Real BJJ

Anytime I hear or read about someone talking about the supposed difference between self-defense oriented BJJ and competition oriented BJJ, I throw up a little in my mouth. Rather than write a lot to explain why, I will show you why I have that perspective. Watch this:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=3xOU2IojpuQ


What kind of jiu-jitsu was that? Self-defense? Or sport? Here is the answer – yes, to both. It is just jiu-jitsu, the way it has been trained for 90+ years.

This was how I practiced for years with Professor Megaton Dias. This video was filmed around 1994 and most of it was shot in the old Boys and Girls club backroom south of Bethany Home Road (our original location when Meg frist started teaching publicly). No windows, no A/C, and not much mercy from the instructor! Please tell me what parts of that were sport only, or were self-defense only. You won’t be able to, because Jiu-Jitsu encompasses all of it.

Here is one the biggest thigns you need to understand - BJJ is like guitar playing. If you can truly play the guitar, then you can play different things without a problem. It does not take much to play a hard rock riff or solo like Eddie Van Halen, or a jazz line like Pat Metheny, or a classical part like Andres Segovia if you are already good at guitar playing and understand the underlying principles. It is all guitar. The techniques to play one of those are fundamentally the same as one of the others. You may certainly concentrate on one, and not pay much attention to the others, but that is solely on the individual, not the methodology or system.

Further, look at the video again. Note how part of it was filmed at a local karate school that Mega gave a workshop at. Look at the flooring. Carpet, not mats, and thin carpet at that, laid directly on concrete. But wait! That must mean the jiu-jitsu cannot work, because there are no mats. And yet, there they are, doing the techniques with no issue. We also sparred with all the lights off, and sparred in the parking lot. We even had Vale Tudo Friday nights, where we put on gloves and trained.

Also look at the first two techniques shown at the very beginning. At what point during Meg shooting in, taking the other guy down, establishing top control and going to the arm bar could the bottom guy eye gouge. or bite, or headbutt? Here is a hint to the answer - never.

Note also that how we generally ended up on the ground – by being taken there. No guard pulls, no starting on the knees. We fought for the takedown and continued the fight. And you see the results – that often the fight is ended right away within seconds. THAT is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

So please forgive me when people who have quite literally never ever spent one minute on BJJ mats try to tell me how my art is not about true “fighting”. And all that is why I just laugh when people who have never trained tell me that “fighting on the ground will get you killed in the street”.

*bonus points to anyone who can spot me in three sections on the video :)

Good stuff Cecil!

I have always believed- good jiu jitsu is good jiu jitsu. Sound

Unfortunately the sport vs self defense argument is one that regretfully always resurfaces with the untrained.

Beautiful! All of my belt promotions have been by Royce Gracie; I have the pictures and signatures to prove it! ;).

He is as old school as it comes and all of his seminars are run with self-defense in mind.

During one of the seminars, some guy slammed his own head down on the mat during a takedown and acted like a smartass when questioned about the way he did it. Royce invited him outside to try that in the parking lot on the concrete. :D

Good post.

Quite a contrast -- I trained in Okinawan Goju for almost 30 years. There is definitely a big difference between the Japanese version which is more sport oriented and the Okinawan version which is more defense oriented (mostly, not all schools follow this rule).

The perspective on Jiu-Jitsu is interesting.

Unfortunately that is not the bjj that is taught it the majority of school now.

Killer montage, boss!

Awesome post Cecil!

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Unfortunately that is not the bjj that is taught it the majority of school now.

---

Actually, I disagree. I have trained literally all over the world and the majority of academies are more like that. Are there significant numbers that don't and are watered down? Sure. But like I said clearly in the original post - that is not the problem with BJJ as a methodology or system, it is the problem with individuals.

Why is it that people always feel the need to say something like this, but yet we never hear the same thing with defensive handgun training? We know there are a good amount of bad instructors teaching poor ways of using a handgun for self-defense, but we ALWAYS blame that instructor, not a blanket throw the baby out with the bathwater approach that so many people can't wait to do with BJJ. It is weird to me.

Not sure what happened to my response or Cecil's quote.

My response was what is on the video is not representative of what is currently being taught in BJJ schools. Many schools today have gone the way of sport jiu jitsu and training for points rather than what was originally intended. Does that mean that BJJ is a bad system? No not at all. What it means is that a lot of newer students are concentrating and learning things such as worm guard, berimbolo, etc. Ask how many have actually taken a punch or a strike or even delivered one and more likely than not you'll get blank stares. It's not a system issue though in the sense that is what the owner is teaching. One has to search out the right school to suit their endeavors. To be clear, there are different schools now. There those who concentrated on sport(majority), self defense (minority) and those whose techniques they teach equally flow between the 2 (think Marcelo Garcia).

That is all I'm saying. This is not a swipe at BJJ especially since I've been doing it for a really long time, but rather the state I see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Not sure what happened to my response or Cecil's quote.

My response was what is on the video is not representative of what is currently being taught in BJJ schools. Many schools today have gone the way of sport jiu jitsu and training for points rather than what was originally intended. Does that mean that BJJ is a bad system? No not at all. What it means is that a lot of newer students are concentrating and learning things such as worm guard, berimbolo, etc. Ask how many have actually taken a punch or a strike or even delivered one and more likely than not you'll get blank stares. It's not a system issue though in the sense that is what the owner is teaching. One has to search out the right school to suit their endeavors. To be clear, there are different schools now. There those who concentrated on sport(majority), self defense (minority) and those whose techniques they teach equally flow between the 2 (think Marcelo Garcia).

That is all I'm saying. This is not a swipe at BJJ especially since I've been doing it for a really long time, but rather the state I see.

---

Again, I disagree. Taking a broad swipe at "most schools" and saying they mostly teach more one way is absolutely NOT what I experience in my travels and in my encounters with people visiting my academy. That more schools teach all competition and outnumber SD or general purpose BJJ is a trope that one side wants the public to believe, but it is 100% in contradiction to what I have seen firsthand. As a matter of fact, I am starting to get BJJ academies that directly want to bring me in and teach weapons based stuff to their regular students. I will be doing one in NorCal in August.

I have taught at or trained in schools all over the world - multiple places in the UK, Portugal, Brazil, Singapore, Canada, Mexico, and almost every single state in the US. Are there a lot that focus on sport? Yes. "Most"? Not even the majority. The vast majority have their feet in both worlds. It might be a balance of 70/30 or something similar, but the gyms that are exclusively sport are really small. People tend to talk about them because a) there are a number of people trying to convince people it is true, and b) some of those such schools are some of the most visible such as the Miyao bros, or Atos. That is perception, not reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Not sure what happened to my response or Cecil's quote.

My response was what is on the video is not representative of what is currently being taught in BJJ schools. Many schools today have gone the way of sport jiu jitsu and training for points rather than what was originally intended. Does that mean that BJJ is a bad system? No not at all. What it means is that a lot of newer students are concentrating and learning things such as worm guard, berimbolo, etc. Ask how many have actually taken a punch or a strike or even delivered one and more likely than not you'll get blank stares. It's not a system issue though in the sense that is what the owner is teaching. One has to search out the right school to suit their endeavors. To be clear, there are different schools now. There those who concentrated on sport(majority), self defense (minority) and those whose techniques they teach equally flow between the 2 (think Marcelo Garcia).

That is all I'm saying. This is not a swipe at BJJ especially since I've been doing it for a really long time, but rather the state I see.

---

Can you give us statistics? How many schools have you seen this in over how many years?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cecil Burch

Again, I disagree. Taking a broad swipe at "most schools" and saying they mostly teach more one way is absolutely NOT what I experience in my travels and in my encounters with people visiting my academy. That more schools teach all competition and outnumber SD or general purpose BJJ is a trope that one side wants the public to believe, but it is 100% in contradiction to what I have seen firsthand. As a matter of fact, I am starting to get BJJ academies that directly want to bring me in and teach weapons based stuff to their regular students. I will be doing one in NorCal in August.

I have taught at or trained in schools all over the world - multiple places in the UK, Portugal, Brazil, Singapore, Canada, Mexico, and almost every single state in the US. Are there a lot that focus on sport? Yes. "Most"? Not even the majority. The vast majority have their feet in both worlds. It might be a balance of 70/30 or something similar, but the gyms that are exclusively sport are really small. People tend to talk about them because a) there are a number of people trying to convince people it is true, and b) some of those such schools are some of the most visible such as the Miyao bros, or Atos. That is perception, not reality.

---

We'll have to agree to disagree. I too have been around the world and more often than not academies are teaching the latest and greatest guard. My experience is totally different than yours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleLebowski

Can you give us statistics? How many schools have you seen this in over how many years?

---

To quantify it would be impossible. You would have to base your conclusion based on your experience and the schools you visit and there are just too many around.

As to how many schools I've personally visited and over how many years? Well I've done bjj continuously since 1998 and have gotten to travel to different places and continents and make it a point to train in what ever city or country I'm in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

To quantify it would be impossible. You would have to base your conclusion based on your experience and the schools you visit and there are just too many around.

As to how many schools I've personally visited and over how many years? Well I've done bjj continuously since 1998 and have gotten to travel to different places and continents and make it a point to train in what ever city or country I'm in.

---

One thing that helps me in deciding who I will believe in a disagreement is knowing whom I’m speaking with and their background knowledge. This is NOT me demanding that you tell us about yourself, but...Cecil, SouthNarc, runcible, and Paul are “known goods” with professional data corroborating their knowledge and assertions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleLebowski

One thing that helps me in deciding who I will believe in a disagreement is knowing whom I’m speaking with and their background knowledge. This is NOT me demanding that you tell us about yourself, but...Cecil, SouthNarc, runcible, and Paul are “known goods” with professional data corroborating their knowledge and assertions.

---

I can understand that, but I’m just a civilian with no business interest. That being said the statistics and data you ask for do not exist. Just like you’ll never find hard data or statistics in what position is taught first and what the first technique taught from said position (the exception would be those who belong to large association such as Gracie Barra). One just has to go out and experience it. Of course don't take my word for it, go out and actually take a bjj class. Pay attention to the techniques taught especially as a student advances. Academies typically give a few classes out to prospective students. BJJ is popular enough nowadays that they are readily available pretty much in any major city.

Ultimately this is a disagreement on not the efficacy of bjj, but rather what is being taught nowadays. Again the best way to judge is to go out and experience what is being offered in your area. At worse you get a good workout at best you pick up a new hobby that adds to your knowledge.

Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

I mean sure, maybe not all of them teach striking, but you can find a MMA or boxing gym nearby pretty easily and have like 90 percent of your unarmed self defense sorted out in two years of work.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I train at McVicker’s under Megaton... I love when he comes for seminars, he is an amazing guy to watch. The intensity and ferocity he displays is something you can only experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 45dotACP

Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

I mean sure, maybe not all of them teach striking, but you can find a MMA or boxing gym nearby pretty easily and have like 90 percent of your unarmed self defense sorted out in two years of work.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

---

Funny thing is in my experience, the gyms that belong to a large association with a standardized curriculum are more likely to stress the basics and keep returning to it.

Absolutely you can find an mma gym, but the training is also harder and you’ll get banged up. Not everyone will be up for that.

From an outsider looking in I think there is always going to be the sport/street divide. Shooting has it too.

Competition is often the public face of a martial art. When people see that, even if it is a fragment of the whole, it gets magnified. And some folks see that and think it is the whole, or the biggest part of the art.

I've been in plenty of karate schools that will hit you hard, and often while engaging in standing grappling. They will take you down or throw you and they have some actual BJJ in their training. That doesn't make them the majority of schools though. Pity they aren't.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 45dotACP

Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

---

I don't think it's so much glossing over the basics as much as it is the way BJJ is taught at most places. Yes, some schools now have beginner/fundamental classes, but more often than not you are in the same class, drilling and learning the same techniques as the purple, brown and black belts. The upper belts need and want to learn the techniques and not just the old school fundamentals. So as a new white belt, if the instructor is teaching the deep half guard, you are going to be working the deep half guard, regardless of whether you know the most basic hip bump sweep or not, and regardless of whether deep half guard is appropriate for self defense.

In 1994 so many of the new sport techniques so common now hadn't even been invented. Had the berimbolo, 50/50 and all the lapel guards been around, I'm sure some of the guys that we look back on with nostalgia and reverently call old school would actually have been teaching the new techniques. It was easy to stick to the 'fundamentals' when only the 'fundamentals' exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 45dotACP

I mean sure, maybe not all of them teach striking, but you can find a MMA or boxing gym nearby pretty easily and have like 90 percent of your unarmed self defense sorted out in two years of work.

---

Can you, though? Real boxing gyms are pretty few and far between these days, especially outside of urban areas. See the comments below about training at a real MMA gym.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Funny thing is in my experience, the gyms that belong to a large association with a standardized curriculum are more likely to stress the basics and keep returning to it.

---

Gracie Barra is a good example. Big school, standardized curriculum and top competitors, but new guys have to go through the fundamentals and literally check the box on self defense techniques before being allowed to roll. Most other schools don't have a set curriculum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Absolutely you can find an mma gym, but the training is also harder and you’ll get banged up. Not everyone will be up for that.

---

True. I wager the vast, vast majority of P-F members are not up for training at a real MMA gym. I know I'm not, and I like to think I'm harder than the average person.


-------------------------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Unfortunately that is not the bjj that is taught it the majority of school now.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cecil Burch

Actually, I disagree. I have trained literally all over the world and the majority of academies are more like that.

---

The majority of academies are more like what? The sparring in the first part of the video, the Vale Tudo Fridays, training in the parking lot, training on only carpet??? That hasn't been my experience. I can say with complete certainty that the majority of academies are not doing those things.

Far be it from me to go against Cecil, and I absolutely think everyone interested in self-defense should practice BJJ. BJJ works. Whether you are at a sport oriented gym or a more traditional gym, you'll learn things that are essential.

With that out of the way -

My experience matches makuls. The sport influence absolutely exists and has changed what is taught. I can only imagine that the guys that gravitated to BJJ in 1994 were interested in fighting (if not necessarily self defense) since most had practiced a more traditional martial art before becoming disillusioned or discovering BJJ. So they were often 'fighters', so I understand it.

Nowadays guys start BJJ for fitness or because it's 'cool' or looks interesting or whatever. They aren't necessarily dudes looking to test their mettle. They aren't crossing over from full contact karate. Lot of guys say the classes these days aren't a brutal as they used to be. Is there truth to that or is it the "I was in the 'Last hard class'" type of thing? Probably a little of both.

Furthermore, the comp scene has exploded. Fifteen years ago comps were few and far between. Now they are common. Even if everyone in the gym isn't competing, many of the hardcore regulars are, and they are driving what is taught and what techniques are emphasized. Most IBJJF World titles are won on points and more than a few are won on just advantages. (I just checked. In the 2018 IBJJF Worlds, there was one submission in the finals, four wins by points, two wins by advantages and one win by referee's decision plus an injury and a close out.) These guys are fighting for points as much as submissions. Sport BJJ has changed BJJ.

To be fair, I should mention the rise of submission-only tournaments, which have become more popular for PPV spectactors and as a backlash against the point fighting in IBJJF.

Just to be perfectly clear - I agree with Cecil's overall point. If you aren't practicing BJJ because you heard sport BJJ has watered it down or because you heard it didn't work on the streetz, then you are misguided and missing out.

Before LL asks - I took my first BJJ class in 2003 with Ricardinho and Comprido in Copacabana. I've trained off and on, mostly off, since then on 3 continents. Trained at BTT and watched a young unknown guy named Toquinho tear legs off before anyone had heard of him. Rolled with Galvao and Ryan Hall. Spent time at a Lloyd Irvin affiliate before it cut ties with him after the rape scandal. Wilson Reis taught me the Wilson pass, which I could never get to work. I was looking for a more self defense so switched to a gym run by a Royler Gracie BB that is a bodyguard of some sort that was supposedly self defense oriented. It was the most old school place I've seen - bow to the picture of Helio and listen to stories about how Rickson still submits current IBJJF world champs in secret, invitation-only rolls, etc - and yet we always started from our knees. No striking, no live takedowns, just a bigger emphasis on submissions over. Certainly no Vale Tudo Fridays or whipping up on karatekas. Even though I dropped some names of famous competitors, I've never competed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 45dotACP

Do a lot of gyms that teach these fancy new guards, heel hooks and wristlocks really just gloss over the basics though?

---

No, they don't. Go to a class with Danaher and work on leglocks, and he is going to make sure you can get to the leglocks. The only way you can do that is by knowing the fundamentals. Go to Atos, the Mendes bros, the Miyaos, all the same.

If the academy has a schedule where everyone is in the same class, will there be classes where they are working on berimbolos, and ashi-garama, and the newer guys are stuck learning more complex things? Sure, and then shortly after that in a follow up class, they will be working on juji-gatame from closed guard. It is not a non-stop "let's work on cool new comp moves". That is a fantasy. BJJ is vast, and takes time to absorb. Sometimes you spend time on hard or advanced stuff, and sometimes you spend time on the essentials. Picking a single snap shot of one class is not the total picture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigD

The majority of academies are more like what? The sparring in the first part of the video, the Vale Tudo Fridays, training in the parking lot, training on only carpet??? That hasn't been my experience. I can say with complete certainty that the majority of academies are not doing those things.

---

Like makul, you are missing the entire point of the article. You both mistake form for substance.

Do I think that most BJJ schools train on carpet or asphalt, or have regular Vale Tudo classes? Of course not, and that is irrelevant. What is relevant and is the point is that the SPIRIT of that, the willingness to do that type of training, and the willingness to fight in a manner, environment, or situation different from “normal” training does exist in most legitimate BJJ schools. Even in the most sport centric of them, the bulk of the time training is spent against a partner who is doing his best to make you lose, and can do whatever is allowed in the rules to do so. He is not artificially constrained to only attack with “grab my wrist” opposition. When you face that all the time, having to deal with something else on top of that is not much of a problem, and few people collapse just because they are not on the mat in a gi. The “street” people love to talk about sport guys being unprepared to deal with a real attack, and yet the real world proof of that is utterly absent. In fact, what we see, is that even guys who do “sport” BJJ handle themselves in a self-defense scenario over and over again, and we rarely, if ever, see one of these guys trying to do a berimbolo while the other guy is punching them. The Ryan Hall incident is a fantastic illustration. Here is a BJJ guy who never spent any energy talking about self-defense in his BJJ career (up to that point) and was known for being one of the guys who loved to do inverted and cool guy moves. And yet, what did he do in the video? He shot a double leg, mounted the guy. Slapped him gently in the face and when the guy turned over choked him out with a rear naked. The exact opposite of what he did regularly in competition, but what he did under pressure. If playing for points and doing competition only moves was actually bad, Hall should have been thumped. But it did not happen. The sport critics love to hypothesize that the sport guys will fall apart in anything outside of sport, and yet we don’t see it.

Regularly going up against a resisting partner with opposing will, malevolent intent, and freedom of action is pretty good preparation even when the situation is new. Does that mean the sport guy automatically wins in the street? No, but he also does not instantaneously collapse in a fetal crying position the first time a guy tries to punch him either. That sounds great, but has little to no proof behind that trope.

Quote:

---

Furthermore, the comp scene has exploded. Fifteen years ago comps were few and far between. Now they are common. Even if everyone in the gym isn't competing, many of the hardcore regulars are, and they are driving what is taught and what techniques are emphasized. Most IBJJF World titles are won on points and more than a few are won on just advantages. (I just checked. In the 2018 IBJJF Worlds, there was one submission in the finals, four wins by points, two wins by advantages and one win by referee's decision plus an injury and a close out.) These guys are fighting for points as much as submissions. Sport BJJ has changed BJJ.

To be fair, I should mention the rise of submission-only tournaments, which have become more popular for PPV spectactors and as a backlash against the point fighting in IBJJF.

---

I am so frickin’ tried of people throwing points around as some kind of condemnation of competition BJJ. Especially with a look at the black belt finals of the world championships as some kind of ultimate “gotcha”.

So two elite athletes, in their physical prime, who have been prepping for months to peak at a specific time, who are roughly the same age, and the same weight, and are as far as technical knowledge are as equally matched as humanly possible end up without a submission after 10 minutes? I am shocked! Really? Someone thinks that is surprising? To me, that seems like a really ignorant understanding and poor grasp of BJJ. I am a fairly mediocre black belt, and I can guarantee that against almost any black belt in the world, I have a pretty good shot of defending a submission. I would mount exactly zero offense and threaten him in no way, but I can keep him from tapping me. But the score would probably be something like 87 -0. Is that in any way not an indication that in a fight, I would be dead?

The reason points exist is that because between two peers, a submission in a reasonable amount of time is hard. In a typical 6 minute sparring round, I can pretty much tap any lower belt, but another black belt? Especially one who I train with multiple times a week and have done so for years, and knows my game? That is zero reflection on whether I can fight against a criminal attacker in the street who knows almost nothing about grappling, just as Lucas Leite not tapping Renato Carruto in a single match means nothing towards whether points affect the ability to fight and/or means competitors “play to win”. Which is a nonsense term .

Points were introduced in BJJ because you know what is worse that watching someone win on points? Watching a fight between two great black belts and there being no submission at the end so there is no winner. THAT truly sucks, as most of these submission only tournaments are finding out.

And further, the points in BJJ are geared towards winning a streetfight. You get no reward for escaping or defending, you only get points for progressing towards the finish. If you take someone down and show that you are controlling the fight to take it to where you want, you get 2 points. If you do nothing else, you get nothing for it because you are doing nothing else. If the other guy establishes guard off your takedown, he gets no points because he is expected to defend. If he then sweeps you and gains a more dominant position he gets 2 points. If his sweep takes him straight to mount, he gets 4 more points. Let’s say that is where it ends up for the remaining minute of a match. So someone is going to argue that the second guy was not winning the fight and would not have done so in the street, whether a submission happened of not? If it was the street, maybe INSTEAD of a submission, the second guy deploys a pistol and goes to town. He can do it because he controlled the fight and went to where he wanted to go. The points in BJJ clearly show that. It is crazy to argue that working for points in that manner is somehow unrelated to fighting. I have been fortunate to be around the best competitors in BJJ history, and I have yet to find one of them who would not prefer to win a fight with a submission. But when going against your peer, that is not commonly possible. But doing it to a white belt, or someone who knows no grappling? It will be another Ryan Hall scenario.

Someone wants to believe that BJJ training is watered down now and that most schools are only interested in competition? Cool, it does not harm me in any way for someone to think that. But it does not mean it is correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cecil Burch

Like makul, you are missing the entire point of the article. You both mistake form for substance.

Do I think that most BJJ schools train on carpet or asphalt, or have regular Vale Tudo classes? Of course not, and that is irrelevant. What is relevant and is the point is that the SPIRIT of that, the willingness to do that type of training, and the willingness to fight in a manner, environment, or situation different from “normal” training does exist in most legitimate BJJ schools. Even in the most sport centric of them, the bulk of the time training is spent against a partner who is doing his best to make you lose, and can do whatever is allowed in the rules to do so. He is not artificially constrained to only attack with “grab my wrist” opposition. When you face that all the time, having to deal with something else on top of that is not much of a problem, and few people collapse just because they are not on the mat in a gi. The “street” people love to talk about sport guys being unprepared to deal with a real attack, and yet the real world proof of that is utterly absent. In fact, what we see, is that even guys who do “sport” BJJ handle themselves in a self-defense scenario over and over again, and we rarely, if ever, see one of these guys trying to do a berimbolo while the other guy is punching them. The Ryan Hall incident is a fantastic illustration. Here is a BJJ guy who never spent any energy talking about self-defense in his BJJ career (up to that point) and was known for being one of the guys who loved to do inverted and cool guy moves. And yet, what did he do in the video? He shot a double leg, mounted the guy. Slapped him gently in the face and when the guy turned over choked him out with a rear naked. The exact opposite of what he did regularly in competition, but what he did under pressure. If playing for points and doing competition only moves was actually bad, Hall should have been thumped. But it did not happen. The sport critics love to hypothesize that the sport guys will fall apart in anything outside of sport, and yet we don’t see it.

Regularly going up against a resisting partner with opposing will, malevolent intent, and freedom of action is pretty good preparation even when the situation is new. Does that mean the sport guy automatically wins in the street? No, but he also does not instantaneously collapse in a fetal crying position the first time a guy tries to punch him either. That sounds great, but has little to no proof behind that trope.





I am so frickin’ tried of people throwing points around as some kind of condemnation of competition BJJ. Especially with a look at the black belt finals of the world championships as some kind of ultimate “gotcha”.

So two elite athletes, in their physical prime, who have been prepping for months to peak at a specific time, who are roughly the same age, and the same weight, and are as far as technical knowledge are as equally matched as humanly possible end up without a submission after 10 minutes? I am shocked! Really? Someone thinks that is surprising? To me, that seems like a really ignorant understanding and poor grasp of BJJ. I am a fairly mediocre black belt, and I can guarantee that against almost any black belt in the world, I have a pretty good shot of defending a submission. I would mount exactly zero offense and threaten him in no way, but I can keep him from tapping me. But the score would probably be something like 87 -0. Is that in any way not an indication that in a fight, I would be dead?

The reason points exist is that because between two peers, a submission in a reasonable amount of time is hard. In a typical 6 minute sparring round, I can pretty much tap any lower belt, but another black belt? Especially one who I train with multiple times a week and have done so for years, and knows my game? That is zero reflection on whether I can fight against a criminal attacker in the street who knows almost nothing about grappling, just as Lucas Leite not tapping Renato Carruto in a single match means nothing towards whether points affect the ability to fight and/or means competitors “play to win”. Which is a nonsense term .

Points were introduced in BJJ because you know what is worse that watching someone win on points? Watching a fight between two great black belts and there being no submission at the end so there is no winner. THAT truly sucks, as most of these submission only tournaments are finding out.

And further, the points in BJJ are geared towards winning a streetfight. You get no reward for escaping or defending, you only get points for progressing towards the finish. If you take someone down and show that you are controlling the fight to take it to where you want, you get 2 points. If you do nothing else, you get nothing for it because you are doing nothing else. If the other guy establishes guard off your takedown, he gets no points because he is expected to defend. If he then sweeps you and gains a more dominant position he gets 2 points. If his sweep takes him straight to mount, he gets 4 more points. Let’s say that is where it ends up for the remaining minute of a match. So someone is going to argue that the second guy was not winning the fight and would not have done so in the street, whether a submission happened of not? If it was the street, maybe INSTEAD of a submission, the second guy deploys a pistol and goes to town. He can do it because he controlled the fight and went to where he wanted to go. The points in BJJ clearly show that. It is crazy to argue that working for points in that manner is somehow unrelated to fighting. I have been fortunate to be around the best competitors in BJJ history, and I have yet to find one of them who would not prefer to win a fight with a submission. But when going against your peer, that is not commonly possible. But doing it to a white belt, or someone who knows no grappling? It will be another Ryan Hall scenario.

Someone wants to believe that BJJ training is watered down now and that most schools are only interested in competition? Cool, it does not harm me in any way for someone to think that. But it does not mean it is correct.

---

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree on some things, but agree on some things.

We can go on forever. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. We take and learn from our experiences and interpret them how we see it. We have differing views that's it. I'm sure it's not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cecil Burch

I am a fairly mediocre black belt

---

Kudos to you on your honesty. I can respect that.

"Also look at the first two techniques shown at the very beginning. At what point during Meg shooting in, taking the other guy down, establishing top control and going to the arm bar could the bottom guy eye gouge. or bite, or headbutt? Here is a hint to the answer - never"

Lol. Sorry the first minute was embarrassing. Absolutely no sprawling or take down defense. Weak attacks. It really looked like one person was just flayling to get taken down.

I'm not against bjj but please don't use the first minute to promote it.

I've trained in bjj, traditional jj, mcmap, akido, judo, tsd, Okinawan karate in Okinawa, Muay Thai in Thailand, I wrestled in IL, and trained in the militich camp. I find value from good instruction in all styles. I have several black belts a d went to several world championshios fwiw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mister X

Kudos to you on your honesty. I can respect that.

---

Get passive aggressive, lose your posting access to this area. Enjoy the rest of PF.

Back to the discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 03RN

...and trained in the militich camp.

---

Pat Miletich is pretty intense. What was that like?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sidheshooter

Pat Miletich is pretty intense. What was that like?

---

Considering I was in highschool and getting ready to leave for boot camp they were a huge asset to help my work ethic and really helped my defense.

Illinois wrestling helped too.

Jeremy Horn was dating a friend of my mom's at the time as well so I was fortunate to grapple with him while they worked out.

Getting my ass kicked a few times by Matt Hughes back in 02 was fun too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 03RN

I've trained in bjj, traditional jj, mcmap, akido, judo, tsd, Okinawan karate in Okinawa, Muay Thai in Thailand, I wrestled in IL, and trained in the militich camp. I find value from good instruction in all styles. I have several black belts a d went to several world championshios fwiw

---

And with your background, do you really believe some overweight neckbeard who never trained his martial art at full contact, when he tells you that your wrestling/BJJ/MT training wouldn't help because he can just magically win a fight by poking you in the eye or kicking you in the nutsack?

Hell, working in a psych unit, I bet a good number of your patients have tried to do just that [emoji23]

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 45dotACP

And with your background, do you really believe some overweight neckbeard who never trained his martial art at full contact, when he tells you that your wrestling/BJJ/MT training wouldn't help because he can just magically win a fight by poking you in the eye or kicking you in the nutsack?

Hell, working in a psych unit, I bet a good number of your patients have tried to do just that [emoji23]

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

---

Absolutely not. That's why I find value in nearly any style taught competently. While sparring you will get inadvertently hit in the balls or eyes and still need to fight through it.

OC spray qual while stationed in DC was actually really helpful for that as well.

I recently fractured a bone during a restraint. Still had to finish it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by makul

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree on some things, but agree on some things.

We can go on forever. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. We take and learn from our experiences and interpret them how we see it. We have differing views that's it. I'm sure it's not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

---

I’m a little skeptical that there are tons and tons of places where kids today are learning nothing but worm guard, but ultimately I appreciate Leonard Cohen level expressions of world-weary disdain.
I need you to work in something about Millennials. Bonus points for mentioning Supernatural Survival Gear in a seemingly natural way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cecil Burch

Do I think that most BJJ schools train on carpet or asphalt, or have regular Vale Tudo classes? Of course not, and that is irrelevant. What is relevant and is the point is that the SPIRIT of that, the willingness to do that type of training, and the willingness to fight in a manner, environment, or situation different from “normal” training does exist in most legitimate BJJ schools

---

So as a new, and older BJJ white belt, it looks to me like we are all training smarter, and more sustainably. The video looks more like what I'd consider reasonable for an audit of your abilities, similar to ECQC evos, but maybe a little too "boxing-gym-meat grinder" for daily training if I'm being honest. So far in my fundamentals and intermediate classes everything has been applicable to self defense and no one has mentioned points once. Cecil's post above was actually my first introduction to the competition points system.

But I completely agree, the majority of people I train with WOULD be willing to train like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parf

So as a new, and older BJJ white belt, it looks to me like we are all training smarter, and more sustainably. The video looks more like what I'd consider reasonable for an audit of your abilities, similar to ECQC evos, but maybe a little too "boxing-gym-meat grinder" for daily training if I'm being honest. So far in my fundamentals and intermediate classes everything has been applicable to self defense and no one has mentioned points once. Cecil's post above was actually my first introduction to the competition points system.

But I completely agree, the majority of people I train with WOULD be willing to train like that.

---

We in the BJJ world, in general, are SOOOOOO much smarter about how to train. While I am extremely happy that I went through that kind of training shown in the video throughout the 90's and into the early 2000's, I don' think it should be done that way normally - i.e. every class, every day for two hour sessions at a time.

You are totally spot on about about where it fits and comparing it to ECQC. We should do ECQC type evo level training about once a month for no more than an hour at a maximum, and maybe twice a year do the full blown thing for a weekend. More than that, unless you are a young meat eater who has no outside responsibilities and can train 5-8 hours a day everyday, will kill you.

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum. I started BJJ in 2012. I was made/told I was going to be a Control Tactics Instructor. I knew I needed to start BJJ to be taken seriously as a coach. I was a B.B. in Hapkido and used a lot of joint locks on the job over the years. Funny thing is, the more I trained BJJ, the easier it was to get into my Hapkido-joint locks.

Back on topic, I like to train "Universal" BJJ now. BJJ that isn't self-defense or sport. Works in both fields/games. I started in MMA based BJJ at an MMA school and also cross trained Gracie Combative/GST when I started. I felt that was the only "real" way to train. At some point I just liked training and didn't care anymore. And now I mostly just train Gi (I am 49). I like how Gi slows the roll down for me. i'm not as athletic as I once was (bad knees and such).

When I started, I was under the mind-set that nogi was the only real way to train for self defense. I picked up quickly on the job people would grab my outer-vest and in Oregon, everyone is wearing fleece/coats half the year. Now I love Gi and see spider-guard and other Gi-tactics as great for self-defense. I know leniently is not duty-gear & street smart but it is fun to train.

I train MMA/BJJ based Combative/Control Tactics once a week with one or two local LEO's. That keeps my street smart tactics rust-free. I like what some on the forum have said. You don't need to always train "street wise" BJJ to know what to do. The more I train, the more I stop thinking about it.