The (ma)lingering question re: CCW instruction, with emphasis re: female students

With apologies in advance, I couldn't decide which forum fit this the best, so mods, feel free to move or direct me to do so...

I'm an occassional CCW instructor in No. Colorado. It is definitely more of an avocation than a vocation as I don't advertise, participants tend to be friends or friends and family of friends, and classes are kept intenitonally small (4 - 8 students). My class exceeds the state of CO requirements in that I require a live-fire portion. I don't feel comfortable "certifying" anyone whom I have not seen handle and safely operate a live weapon. My marksmanship requirements are extremely modest: Safely demonstrate firearms handling and the proficiency to consistently hit an 8" target (paper plate) at 1, 3, and 5 yds. Students do not draw or shoot from concealment, or even a holster. It is most definitely a cold range.

Approximately 4 hrs are spent in "classroom," including safety, different handgun/ammunition types, cleaning/caring for/storing weapons, legal issues, the fundamentals of shooting, and conflict avoidance, including Cooper's colors and Boyd's OODA Loop. I make painfully clear in my presentation that this is the beginning, and that it is vitally important that they seek out qualified instruction in firearms, either from me or elsewhere, and that they practice their skills. The range portion is typically ~90 mins. long.

My experience over the past several years is that essentially none of the participants have any sort of formal handgun training. Some have never fired a handgun, some "...grew up around guns," mostly rifles and big-game hunting, and a few were in the military long ago, but were trained in rifles. It is not uncommon for me to have paticipants new to shooting, particularly women. I find that these female shooters are often the best students, but also often have a hard time with the semi-autos which have been recommended to them.

I have never had a student "fail" the live fire portion, but that is because I am literally coaching them directly, and repeatedly, and we are from 1-5 yds on a large target. Left to their own devices, who knows? I haven't left them to their own devices because I feel part of my responsibility is to teach and coach. I could increase the live-fire portion, but by how much. Even a 6hr class makes a long day for participants.

So, I have a couple of dilemmas... One is that, I VERY RARELY have a student follow up with actual firearms training, either with me, or elsewhere. Granted, I don't pretend to know what each person has done, but I definitely have a sense... I recognize that, at the brass tacks level, it is up to each individual to be responsible for him/herself and their decisions, and that, had they not received the training from me, they would likely simply attend one of the larger, less expensive (Groupon-attractive) $50 4-hr classroom-only classes, and the result would be the same--they met their requirement. Still, it bugs me...

My bigger question is regarding the complete novices, and particularly female participants who struggle with the (perceived) complexity of an auto, the relative difficulty in reliably and safely manipulating the slide, etc., but who also struggle with the stiff DA pull of a J-frame. I started bringing my J-frame to classes because I thought it was the answer. It has not had any trigger work done, so it is stiff, but perfectly manageable (to me), but my female students sometimes have a hard time even pulling the trigger, just as they have a hard time with the slide of various compact and sub-compact autos.

I don't know how I could push additional training any more without coming across like a pushy used car salesman. I also don't know what a better option is, particularly for female students in the situation I've described. It seems like the upshot is that I can fully expect my class participants (all of whom are wonderful, guy/gal next door type of people) to not train more than these minimal requirements, and I'm not even sure what to recommend, particularly to my novice female clients with upper-body strength concerns.

I welcome your feedback, suggestions, and critique, particularly regarding those two essential concerns.

If you feel strongly enough about it, maybe a slightly stepped down caliber semiautomatic that is reasonably rackable is a worthwhile investment to let them try. Maybe they'll end up getting one and have something that they can use/enjoy enough to train more and "graduate" up to something bigger later. Shield EZ or Ruger LCP?

Could you offer a follow-up class coupon? Lots of people buy lots of stuff they don’t need every day because there’s a sale or a coupon offered making “deals too good to pass up.”

Could you offer the use of a pistol with an easier trigger and action? My kiddos first gun use was a Ruger MKII. When I start a new shooter, it’s almost always on a .22 of some kind. G44 is a new favorite for that. They’re just super easy to run.

Kudos for helping people out and requiring a shooting portion when it isn’t required by the state. I have mixed feelings about requiring classes before allowing people to exercise any civil right, but guns are dangerous and require instruction in order to handle safely. People should be responsible enough to seek out instruction anyway, but many (most?) will not unless it is required of them. My first state permit required a class, but the only weapon proficiency portion was loading and unloading with dummy rounds. When I got a nonresident permit from another state, there was no class required at all. When I first got an Arizona permit, there was a class requirement of 16 hours, which had to include state mandated material and live fire proficiency of at least 4 hours.

Quite the disparity in requirements from state to state.

At least your preparation ensures they know how to not shoot themselves while administratively manipulating the thing.

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Originally Posted by dogcaller

With apologies in advance, I couldn't decide which forum fit this the best, so mods, feel free to move or direct me to do so...

I'm an occassional CCW instructor in No. Colorado. It is definitely more of an avocation than a vocation as I don't advertise, participants tend to be friends or friends and family of friends, and classes are kept intenitonally small (4 - 8 students). My class exceeds the state of CO requirements in that I require a live-fire portion. I don't feel comfortable "certifying" anyone whom I have not seen handle and safely operate a live weapon. My marksmanship requirements are extremely modest: Safely demonstrate firearms handling and the proficiency to consistently hit an 8" target (paper plate) at 1, 3, and 5 yds. Students do not draw or shoot from concealment, or even a holster. It is most definitely a cold range.

So, I have a couple of dilemmas... One is that, I VERY RARELY have a student follow up with actual firearms training, either with me, or elsewhere. Granted, I don't pretend to know what each person has done, but I definitely have a sense... I recognize that, at the brass tacks level, it is up to each individual to be responsible for him/herself and their decisions, and that, had they not received the training from me, they would likely simply attend one of the larger, less expensive (Groupon-attractive) $50 4-hr classroom-only classes, and the result would be the same--they met their requirement. Still, it bugs me...

My bigger question is regarding the complete novices, and particularly female participants who struggle with the (perceived) complexity of an auto, the relative difficulty in reliably and safely manipulating the slide, etc., but who also struggle with the stiff DA pull of a J-frame. I started bringing my J-frame to classes because I thought it was the answer. It has not had any trigger work done, so it is stiff, but perfectly manageable (to me), but my female students sometimes have a hard time even pulling the trigger, just as they have a hard time with the slide of various compact and sub-compact autos.

I don't know how I could push additional training any more without coming across like a pushy used car salesman. I also don't know what a better option is, particularly for female students in the situation I've described. It seems like the upshot is that I can fully expect my class participants (all of whom are wonderful, guy/gal next door type of people) to not train more than these minimal requirements, and I'm not even sure what to recommend, particularly to my novice female clients with upper-body strength concerns.

I welcome your feedback, suggestions, and critique, particularly regarding those two essential concerns.

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1) I echo getting, for example, a Shield EZ, for those with lesser grip strength to use. Also echo starting out with .22's. The important thing is to get them on the road safely.

2) You say that most of your students are in someway connected to you - participants tend to be friends or friends and family of friends - have you ever followed up and invited them to do more shooting with you?

3) Have you considered making the class a two-day event? with a short first day and a longer block of range training on the next day? Say Friday evening and most of the day Saturday?

4) If you are training enough females to make a small pistol league - why not start a women's rim fire challenge or similar adventure. I'm toying with taking the NRA Action Pistol courses of fire and modifying them to be shot from the ready as one idea. My problem is advertising and an already full schedule on weekends at our gun club.

Just some ideas. Kudos to you for putting in the work to make new shooters.

Before I offer my opinions and suggestions I'll qualify that I've only been a fledgling instructor since the beginning of the year, in basic pistol classes not intended to be taken into defensive context. Prior to that I was, and still am, mostly a training enthusiast, though I've taken some instructor development. None of my ideas are original and I apologize in advance for anybody's messages I'm about to garble, or anything you've already thought of.

I've seen incredibly few trainers email a pre-class questionnaire getting to know their students' backgrounds and expectations, which more importantly provides an opportunity for the students to put undefined thoughts and feelings into written words that may or may or may not be said to you in person. When I took Ian Strimbeck's classes, this also included a self-assessment of skills of what they felt they could and could not do well. I don't remember if it included skills that were beyond the scope of the class, i.e. medical or unarmed techniques, but I think it would be worth bringing up.

Firearms education is education by any other name. I'm guessing you probably have pens and notepads ready in the classroom, or tell students to bring note-taking material in the list of items to bring. Tom Givens is adamant about preparing a handout for them to keep regardless of whether they take notes or not. I like that he has a good dry-practice program in his, when I went through Intensive Pistol.

Follow-up emails after class may go a long way toward thanking students again for their time, reminding them of key bullet point takeaways of what you guys went over, and any personalized individual feedback you managed to gather. Tim Herron takes copious notes and gave me about four paragraphs' worth both times I've taken his 2-day Pistol Performance but it doesn't have to be that much; Jeremy Bennett took one Coach's Eye video of each student and gave each of us an index card that he tried to put at least two points in our technique to improve on, with one point we were doing good on. The follow-up is also a great place to plug additional training that you and others offer.

At the end of my last time with Tim Herron, John Correia noted that of many handgun classes he's been through, Tim was one of the few that had a pre-class AND post-class standard that were the same thing, to show measurable improvement in the students' performance. I know John has his own; Tim's is in the form of the USPSA-style stage that everyone attempts cold on the morning of day one, and does again at the end of day two. However, I think there are plenty of good reasons to have the pre- and post- be different though, i.e. if the finishing course of fire is for a prize, especially if it is relatively well-known. Something like warming up with a couple minutes of dry practice at Gabe White's PSS to get a feel for everyone's confidence, perhaps with a small block of instruction first if there's any completely new shooters.

Since you don't incorporate holster draw, perhaps to drive the point home that they've only just begun might be to show them footage of a defensive concealed handgun use with a positive outcome that is as close to 'textbook' as you can approximate, and point out about how much time it took for the encounter to start and finish, and how much time it took for the defender to draw to first shot. Maybe also demonstrate the differences on a timer between starting from full presentation to the target, starting from low ready, and starting from the holster. Do you teach low ready? If you do, how would you feel about having the 'final exam' consist of each student firing one round at five yards from low ready on the timer individually, as everyone else watches? There would need to be some explanation of human reaction time to an anticipated stimuli, and what a timer is (and what it isn't). Just a heads-up, if you want to use videos from Active Self Protection, it's free if you're not charging your students, but if you do they want $40 for licensing.

Students struggling with racking the slide and/or locking it back has been a common occurrence for me. I walk them through what Kathy Jackson said. https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...ack-the-slide/

Some additional resources that came to mind while typing this up:

- Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training, by Karl Rehn and John Daub. Refer to their KR Training and Stuff From Hsoi blogs about 'Beyond the One Percent' and 'Minimum Competency for Defensive Pistol', respectively.

- Street Focused Handgun Training, Volume 1-3, by Ralph Mroz. If I taught CCW classes I'd write him up and get his permission to take a list of 25 things he made and make it a handout.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....73#post1071273

- Primary and Secondary ModCasts #214 (Helping New Shooters), Foundational Carry Concepts (Especially for Women); Civilian Carry Radio #129 (Judi Wells), #145 (Lou Ann Hamblin). Extended listening, but I think it is worth enduring the podcast format to get the nuggets.

- FBI Pistol Qualification. I like the things that Lucky Gunner, John Murphy, and Active Self Protection's dry fire challenge have all done with it.

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Originally Posted by Joe S

If you feel strongly enough about it, maybe a slightly stepped down caliber semiautomatic that is reasonably rackable is a worthwhile investment to let them try. Maybe they'll end up getting one and have something that they can use/enjoy enough to train more and "graduate" up to something bigger later. Shield EZ or Ruger LCP?

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That's a good idea. I don't own one of those, but a buddy does, and I could see how that works out before purchasing. If the recoil spring is appreciably lighter, which I imagine it is, that might be a good solution for that problem.

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Originally Posted by Duelist

Could you offer a follow-up class coupon? Lots of people buy lots of stuff they don’t need every day because there’s a sale or a coupon offered making “deals too good to pass up.”

The coupon is a really good idea. I'm not much of a marketer, but this is just simple and makes great sense, thanks!

Could you offer the use of a pistol with an easier trigger and action? My kiddos first gun use was a Ruger MKII. When I start a new shooter, it’s almost always on a .22 of some kind. G44 is a new favorite for that. They’re just super easy to run.

I definitely can. I have a few .22 semis and am thinking about an 3" LCRx as a DA trainer for myself, which could serve double-duty. The reason I haven't done this before is because I really think of my class as a CCW/CHP class, as opposed to a basic intro to firearms/handgun marksmanship class. The reality, however, is that most people need both--which I can't deliver with any quality in ~6 hrs. I think this is the crux of my angst--knowing that these good folks need a lot more than they are getting, but that they don't seek it out as I advise them to.

Kudos for helping people out and requiring a shooting portion when it isn’t required by the state. I have mixed feelings about requiring classes before allowing people to exercise any civil right, but guns are dangerous and require instruction in order to handle safely. People should be responsible enough to seek out instruction anyway, but many (most?) will not unless it is required of them. My first state permit required a class, but the only weapon proficiency portion was loading and unloading with dummy rounds. When I got a nonresident permit from another state, there was no class required at all. When I first got an Arizona permit, there was a class requirement of 16 hours, which had to include state mandated material and live fire proficiency of at least 4 hours.

Agreed. Before I started teaching the courses I leaned more toward the opinion that ther shouldn't be requirements. I now wish there was a live-fire requirement in all states, and that it was at least as rigorous as the (often watered down) minimal LEO requirements. (I also wish LEO standards were higher. That's not intended as a slam. I'm a big fan of LEO. Most of my friends and one of my brothers is LEO. They are also shooters, and one was a firearms instructor for his (large) dept. I've seen the standards and heard the horror stories...) I'm all for people exercising their rights, AND it's also true in my experience that many CCW holders have minimal skills in using weapons.

Quite the disparity in requirements from state to state.

At least your preparation ensures they know how to not shoot themselves while administratively manipulating the thing.

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Originally Posted by Dan Lehr

1) I echo getting, for example, a Shield EZ, for those with lesser grip strength to use. Also echo starting out with .22's. The important thing is to get them on the road safely.

2) You say that most of your students are in someway connected to you - participants tend to be friends or friends and family of friends - have you ever followed up and invited them to do more shooting with you?

Good question. At this point the participants tend to be friends/acquaintances of friends or family. For example, a friend called me to say that his financial advisor and 4 other ladies from her office want to take a CCW course, so that creates a class. I don't know them personally, but would certainly be willing to provide follow-on instruction for a (very) reasonable fee. In this instance, I already know that they are all essentially novices, so I will be offering a follow-on firearms-only training day. Friends and family are always invited.


3) Have you considered making the class a two-day event? with a short first day and a longer block of range training on the next day? Say Friday evening and most of the day Saturday?

I haven't. I find that it is often difficult to get people to commit 6.5 hrs, especially when (some of them) realize they could get the same "certification" after taking a class which is 4 hrs long, Groupon-friendly, and less expensive. With classes of 4-8, more typically 4-6, it really matters when even one or two drop out. Also, my own schedule makes Sunday classes much more practical than two-day classes.

4) If you are training enough females to make a small pistol league - why not start a women's rim fire challenge or similar adventure. I'm toying with taking the NRA Action Pistol courses of fire and modifying them to be shot from the ready as one idea. My problem is advertising and an already full schedule on weekends at our gun club.

At this point that's more than I am willing to take on. I only run a few classes per year, and the number of females is ~40%. And, I'm not confident that enough of those ladies are interested in taking up a new hobby (as opposed to "my husband thought I should take this course with him," etc., that it would be viable). The truth is, with three kids of my own at home and a very time intensive job, *I* don't get to the range or matches nearly as much as I would like.

Just some ideas. Kudos to you for putting in the work to make new shooters.

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I really appreciate your ideas and feedback, thank you!

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Originally Posted by Yung

Before I offer my opinions and suggestions I'll qualify that I've only been a fledgling instructor since the beginning of the year, in basic pistol classes not intended to be taken into defensive context. Prior to that I was, and still am, mostly a training enthusiast, though I've taken some instructor development. None of my ideas are original and I apologize in advance for anybody's messages I'm about to garble, or anything you've already thought of.

Great thinking and suggestions, many thanks!

I've seen incredibly few trainers email a pre-class questionnaire getting to know their students' backgrounds and expectations, which more importantly provides an opportunity for the students to put undefined thoughts and feelings into written words that may or may or may not be said to you in person. When I took Ian Strimbeck's classes, this also included a self-assessment of skills of what they felt they could and could not do well. I don't remember if it included skills that were beyond the scope of the class, i.e. medical or unarmed techniques, but I think it would be worth bringing up.

I could definitely do better with this. I'll have to think on a good question set, but I can definitely derive one. Participants tend to be good folks who feel like they know enough, but need to go jump through this hoop to get the cert., or good folks who really don't know anything but want to learn. Both groups inevitably learn something. I could formalize both my pre and post-class interactions through a questionnaire and feedback form.

Firearms education is education by any other name. I'm guessing you probably have pens and notepads ready in the classroom, or tell students to bring note-taking material in the list of items to bring. Tom Givens is adamant about preparing a handout for them to keep regardless of whether they take notes or not. I like that he has a good dry-practice program in his, when I went through Intensive Pistol.

Yes, I provide a paper copy of my slide deck.

Follow-up emails after class may go a long way toward thanking students again for their time, reminding them of key bullet point takeaways of what you guys went over, and any personalized individual feedback you managed to gather. Tim Herron takes copious notes and gave me about four paragraphs' worth both times I've taken his 2-day Pistol Performance but it doesn't have to be that much; Jeremy Bennett took one Coach's Eye video of each student and gave each of us an index card that he tried to put at least two points in our technique to improve on, with one point we were doing good on. The follow-up is also a great place to plug additional training that you and others offer.

Agreed about the follow-up emails. I'm not much of a marketer, but this is such a "gimme" that I should have dont it all along. I believe the feedback cards would be helpful during a follow-on, pistol-instruction class. During the live-fire portion of the CCW class it is really just demonstrating basic safety, with not enough reps to give meaningful feedback--because they haven't really had enough reps to make meaningful growth. It's intended as a "check," rather than instruction, though it almost always incorporates both.

At the end of my last time with Tim Herron, John Correia noted that of many handgun classes he's been through, Tim was one of the few that had a pre-class AND post-class standard that were the same thing, to show measurable improvement in the students' performance. I know John has his own; Tim's is in the form of the USPSA-style stage that everyone attempts cold on the morning of day one, and does again at the end of day two. However, I think there are plenty of good reasons to have the pre- and post- be different though, i.e. if the finishing course of fire is for a prize, especially if it is relatively well-known. Something like warming up with a couple minutes of dry practice at Gabe White's PSS to get a feel for everyone's confidence, perhaps with a small block of instruction first if there's any completely new shooters.

This would definitely be useful in a pistol training class rather than a CCW class. Just need to get them to sign up for a pistol instruction class! The email follow-ups may help with that.

Since you don't incorporate holster draw, perhaps to drive the point home that they've only just begun might be to show them footage of a defensive concealed handgun use with a positive outcome that is as close to 'textbook' as you can approximate, and point out about how much time it took for the encounter to start and finish, and how much time it took for the defender to draw to first shot. Maybe also demonstrate the differences on a timer between starting from full presentation to the target, starting from low ready, and starting from the holster. Do you teach low ready? If you do, how would you feel about having the 'final exam' consist of each student firing one round at five yards from low ready on the timer individually, as everyone else watches? There would need to be some explanation of human reaction time to an anticipated stimuli, and what a timer is (and what it isn't). Just a heads-up, if you want to use videos from Active Self Protection, it's free if you're not charging your students, but if you do they want $40 for licensing.

I like it!

Students struggling with racking the slide and/or locking it back has been a common occurrence for me. I walk them through what Kathy Jackson said. https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...ack-the-slide/

Yes, I was thinking about following up with an email about Cornered Cat to all female students.

Some additional resources that came to mind while typing this up:

- Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training, by Karl Rehn and John Daub. Refer to their KR Training and Stuff From Hsoi blogs about 'Beyond the One Percent' and 'Minimum Competency for Defensive Pistol', respectively.

- Street Focused Handgun Training, Volume 1-3, by Ralph Mroz. If I taught CCW classes I'd write him up and get his permission to take a list of 25 things he made and make it a handout.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....73#post1071273

- Primary and Secondary ModCasts #214 (Helping New Shooters), Foundational Carry Concepts (Especially for Women); Civilian Carry Radio #129 (Judi Wells), #145 (Lou Ann Hamblin). Extended listening, but I think it is worth enduring the podcast format to get the nuggets.

- FBI Pistol Qualification. I like the things that Lucky Gunner, John Murphy, and Active Self Protection's dry fire challenge have all done with it.

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I'll have to check these out, as I'm not familiar with all of them. Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by dogcaller

Agreed. Before I started teaching the courses I leaned more toward the opinion that ther shouldn't be requirements. I now wish there was a live-fire requirement in all states, and that it was at least as rigorous as the (often watered down) minimal LEO requirements. (I also wish LEO standards were higher. That's not intended as a slam. I'm a big fan of LEO. Most of my friends and one of my brothers is LEO. They are also shooters, and one was a firearms instructor for his (large) dept. I've seen the standards and heard the horror stories...) I'm all for people exercising their rights, AND it's also true in my experience that many CCW holders have minimal skills in using weapons.

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One of my good friends runs some CCW classes in Riverside County CA. He requires that the students shoot the old POST qualification course 12 rounds at 3, 7, and 15 yards with a reload on the clock at each location. He also requires shooting from the holster. He has had a few people fail, but he works with them until they can pass.

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Originally Posted by Flamingo

One of my good friends runs some CCW classes in Riverside County CA. He requires that the students shoot the old POST qualification course 12 rounds at 3, 7, and 15 yards with a reload on the clock at each location. He also requires shooting from the holster. He has had a few people fail, but he works with them until they can pass.

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Small world! I grew up in San Bernardino county and counted myself as lucky for being able to obtain a CCW permit in SoCal. I had heard Riv. Co. issued some too, but that it was a bit trickeir--not sure if that was true or not. Moved to No. Colorado in 2007. 15 yds with a reload on the clock would definitley be a challenge for many new shooters. How long (in hours) is your buddy's class?

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Originally Posted by dogcaller

Small world! I grew up in San Bernardino county and counted myself as lucky for being able to obtain a CCW permit in SoCal. I had heard Riv. Co. issued some too, but that it was a bit trickeir--not sure if that was true or not. Moved to No. Colorado in 2007. 15 yds with a reload on the clock would definitley be a challenge for many new shooters. How long (in hours) is your buddy's class?

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His initial course is 4 hours on the range and 4 hours in the class room. The every two year requal is 4 hours on the range.

The time hack is pretty slow 30 seconds at 3 and 7 yards and 45 seconds at 15 yards on a b21 target. The required score to pass is 30/36. He regularly has people pass with J frames and two reloads per string.

He is a retired CDC Special Agent (he ran a lot of the range work for parole agents) and it took him almost two years to get the approvals from the county to teach the course.

When I visit him I usually help with the line if there are classes going. I am by no means an expert pistolero but I have been taking training and classes for 25 years. I went into the first beginner class with him thinking that requiring training for carrying was a ridiculous infringement of a persons right to self defense (and I still lean that way), but seeing how badly/ignorantly untrained people handle their handguns was eyeopening. He always tells his students (especially if they are new) to seek additional training, even if it is not from him, between requalification periods.

His webpage is: https://www.aftcllc.com/.

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Originally Posted by dogcaller

I really appreciate your ideas and feedback, thank you!

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You bet. One difference in the way we might approach things is our ages - my kids are grown, and I've been retired four years (thank you uncle sugar).

At this point money isn't really a motivating factor, and neither is time. I might feel differently in a couple years when my wife retires.

I understand completely about the time thing, sometimes if time is the constraint you have to accept sub-optimal results.

Good luck.

Maybe recommend a virtual shooting range as an option for additional training.

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Originally Posted by dogcaller

Approximately 4 hrs are spent in "classroom," including safety, different handgun/ammunition types, cleaning/caring for/storing weapons, legal issues, the fundamentals of shooting, and conflict avoidance, including Cooper's colors and Boyd's OODA Loop. I make painfully clear in my presentation that this is the beginning, and that it is vitally important that they seek out qualified instruction in firearms, either from me or elsewhere, and that they practice their skills. The range portion is typically ~90 mins. long.

My experience over the past several years is that essentially none of the participants have any sort of formal handgun training. Some have never fired a handgun, some "...grew up around guns," mostly rifles and big-game hunting, and a few were in the military long ago, but were trained in rifles. It is not uncommon for me to have paticipants new to shooting, particularly women. I find that these female shooters are often the best students, but also often have a hard time with the semi-autos which have been recommended to them.

I have never had a student "fail" the live fire portion, but that is because I am literally coaching them directly, and repeatedly, and we are from 1-5 yds on a large target. Left to their own devices, who knows? I haven't left them to their own devices because I feel part of my responsibility is to teach and coach. I could increase the live-fire portion, but by how much. Even a 6hr class makes a long day for participants.

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I'm going to be blunt, but I'm not trying to be nasty.

(1) If I want to set someone up to receive more shooting advice from me, I don't coach hard at all. Briefly, I do "keep the muzzle pointed this way", "finger off the trigger", with basic loading/unloading and a super-short sight picture if they're super-new. If they're having fun and I'm approachable, they'll ask me stuff. If they don't ask me stuff, I might let them shoot for a bit and go, "Hey, try getting your hand higher on the gun and moving your support hand up here...see how the muzzle didn't jump as much?". Uber-intensive coaching is great when they're paying for and asking for super-intensive coaching, but for an intro, I focus on barebones safety and letting them shoot and have fun. That being said, I've gotten some stellar improvement out of folks with just a little nudge here and there. One lady went from not hitting the paper at 7 to one-ragged-hole in two or three pointers.

(2) After four hours of classroom instruction, even I'm ready to jam a pen through my eyes. I would also suggest that you're packing "CHL License I" with sample-size versions of "CCW Class II" topics like gun maintenance and ammo selection, and "Intro to Pistol" like different types of guns. Yes, by including less stuff, you're theoretically leaving them less prepared. But by jamming in too many topics, you're lowering the amount of instruction they retain. And now that they've had samples of ammo, cleaning, storage, etc etc, they feel like they've "covered everything". From your list, I would say that the only topics really deserving of a licensing-level class are storage (and the responsibilities thereof), legal requirements (including reasonable man standards, imminent/grave/unavoidable threats, and duties to retreat), and something like a "rule of stupids" talk, perhaps with a little "now that you have a gun, no more screaming matches in the grocery parking lot" and "you are not a cop". If you're not already, I would break the classroom portions up into 50-minute chunks with 10-minute breaks at the end.

(3) I have the same slide-racking problem with a minority of female shooters, and it drives me nuts how shitty my success rate is at that. I had a woman that I just could not help--push-pull didn't work, off-hand-over didn't work, taking out my lightly-sprung G34 didn't work. Couldn't work a slide at all, never had a hand or arm injury, no history of RSI. Now, that said, I find that a great many women (and more than a few men) who are new to shooting are afraid of hurting the gun--I think more so than the number that need help working on slide manipulation techniques. My usual approach is to explain that the slide moves more quickly and violently in firing than you could ever move it with your hand, move on to explaining "manipulating with confidence" and why it's important, and then demonstrate by handling my own guns while they watch. A smaller proportion of shooters, especially those that are very new (and, anecdotally, women that have overbearing "expert" and "safe" shooter husbands) are absolutely terrified of letting the muzzle wander, and are manipulating the gun gingerly because they're afraid of making a mistake, and benefit from being shown how to do things like index the trigger finger on the frame, controlling the muzzle while racking the slide, or even how to maintain a firm grip during a slide rack.

Give us a follow-up! I'd really like to hear how things have been going with you and your students in the last couple months.

A few comments, and I'll start by saying that I have relatively little firearm instruction experience, although in my RSO role I'm increasingly having new shooters who want to learn handed off to me by the lead RSO, and I've also brought several female colleagues from the office to the range and spent time getting them started. So these are in many cases observations.

First, thank you for exceeding state standards. I've never had the slightest hesitation advocating for reasonable training requirements. With freedom comes responsibility. Firearms are potentially dangerous, so there's nothing unreasonable about demonstrating a basic level of competence... in the same way that some training is required before we can legally get behind the wheel of an automobile. It won't always prevent someone from doing damage to others, but I'm pretty sure it greatly reduces the frequency.

For comparison, California's CCW requirement is 16 hours of training with a live fire requirement, it's almost always one long classroom day and then the second day on the range, that second day in practice is usually more like 4-5 hours depending on class size. Renewal every two years requires a short legal refresher, usually we show up for that hour of day one, and then a slightly shortened live fire component. Standards vary greatly; one of the local instructors only requires 20 of 25 in the black on a torso-sized bowling pin shape at 12 yards, while another has students work from the holster on an outdoor range at distances from 5 to 15 yards, with smaller targets, number of shots at each distance announced seconds before the beep, and more challenging scoring. I encourage more experienced shooters to do their quals with that latter fellow.

We get a lot of new shooters at the range where I RSO most often, and our lead there brings a case of various pistols and revolvers every evening we're open and he allows shooters to try a variety of things under his close supervision. I agree that on average, women have been better students in that situation and some become respectable slow-fire shooters after only a few visits. Certainly I've seen hand strength issues and few do well with a J-frame, although more than a few have done well with K-frames, especially older S&W's with smooth triggers.

We... the lead RSO, and me when I'm coaching friends or helping out... both tend to start first time shooters with 22 LR, great way to teach basics and check on attention to safety. It's hard to get some of them to move up to anything bigger, and a few take one shot with a service pistol caliber and say uh-uh, not for me. A few weeks ago an off duty Sheriff's deputy asked me to coach him, which I thought was admirable (that he still wants to learn), and it was an eye opener to see that he had an obvious flinch and poor accuracy with his duty .40 Glock, and shot his son's TDA 9mm a whole lot more effectively.

The really frustrating ones are the handful of regulars who show up every week, spray a box of ammo downrange, and still can barely stay on the paper. I've watched a few do this for years with no improvement, still patterns rather than groups, and no interest in learning. Even among the shooters who want to get better, only a handful of us have sought out serious out of the area training. So, not sure what to say about that one, I haven't figured out a way to make them both want to learn and then follow through and do the work.

The other range I RSO at (mostly long guns, plus a few 25-yard pistol stations) has a lot of old timers who are excellent shooters, as well as some younger guys who are recent military or are into competition. Different demographic, different level of motivation and attention to detail. And that range is members only, which has got to be a factor.

I've just recently gotten my certification to instruct concealed carry in ohio and I'm putting together my curriculum ( which by the way is a bit more intensive than I had thought it may be).
I've done a fair amount of coaching and I've to this point never had someone not be able to operate the slide the method that I teach, on my very well worn p250, is support hand over, and rotate at the hips while keeping the firearm in the same place. A persons hips are significantly stronger than their arms or shoulders.

This does bring me to another question, however. I have been asked about doing some "first shots" classes with several elderly woman. A few of them are... small. At ~100 lbs, and 80+ im working on trying to figure out if they have the strength to safely handle a firearm without actually putting one in their hands. I've reached out to several mentors who have come back with " thats a really good question. Let me do some digging" one did tell me to have them hold dumb bells out in a firing position to see if they have the ability to hold a pistol, which I like. Perhaps starting each of them with a moderately heavily frames .22 lr in single action with one round may work? Does anyone have any ideas?

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You have to accept a hard reality:

There is only so much people can absorb in a day.

I know what you're trying to do. The urge to give them what they absolutely need to know, in your opinion, is strong.

They can't absorb that.

What we end up doing is packing way too much into that single day, and they don't enjoy the experience. So of course they don't want to train again.

You can roll in with 20 pounds of material, but the people showing up to this who are new at it are utterly bewildered by what's happening just in terms of safely managing a live weapon. We are asking them do to things we have spent decades becoming proficient at, and often they are physically unskilled. By that I mean that most people are not doing any sort of athletic physical endeavor. Whether we think of it in these terms or not, shooting is a form of athletic endeavor. We are asking them to apply kinesthetic skills that they do not have. It literally takes mental concentration for them to activate their muscles to, for instance, grip a gun. When they have to actually consciously work to coordinate their muscles to grip a handgun. And oh, by the way, they're being asked to do this around a bunch of other people with guns who are just as bewildered as they are, and they're actually pretty fucking worried about negligently endangering someone else's life.

You can present all 20 pounds of material, but most are showing up with a 2 pound pail. Some less than that. Some have a thimble.

You have absolutely no control over what specific material they take with them.

Meet them where they are. Make them a little bit better than you found them. Ensure that they have fun in the process.

One of the reasons people don't take more than one class is because well-meaning instructors jam a firehose in their face and try to cram 80 hours worth of material into 8. It doesn't work.

In 8 hours with newbies, if you can get them to understand how to live the four rules of firearms safety in their daily lives, and you can get them to draw a gun without shooting themselves and actually hit a target with it, then you have achieved all it is really possible to achieve with a typical newbie to this. Even then, that's STILL a great deal to actually get done in a single day.

Yes, they should know pre-assault cues, police interaction when armed, pepper spray, stopping bleeding, and all the other skills we've collected over a long period of intensive study.

But me throwing all that out there doesn't make them know it any more than you sitting in 8 hours of classroom and lab with a neurosurgeon will give you any real hope of performing neurosurgery.

One of the best things you can do for yourself is go take a class in something you know absolutely nothing about designed for beginners. Something that is alien to anything you know. Put yourself in the shoes of the people coming to you and have their experience and use that as a reference for how you structure your classes.

If you have state mandated curriculum then you have to cover that...but cover it with an eye towards the realities of adult learning.

Make peace with this simple truth: You cannot make them what we want them to be in a day. All you can do is leave them a little better off than they were when they came to you. You can build a solid foundation they can then build on later. Build the foundation of safe handling and basic competence. They need to know the gun is there for Immediate Defense Of Life.

That's about all you can do in a day.

During this entire time you are alternating your role between presenting authority, coach, and cheerleader. You present material with brevity and authority. You coach where it is necessary. And you make sure you celebrate success. When they get something right, no matter how small, you point that out and you make a big damn deal out of it. Especially in front of others. Coach to correct softly, but shout the successes from the rooftop. When you take the time to recognize success and the eyes of the class are on them for having done well at something, it changes the experience for them and for everyone else. They get to be recognized in front of a group of people for success at something they were nervous to approach in the first place. Everybody else gets to see that you're jazzed about their successes.

Everybody comes away believing you are on their team.

That is what will make them come back to other classes. I can't scare someone into taking more training, but I can make sure they taste success and get the impression that this is something they can do.

LE and military training, at least in theory, is designed to weed out the unworthy. (Although failing people in either endeavor is unacceptable these days) In private training we're here to help the willing. If they come away with useful skills and the entire time the vibe they got from you is "Let's do this together!" then they're highly likely to see you again so you can dig deeper and develop more skills and knowledge.

Craig's ECQC is a good model.

It's not someone's first class. It's usually their "I've already got a dozen certificates" class. Or they're coming at it from a combatives background.

Even so, every person that takes ECQC tastes success. Yeah, there's crushing defeat, but every person gets to experience a moment or two where they think "I can do this", and that's what keeps them from quitting.

That taste of success needs to be there for beginners. Not to lie to them. We're not lying to them. We're making them understand that with work and good coaching, they can do this. And they need that to lean on if they're going to pursue more training...or if they actually have to use these skills for real.

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Originally Posted by TCinVA

You have to accept a hard reality........

That taste of success needs to be there for beginners. Not to lie to them. We're not lying to them. We're making them understand that with work and good coaching, they can do this. And they need that to lean on if they're going to pursue more training...or if they actually have to use these skills for real.

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Dayum! That was a very, very, informative post. Put words to things most of us have to learn by trial and error. Thanks for taking the time!

Everybody loves Tim Chandler.

I wish he'd compile his longer posts into an ebook so I could say that I'd pay twenty bucks for it but then welch out if he actually did it.

But seriously, please consider it. My list of p-f favorited/bookmark links has too many with your name on them and the list is long enough as it is.

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Originally Posted by Yung

Everybody loves Tim Chandler.

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You've never met any of my exes, I take it.

A field trip to an entry level shootin' match? Doesn't matter what flavor, defensive pistol, pin shoot, wild west or whatever. Just something that may infect the susceptible.

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Originally Posted by Yung

Everybody loves Tim Chandler.

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Myeh, he's ok.

I guess.

( :D )

This is from my own experience with my wife and my buddy’s wife.
They both took the CCW 5 years ago and my wife just renewed hers.

Have a 22LR available like people have said. Having them feel encouraged rather than discouraged is important. They both came back from the initial class excited and open to more.

My wife doesn’t dry fire and only goes to the range a few times a year if that.

But when we go, I have her shoot a G34 with weak gamer ammo and a softer recoil spring. It also has grip tape on the slide to help rack.

She knows how to do it but also knows her limitations. Her carry gun is a 4” Model 66 revolver with 38 special because of the reasons the OP suggested. But they have to come to that conclusion themselves and being kind and supportive lets them get there sooner.

This was a “carjacking” drill we set up for her. 10 yards to 8” rectangles or so.

https://youtu.be/E_D6hUPLSMs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yung

Give us a follow-up! I'd really like to hear how things have been going with you and your students in the last couple months.

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It's been a while, but I now have some time to report. Thanks, all, for your feedback.

I incorporated some of it into my last class, which was in late summer.

I definitely understand the "less is more" feedback. That's kind of the crux of my dilemma. My past experiences and intuition indicate that most participants will view this course more as a hoop to jump through than the beginning of necessary training (which is what I advocate). As such, I think perhaps the most important thing I can do is help them to keep themselves safer by maintaining situational awareness and thereby avoiding conflicts. If I had to choose what type of lessons I would want my young-adult daughter or her group of friends to receive, it would definitely be that as opposed to gun handling.

On the other hand, it is a CCW/CHL course and so it needs to include information about firearms safety and use, as well as a very cursory introduction to the use of lethal force (essentially I just explain the language that the County provides them on the matter, with a few what-ifs and examples). It also makes sense to share some basic lessons we've all learned about carrying a weapon. The trade-offs between OWB/IWB/off-body, etc. The firearms safety portion is all that is required by the state, so I definitely need to do that, and, as I said before, I don't feel comfortable "signing off" on anyone whom I have not seen safely operating a handgun. With introductions, background, discussion, Q&A and breaks, those four hours pass quickly, but not at an uncomfortable pace. In my past couple of classes I have taught how to safely clean a handgun and (for the sake of time) gave them the option of skipping the actual cleaning portion. In each case they wanted to learn how to clean their particular handguns, using the equipment I provided.

In my last class, I incorporated the Correia Active Self Protection videos as well as John Murphy's pre-assault indicators video (with permission). In that sense, I added content to my presentation, but it was definitely value-added. Those are eye-opening, and sobering.

For that class, I borrowed a friend's LCP .380 for some of the female shooters to try and also brought a couple of my .22 autos. I also sent a more detailed pre-class questionnaire and created a coupon of sorts for additional training. I had always offered additional training before, but it wasn't written down as to what exactly it would entail. More of a "contact me for more" type of thing.

This class was the largest I have ever taught, with nine participants. It was an extended family group, comprising of the patriarch, who was pushing 80, his kids, in-laws, and adult grandchildren. Great folks.

It is interesting because, after the class, six of the participants asked to do additional training. I'm sure that the fact that they are a family group and want to continue to train together has something to do with it. But it's also true that the class just felt really successful. It wasn't easy. I would say that two of the participants were reasonably safe and competent shooters, with good previous experience, if not training. The rest was a grab-bag of an Aussie (son-in-law) who was given a 2nd gen S&W TDA, a woman with arthritis who handled a 22/45 quite well, and an assortment of newbies with a variety of SFA autos. Oh yes, and one woman with a .380 and Crimson Trace grips, but which was not even close to being zeroed.

I received really strong, positive feedback from several participants about the situational awareness instruction. Later, when I was speaking with the patriarch to set up additional training, he shared that the Aussie gentleman, his son-in-law, is usually a pretty taciturn and difficult to please type--but that he had said it was the best instruction he has ever received, in any field--and it turns out that he is a surgeon in Denver. One of the other ladies reached out after class by email with a question and compliments. Turns out she is a senior VP for HR & Training at Oracle. I say this not at all to brag--it's an honest report and I appreciate the advice I received here which contributed to the success of the class. The class did not seem appreciably different from my previous ones, though the inclusion of the pre-assault indicator and ASP videos was a positive addition. I also believe that having some pre-printed coupon options for future training was a good idea--it gave them some ideas to think about and a sense of scope and scale. We ended up agreeing on three additional 2-hour sessions for 5-6 people. I had suggested groups of 2-4 but they preferred the larger group.

We established training goals for our range sessions and scheduled the first session. We ended up needing to cancel due to unhealthy amounts of smoke in the air from CO wildfires, then COVID got crazier and here we are.

"During this entire time you are alternating your role between presenting authority, coach, and cheerleader. You present material with brevity and authority. You coach where it is necessary. And you make sure you celebrate success. When they get something right, no matter how small, you point that out and you make a big damn deal out of it. Especially in front of others. Coach to correct softly, but shout the successes from the rooftop. When you take the time to recognize success and the eyes of the class are on them for having done well at something, it changes the experience for them and for everyone else. They get to be recognized in front of a group of people for success at something they were nervous to approach in the first place. Everybody else gets to see that you're jazzed about their successes.

Everybody comes away believing you are on their team.

That is what will make them come back to other classes. I can't scare someone into taking more training, but I can make sure they taste success and get the impression that this is something they can do."

I definitely agree with this. My profession is actually in education. Although you couldn't tell from my rambling run-on sentences, I'm an elementary school principal (but hey, it's winter break!).

The crux of my original post was to express some frustration that reasonable people are not willing enough to pursue the reasonable training they need to be safe. I'm becoming stronger in the position that a significant portion of people who take my classes (or any others) really have no business carrying a weapon. Especially if they treat it as a talisman. I'm not for legislating against it--just kind of ranting.

I appreciate the feedback and perspective you have shared and look forward to more discussion if anyone is still interested.