could average 2k rounds between stoppages. Could an SKS do that if it were adequately maintained and lubricated?

I started reading old threads, some going back to 2001-2002, from places like Tactical Forums where @DocGKR, Hilton Yam, and Pat Rogers used to hang out. There were some interesting conversations in there about ban-compliant rifles. Some of them mentioned were indeed the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Lee Enfield SMLE, and various lever actions. Twenty year old information, yes, but in 2021 I feel like it might be a worthwhile discussion. I'm interested in what might be the most reliable choice while still maintaining an adequate amount of fire power/speed of fire.

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1) It’s a pointless exercise unless you know the specifics of the ban you are trying to be compliant with. Assuming something like a Garand would be compliant with a future ban because it was compliant with the 1994 ban is foolish. There is no guarantee of that.

2) Bolt guns and lever guns suck for close range fighting. In a the event of a ban on semi auto rifles, semi auto shotguns and pump shotguns (in that order) would be the most effective personal defense guns.

https://youtu.be/pC4Gqvd7T1s

https://youtu.be/6Alv5opx76Y

Keep in mind that Karl from Inrange (the guy running the bolt gun) is a akilled and talented shooter who actually trains with old gear. Performance only goes down from there.

Why worry about what may happen, when you can live in the real world instead?

A Garand is a nice gun, period, and if it stays within whatever imagined restrictions, fine- same with an SKS, or even one of those hideous Cali-AR sort of guns. It doesn't seem like there's really anything to explore.

Per earlier posts, anything semiauto ends up being preferable to anything that's not, and there's a lot of good work that can be done with slugs within certain ranges. Lever guns have certain capacity and rate-of-fire advantages if magazine-fed and semi-auto are off the table.

If you know what you're trying to accomplish, and within what parameters, then optimal choices get pretty narrow.

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Originally Posted by HCM

1) It’s a pointless exercise unless you know the specifics of the ban you are trying to be compliant with. Assuming something like a Garand would be compliant with a future ban because it was compliant with the 1994 ban is foolish. There is no guarantee of that.

2) Bolt guns and lever guns suck for close range fighting. In a the event of a ban on semi auto rifles, semi auto shotguns and pump shotguns (in that order) would be the most effective personal defense guns.

Keep in mind that Karl from Inrange (the guy running the bolt gun) is a akilled and talented shooter who actually trains with old gear. Performance only goes down from there.

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I was more going off of the AWB that has been proposed to Congress in 2020 which seems more or less consistent with what has been proposed in the past 5-6 years. That is, no evil features allowed at all if it can take a detachable mag.

I remember that vid about bolt actions being obsolete, it's a fair point. I guess I'm mostly wondering if these old semi auto rifles with non-detaching mags would be reliable enough to trust as a hard use weapon the way we trust our ARs/AKs/whatever

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Originally Posted by SwampDweller

I was more going off of the AWB that has been proposed to Congress in 2020 which seems more or less consistent with what has been proposed in the past 5-6 years. That is, no evil features allowed at all if it can take a detachable mag.

I remember that vid about bolt actions being obsolete, it's a fair point. I guess I'm mostly wondering if these old semi auto rifles with non-detaching mags would be reliable enough to trust as a hard use weapon the way we trust our ARs/AKs/whatever

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Durability is part materials and part design.

Even if the materials were adequate when new, WWII was 75 years ago.

Given your parameters a tube fed semi auto shotgun with a red dot is effective out to 100 yards with appropriate ammo.

Remington made that 870 pattern rifle in 5.56 that accepts AR mags, I think. That'd be a consideration. Another ban would spur new product development, so who knows what the "right" answer would be.

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by HCM

Durability is part materials and part design.

Even if the materials were adequate when new, WWII was 75 years ago.

Given your parameters a tube fed semi auto shotgun with a red dot is effective out to 100 yards with appropriate ammo.

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Good point. That basically applies to the SKS as well, most being over half a century old.

I had a 7600 in .35 Whelen- fun, but I only showed up with that gun for a single 3-gun match before being politely directed towards ARs. A 5.56mm version would be fun, but if I’m pumping, I’m pumping shotgun, else a lever or bolt if it’s just gotta be a manually operated rifle.

For self defense, the neutered AR & AK have a lot to offer, along with the various M1A & Mini (or Garand)
patterns before diving off into strange pump, lever, or bolt action worlds.

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Originally Posted by pangloss

Remington made that 870 pattern rifle in 5.56 that accepts AR mags, I think. That'd be a consideration. Another ban would spur new product development, so who knows what the "right" answer would be.

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

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The 7615P. Everyone I've talked to that has tried one says they suck. Fragile for it's intended use, and finicky.



I've had SKS', the "paratrooper" ones are pretty handy. But there just isn't any good way to put anything on the gun. I would pick up a another just because but I have long since given up on trying to put one into any kind of serious role only because there's no good way to update them. Unless Sage International started making their CVFS chassis for them or someone else made a decent chassis without a PG.


If I had to get some ban compliant stuff, first thing I'm getting is a Mini-14. After that either an M1a or, preferably, a "tanker" Garand in .308 that takes M1a mags. After that maybe a Fulton Armory M1 carbine. Then I'll start grabbing some lever actions and make some space cowboy blasters.

I’ve given this a little thought. I personally would be ok with a pair of lightweight, short bolt actions with 1-4x, one in 5.56 and one in 7.62. Currently I have Stevens 200s in this role. Is this optimal? Hell no - but I’m low speed high drag.

Somewhere around here are a couple of threads on practical fighting bolt guns that are pretty informative. Based on the premise that they are useful today, and likely one of the last guns to go given adverse legislation.

Building specific skill sets on those guns seems prudent. On my own to-do list:
Randy Cain's Practical Rifle course: https://guntactics.com/rifle.php
Larry Mudgett's Bolt Action Rifle course: http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/c...-rifle-course/

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Originally Posted by pangloss

Remington made that 870 pattern rifle in 5.56 that accepts AR mags, I think. That'd be a consideration. Another ban would spur new product development, so who knows what the "right" answer would be.

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If the left advances bans, they will also advance legislation which burdens manufacturers of ammunition and firearms. I don't expect product development to be well funded in a post-ban era. This isn't '94 2.0; this will tumble much faster.

As HCM says, we don't know what a ban would encompass. The original AWB was a failure for its supposed purpose because of existing guns and the production of new ARs that were compliant and second, the existence of guns like the Mini-14s. This has been clearly pointed out in the criminology research. Rampages occurred with 10 round mags.

Thus a competent (so to speak) AWB will take out all magazine fed semis. Would this actually occur? Probably not. Would the ban allow guns with 'fixed' mags like the Garands, SKS or the strange ARs that use a speed loader with a fixed 10 round mag?

So one proposes lever action, bolt guns, semi and pump shotguns, maybe 22 LR semis will survive. However, the countries that went for bans like Australia expanded them and expanded them and then went for the work arounds (like lever action shotguns).

BTW, if you decide to go bolt, pump, lever action for SD - you'd better train, train, train for competent use. I've seen folks run a bolt competently in an IDPA style carbine match. Basically, one shot per target and it's slow objectively even though the user was fast for the gun type. With levers, one guy just jammed and jammed. Of course there are competent folks with those guns and they did the work.

We are better off fighting the bans legislatively or judicially. That might be a lost cause in some states and Scotus is big unknown as to a decisive finding. I doubt the current Congress with either party in 'control' would do squat to protect gun rights. The Democrats might go for a ban but electoral fears might not let it truly come to fruition. Who is to know?

Want to be 'prepared' - get a Mini-14 and semi shotgun. You can always get a lever gun with that panic hits for $3500 or so.

By competent, I meant that the ban proposers actually knew firearms and were aware of work arounds, the problems of guns of equal efficacy being produced, the existing stocks of guns and proposed measures to take off of those out. No positive implication on my part. The things that go up crowd were not designing the bans.

About the 7615P, when I was looking into EBR opinion, I found that it was proposed for two reasons:

1. Trying to get a 223 rifle into police hands that was not an EBR, militarized appearing gun that was politically incorrect. Lots of city council discussion of evil guns that were military styled.

2. A claim that since officers had experience with pump guns, they could 'understand' a similarly operated rifle. I guess ARs were too complicated.

Mini-14s had the nice gun appearance also. Wood, you know (mine is black and stainless - evil). As an anecdote, meaning nothing, I was driving to Austin from SA on IH-35 and outside of Shertz and there were a zillion police cars on the road. Lots and lots of folks were running into the fields carrying Mini-14s (quite a few years ago). I thought, well if lots of folks are running around with long arms - perhaps I should keep driving!! Seems some escaped horror show guy ditched into the fields.

My personal solution, with no ban in place, is a Benelli M2. Two of them, actually, and, now that availability has returned, I may yet add a third Benelli, perhaps an M4, or the version of the Ethos that has Benelli’s top-tier corrosion-resistant finish. One of mine, at least, is due to get a Aimpoint, soon. The Comfort-Tech stock REALLY does help mitigate recoil. Why the shotgun? Well, see what HCM already typed. Plus, I toted personally-owned duty shotguns for more three decades. Familiarity is comforting. Defensive things seem to happen within the effective range of the shotgun.

With some training, one can learn to keep a shotgun fed.

A Benelli M2 is notably light in weight, easy to tote, on a sling or in-hand, for long distances, while moving quickly. Some part of my body’s moving parts no longer work so well, and my upper spine is having some problems, so, light weight is a good thing.

I feel no desire to attend a high-volume-fire carbine school, but if I did, I reckon a “californicated” AR/M4-ish could be my hobby carbine. I have nothing against long gun training, but would rather attend a good defensive shotgun class.

Once upon a time, I would have mentioned a Mini-14, but there have been indications that the Mini is not going to slip through the cracks, next time ‘round.

I would like to add an M1 Garand, sooner or later, but more for owning a shoot-able piece of history, than defense.

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Originally Posted by ST911

Somewhere around here are a couple of threads on practical fighting bolt guns that are pretty informative. Based on the premise that they are useful today, and likely one of the last guns to go given adverse legislation.

Building specific skill sets on those guns seems prudent. On my own to-do list:
Randy Cain's Practical Rifle course: https://guntactics.com/rifle.php
Larry Mudgett's Bolt Action Rifle course: http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/c...-rifle-course/

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There is a certain amount of self deception in the Cooper school of "fighting bolt guns."

For fighting at longer distances (100 to 300 plus yards) a bolt gun still has some utility.

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at practical distances under field conditions

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However, outside the fantasy of re-fighting the Boer war that the late Col Cooper and some of his disciples fall victim to, the bolt gun has little utility in fighting at realistic distances for CONUS defensive scenarios i.e. inside 50 (or 25) yards.

Lever guns are better at those realistic ranges but at the cost of complexity and fragility.

Lever guns were mythologized in an era when they were "overmatch" vs opponents armed with single shot rifles and revolvers but once everyone had manually operated repeaters every significant military or institutional user went with bolt guns.

I like my scout rifle (and prefer it to lever guns) but I'm realistic about what it is, and is not.

There is a school of thought that bans on modern weapons are ok because I can just go to gun school and become Simo Häyhä. It's a dangerous fantasy that will end badly.

Browning BAR MK3 DBM

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Originally Posted by HCM

There is a certain amount of self deception in the Cooper school of "fighting bolt guns."

For fighting at longer distances (100 to 300 plus yards) a bolt gun still has some utility.



However, outside the fantasy of re-fighting the Boer war that the late Col Cooper and some of his disciples fall victim to, the bolt gun has little utility in fighting at realistic distances for CONUS defensive scenarios i.e. inside 50 (or 25) yards.

Lever guns are better at those realistic ranges but at the cost of complexity and fragility.

Lever guns were mythologized in an era when they were "overmatch" vs opponents armed with single shot rifles and revolvers but once everyone had manually operated repeaters every significant military or institutional user went with bolt guns.

I like my scout rifle (and prefer it to lever guns) but I'm realistic about what it is, and is not.

There is a school of thought that bans on modern weapons are ok because I can just go to gun school and become Simo Häyhä. It's a dangerous fantasy that will end badly.

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It's possible I've misread Cooper but I'm pretty sure conceptually the Scout was intended as a hunting rifle that could double as a defensive arm for a person solo out in the field. I think for the sort of shorter ranged tactical distances you're talking about he would have encouraged use of the "social shotgun".

It's the Dunning-Cowboy-Kruger effect reinforced by watching videos of folks shooting some of the guns. In a way, it's like the endless debate by some who want to refloat the Iowa battleships, spouting WWII relevant statistics.

I'm watching a debate from some old toot pushing a tactical single round shotgun because he saw Clint Smith run one on steel plates and then the folks who spout the average 3,3,3 - 5 is enough mantras denounce as nuts those who suggest it is reasonable to have more capacity. I've mentioned the NTI shoot house with a double barrel, multiple opponents, you running around with box of mixed bird and slugs. Bet they never did that or even run a shotgun in a 3 guns, IDPA or whatever style match. As I mentioned, I had to butt stroke a surprise target after taking out the two obvious ones. I'm an old professor - I don't need to do that.

Michael Bane’s scoutish BLR .223 is an interesting 50 state legal solution. Only real challenge is crazy expensive 5 round mags.

https://www.michaelbane.tv/how-to-st...of-jail/49208/

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Originally Posted by M2CattleCo

Who cares?


I live in Mexico part of the year and have illegal handguns and long guns.


Do whatever you want and don’t get caught.

Outside of knowing the law well enough to not get caught, the law isn’t relevant.

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(Nods in fluent Californio, New Yawkish, and Connecticut-ian.)

I did not intend for this to be a place where you say or imply that you are going to break the law or not. It's just about what the best options are that would still be legal if "adverse legislation" (or ATF redefining) occurs.

A good point brought up several times now is that we don't know how bad it will be, so maybe there's a couple of scenarios we can play with. If all semi autos with detachable mags were illegal, what would be our best options for long guns? The main two that come to mind are the M1 Garand and the SKS. If all semi autos period were banned, what then? I would agree that lever guns are fragile and bolt guns are obsolete. I also don't trust myself not to jam up a lever action (or even a pump shotgun for that matter). I have also gotten to see some pump rifles in action and also came to the conclusion that most of them are garbage, as others here have pointed out.

Oh boy...

1) Much of this trying to nail jello to the wall. I think a bunch of people are stuck on the idea that a future ban will be identical to the "evil cosmetic features" ban. Washington state just defined any semi-automatic rifle as an "assault rifle." They aren't banned (yet) but there is no difference in the law between an AR pattern rifle, a Mini-14, Browning BAR, or even a Marlin Model 60.

2) In practical terms, I don't know how worried I am. "Not able to own an AR15" isn't the same thing as "unarmed." Shotguns (pump or semi) are decisive. Combat rifle stuff is really low on my list of my priorities. At this point often people will chime in with "You aren't a real American if you don't own an AR15." They can fuck off.

3) New laws will drive new weapons. The Remington 7615 is a POS but it's certainly possible to have a rugged pump-action, magazine fed .223 or .300 BLK rifle if there is a market.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Red Dawn CosPlay.

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Originally Posted by jandbj

Michael Bane’s scoutish BLR .223 is an interesting 50 state legal solution. Only real challenge is crazy expensive 5 round mags.

https://www.michaelbane.tv/how-to-st...of-jail/49208/

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Another alternative is a bolt Cee Zed 527 carbine, available in .223 (but perfectly capable of using 5.56, which CZ stipulates to in writing) and 7.62 x 39 (which is what I personally chose-a significant factor for me is that in Washington 5.56/.223 is illegal for hunting deer while 7.62 X 39 is good to go), with nicely made and not ridiculously priced 5 round magazines (around $35-$40 a wack).

Another thought is that a bolt action while intrinsically tactically inferior to a semi-auto may become less inferior if you're operating in a 2-person team or larger squad, and have trained for mutiually supportive fire.

I'm figuring it'll do no harm to have a good, vetted bolt or two before things get politically moderately interesting and prices skyrockets and availability becomes transformed into unobtanioum. As others have mentioned, a M1/M1 variant/Mini-14/Ranch Rifle could be viable contenders too.

I'm still attracted to the detachable 10 round magazine of the Lee Enfield (which in actual practice is really semi-permanantly mounted, removed primarily only for cleaning and maintenance, with actual reloading bering performed via stripper clips, which are much less expensive and less bulky).

Best, Jon

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Originally Posted by JonInWA

Another alternative is a bolt Cee Zed 527 carbine, available in .223 (but perfectly capable of using 5.56, which CZ stipulates to in writing) and 7.62 x 39 (which is what I personally chose-a significant factor for me is that in Washington 5.56/.223 is illegal for hunting deer while 7.62 X 39 is good to go), with nicely made and not ridiculously priced 5 round magazines (around $35-$40 a wack).

Another thought is that a bolt action while intrinsically tactically inferior to a semi-auto may become less inferior if you're operating in a 2-person team or larger squad, and have trained for mutiually supportive fire.

I'm figuring it'll do no harm to have a good, vetted bolt or two before things get politically moderately interesting and prices skyrockets and availability becomes transformed into unobtanioum. As others have mentioned, a M1/M1 variant/Mini-14/Ranch Rifle could be viable contenders too.

I'm still attracted to the detachable 10 round magazine of the Lee Enfield (which in actual practice is really semi-permanantly mounted, removed primarily only for cleaning and maintenance, with actual reloading bering performed via stripper clips, which are much less expensive and less bulky).

Best, Jon

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Funny you mention the CZ527 commie edition. I too have one. Mine has a Dove guns scout mount and NECG ghost ring rear with the factory front fiber optic sight. Presently deciding if it gets a scout scope or just a T1 sized red dot optic.

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Originally Posted by jandbj

Funny you mention the CZ527 commie edition. I too have one. Mine has a Dove guns scout mount and NECG ghost ring rear with the factory front fiber optic sight. Presently deciding if it gets a scout scope or just a T1 sized red dot optic.

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I have on with a conventionally mounted 2-7x. Out performs any 30-30 lever gun I've tried as a practical carbine.

Hopefully you have an adequate supply of magazines for it.

Not sure what the deal is with them but they have become hard to find and crazy expensive. Like $100 plus ...

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Originally Posted by HCM

I have on with a conventionally mounted 2-7x. Out performs any 30-30 lever gun I've tried as a practical carbine.

Hopefully you have an adequate supply of magazines for it.

Not sure what the deal is with them but they have become hard to find and crazy expensive. Like $100 plus ...

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Sign up for back in stock notifications at gunmagwarehouse & lanbosarmory. They show up semi regularly at both places for around $40. That’s how I got my spares.

Kinda spoiled with the availability of the Ruger gunsite scout mags, but the CZ is completely worth the higher tariff.

This took some doing but is CA legal by current definitions. Ares/FightLight SCR receiver with improved Gen 2 trigger. Magpul Mossberg stock adapter from a guy on AR15.com. Brownells BRN-180 upper. Linear comp. Ambi mag release installed due to SCR mag release location. CZ Scorpion irons for backup through the Aimpoint.

The only thing I don't like about it (and haven't found a good solution for) is the cross-bolt safety.

Handles and shoots well, much better than all the other CA workarounds I've tried. Unfortunately I understand that the Ares/FightLight SCR receivers have been unobtanium for a long time.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9322914e_b.jpgUntitled by Vandal Pix, on Flickr

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Originally Posted by vandal

This took some doing but is CA legal by current definitions. Ares/FightLight SCR receiver with improved Gen 2 trigger. Magpul Mossberg stock adapter from a guy on AR15.com. Brownells BRN-180 upper. Linear comp. Ambi mag release installed due to SCR mag release location. CZ Scorpion irons for backup through the Aimpoint.

The only thing I don't like about it (and haven't found a good solution for) is the cross-bolt safety.

Handles and shoots well, much better than all the other CA workarounds I've tried. Unfortunately I understand that the Ares/FightLight SCR receivers have been unobtanium for a long time.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9322914e_b.jpgUntitled by Vandal Pix, on Flickr

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Not harmonious to the eyes, but I imagine that speaking from function, there are *way* worse solutions than that one.

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Originally Posted by SwampDweller

The main two that come to mind are the M1 Garand and the SKS.

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FWIW:

DSA used to offer a “Cali FAL” with a fixed mag and stripper top cover.

Czechpoint used to offer a fixed mag, stripper clip fed vz58 IIRC.

— Michael

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Originally Posted by Lester Polfus

The wave of first time gun-buyers were not, by and large, Trump voters. They may not see some things the way you do, particularly when it comes to guns, but they also didn't stand in line to take whatever firearm they could get so they could turn around and give it up.

On a national level, I predict lots of noise, and very little action.

On state wide levels, it'll get interesting. Here in Washington, we pass all our gun control laws via citizen initiative, and King and Snohomish county can pretty much impose their will on the rest of the state. It's been interesting when some gun owners that voted for our "assault weapon" law found out that it applied to their Marlin Model 60.

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Is a semi-auto shotgun an assault weapon in Washington?

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Originally Posted by DamonL

Is a semi-auto shotgun an assault weapon in Washington?

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No. A 10/22 falls under semi-auto rifle rules but a 1301 does not. (duh! get enlightened brah)

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Originally Posted by Navin Johnson

No. A 10/22 falls under semi-auto rifle rules but a 1301 does not. (duh! get enlightened brah)

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I just wanted to get clarification. So a semi-auto shotgun seems to be the better bet than a semi-auto rifle for a ban-compliant defensive long gun.

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Originally Posted by DamonL

I just wanted to get clarification. So a semi-auto shotgun seems to be the better bet than a semi-auto rifle for a ban-compliant defensive long gun.

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Yes but as long as you're 21 there is no restrictions on owning a magazine fed semi-automatic rifle. They are trying though

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Originally Posted by DamonL

I just wanted to get clarification. So a semi-auto shotgun seems to be the better bet than a semi-auto rifle for a ban-compliant defensive long gun.

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It sounds to me like this is probably the closest to ideal as it would get if there were the kinds of restrictions on semi autos certain groups are striving for. At that point semi autos would have to be banned entirely to get rid of those too, in which case I suppose the name of the game is pump shotguns despite my aversion to them due to potential short stroking under stress. Other than that, I guess a 10rd bolt action would be one of the better rifle choices in such a situation.

I suppose I should clarify my comments a bit.

Like others said here, there has been so much movement toward defensive firearm ownership by previously uninterested segments of the population this last year that getting them dis-armed will be politically and logistically quite difficult.

Also, comprehensive gun bans on the state level have historically laughable levels of compliance (in California, which has required various forms of registration since 1/1/1990, an estimated .69% compliance as of 6/2018!)
and also very low levels of enforcement. I understand NY is similar in many upstate and western counties, and Connecticut is well under 20%. LEO former neighbors of my mom have told me that even Hawaii has a large number of unregistered firearms.
As we are seeing with the pistol brace situation, the legal rules change often with the political winds, so no one knows what will be legal or not in any given year.
Like @Lester Polfus has said, I think anything meaningful will be attempted at the state level. And like the previous attempts in CA and elsewhere, they will largely be ignored by the populace.

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Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Well, I guess I'm pretty liberal (especially for a gun forum). I can definitely say that the Jan 6th coup attempt rattled a lot of liberals. It finally sank in just why we need to be armed. My prediction is that the pawn shops will be full to bursting with barely-used gun in about a year. Provided the vaccine is effective against new variant of the SARS-CoV-2 and life returns to more or less normal, a lot of the new gun owners will forget all about it...until the next time. Of course some of the new gun owners will make a startling discovery- guns are a lot of fun! Years ago one of my younger very-liberal and anti-gun friends finally agreed to tag along with me to the range. He was shocked by how much fun it was to shoot. Over the next couple of years his views changed. Guns were no longer just something a criminal might use but a tool that had some usefulness. I wound up moving out west and hadn't talked to him for a few years. Then early last year he e-mailed me a picture of his new BCM AR!:o Really nice LPVO on it, probably a nicer rig than any of my ARs at the time. And right next to it he had some geeked-up SIG "manbun gun"!

I guess the point is we've become so accustomed to thinking anyone with a different political view is our enemy, not fit to breath the same air as we do. Closer to the truth we're all just Americans, overworked and underpaid, just trying to get through life in a world that's indifferent to our existence. Talk to someone you maybe normally wouldn't socialize with and maybe you'll both learn something.:)

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Originally Posted by Navin Johnson

A.....I would beg to differ that the events on Jan.6 were NOT what caused even the "tolerant left" to purchase firearms.

I would spitball if enlightened leftists purchased firearms it was largely due to all the progressive cities they lived in and voted for burning to the ground. (self preservation)

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I agree with @Navin Johnson on this.

Regardless of semantics of January 6th (a criminal riot ? Sure, but a coup attempt - not even close. More like a giant temper tantrum. ) the wave of first time gun buyers started LONG before Jan 6th.

There was a wave of panicked buying spurred by COVID lockdowns and fears of shortages of food, toilet paper etc. then a 2nd wave of panic buying spurred by the George Floyd Riots, then a 3rd wave spurred by the “Long Hot Summer,” a 4th wave driven, as expected, by the election, 5th wave post election by people who don’t understand civics and thought Xiden could ban everything at the stroke of a pen, then Jan 6th spurred a 6th wave.

The First wave is what got most first time gun owners thinking about buying / needing a gun even if they didn’t act on it until the events that spurred 2nd and 3rd waves reinforced the idea that a break down of social order (even a temporary one) was a real possibility.

I agree with HCM. The non compliance isn't that useful except for apocalypse time. I've said before if a ban came around that was inclusive of all the semis (and wait for the pumps and levers - like Australia. PS - talking to an Australian, he thought their ban was dandy as he turned in his and got the money for some fancy bolt gun) the risks are:

1. Can't compete. The carbine matches I shot with HCM are out. Our matches had a nice representation of local and Federal law enforcement, so that's an issue. The match director and range owner won't allow it for obvious reason. I've been checking out a local range to use my long arms and was told specifically - NO, non-compliant NYS semis.

2. Use in self-defense - look like a law breaker to the jury if it isn't the proverbial 'good shoot'. Might face gun charges also. Recall Bernard - got by on SD, not guns.

3. Leave in pain in the ass for my heirs. I'm getting into OOPS, I just dropped dead - range. I don't need my non-gun expert wife or kid to deal with a stash.

4. Oops, you get turned in for a zealous prosecutor. Some work enemy, your little kid or adolscent blabs. Your EX - says - show me the money or you get turned in.

5. The civilian industry and retail are destroyed. Yep, lots of bolt guns will be sold. Here I saw shotguns flying off the shelves in the various panics.

I know that folks are noncompliant. I don't want to know if you are. Don't tell me.

I'm thinking about a new SW 66 if the market opens up or maybe one of those Pedersoli 410/45 pistols for double barrel Joe time (the latter is joke, friends).

I've said - state bans are the real problem unless we get a moral panic from some nut that scares the GOP also.

The problem with a semi-auto rifle or magazine ban is it's unlikely to reduce the number of rifles already in the hands of millions of Americans. About the only real possibility of anything out of congress regarding a ban is the sale or transfer of SA rifles and magazines. That may actually happen with this adm and congress. I've seen this coming for awhile as I live in one of the most AG states in the US.

Those who already own the rifles and magazines that will be restricted, those will be buried with them. Or maybe you could just sell them to a Mexican cartel associate and get your original investment back with a small profit. Gun running will become a new industry in the US like liquor was during prohibition. It will be really hard to keep a lid on it. If the fed can't keep drugs from coming into the US, how are they going to keep SA rifles from going to Mexico?

I saw a black market for a lot of stuff in N. Africa, including firearms. You could get whatever you wanted, you just needed the connections.

Having participated in many of these type discussions over the years, couple observations/thoughts.

1. spend more time ensuring such a ban doesn't happen. if we spent as much energy fighting a proposed ban as is expended on these theoretical discussions trying to find how to work around, be compliant etc with a ban that hasn't happened yet, we wouldn't have a ban to worry about.

2. spend some of that panic buying money of ammo and rifles that might "go away" on supporting those who are on the front lines of the fight to prevent a ban. then we might not have to worry about a ban.

3. Should a ban happen, since we are not living in a war zone, we are talking about protecting one's self from criminal activity, which is fighting and not combat. As such, you still live in a world where each bullet has to be justified. While having a semi auto is not about dumping a magazine at every threat, but about eliminating the need to split focus between threat and manipulating your firearm in order to take the next shot, simply having any repeating rifle that has proven to be reliable is sufficient.

This means bolt actions, lever actions and pump actions will all be sufficient. Keep them short, 16 to 20 inch barrels, mount low powered scopes or red dots and you will be fine for typical criminal activity. Ya, I know all about the In Range discussion...but they are talking about combat, not protection against criminals. Even if their points were valid for non combat applications, it would not matter as under a ban situation, the option for a semi auto wouldn't exist anyway.

given a choice, of course the right choice is a semi auto. but if that choice is taken away, then you go with what you can get and learn to use it.

Again, best use of energy/resources right now.... making sure the ban never happens then you don't have to worry about how to "work around it".