Reduced power 10mm loads for self defense

I typically carry ammunition that is a bit warmer then most here but it's not because I believe it will stop an assailant faster than standard 9-45 service jhp loads but because I don't think they will be worse and I have bear and moose in my back yard. 170gr swc @1200fps or 255gr swc @ 950fps gets me to where I think I want to be. So far the coyotes drop faster with blood and bone sprayed farther than when using standard 9-45 jhps.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

My only use for a 10mm is for grizzly defense. But instead of having to travel with two guns, I also carry my G20 in a general defensive role, in and around town. I carry two mags: 1) Hardcast penetrators over an extra power magazine spring, and 2) HST 200gr in a standard mag. I have HST in the chamber, making it easy to swap mags at the trailhead. And, HST would hopefully be effective if there was a large animal attack when that mag was in the gun.

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Those HST’s are wicked rounds but are they enough for a bear? Wolf or mountain lion, I don’t think would be an issue but something thick skinned as a hog or a bear, would they penetrate? I mean, I know you have the hard cast reinforcements patiently waiting in the magazine just in case the HST is ineffective, I’m just asking.


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Originally Posted by corneileous

Those HST’s are wicked rounds but are they enough for a bear? Wolf or mountain lion, I don’t think would be an issue but something thick skinned as a hog or a bear, would they penetrate? I mean, I know you have the hard cast reinforcements patiently waiting in the magazine just in case the HST is ineffective, I’m just asking.

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When I'm hiking, the mag with hard cast is in the gun. First shot will probably be a warning shot, so the HST in the chamber would likely get used for that.

For black bear, I'm confident that HST could do the job. If I'm unlucky enough to attacked by a grizzly in a town... I suppose it could happen.

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Originally Posted by corneileous

Those HST’s are wicked rounds but are they enough for a bear? Wolf or mountain lion, I don’t think would be an issue but something thick skinned as a hog or a bear, would they penetrate? I mean, I know you have the hard cast reinforcements patiently waiting in the magazine just in case the HST is ineffective, I’m just asking.


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Wolves and big cats are thin skinned and not that hard to kill. Standard handgun ammo that is applicable for human threats will work fine for them. Large bears are another matter. Where my folks live, which is about 2.5 hours away, he has a huge population of wolves, and I can use coyote callers on his deck and get them to answer me (which completely freaks out guests :D) a number of them have met their demise from pistol bullets. 230 grain Gold Dots from 45ACPs will ball them up . My dad's buddy that my dad used to chase lions with (using dogs) up and down the mountains when he was in his 60s, usually carried a .22 hornet and used that on the lions (and a few wolves). Personally when wolf hunting with a rifle I carried at least a .223, but that is just my preference.

I have a healthy lion population (as well as wolves)by my cabin and I am totally comfortable with just a 9mm and hardcast flatpoints penetrator loads for them. Normally I carry something bigger in case I run into a bear, but the point is that lions and wolves are not hard to kill.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

When I'm hiking, the mag with hard cast is in the gun. First shot will probably be a warning shot, so the HST in the chamber would likely get used for that.

For black bear, I'm confident that HST could do the job. If I'm unlucky enough to attacked by a grizzly in a town... I suppose it could happen.

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I never thought of it being used for a warning shot but like I said, even if it did keep coming after the HST, the next rounds to follow are the heavy-hitters.


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Originally Posted by corneileous

Those HST’s are wicked rounds but are they enough for a bear? Wolf or mountain lion, I don’t think would be an issue but something thick skinned as a hog or a bear, would they penetrate? I mean, I know you have the hard cast reinforcements patiently waiting in the magazine just in case the HST is ineffective, I’m just asking.


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I think you are getting into paralysis through analysis. Think about a typical split time. .17, .18 maybe? Point is that that HST is going to be gone and a couple more heavy hard cast bullets are going to be gone with it, in less time that it takes to say "bang-bang-bang".

The other thing is that you are not going to wait to see if the HST is effective or ineffective. In high stress shootings people tend to shoot in volleys. "stressful emotional volley fire" is absolutely a real thing". Guys don't shoot once and then say "well lets see how that works". They tend to dump a bunch of rounds until they see a change in the dynamic or they get control of themselves emotionally.

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Originally Posted by Lost River

Wolves and big cats are thin skinned and not that hard to kill. Standard handgun ammo that is applicable for human threats will work fine for them. Large bears are another matter. Where my folks live, which is about 2.5 hours away, he has a huge population of wolves, and I can use coyote callers on his deck and get them to answer me (which completely freaks out guests :D) a number of them have met their demise from pistol bullets. 230 grain Gold Dots from 45ACPs will ball them up . My dad's buddy that my dad used to chase lions with (using dogs) up and down the mountains when he was in his 60s, usually carried a .22 hornet and used that on the lions (and a few wolves). Personally when wolf hunting with a rifle I carried at least a .223, but that is just my preference.

I have a healthy lion population (as well as wolves)by my cabin and I am totally comfortable with just a 9mm and hardcast flatpoints penetrator loads for them. Normally I carry something bigger in case I run into a bear, but the point is that lions and wolves are not hard to kill.

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Interesting. So for what we have here in Oklahoma, the only thing really that would probably require that much penetration would be for a hog that we have a ton of…. Since we supposedly have no wolves here, I wonder how my Springfield XDE 45 would do against a cougar being that it’s loaded with the Gold Dot HP’s that Speer says is formulated for a short-barreled pistol…

You’ve given me hope tho if my PX4 45 Storm was what I had now that it’s loaded with the same 230-g HST’s you talked about wadding up wolves.


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You could just swap springs, load a moderately heavy hardcast for everything and call it good.

In my Glock 21 with 10MM barrel, I am running a 200 grain hardcast flatpoint at 1150 FPS. I use a heavier than standard Wolff gunspring (though I designed the load to run reliably using a stock RSA).

This load is plenty for any bear, for vehicles people, etc. Just a good all around load, and is not abusive to the shooter, recoil wise. It makes things easy.


https://i.imgur.com/dGAzP3F.jpg?1

This was two days ago at a place I was staying and hiking out of .

Barry the Bear was eating a lot of berries and pooping every few hours.

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Originally Posted by corneileous

Interesting. So for what we have here in Oklahoma, the only thing really that would probably require that much penetration would be for a hog that we have a ton of…. Since we supposedly have no wolves here, I wonder how my Springfield XDE 45 would do against a cougar being that it’s loaded with the Gold Dot HP’s that Speer says is formulated for a short-barreled pistol…

You’ve given me hope tho if my PX4 45 Storm was what I had now that it’s loaded with the same 230-g HST’s you talked about wadding up wolves.


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Your 45 is plenty. I have killed elk with a 1911.

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Originally Posted by Lost River

I think you are getting into paralysis through analysis. Think about a typical split time. .17, .18 maybe? Point is that that HST is going to be gone and a couple more heavy hard cast bullets are going to be gone with it, in less time that it takes to say "bang-bang-bang".

The other thing is that you are not going to wait to see if the HST is effective or ineffective. In high stress shootings people tend to shoot in volleys. "stressful emotional volley fire" is absolutely a real thing". Guys don't shoot once and then say "well lets see how that works". They tend to dump a bunch of rounds until they see a change in the dynamic or they get control of themselves emotionally.

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Being that I’ve never had to shoot at any animal in self defense, I don’t think “paralysis through analysis” applies here because I just simply don’t know these answers and I’m just asking questions for knowledge and a lot of you guys seem to know what you’re talking about so I feel I picked the right place to ask.


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