Practice Drawing to low ready as a deterrent?!

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Originally Posted by vcdgrips

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

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My thinking is the same as yours but I haven’t tested hand-on-holstered-pistol on a timer yet. I know that at closer distances (7y and in) I can generally get a shot from a low ready on a larger target (8.5”x11” paper) in about 0.6s. If I’ve been shooting and dry practicing often leading up to it, I can get it done around 0.5s. I can’t imagine hand-on-holstered-pistol reaching those speeds. From low ready you already have a complete two handed grip established and your arms at the appropriate level of extension. All you have to do is bring the sights up to your eye line and press the trigger. From hand-on-holstered-pistol you have to remove the gun from the holster, orient the muzzle towards the threat, acquire a two handed grip, extend the gun out from your torso area, bring the sights to your eye line, and press the trigger. That’s a lot of steps compared to shooting from a low ready. You can save some time by doing a couple of those steps together (remove the gun from the holster while orienting the muzzle towards the threat; and extend the gun out from your torso area while bringing the sights to your eye and taking the slack out of the trigger) but the same is true of shooting from the low ready (bring the sights up to your eye line while taking the slack out of the trigger). I’ll try it dry first out of curiosity. I might try it live at some point if I can remember.

ETA: I was discussing two handed shooting to keep it apples to apples, but I can see reaching low ready speeds from hand-on-holstered-pistol if you’re close enough to make SHO shots work based on your skill level. Ripping the gun out of the holster and driving it directly to the threat could get some smoking fast times done. Also, we’re talking about differences likely measured in tenths of a second, so do they matter in the real world? Quite possibly not. I think once you’re talking about sub-second time frames, they’re all close enough to not make much of a difference. If I try to hit you in the chest from the low ready in 0.5s while you try to hit me in the chest from hand-on-holstered-pistol in 0.75s, the end result is that we both just got shot on the chest and it probably won’t matter that one bullet impacted a quarter second before the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vcdgrips

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

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I've got some thoughts if you don't mind hearing them. First off, great questions. I won't tackle all of those, and I only answer as a civilian here, but there are a couple of intermingling concepts here that probably need to be disentangled.

Issue #1) Is it appropriate to draw to a ready position to begin with? Is an attack that warrants the use of deadly force imminent?

If it is not, drawing to a ready position is not legally supported for a civilian, full stop I think! Legal experts please correct me if I’m wrong.

If it is not, but there is some reasonable suspicion that there may possibly be, one can make the argument that getting a good grip and attempting to evade and escape, or even just evade and escape (if possible), is the correct move, NOT drawing to a ready position.

If the perp starts reaching for something suspicious in their waist band, for example, especially if they demonstrate Intent and Opportunity, but not yet the Means to warrant a response with deadly force, only then is drawing to a ready position justified, in my way of thinking.

If the attacker initiates an attack with deadly force quickly and without pause, in essence ambushing you, you’ll already be behind the reaction curve, and drawing to a ready position will just turn you into a corpse more quickly at that point. But I think that’s super obvious and we all agree on that. Hopefully that OODA loop thing was working for you and you won’t find yourself in this unfortunate position.

Again, for LEO’s I imagine that drawing to a ready position sooner rather than later is probably the best move in situations where enough suspicion is created by the person of interest that a justified use of deadly force is likely, or even just highly possible, I’m supposing.
And like people have already described, this type of deterrence may serve to in fact de-escalate the situation by deterring the initiation of any deadly plans by the person of interest, thereby being a great potential life saver.

And whereas hand on gun seems to me a better tactic for civilians to use in certain situations as already discussed, I’m not sure how applicable this tactic would be for LEO’s. I guess it depends on the level of concern that the officer would have, not to mention their level and type of training.

Issue #2) Practical Performance metrics between the various ready positions vs hand on gun

I think a draw from concealment of less than 1.5s with A zone hits at 7 yards is doable for most people that consistently train. I’m not sure what a typical LEO can do from a duty Level II/III holster, but I think that 1.5s or less is also doable. Using those numbers to extrapolate I’m guessing that a draw from a master grip would be around 0.8 - 1.0 second?

I’ve never timed it, or it has been so long I’ve forgotten, but I’m fairly certain that the time to an A zone hit for a well trained shooter from a low ready will be significantly faster..I’m guessing around 0.5s, or even less.
So yes I wouldn’t be surprised if for most people getting on target from the low ready is significantly faster than from master grip on gun.

But Performance Metrics and Appropriateness of Use are two different issues, and they are different again when comparing LEO’s and non LEO’s. I’m becoming more and more convinced as I’m thinking through this that for a non LEO, there will be a lot more instances when getting a good grip on the gun (and creating distance), is more appropriate than drawing to a ready position (even if one then still creates distance).

But ultimately the spectrum of responses, from hand on gun, to draw to first shot vs draw to a ready position, vs draw to gun aimed but finger along the frame, etc. etc. will all be dictated by the different scenarios in play. And I guess practicing for all of these scenarios is probably the best thing to do.

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Originally Posted by JohnO

No. Chuck had one Ready position and that was what everyone would call Low Ready. Chuck didn't care for a Ready position where the muzzle was covering the target. He viewed that as an accident waiting to happen.

Chuck taught that the distance to the target determined the Ready position. With a target at 3 meters the Ready was held lower than a target at 15 meters.

Chuck's Ready position included a full firing grip and stance. The Up in the "Draw to the Ready, Up, Look, Press" was a pivot at the shoulder joint to raise the gun onto the target.

Everything above was Chuck's way of teaching flat range classes from beginner to skilled shooters. Chuck also taught tactical applications classes where ready positions and draw techniques were modified based on the situation. e.g. If you are facing and against a car you are not going to draw to the typical 45 degree Ready position. Chuck would say the scenario would dictate your draw stroke, "Solve the problem."

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Thanks for that explanation, very interesting.

Just my opinion, but this doesn't seem like something that needs to be practiced. For me at least, I don't see the value. Drawing and going to a low ready isn't a difficult task for most. I don't know that I would draw my firearm in a non LE setting where I was not going to use it. Lethal force as a deterrent is not something I want to do. Its either drawing because the decision has been made or not drawing at all in a non LE role.

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Originally Posted by breakingtime91

That is what I reserve a hard low ready for, when I can articulate why I used it, to try to avoid killing someone.

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Technical question regarding safeties.

In that situation, was the safety still on or off?

Would it change if you had a handgun with safety?

DASA?

Finger outside trigger guard?

Depends?

I can see a range of reasonable options.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

I like practicing the following:
1) Draw to ready (high, low, thumb-pec index)
2) Draw and shoot
3) Draw, start to press the trigger, and abort the shot

Credit: @Mr_White

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#3 is often overlooked. The situation can change before the trigger breaks,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vcdgrips

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

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The context from which this came was a friend (with a deep background of training and operational experience) training a class of a Federal agency (may have been an instructor course) that was similarly concerned about drawn guns, use of force continuum etc much like this thread's discussion. He offered this, demo'd it and they worked it, measured it and found any time penalty to be insignificant. FWIW. For my money it's worth the streamlining of the possibly challenging cognitive stuff I'll be dealing with in such an event.

Re the bolded part - that may be common in LE but that's very close to committing an assault in some jurisdictions if one has mis-calculated. I believe that to be accurate. How does one prove I wasn't muzzling the guy's knees for example. In my Fed example I believe they did not want their muzzle that close to "no-shoots" or "not yet shoots" being evaluated and receiving commands. So they may have been comparing it to a muzzle down just in front of their own feet. I'm not sure about that either way, but sorta think so.

Note, a carbine generally speaking is always exposed and in my hands in some manner. Not so with my concealed pistol.

In addition to what if's like the event evolves to not shooting but other problem solving, and I've got a drawn gun, there is the risk of appearing to be a threat to any responding LE or off duty LE or another civilian gun carrier. The latter is concerning me more and more. I'm confident most are not so switched on around this locale.

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Originally Posted by Hambo

#3 is often overlooked. The situation can change before the trigger breaks,

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I like practicing this with a random timer/popup.

I also like practicing going for pepper spray and dropping it and going for the pistol on a random. The very act of reaching can cause people to draw.

I really like the DC hoodies @JHC mentioned and I had some homemade ones prior to their availability but the truth is a lot of people that had certain upbringings are going to view reaching in a hoodie pocket as a prelude to a gun coming out. I think that has a part in the discussion as well.

With the hoodies with the pocket cut out: I worry about fouling the draw; threading the pistol through the hole and pocket, particularly with a service auto.

I also worry about learning yet another draw stroke.

I can see advantage to shooting through the pocket if very close if hand is already gripping 340 etc… in pocket.

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Originally Posted by JCN

Technical question regarding safeties.

In that situation, was the safety still on or off?

Would it change if you had a handgun with safety?

DASA?

Finger outside trigger guard?

Depends?

I can see a range of reasonable options.

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I keep safeties on and finger straight until I'm moving my sights to my eye. Safety goes off on the way up, as soon as off my sighting system safety is on