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So I believe combatives play an important role in preparing for a defensive encounter. Speaking to various people both Brazilian jiu-jitsu and muaythai come up. I would like to join a formal class, any advice on these two disciplines, which should I look at etc.
Assuming you have access to both, that's a tough question to answer. I'd give the cop out answer of "try both and see what you like better" with the disclaimer that you may require a lot longer to start enjoying BJJ because of how much and how long it can suck to be a beginner.
If looking for real world defensive applications instead of sporting applications, I recommend finding someone good at wrestling and getting lessons from them.
I think both are useful. That said, I’d start with BJJ all the way to gain base-line defensive proficiency. This is coming from a guy with several years of boxing as well as a black belt in a traditional Okinawan kicking/striking art, btw.
(On the other, hand, maybe that’s why I find BJJ so alluring: I understand how to hit like a guy twice my size, but I still get wadded up into a ball by even remotely good grapplers, so grain of salt).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warped Mindless
IF you can find an instructor who understands how to 1, work with broken-ass old adults, and 2, how to integrate wrestling into real-world defensive applications, then I might tend to agree. Those guys don’t grow on trees, but they’re out there—including several of our mods here.
That’s tough to find as an adult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warped Mindless
Go with whichever gym you get the best vibe from or whichever sport you enjoy more. Both will be more than fine if your primary concern is self defense and not mma or anything like that.
Learning both would be best, I agree. 3 years BJJ, 2 year Muay Thai, plus 1 year Krav Maga. Then for unarmed fights, you're well prepared. But as soon as somebody pulls a knife and knows a bit how to use it, even these martial arts will be only of little use. I'm quite an old fart. I trained Taekwon-Do, Ninjutsu, Wing Tsun and Krav Maga (but that was some time ago). I learned: Bruce Lee was right:Quote:
Originally Posted by flux
Attachment 81976
I'm quite sure this still applies. Also do fitness training. And don't believe much in the guys who say, "we don't do competition fights because our techniques are too dangerous". At least they should do some realistic sparring.
Now, I'm considering to start BJJ. I learned lots of punching and kicking but not enough wrestling. And maybe some good old boxing, if I find a good club where they are nice to me old guy.
As someone who has studied all the sub disciplines of MMA and teaches self defense I would prioritize BJJ over Muay Thai.
The first reason is that learning the movement mechanics to minimize and impose friction in the horizontal plane of fighting is the most counterintuitive thing one can learn to do. 6 months of BJJ can literally make you the one-eyed man in the land of the blind in a real world event.
Secondly as far as self defense goes, any pugilistic exchange is literally a puncher's chance. Notice the emphasis on exchange.....not striking or kneeing entangled (dirty boxing), not striking out to escape or a weapon, nor striking into a clinch.
Holding a traditional range of pugilism/boxing/kickboxing and exchanging like one learns in Muay Thai is extremely limited as a cross-over modality to self defense in my opinion.
Kicking and punching hard, fast, and accurately is vital to self defense. The modality of orthodox kick-boxing though compared to the modality of orthodox BJJ just doesn't have the crossover and efficacy IMO.
The best place to find those people who are good at wrestling tends to be in BJJ or MMA gyms, as adult wrestling programs tend to be nestled in those school's curriculum (like maybe tuesday is wrestling practice, wednesday is no-gi BJJ, and thursday is yes-gi BJJ)Quote:
Originally Posted by Warped Mindless
I think that wrestling is perhaps one of my favorite self defense forms, because it gives you the ability to put someone down and hold them down. You won't always need to strangle someone and breaking their limbs might be illegal given the context, but pulling some dude to the floor and smothering him until the cops arrive is a pretty solid option for almost every situation that would need to be solved by non lethal force.
But most of the state champ level wrestlers I know, I met in BJJ classes.
Agreed. And the best way to stay on your feet is to gain the posture learned from wrestling.Quote:
Originally Posted by 45dotACP
Wrestling should be the base in my opinion that everything else branches from.
Along these lines, what is your age and physical condition ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Totem Polar
While a skilled striker can be dangerous at any age, IME the training process to become skilled in the striking arts is harder on the body than BJJ or wrestling. And of course as we age we generally require more recovery time between training sessions.
I'd quibble this a bit and say that it gets WAY harder to take shots to the head as folks get older. I think hitting pads or the bag compared to grappling with an opponent is actually easier on one's body as they age.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCM
I could see that with pads or speed bag but my hands won't tolerate punching the heavy bag regularly anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
Hands, elbows, AND shoulders.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCM
Absolutely. I am fortunate to have started my first striking art while still in middle school, so I have a *lot* of laurel to rest upon. And I hear the earned testimony of SMEs like Cecil that striking is hard on the joints, eg. shoulders, wrists. That said, I’m getting my ass-kicked injury-wise in basic, bonehead BJJ. Frankly, I’ve spent more time off due to injury than I have on the mat. That’s what I get for *starting* BJJ at age 49, 4 years ago. Even in boxing, all I got was a bunch of fat and split lips, some puffy eyes, and a few painful trouncings at the hands of the resident USA amateur champ in “controlled sparring” (translation: all of us willing doofuses tried to take his block off, and he danced around taking his toll on our midsections until the bell’s sweet, sweet mercy rang for us…).Quote:
Originally Posted by HCM
I can still hit a heavy bag hard enough that people stop and do the RCA dog thing, looking at my skinny, old-guy frame, and the bag, but I’m really only good for 3 fundamental classes with a few moderate open rolls per week, max, in the No-gi place if I want to be able to function at work.
Sort of reminds me of people who grew up dirt biking or skiing, vs folks who take up skiing in middle age or buy a new Harley as their first bike after age 40. Anyone who cut their teeth in the dirt as a kid has no problem with the rear wheel on their Street Bob 114™️ slipping around on a gravel road, while the midlife crisis docs and US bank VPs can’t back the things out of a parking space without an adrenaline rush.
In BJJ, I’m that outlaw poser white collar Harley buyer.
All to say, I think there is a price to be paid for proficiency in *anything* worth learning, and that price becomes a lot steeper as one ages. I’m constantly eyeing the boxing workouts the next room over, with the ladder work and speed drills and mitt work, after puking up a lung during BJJ warmups, much less rolling—thinking that I’d love to go back to the pain I know because I’m not tough enough for this grappling shit. :D :D
So, I don’t know. I’m not disagreeing with you, but I can say that my experience is different.
ETA: Craig, who would know, posted shorter and better while I was typing my long-ass post and flirting with the coffeeshop staff. What he said.
I agree to some degree but would like to add: Good stretching exercises help me a lot. There I posted some of my favorites. Stretching and cardio training can keep one fitter than some guys who are 10 or even 20 years younger.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
What does "rolling" mean in this context? (I'm not a native English speaker nor BJJ practitioner.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Totem Polar
I spent almost exactly five years training at a large competitive MT program before switching full time to bjj. I was a sparring partner for many guys in camp during that time although I never fought above the inter-gym “smoker” level.
Some opinions to consider:
1. Good MT is much more difficult to find in the U.S. than good bjj. Most “MT” programs are really crappy kickboxing run by someone with almost zero actual ring experience. BJJ taught by real black belts is popping up everywhere.
2. Even the decent MT programs don’t emphasize clinching because most amateur leagues in the U.S. have rules that don’t allow many clinching techniques like elbows, sweeps, and throws. While MT clinching is different from self defense Greco style clinching, IME it was very easily translated once I was shown the different emphases and it helped me a lot in EWO for example.
3. I was in my mid thirties when I started MT and age was a huge factor. The repetitive nature of the small number of movements was a joint killer for me. Shoulders and hip flexors particularly. For example it’s common to throw several hundred kicks per leg in a class. Done carefully I’ve had many less injuries in bjj. The Thais do a great job of keeping training playful but IME most American coaches don’t follow that model.
4. Head trauma is scary. Working in the counter IED world for so long I learned a lot about repetitive head trauma. It was constantly on my mind. Even in a good “playful” Thai style program accidents happen, people lose their temper momentarily, etc.
I truly love both bjj and real traditional MT so it’s hard to pick one. But if I had to choose I’d pick bjj. If you could even find a good MT program there is less room for beginners mistakes IMO and so many civilian regular guy self defense scenarios require the aggressor to put hands on you to accomplish their goals.
Just some things to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P30
Thank you for the reminder. I suppose I should forget about "good old boxing" (need my brain for earning my money).Quote:
Originally Posted by EPF
In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, “rolling” is an all-encompassing term for sparring or drilling at varying degrees of intensity.Quote:
Originally Posted by P30
In the context of my post, it refers to non-consensual sparring with a variety of training partners in an ongoing attempt to incorporate the concepts and techniques worked on in fundamentals class, for roughly 5 minutes at a time.
:)
That one-eyed man comment is gold. To me, BJJ is like assymetrical warfare - it's astonishing how many attack vectors that discipline can teach you. If I could master one martial art, it would be BJJ (and I have 25 years of off and on boxing experience).Quote:
The first reason is that learning the movement mechanics to minimize and impose friction in the horizontal plane of fighting is the most counterintuitive thing one can learn to do. 6 months of BJJ can literally make you the one-eyed man in the land of the blind in a real world event.
Secondly as far as self defense goes, any pugilistic exchange is literally a puncher's chance. Notice the emphasis on exchange.....not striking or kneeing entangled (dirty boxing), not striking out to escape or a weapon, nor striking into a clinch.
Holding a traditional range of pugilism/boxing/kickboxing and exchanging like one learns in Muay Thai is extremely limited as a cross-over modality to self defense in my opinion.
However, every time I try BJJ I get injured. One of the challenges is that, at least as I have experienced it, you are sparring (rolling) from day 1. I am not sure that is such a good idea for people coming right off the street that are out of shape and have no skill, especially if you are rolling with someone else in the same situation. Even worse if you have pre-existing injuries you are trying to manage. In boxing, (again as I have experienced it), you need a good 4 months of heavy training to get a base before even getting in the ring. Once you are in the ring, you are watched by at least one coach. You can still get hurt, but at least you have more of a base and controlled environment when going full contact. Also, as been mentioned, the older you get the less you are going to want to risk your brain cells on a regular basis.
Boxing is fantastic for fitness and if you are just working out, you can manage how hard you hit the bags and which exercise do and don't work with your body. Its the only excercise I really enjoy doing but again, I don't do it for self-defense.
As far as boxing for self-defense, I dont' recommend it when people ask. As Craig alluded to, the application is limited and you are probably more likely to get yourself into situations you maybe shouldn't be in. If you get some fighting or sparring experience, it can help with your confidence and avoiding fights if you don't have a hot head. But I always tell people to invest in continual gun training first and foremost and skip the unarmed stuff until you get the first priority down.
Really, I think Craig has the best approach I have experienced - learn enough grappling to be able to get to your weapon and understand the stages of a fight and when it is appropriate to pull your weapon. I wish more gun training would take a more holistic approach beyond shooting to address managing violent encounters. The best gun training I have had to date is working through scenarios with simunitions.
I find no quarrel with anything posted by @FPS above. Spot on, IMO.
As someone who ain't good at any of this, BJJ (or the wrestling base Southnarc suggests) is the fastest way to survival and breathing room, so to speak. Being able to default to something, survive, realize you're OK, and then do something is amazing. MT, and others, just don't give you that. There's also the stay on your feet thing that comes from BJJ, while also having an answer to getting back to your feet, or having a response on the ground. The teaching/learning method is also the best. You're typically gonna have a balls out fight before you leave BJJ. You're gonna know what does and doesn't work. Your melon simply can't take that in striking.
Out of curiosity, do you find you prefer any particular style of wrestling?Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthNarc
I would think Greco would be a fantastic base for all the clinch work/entangled fighting, but my understanding is that Greco is a little less common here in the states.
Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
Most of the ShivWorks curriculum is driven by Greco. In fact the four hour common module to ECQC and EWO is "The Base of and Strategy for using Greco/Roman Wrestling in a Weapons Based Environment".Quote:
Originally Posted by 45dotACP
I was a blue belt, but that’s increasingly further away. I say that to classify myself. I think the repeated mantra in BJJ of “Position before submission” translates to this really well. Wrestling is getting your opponent in a position well. My take-downs needed the most work. To be honest, I want to put my kids in wrestling (years from now 7 months and 2.5 years old) because they’ll be in durable shape and young enough to heal quickly and learn.
But I feel like getting positional dominance and being able to get it when you need it is a way to turn a fight. BJJ’s great *when* you can get your opponent to the ground or to steer a scramble a certain way.
Anyway, I just find it really interesting and encouraging that wrestling is what’s being recommended highly because I honestly was already partially to this realization but it’s rewarding. Some day I’ll try to get back in to it.
I have not trained in bjj outside the Pat Miletich camp and mcmap. I wrestled in highschool in Illinois too along with a little judo. Besides that my background is striking. I started tang soo do when I was 6 and did a year or two of several other styles after I got my black belt. Including Okinawa and Thailand.
I think being able to be a very good striker is very important. I've ended altercations with a few hard fast strikes. Mostly it showed the other person I wasn't going to back down. Most ended with the person leaving.
I think grappling is a very good skill to have and for me, is harder to learn. I was a decent wrestler in HS. The guy who took my varsity spot my senior year did so because I graduated early to enlist. I think he got 3rd at State. The only times I've utilized aspects of grappling is as a bouncer holding people for the cops (which is miserable in the snow) and during restraints in the psych hospital, not that I'd wrestle the patient but body mechanics carried over great.
I can't say one is more important but because grappling for me is harder to get good I'd say start there but do both.
Huge proponent of BJJ and MT. Find a gym that offers both. Before I had my kiddos I was training about 10 hours a week. Sparring taught me to keep cool, think on your feet, keep your emotions in check, that was so helpful! I think both these arts will get ypu where you want, and are efficient. BJJ white belt at a year is still pretty damn tough. I asked my professor once, A Red Belt himself, what did a blackbelt offer? He said as purple, brown you will be able to submit and choke alot of people, but as a Black Belt you will be able to choke to submit most anyone. He is 145lbs wringing wet, and I watched him submit a pro 235lb wrestler in about a minute, humbling.
I’m a fan of and recommend both BJJ and MT and have trained in them a fair amount, but I’m no authority on either. I think the idea of wrestling as a base also has a great deal of merit.
My first instructor as a kid was a pretty interesting guy. The classes were advertised as Shotokan Karate, but he was a former Navy boxer and high school wrestler who incorporated both heavily into his classes along with a dash of Judo.
He worked with local wrestling programs and quite a few of the kids from the the local high school were also enrolled in his karate classes, so we were on the mats learning how to stuff takedowns and working out of the clinch as early as the mid-80’s. I trained there all through high school and I think it was a good foundation.
One thing he included that few did were what we simply called dumps(putting the opponent on the ground while you remain standing). These were largely modified wrestling and Judo that were once a focus of older karate teachings, but abandoned overtime as karate became more commercialized and sport oriented. I still think they make a lot of sense in the context of self-defense to facilitate an escape, access a weapon or even follow up with soccer kicks and stomps. They don’t really make a whole lot of sense in most sport applications, because of the rules and different goals and perhaps why we don’t see them utilized more, rather than not being practical or ineffective. Although they could be considered more difficult to apply effectively against a trained opponent more or less your equal. Nonetheless, they are just another option and worth exploring IMO. The last time I talked with John Hackleman, he really liked the concept as well for street use and has put out a couple of videos on the topic(that I think are public), so check those out for sure.
That's the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Totem Polar
Even more impressive given his age. He must be pushing 70 or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polecat
Yeah, it choked me up and humbled me when he said, “ there are only nine of us in the WORLD!” UnrealQuote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Racoon
There have been more than nine but I don't know how many are alive. Maybe it's down to nine now. Most aren't teaching on a regular basis and live in Brazil anyway, so to train with one would be a rare honor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polecat
Who is your instructor?