Thoughts on USPSA divisions

Ben Berry's most recent podcast notes that there are potential Production rule changes in January, and he has some thoughts about what should happen. To summarize what he said:

He makes the observation that there should be divisions for three levels of firearm modification:
Low-to-no modification - Production's original intent - nearly-stock guns shooting factory or factory-equivalent ammo.
Medium modification - Limited - Most things allowed except optics and compensators.
Very modified - Open - Almost no equipment rules, where custom reloaded ammo is almost required.

But with rule changes over the years, Production is almost Limited Minor, and CO is almost Limited Minor Optics. They're not stock gun divisions anymore, and there really isn't any place for the shooter who doesn't want to modify their gun. When you take those three levels of modification and subdivide them into optics & non-optics, you get five divisions: Low-modification irons & optics, medium modification irons & optics, and high modification optics. There's not really an interest in a high-modification irons division.

His proposals:
1. CO becomes Limited Optics (medium-modification optics). Single action, magwells, etc are allowed as in Limited now.
2. Production returns to its roots (low-modification irons).
a. Instead of getting into minutiae about internal parts modifications / substitution, first have a trigger pull weight test like IPSC where there's a 5lb pull on the first DA shot & and no limit for subsequent SA shots, or 3lb pull for striker-fired. Second, allow a small (~2 oz) weight differential from whatever is the out-of-the-box weight for that gun model. If someone can make a change but still stay within the firearm weight limit and the trigger pull requirements, then the change probably isn't a big deal.
b. Go back to requiring 2000 guns to be manufactured to get on the Production gun list, and get more accurate weights for guns from manufacturers. (He says that the current Production gun list is inaccurate.)
c. Change to a 15-round capacity. The 10-round limit is due to the expired AWB and doesn't make sense anymore. If stage planning with <=10-round magazines is interesting, there's still Single Stack. Rule 3.3.1 covers states with mag cap limits.
3. Create a new Production Optics (low-modification optics) division: literally just Production with an optic and a slightly-increased weight differential to allow for the weight of the optic.
4. Current Limited and Open don't change, except possibly a name change from Limited to Limited Irons.

Overall, I think these proposals are a good idea, but a few comments:

First, L10 is literally the most pointless division now that rule 3.3.1 exists. Get rid of it.
Second, when talking about Limited Optics he didn't really expand on the idea, specifically how major & minor scoring would work. I think the best solution would be to make Limited Optics minor-only, and have Limited Irons allow both major & minor. Otherwise Limited Optics will be like Limited is now where minor is allowed but not really a serious option (2022 Limited Nationals results notwithstanding) and major is the only serious choice. This means that every current CO gun (almost certainly shooting 9mm minor) wouldn't be instantly at a disadvantage against someone putting an optic on their current .40 S&W Limited gun.

While I appreciate the desire to welcome shooters with stock guns, by their second or third match most of those guns have been modified for some perceived advantage.

All the momentum in USPSA is towards an optic -- CO, PCC and Open.

Not suggesting this, but if everything was minor scoring and 140 or 170 mag length, you would hardly need divisions.

I’d like to run my DIY ‘Macro’ (XL slide w Macro grip module) with fully loaded 17 round mags when I get back into USPSA next year (taking a break because: reasons). Either w irons or a dot.

At my level (local) no one cares much about gear, but if Production is still 10 rounds, I’ll still shoot it w irons and reload a lot, I guess. Or put on a dot and not worry about it.

If I were going to make a radical suggestion, I would propose that each division should be major-only or minor-only. Right now In Limited and Open, major is the only serious choice. (Does anyone other than luddites shoot Revolver, or b'gawd-the-1911-won-two-world-wars boomers shoot Single Stack?)

Then get rid of 5-4-2 scoring for major and go to 5-3-1 for everything. The only reason 5-4-2 scoring exists is to compensate major for the extra recoil vs minor in divisions with both, but with a single power floor per division that wouldn't be needed anymore.

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Originally Posted by CleverNickname

Ben Berry's most recent podcast notes that there are potential Production rule changes in January, and he has some thoughts about what should happen. To summarize what he said:

He makes the observation that there should be divisions for three levels of firearm modification:
Low-to-no modification - Production's original intent - nearly-stock guns shooting factory or factory-equivalent ammo.
Medium modification - Limited - Most things allowed except optics and compensators.
Very modified - Open - Almost no equipment rules, where custom reloaded ammo is almost required.

But with rule changes over the years, Production is almost Limited Minor, and CO is almost Limited Minor Optics. They're not stock gun divisions anymore, and there really isn't any place for the shooter who doesn't want to modify their gun. When you take those three levels of modification and subdivide them into optics & non-optics, you get five divisions: Low-modification irons & optics, medium modification irons & optics, and high modification optics. There's not really an interest in a high-modification irons division.

His proposals:
1. CO becomes Limited Optics (medium-modification optics). Single action, magwells, etc are allowed as in Limited now.
2. Production returns to its roots (low-modification irons).
a. Instead of getting into minutiae about internal parts modifications / substitution, first have a trigger pull weight test like IPSC where there's a 5lb pull on the first DA shot & and no limit for subsequent SA shots, or 3lb pull for striker-fired. Second, allow a small (~2 oz) weight differential from whatever is the out-of-the-box weight for that gun model. If someone can make a change but still stay within the firearm weight limit and the trigger pull requirements, then the change probably isn't a big deal.
b. Go back to requiring 2000 guns to be manufactured to get on the Production gun list, and get more accurate weights for guns from manufacturers. (He says that the current Production gun list is inaccurate.)
c. Change to a 15-round capacity. The 10-round limit is due to the expired AWB and doesn't make sense anymore. If stage planning with <=10-round magazines is interesting, there's still Single Stack. Rule 3.3.1 covers states with mag cap limits.
3. Create a new Production Optics (low-modification optics) division: literally just Production with an optic and a slightly-increased weight differential to allow for the weight of the optic.
4. Current Limited and Open don't change, except possibly a name change from Limited to Limited Irons.

Overall, I think these proposals are a good idea, but a few comments:

First, L10 is literally the most pointless division now that rule 3.3.1 exists. Get rid of it.
Second, when talking about Limited Optics he didn't really expand on the idea, specifically how major & minor scoring would work. I think the best solution would be to make Limited Optics minor-only, and have Limited Irons allow both major & minor. Otherwise Limited Optics will be like Limited is now where minor is allowed but not really a serious option (2022 Limited Nationals results notwithstanding) and major is the only serious choice. This means that every current CO gun (almost certainly shooting 9mm minor) wouldn't be instantly at a disadvantage against someone putting an optic on their current .40 S&W Limited gun.

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I like this, especially the trigger weight and 15 round mag capacity.

High cap magazines are a PIA.

I'm a touch confused about the magazine capacity issue. Given the expanding number of states with 10 round limits, how does this work? When competitors from those states go elsewhere, they haven't really practiced planning with 15.

The AWB is alive and well in some places. Should there be a Red state and Blue state division?

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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

I'm a touch confused about the magazine capacity issue. Given the expanding number of states with 10 round limits, how does this work? When competitors from those states go elsewhere, they haven't really practiced planning with 15.

The AWB is alive and well in some places. Should there be a Red state and Blue state division?

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it isn't a huge deal. I shoot with a ton of CO/open NY guys who seem to have a storage area for hi caps mags when they cross the border and play down here. I also regularly switch between production and limited and don't notice any issues. Just remember to factor in your reload as part of your stage plan and not based on round count. When I go to NY, nobody is shooting production anyway.

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Originally Posted by GJM

Not suggesting this, but if everything was minor scoring and 140 or 170 mag length, you would hardly need divisions.

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That's an interesting concept that I've not thought about. It could be utilized to consolidate divisions for sure. Optic and Irons.

But I have doubts that it would get any consideration amongst the board or membership. Interesting nonetheless...

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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

I'm a touch confused about the magazine capacity issue. Given the expanding number of states with 10 round limits, how does this work? When competitors from those states go elsewhere, they haven't really practiced planning with 15.

The AWB is alive and well in some places. Should there be a Red state and Blue state division?

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That's what rule 3.3.1 is for:

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Originally Posted by USPSA rulebook rule 3.3.1

In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

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There's the reverse issue too, with competitors with states that don't have map capacity limits. If they go to shoot a match in a ban state then they have to reload at 10 when (presumably) they haven't practiced for that as much.

I don't even know what Production roots are/were but if it remains that 47oz 9mm guns are legal in that division and, by extension, in Production Optics, I fail to see what's the point of these proposed rules changes. Low mod/no mod requirement is kinda pointless to me if the gun, off the shelf, is a purpose built race gun.

Production is dead as far as I see it. At my locals hardly anyone shoots it. It's gone the way of single stack. Going to 15 round mags would revive it I think.

Carry optics is such a dominant division it could be split in half and still be the top two divisions in the sport. If I were king for a day I'd do a production optics and limited optics. Both minor divisions but one allows for SA guns and magwells and production optics is more like IPSC rules with trigger pull weight rules to prevent 2 lb striker guns.

Limited and Open can stay the same although I think they should seriously reconsider the major PF limit. Imagine if it was something more like +p ammo. 9 major now is outside SAMI specs and it's no wonder there are very few ammo manufacturers that make it. If they bumped it down to +p you could run an off the shelf gun and not have to buy extinct .40 cal ammo or make dangerous 9 major.

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Originally Posted by JCS

Production is dead as far as I see it. At my locals hardly anyone shoots it. It's gone the way of single stack. Going to 15 round mags would revive it I think.

Carry optics is such a dominant division it could be split in half and still be the top two divisions in the sport. If I were king for a day I'd do a production optics and limited optics. Both minor divisions but one allows for SA guns and magwells and production optics is more like IPSC rules with trigger pull weight rules to prevent 2 lb striker guns.

Limited and Open can stay the same although I think they should seriously reconsider the major PF limit. Imagine if it was something more like +p ammo. 9 major now is outside SAMI specs and it's no wonder there are very few ammo manufacturers that make it. If they bumped it down to +p you could run an off the shelf gun and not have to buy extinct .40 cal ammo or make dangerous 9 major.

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That sounds good to me. There are a bunch of shooters (myself included) who have no interest in 2011s or Major, but want to compete on a level playing field.

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion... Strictly from a timmie point of view. I would like to have a timmie division. That used to be Production. Weight limit, no modification, no Shadow 2 types of steel tanks. Don't really care about capacity... More important: increase a minimum power factor to at least 150, ideally to 160 to match real +p ammo. Shooting major PF ammo from a Limited gun is much closer to shooting +P ammo 9mm from a polymer gun. Don't get me wrong - I love Shadow 2, used to have 5 in various configuration. But let's face it - shooting soft 125 PF ammo from 50oz gun is different. Just strictly from a Timmie perspective.

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Originally Posted by cheby

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion... Strictly from a timmie point of view. I would like to have a timmie division. That used to be Production. Weight limit, no modification, no Shadow 2 types of steel tanks. Don't really care about capacity... More important: increase a minimum power factor to at least 150, ideally to 160 to match real +p ammo. Shooting major PF ammo from a Limited gun is much closer to shooting +P ammo 9mm from a polymer gun. Don't get me wrong - I love Shadow 2, used to have 5 in various configuration. But let's face it - shooting soft 125 PF ammo from 50oz gun is different. Just strictly from a Timmie perspective.

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I like it. 147gr HST at 1000-1050fps = 150PF

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Originally Posted by cheby

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion... Strictly from a timmie point of view. I would like to have a timmie division. That used to be Production. Weight limit, no modification, no Shadow 2 types of steel tanks. Don't really care about capacity... More important: increase a minimum power factor to at least 150, ideally to 160 to match real +p ammo. Shooting major PF ammo from a Limited gun is much closer to shooting +P ammo 9mm from a polymer gun. Don't get me wrong - I love Shadow 2, used to have 5 in various configuration. But let's face it - shooting soft 125 PF ammo from 50oz gun is different. Just strictly from a Timmie perspective.

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Yo, timmy, next time we shoot a match, it is you and me, mano a mano, you with your M18 and me with ma Glock. 124+P Speer Gold Dot.
I wanted to get @GJM on board with that today but he's all about Open these days.

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Originally Posted by YVK

Yo, timmy, next time we shoot a match, it is you and me, mano a mano, you with your M18 and me with ma Glock. 124+P Speer Gold Dot.
I wanted to get @GJM on board with that today but he's all about Open these days.

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Lol. Yes, let’s do it. You - with your HK 357SIG. To clarify my previous post a little. I am personally not a timmie. I just wanted to contribute a little about USPSA on pistol- forum because I care about my brothers here. Merry Christmas everyone.

There won’t ever be a rule set that makes everyone happy, and I think we’re going to see continuous changes as opposed to big resets.

I like the idea of small, medium, and large size/weight classes. As mentioned upthread, there will always be high-dollar factory guns, and factory guns tuned-out for their divisions. I’m not such a fan of “stock” style divisions simply because the urge to modify for any shooting sport is always so strong. Any intent around a “no-mods” rule turns into “some mods” rule set that the serious competitors optimize for.

I don’t have any clue what to do about minor/major power factor(s) floors & ceilings, 5-4-2 vs 5-3-1 scoring, optics, comps, action types, or how to keep divisions from being locked down into a “relevant from 2020-2025” time capsule context that risks inhibiting innovation and experimentation.

The common practical pistol is a polymer framed dot-on-slide double stack 9mm. It might be as small as a P365X with a EPS or as big and heavy as a LTT 92 with brass grips, a X300 and a Acro, and I bet the number of G19s with RMRs or Holosun 407s out in the world would be sobering. There are differences in the performance potential of each of those guns, and the questions become- to what extend must the divisions and rules for each account for that performance potential delta? To what extent should classic guns such as revolvers and single stacks be included in competitive equity, and how can the really wacky stuff find a home that encourages innovation?

I like how CO is both where the heat seems to focus and where the new shooter can “off-the-shelf easy button” show up, shoot well, and have competitive equipment.

Selfishly, I wish that the concept of the old “Modified” division or the 2-gun world’s “Stealth” division made another run at USPSA. I really like the idea of a fixed and challenging volume weight envelope where dot size/mounting, mag length, porting/comps, lights/lasers, and base gun size-weight-power-capacity are all being traded against each other. I’m also 100% on board with DA, striker, and SAO trigger pull weight minimums.

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Originally Posted by cheby

Lol. Yes, let’s do it. You - with your HK 357SIG. To clarify my previous post a little. I am personally not a timmie. I just wanted to contribute a little about USPSA on pistol- forum because I care about my brothers here. Merry Christmas everyone.

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You too, buddy. But you’re totally a Timmy, don’t deny it.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

You too, buddy. But you’re totally a Timmy, don’t deny it.

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Haha. Fact check: mostly true but out of context

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Originally Posted by YVK

Yo, timmy, next time we shoot a match, it is you and me, mano a mano, you with your M18 and me with ma Glock. 124+P Speer Gold Dot.
I wanted to get @GJM on board with that today but he's all about Open these days.

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Dude, shoot a match with GOLD DOT -- the only time I would be willing to shoot more than five rounds of Gold Dot to check zero, would be in the mall.

The funny thing is about every two weeks, YVK asks me if I would shoot in a Glock 19 with a red dot only division in USPSA. He forgets that the first year CO became a thing in USPSA, I exclusively shot a Glock 19 with an optic. It is a bitch when you shoot a Shadow 2, because things like a Glock 19 seem so crude they should have their own division. :p

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Originally Posted by CleverNickname

Ben Berry's most recent podcast notes that there are potential Production rule changes in January...

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I let my membership lapse, so I can't log on to check, but what, exactly, are these? Wasn't there a pretty big kerfuffle the last time rules changes were adopted, with some mentioning there was not enough time between the proposals and the approval of the changes? I ask because if there are rules changes, being considered, it would be good to know what they are, if anybody knows. The last Competition Rule book I can find as a non-member is dated September 2021, so I assume that's the latest.

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Originally Posted by cheby

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion... Strictly from a timmie point of view. I would like to have a timmie division. That used to be Production. Weight limit, no modification, no Shadow 2 types of steel tanks. Don't really care about capacity... More important: increase a minimum power factor to at least 150, ideally to 160 to match real +p ammo. Shooting major PF ammo from a Limited gun is much closer to shooting +P ammo 9mm from a polymer gun. Don't get me wrong - I love Shadow 2, used to have 5 in various configuration. But let's face it - shooting soft 125 PF ammo from 50oz gun is different. Just strictly from a Timmie perspective.

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I like it! My only temptation to shoot major is to do a carry gun with full power ammo.

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Originally Posted by JCS

Production is dead as far as I see it. At my locals hardly anyone shoots it. It's gone the way of single stack. Going to 15 round mags would revive it I think.

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From just what I see here… nothing is going to revive Production.

Because new shooters just aren’t going there.

Partially because now all the “cool kids” are with dots and… this is the kicker… they see how much better new dot guys are getting quickly because of the learning benefits of dots and they quickly understand that irons are inferior for new shooters in USPSA.

Add to that more reloads, which is a whole different skill that eats up practice time and lower cap divisions will be less popular to new shooters than higher cap ones.

IMO divisions with lower cap and irons take more skill than higher cap and dots. While philosophically that appeals to some newer people to start… they eventually learn that the training benefit of dots gets them further in the medium term.

There’s a local guy like that. He’s super serious about USPSA but only shoots Production and Limited. Has been for about the same time I’ve been shooting. He shoots a TON and practices a TON. Goes to all the National events… but still is stuck in semi-turtle mode because like IDPA, he’s over confirming based off his capacity restrictions.

And on classifiers he’s still stuck in A zone.

So I think for training how to shoot USPSA, CO fosters more rapid learning in dry and in live for gaming.

I might go to production or limited Timmy in the future as an advanced skill, but it isn’t a great place for newer shooters who are really looking to improve quickly.

My IMO.

In terms of shooters new to USPSA, I see differences by age. For new shooters under 50 years of age, most have red dots. For older new shooters, most have irons. The irony is the older shooters might benefit even more from a red dot.

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Originally Posted by GJM

In terms of shooters new to USPSA, I see differences by age. For new shooters under 50 years of age, most have red dots. For older new shooters, most have irons. The irony is the older shooters might benefit even more from a red dot.

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I thought allowing Revo optics in Revo would help some aging Revo enthusiasts stay in division. Sure you’d get some complaints from purists… but there’s hardly anybody in division now.

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Originally Posted by JCN

I thought allowing Revo optics in Revo would help some aging Revo enthusiasts stay in division. Sure you’d get some complaints from purists… but there’s hardly anybody in division now.

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There should be a 22lr airweight optics division so that it forces some company to go after that segment of 5 shooters and I can buy one....

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Originally Posted by GJM

While I appreciate the desire to welcome shooters with stock guns, by their second or third match most of those guns have been modified for some perceived advantage.

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From the perspective of just one location, I’m finding that shooters using their stock defensive pistol is still a large segment of the weekly fun shoot that I’ve started attending. CO has plenty of more experienced shooters who are in it to win it, but there’s still people running box-stock striker fired guns, because, fun practice. Of course, the fun shoot exists to *get* people into shooting, and the area that it serves hereabouts is pretty heavy on shooters who know that our cops can’t be there so somebody has to pick up the slack. It’s a regional thing, but I’m seeing a lot of people running stock guns from carry holsters each week. Pretty much 2 categories: shooters learning to shoot better, and lifers who compete CO and PCC, religiously.

Again, this particular range is a gateway to matches for a lot of newbies (including, to a large extent, me) so probably an outlier.

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Originally Posted by JCN

I thought allowing Revo optics in Revo would help some aging Revo enthusiasts stay in division. Sure you’d get some complaints from purists… but there’s hardly anybody in division now.

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It’s common for me to be the only guy showing up with a round gun, and even I don’t do it all the time.

:)

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Originally Posted by RJ

I let my membership lapse, so I can't log on to check, but what, exactly, are these?

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Just going by what Ben said at the top of the podcast I just linked, there's nothing definite, but the BOD's January meeting will likely consider making some changes.

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Originally Posted by CleverNickname

Just going by what Ben said at the top of the podcast I just linked, there's nothing definite, but the BOD's January meeting will likely consider making some changes.

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Thanks, I’ll keep an eye on the changes. For reasons, I’m most likely to start back up w irons next year in local matches. Based on my very limited number of previous matches (15 lifetime), what’s holding my scores down doesn’t have a lot to do with equipment, or reload restrictions.

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Originally Posted by JCN

I thought allowing Revo optics in Revo would help some aging Revo enthusiasts stay in division. Sure you’d get some complaints from purists… but there’s hardly anybody in division now.

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Revolver is dead. They killed it when they went to 8 rounds.

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Originally Posted by BN

Revolver is dead. They killed it when they went to 8 rounds.

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I guess, but how much of that is just evolution?

How popular is IDPA 6 shot Revo?

IMO, IDPA revolver is a much better application for Revo than USPSA type stages… and I was under the impression it wasn’t flourishing in popularity?

Steel challenge is the most competitive application of it, IMO.

Except for the specialists in ICORE, revolver shooting in any of the action sports is a niche, a SMALL niche.
This past season I shot Revolver a few times, I was one of three or one of two at the matches.

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Originally Posted by BN

Revolver is dead. They killed it when they went to 8 rounds.

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Interesting. Is that because most revolver shooters are not interested in custom otherwise useless 8-round wheel guns?

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

Interesting. Is that because most revolver shooters are not interested in custom otherwise useless 8-round wheel guns?

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As a single stack shooter, I will say having two extra rounds that score minor PF makes a big difference in where the division goes, especially when you lower the power factors.

Additionally you get a ton of local stage designers who prefer hosing stages and set up stages that have a ton of 4 target arrays.

That really sets the game to prefer someone who shoots an 8 shot .357 loaded with powder puff .38 Short Colt handloads or N frame 9mm moon clipped abortions.

USPSA might get a more interesting revo game if they allowed the 8 shot revolver guys to load to major PF and see where it goes from there.

But USPSA revolver is dead and single stack with it.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

Interesting. Is that because most revolver shooters are not interested in custom otherwise useless 8-round wheel guns?

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There were a lot of people with 6 round S&W 625s plus a lot of people who had other 6 shot revolvers. At the time I wrote my AC and I had looked up how many S&W Model 10s that had been made. I think it was several million. None of those guns are now competitive in USPSA Revolver.

Now, to be competitive you needed to buy a new revolver, holster and assorted gear plus work up a load that needed to be a handload because there was no factory ammo that was competitive. I think people just said forget it (or probably they used other words) and just took an auto loader out of the safe.

It made me mad and I let my membership lapse.

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Originally Posted by BN

There were a lot of people with 6 round S&W 625s plus a lot of people who had other 6 shot revolvers. At the time I wrote my AC and I had looked up how many S&W Model 10s that had been made. I think it was several million. None of those guns are now competitive in USPSA Revolver.

Now, to be competitive you needed to buy a new revolver, holster and assorted gear plus work up a load that needed to be a handload because there was no factory ammo that was competitive. I think people just said forget it (or probably they used other words) and just took an auto loader out of the safe.

It made me mad and I let my membership lapse.

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You may have been in a rule set prior to my membership in USPSA, but as far as I know a model 10 would never have been competitive. Shooting minor with speed loaders vs major with moonclips? Not to mention N frame weight. The game basically required a 625, just like now it basically requires a 929.

Revolver was dead before the ruleset change. For what it's worth I know a few people that started revo because of the rule change. They were 9mm shooters and thought what the hell. In the end all the money gets spent on ammo not equipment anyway.

I think practiscore made people a lot more interested in overall finishes too. It just isn't that fun to have an awesome revo day and get beat by a C class carry optics shooter.

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Originally Posted by bofe954

You may have been in a rule set prior to my membership in USPSA, but as far as I know a model 10 would never have been competitive. Shooting minor with speed loaders vs major with moonclips?

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I have had the pleasure to shoot 4 major matches at the same time as Jerry M. At 2 of them I was on his squad.

At 2 of the matches, I shot a Major moon clip gun and the other 2 I shot a minor 4" Model 10 with speedloaders. At each of the matches, I shot 60% to 65% of Jerry's score. Basically the same scores. I was just as competitive with the Model 10 as with the major moon clip gun.

Early on in the change to 8 round minor, some of the top shooters tried to compete with their old 6 shot major gun. They didn't do well.

Not to mention all the problems trying to get the 9mm revolvers to run.

One year before the change, we had 3 full squads of revolver shooters at The Nationals.

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Originally Posted by GJM

. . . modified for some perceived advantage.

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"Perceived," being the operative word. Most people could work off the shelf guns all the way through A class, by working on the actual shooting, and moving skills, before minor advantages in the pistol itself would start showing any advantage.

I'm running a stock (except for sights) Glock 19 Gen 5, in Limited. The sights are nothing special eithrr, just Ameriglo Agent sights. I'm a long way from worrying about Major vs Minor, or any slight advantage a different trigger might offer.

When I am solidly established in A class, and [b]IF[b] I determine slight equipment gains will help me get into M, then I'll think about setting up a gaming gun. However, The big gains are to be made in gun handling, and movement, not tweaks to my stock Glock.

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Originally Posted by cheby

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion... Strictly from a timmie point of view. I would like to have a timmie division. That used to be Production. Weight limit, no modification, no Shadow 2 types of steel tanks. Don't really care about capacity... More important: increase a minimum power factor to at least 150, ideally to 160 to match real +p ammo. Shooting major PF ammo from a Limited gun is much closer to shooting +P ammo 9mm from a polymer gun. Don't get me wrong - I love Shadow 2, used to have 5 in various configuration. But let's face it - shooting soft 125 PF ammo from 50oz gun is different. Just strictly from a Timmie perspective.

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Here’s Rob Leatham’s recent post on Facebook. Kind of the same point:

The difference between a 59 oz striker fired 125 pf gun and a 1911 style firing mechanism 59 oz 125 pf gun is insignificant.
I believe porting and venting of gasses in any manner constitutes compensating.
Apply the usage to whatever division you like. There are sensible arguments to be made for and against.
That the SS division is now the lightest weight limit and most compact division is silly.
We no longer have a practical division.
The 125 PF thing is a holdover from a time when we wanted .38 special revolvers of questionable strength to be able to make minor.
I still believe in power in the real world.

The problem is if we now consider the 9x19 round to be the standard and sufficient it should be at a power level commonly encountered. Which is not 125. 125 is silly.
I’d be on board with a single PF if it were relative to the ammo used for duty or defense. 140-150 is more appropriate.
However as we turn the sport more and more into a video game rather than a martial skills training and testing ground, I’m sure the masses will feel different.
There are those that think we should shoot 22LR