Managing Rapid Small Angle Transitions (iron sights)

While this question would have applicability to a real world encounter against multiple assailants, I'm shooting iron sights in Steel Challenge and having some difficulty with easy-to-medium difficulty targets following a rapid, small-angle transitions.

I've always tried getting my eyes ahead of the gun and my grip mechanics generally preserve the sight picture over longer transitions. These short transitions can result in a degraded sight picture on arrival at the target possibly due to my hips not keeping up with my upper body. Eyes on target, sights slightly misaligned, gun goes bang, miss results. I'm finding on these sorts of transitions that tracking the sights onto the target, preserving the "loop" that preserves sight alignment, finds me able to break a successful shot almost 100% of the time.

Steel Challenge stages are set pieces. I know where the target is and can see it in my low resolution peripheral vision. Does this approach make sense? I have good vision albeit my dominant eye glasses are set to 1 meter focus, a compromise following cataract surgery.

My simple view - for these almost snap-shoot targets the loop that preserves sight alignment is more important than the loop managing arrival on the target. On long transitions muscle memory doesn't seem to play all that much of a role with managing a control arrival on target more important to a degree than sight alignment (you can manage that during deceleration on target).

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

While this question would have applicability to a real world encounter against multiple assailants, I'm shooting iron sights in Steel Challenge and having some difficulty with easy-to-medium difficulty targets following a rapid, small-angle transitions.

I've always tried getting my eyes ahead of the gun and my grip mechanics generally preserve the sight picture over longer transitions. These short transitions can result in a degraded sight picture on arrival at the target possibly due to my hips not keeping up with my upper body. Eyes on target, sights slightly misaligned, gun goes bang, miss results. I'm finding on these sorts of transitions that tracking the sights onto the target, preserving the "loop" that preserves sight alignment, finds me able to break a successful shot almost 100% of the time.

Steel Challenge stages are set pieces. I know where the target is and can see it in my low resolution peripheral vision. Does this approach make sense? I have good vision albeit my dominant eye glasses are set to 1 meter focus, a compromise following cataract surgery.

My simple view - for these almost snap-shoot targets the loop that preserves sight alignment is more important than the loop managing arrival on the target. On long transitions muscle memory doesn't seem to play all that much of a role with managing a control arrival on target more important to a degree than sight alignment (you can manage that during deceleration on target).

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Great topic. I'm looking forward to other suggestions. Here are mine:

Let's define some terms.

Sight Alignment: Front and rear sights are aligned with each other (equal height/equal light).

Point of Aim: Where the bullet will go assuming the gun stays aimed there.

Index: "automatic" alignment of the sights with each other (and ideally with the target) that results from your grip, arm triangle, and posture. This does not involve a sensory feedback loop.

Loop: The process of using visual feedback to adjust front/rear sight alignment with each other, and with the target. This involves one or more sensory feedback loops.

Your index (on the draw or other presentation) should result in your front and rear sights being aligned, and reasonably close to the target (where you're looking). If that's not the case, there's the lowest hanging fruit.

Transitioning to another target shouldn't disturb sight alignment. If that's not the case, this is the next lowest fruit. When transitions change people's index, that's usually caused by moving the gun with the arms instead of with the lower body. The triangle and chest should be like a turret.

Does the gun stop ON the new target, or does it overshoot it and require a loop (or more than one) to acquire the POA? "Critically damped" transitions are what we want, and it can take a decent amount of practice to do that quickly and without tension.

How are you missing? The sequence is: eyes to target, move gun to target precisely, fire. Sometimes, people fire early ("drag on"). Often this is because you're not looking at the right place--the very center of the target. EDIT: also, because steel challenge is the same every time, sometimes people shoot by set motions rather than vision. This can actually work for some stages at the highest levels of the sport. But probably not for us mortals.

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

I'm shooting iron sights in Steel Challenge and having some difficulty with easy-to-medium difficulty targets following a rapid, small-angle transitions.

I've always tried getting my eyes ahead of the gun and my grip mechanics generally preserve the sight picture over longer transitions. These short transitions can result in a degraded sight picture on arrival at the target possibly due to my hips not keeping up with my upper body. Eyes on target, sights slightly misaligned, gun goes bang, miss results. I'm finding on these sorts of transitions that tracking the sights onto the target, preserving the "loop" that preserves sight alignment, finds me able to break a successful shot almost 100% of the time.

Steel Challenge stages are set pieces. I know where the target is and can see it in my low resolution peripheral vision. Does this approach make sense? I have good vision albeit my dominant eye glasses are set to 1 meter focus, a compromise following cataract surgery.

My simple view - for these almost snap-shoot targets the loop that preserves sight alignment is more important than the loop managing arrival on the target. On long transitions muscle memory doesn't seem to play all that much of a role with managing a control arrival on target more important to a degree than sight alignment (you can manage that during deceleration on target).

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I've been shooting Steel Challenge with irons and might be able to help.

For context, which transitions of what stages are giving you issues?

And what kinds of classifier percents are you running? 65%? 85% That context will help me narrow down what needs to happen because at different time parameters there are different necessary assumptions.



One thing that I found I had to correct when doing Steel Challenge irons versus optics...

I had to turn my head more en bloc with my arm triangle to keep the irons aligned. With an optic, I could keep my head oriented to the stop plate and shoot some of the larger side transitions with somewhat peripheral vision. This doesn't work for irons and I found I had to consciously move my head as a unit with my torso to lock down my alignment.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

Great topic. I'm looking forward to other suggestions. Here are mine:

Let's define some terms.

Sight Alignment: Front and rear sights are aligned with each other (equal height/equal light).

Point of Aim: Where the bullet will go assuming the gun stays aimed there.

Index: "automatic" alignment of the sights with each other (and ideally with the target) that results from your grip, arm triangle, and posture. This does not involve a sensory feedback loop.

Loop: The process of using visual feedback to adjust front/rear sight alignment with each other, and with the target. This involves one or more sensory feedback loops.

Your index (on the draw or other presentation) should result in your front and rear sights being aligned, and reasonably close to the target (where you're looking). If that's not the case, there's the lowest hanging fruit.

Transitioning to another target shouldn't disturb sight alignment. If that's not the case, this is the next lowest fruit. When transitions change people's index, that's usually caused by moving the gun with the arms instead of with the lower body. The triangle and chest should be like a turret.

Does the gun stop ON the new target, or does it overshoot it and require a loop (or more than one) to acquire the POA? "Critically damped" transitions are what we want, and it can take a decent amount of practice to do that quickly and without tension.

How are you missing? The sequence is: eyes to target, move gun to target precisely, fire. Sometimes, people fire early ("drag on"). Often this is because you're not looking at the right place--the very center of the target. EDIT: also, because steel challenge is the same every time, sometimes people shoot by set motions rather than vision. This can actually work for some stages at the highest levels of the sport. But probably not for us mortals.

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Lots of good clarifications here. One that I might add is speed of transition, or rather rate of speed of transition. Acceleration and Deceleration. Similar to a draw stroke where you can slam the gun to a stop and it bounces or over-shoots and you have to correct vs starting the decel process in the final 15-10% so that the sights land on target smoothly and permit immediate trigger activation.

Really appreciate the input.
@JCN, Showdown transition targets 1-2 from the l/h box is a good example. A few other notes:

1. While the sights are clear my prescription is a compromise to help with some distant targets with very poor contrast (white target that has been hit 100 times against a berm not in sunlight)
2. No binocular vision -- don't think this is a factor, but I have had my brain go with the left eye on occasion.
3. Some of my "testing" has been with holding on target 1 to eliminate the draw stroke from the equation. My draw index is good and I don't think that contributes to the problem
4. The acceleration/deceleration is something I'm aware of but find difficult to apply in this sort of transition. This may be telling me to get things moving with my lower body; the extra 0.1 sec. is nothing compared to sight alignment or double-tap delays.
5. I know part of the problem is not getting my lower body around; this is not an issue on longer transitions where my sight alignment remains solid (e.g., Five-to-Go a succession of increasing distance 10" targets)
   Despite my age (77) no physical issues and reasonably strong. I'd bet the lower body "thing" has much more to do with how I initiate the transition.
6. I was close to making "A" prior to cataracts. I'm mechanically better that at that time some 8 years ago, but (former) engineers sometimes think too much.

The best I could do today timing shot to shot on that sort of transitiion was 0.4 seconds which I'm guessing is pretty darn slow; this is holding on target 1.

Perhaps some dry fire drills working on initiating the movement with the lower body?

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

Perhaps some dry fire drills working on initiating the movement with the lower body?

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Definitely dry fire. And yes drive with the knees and lower body. I know @Clusterfrack does too.

I like these:

https://gofastdontsuck.net/swag-stor...Kit-p276308126

For irons having light color targets on a white wall is nice for feedback and visual tracking.

I like those stickers better than the large, printed dry fire posters for irons because the background is pretty dark.

Try moving the head as a unit with the torso when using irons slowly in dry.

Only the eyeballs lead the unit on a transition.

With optics I usually go eyeballs, head and torso…

With irons I go eyeballs then head and torso as one unit.

This was with iron rifle on Showdown, but concepts still hold.

https://youtu.be/YyzuRpTXj9w

I’ll try and do a pistol video for you later.

The better your mechanics, the less you need to stop on a target.

You can “drift through” it without stopping.

https://youtu.be/6_88t6-B89c

I’ll sometimes just practice draw to single transition in live.

https://youtu.be/Y8kPBxVKYWE

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

Really appreciate the input.
Perhaps some dry fire drills working on initiating the movement with the lower body?

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Glad to help. This is what P-F is for.

What happens to your sight alignment when you dryfire transitions? Are your sights still aligned?

Driving the rotation from the knees and hips: this is the way. If you're not doing this ALL THE TIME, it's going to take some time to burn in the new approach and your times will suffer.

It's so tempting to use the arms--especially in dryfire--because it's possible to use the arms to get the gun there faster when chasing par times. But this is NOT the way, even if it's faster. Rotating the gun using the arms almost always causes changes in POI. Pretty much the only time I transition with arms in unconventional positions where my triangle is jacked anyway.

Now, let's talk about precise transitions. When you're trying to go fast, is there tension that causes the gun to overshoot the target? Are you "muscling" the gun? Notice that in @JCN's video, he never does this. If he misses, it's not because an overtransition.

EDIT: unless the targets are fairly close together, I move my eyes, then head, then the gun. It's the same for me with irons and a dot.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

Glad to help. This is what P-F is for.

What happens to your sight alignment when you dryfire transitions? Are your sights still aligned?

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That was one of the things that confused me at first. Remember when I thought I was not transitioning enough for the wide transitions but it turned out I was cheating my head turn because I was trying to keep focus on the stop plate at the same time as transitioning.

The steel challenge stages are pretty narrow and the transitions are pretty short. Most of my issue stemmed from trying to fix the stop plates in the center instead of committing to keeping sights in line with dominant eyeball and head.

For USPSA transitions agree: eyes, head and then body for irons and optics. For steel challenge, the irons stay in vision the whole time.

The place that effs me up with regard to cross rotation is USPSA when I have to move one way and engage targets in a different direction from which I’m moving. It almost always adds some pull off bias unless I add back some unnatural tension to brace out my strained arm of the triangle.

@rdtompki

This is a one handed, cell phone video illustration of what I’m talking about.

https://youtu.be/ztgnKSncDw0

With my real eye and freestyle, the sights stay aligned with my dominant eye… even if my eye darts to the next target… the sights remain anchored to my arms and head position as I turn with my knees.

I float through the targets and try not to stop if I can help it.

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Originally Posted by JCN

That was one of the things that confused me at first. Remember when I thought I was not transitioning enough for the wide transitions but it turned out I was cheating my head turn because I was trying to keep focus on the stop plate at the same time as transitioning.

The steel challenge stages are pretty narrow and the transitions are pretty short. Most of my issue stemmed from trying to fix the stop plates in the center instead of committing to keeping sights in line with dominant eyeball and head.

For USPSA transitions agree: eyes, head and then body for irons and optics. For steel challenge, the irons stay in vision the whole time.

The place that effs me up with regard to cross rotation is USPSA when I have to move one way and engage targets in a different direction from which I’m moving. It almost always adds some pull off bias unless I add back some unnatural tension to brace out my strained arm of the triangle.

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This is a super interesting point. When the head moves and the triangle follows, the relationship between dominant eye and the sights needs to be reestablished. With a well-developed index that relationship is robust, but still takes time to reestablish and confirm.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

This is a super interesting point. When the head moves and the triangle follows, the relationship between dominant eye, and the sights needs to be reestablished. Even with a well-developed index, that relationship is robust but takes time to reestablish and confirm.

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What I’m doing in this case is keeping the head position anchored to the sights while I turn with knees… even if the eye darts, I can still smoothly track the gun / irons in and across the target.

It’s like when we talked about picking up the dot on an optic on approach to the target. It’s like that.

The simpler the tracking, the more predictive the shooting and the less correction required.

I realized this when I was shooting PCC-irons… the head has to stay anchored in line via the cheek weld. Even if the eyes dart to next target.

That’s essentially what you’re trying to recreate with iron pistol for steel challenge IMO… a virtual cheek weld to the irons that keeps the head position constant in relation to the sights.


@rdtompki

@rdtompki

This is what it looks like.

Make sure you try and get low and wide as ortho limitations allow.

https://youtu.be/HDAY8-DHwBA

I don't have any ortho limitations other than never having been a fast twitch guy. I'm guilty of moving my head instead of rotating my eyeballs and on these short transitions likely not keeping hips and the shoulders/arms/grip framework in sync. Although not directly the subject of this post I'd bet I'm guilty of the same thing when reversing direction. I've got enough runway left to fix this.

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

I don't have any ortho limitations other than never having been a fast twitch guy. I'm guilty of moving my head instead of rotating my eyeballs and on these short transitions likely not keeping hips and the shoulders/arms/grip framework in sync. Although not directly the subject of this post I'd bet I'm guilty of the same thing when reversing direction. I've got enough runway left to fix this.

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Steel challenge to me doesn’t seem to be fast twitch intensive. It’s more about great mechanics that allow you to roll through progressively and smoothly. It’s kind of anti-fast twitch.

Transitions are difficult to drill effectively because your body rapidly adjusts to what you're asking of it.

What helped me was hammering in 12 wooden stakes in a 10 yard marked out circle like compass points then hammering in stakes every 6 inches between a few of them.

You can stand in the center of the circle, at either edge, closer, farther, and it keeps you fresh on performing each transition cleanly without becoming accustomed to the direction and distance. Dry fire of course. Decent core workout after awhile too.

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Originally Posted by MickAK

Transitions are difficult to drill effectively because your body rapidly adjusts to what you're asking of it.

What helped me was hammering in 12 wooden stakes in a 10 yard marked out circle like compass points then hammering in stakes every 6 inches between a few of them.

You can stand in the center of the circle, at either edge, closer, farther, and it keeps you fresh on performing each transition cleanly without becoming accustomed to the direction and distance. Dry fire of course. Decent core workout after awhile too.

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Excellent point. I've experienced that when I've set up just two targets. Doesn't matter the flaws in my technique I adapt to same during repetition. My wife and I practice twice a week; I can emulate your approach by working transitions drive fire on any of the 20 transitions available in the 5 target array ignoring how the stage would actually be shot. Do this dry fire and finish off by 5 strings of live fire.

FWIW, and I think it's worth plenty, one couldn't find another forum with such thoughtful responses to the original post. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by MickAK

Transitions are difficult to drill effectively because your body rapidly adjusts to what you're asking of it.

What helped me was hammering in 12 wooden stakes in a 10 yard marked out circle like compass points then hammering in stakes every 6 inches between a few of them.

You can stand in the center of the circle, at either edge, closer, farther, and it keeps you fresh on performing each transition cleanly without becoming accustomed to the direction and distance. Dry fire of course. Decent core workout after awhile too.

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Great idea!

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

Excellent point. I've experienced that when I've set up just two targets. Doesn't matter the flaws in my technique I adapt to same during repetition. My wife and I practice twice a week; I can emulate your approach by working transitions drive fire on any of the 20 transitions available in the 5 target array ignoring how the stage would actually be shot. Do this dry fire and finish off by 5 strings of live fire.

FWIW, and I think it's worth plenty, one couldn't find another forum with such thoughtful responses to the original post. Thanks.

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The two comments I would make is make sure you do it on a timer with a restrictive par to shake out inefficiencies.

And set up at least three targets, even if it’s a memorization array it’s still okay to shake out inefficiencies.

Second target on Showdown is a transition target so make sure you’re going past that target and not ending on the second target in practice.

Something like this:
https://youtu.be/WOPbVq6RuYQ

I've taking a bit of a temporary detour since the original post shooting my RDS (507 ACSS) Kimber "Commander" in lieu of the iron sight 9mm 1911. It's proving to be quite the learning experience

1. My iron sight draw is pretty solid in terms of index, but I know realize that the subconscious acquisition of the front sight as the gun is coming up has a good deal to do with sight alignment. Initially, my RDS draw was a disaster, everything coming up "left" @JCN your mention of a flatter press-out struct me during a recent match in that I had used that approach for 2-3 years primarily based on better retention. I switched during the match and my draw index with the RDS improved instantly. Proved it out during practice today with essentially no effect on draw speed.
2. The RDS really forces me to trust my mechanics and get my eyes on the target. Nothing new, said my many
3. Pros and Cons to the ACSS reticle. While it indicates where to find the dot it is also extremely distracting when part of the circle appears and yet the dot is still in the field. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a 507COMP. I think with a good deal of practice the the ACSS could be helpful, but a small circle as on my 509 would have most of the benefit without the downsides IMO.
4. I forgot to put on my shooting glasses, leaving my regular Rudy Project eye wear in place. Turns out I don't need my prescription to shoot and RDS. Who knew?
5. Had a run of bad brass during practice (PPU, SVT(?) and GFL(?)). Got tired of knocking them out of the Kimber barrel so switched to the full-size with irons. The benefit of even two weeks with the RDS was apparent; the RDS had me really focused on a good left-hand grip and I was able to get good hits with irons despite not having changed eye wear. I'll place some credit for the grip improvement on the level press-out; just feels more natural to crank in a good left-hand in that condition,

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

Initially, my RDS draw was a disaster, everything coming up "left" @JCN your mention of a flatter press-out struct me during a recent match in that I had used that approach for 2-3 years primarily based on better retention.

I switched during the match and my draw index with the RDS improved instantly. Proved it out during practice today with essentially no effect on draw speed.

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NICE! Glad to have helped. A good RDS flat press out works for irons as well and has a lot of muzzle stability benefit over the casting fisherman draws.

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Originally Posted by rdtompki

[*]Pros and Cons to the ACSS reticle. While it indicates where to find the dot it is also extremely distracting when part of the circle appears and yet the dot is still in the field.

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Totally agree with the huge outer ACSS reticle giving false information.

Did you know that you can turn it off? :D

If you hold down the button to cycle through reticles you can toggle the huge outer circle to off.

I did this almost immediately for my ACSS.



Super happy to have helped.

ACSS - yep, same as the other multi-reticle Holosun sights. Wanted to see what the large circle could bring to the table.