First time purchase (newbee) Glock gen 3 or S & W M&P

It's not just gun store clerks(though they should be held under the most suspicion as they are trying to sell you something). It's everyone. Friends, family, co-workers, magazines, other media. They all either spread lies or misinformation.I would almost say don't believe anything you hear anywhere unless it comes from someone who is A) a known reputable source, or B) a well known documented fact that you can hear from multiple sources.

I don't know how long I labored under the idea that slower heavier bullets would penetrate inside barriers less than faster traveling rounds.

Just automatically take everything you hear with a grain of salt until you can verify it someway.

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Originally Posted by Rains on Parades

It's not just gun store clerks(though they should be held under the most suspicion as they are trying to sell you something). It's everyone. Friends, family, co-workers, magazines, other media. They all either spread lies or misinformation.I would almost say don't believe anything you hear anywhere unless it comes from someone who is A) a known reputable source, or B) a well known documented fact that you can hear from multiple sources.

I don't know how long I labored under the idea that slower heavier bullets would penetrate inside barriers less than faster traveling rounds.

Just automatically take everything you hear with a grain of salt until you can verify it someway.

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I agree, though a large part of the problem is the lack of empirical information regarding firearms; verification is difficult. It's incredibly frustrating that the "best" source of information on firearms on the internet is forums. Regrettably, opinion and anecdotes rule the day, and there isn't nearly as much hard information floating around as I'd like.

I think a lot of the firearm community (myself included, initially) is a little too focused on the weapons, and not nearly focused enough on the shooter. People will spend thousands of dollars buying guns and ammunition, without ever dropping a dollar on training. That's one of the reasons I like TLG's site and these forums. They're not necessarily scientific, per se, but his firearm tests are closer to a practical firearm endurance test than I've seen elsewhere. Even better, the 'software' forum is an awesome place to lurk to learn and improve.

It can be safely said that most of the gun-buying public is...unsophisticated...at best. For whatever reason the ream of firearms is particularly susceptible to lore, fish stories (it blew a hole in 'im this big!), and other assorted forms of nonsense. Lots of people mean well but simply don't know what they don't know. Lots of people are convinced that being born with testes makes them a weapons expert and aren't the least bit bashful about sharing their "wisdom" with others looking for answers. Lots of people don't understand how to process information properly.

An example:

On another board during Hurricane Katrina someone noted that there were a lot of Remington 870's visible in the pictures of people trying to survive and protect themselves. This led to a spectacular example of group think and a general consensus that the 870 must be the ultimate SHTF weapon since so many people were using it once the S had actually HTF. I saw those pictures and had a very different theory: That there are a lot of hunters out there and that just about every single one of them has at one time or another purchased a Remington 870. If I remember correctly it's the single most popular shotgun in history and may be the best selling commercial firearm of all time. This means that there are countless thousands of them out there. In the aftermath of a natural disaster when social order had broken down, people were not going to a James Bond style bunker somewhere in their house to select the best weapon for the task out of dozens of possibilities. In an emergency they realized they needed some sort of gun and they went into the closet, pulled the 870 they'd killed birds with out of the case and pressed it into duty as bad guy repellent. I theorized that in an emergency they were making due with probably the only long gun they had, or possibly the only firearm they owned at all. It was the first bit of reasoned thought injected into that conversation. Had it not happened there would be a lot of people from that discussion out there preaching the virtues of the 870 as the ultimate post-apocalypse weapon.

There are also lots of people who don't know the limitations of their knowledge. Friends are always asking me gun questions because I'm the biggest gun geek they know...but my geekery pretty much ends at handguns, and in the order of geekery I'm barely a padawan. I know a little bit about the AR-15 family of weapons and a very little bit about AK pattern weapons and only bits and pieces of collector guns. Sniper/long range rifles? I'm utterly clueless. I always try and explain the limitations of my knowledge when I'm giving advice so that the other person knows that I could be woefully incorrect. I hate to steer people wrong.

Many simply don't care if they are or not. This is one of the reasons why I never excelled in sales positions. Too much empathy for the poor customer.

Bryan,

If you are stuck between a glock and a M&P, borrow one of each or rent one and shoot them, see which one fits you better. Then get that one, extra mags, ammo and shoot the snot outa it. Take a class or two and get proficient with your gun. I used to have M&P's and glocks and made the switch to glocks and I just practice with them and shoot them. Glocks fit me and are good for what I use them for. I think that is the bottom line. Don't let an employee feed you a line of crap, shoot each gun then make your decision based off how you like the guns. Get that one and practice, practice.

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Originally Posted by TCinVA

I saw those pictures and had a very different theory: That there are a lot of hunters out there and that just about every single one of them has at one time or another purchased a Remington 870. If I remember correctly it's the single most popular shotgun in history and may be the best selling commercial firearm of all time. This means that there are countless thousands of them out there.

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There have been over ten million 870s sold since 1950. You're right --you see a lot of them because there are a lot of them.

There was one more selling point, I hope I wasn't lied to but from what the salesmen said at Gander Mountain and Cabela's, the Glock has no warranty and the M&P has a lifetime warranty...

I do not know what Glock's official warranty is at the moment. I do know the head men over warranty matters at both Glock and S&W and the woman at Ruger in AZ. All three firms take customer satisfaction very seriously. Last year Doug R. at Glock replaced a pistol that was purchased second hand and was damaged when fired with defective ammo. Warranty does not get any better than such. About two years ago a student with an ex-police department, 35 year old, S&W model 39 had the safety break because of being left too hard after heat treatment when manfactured. Initially they were going to charge for repairs. At my suggestion, the student called and talked to Ron B. S&W went completely through the pistol replacing several parts and returned it to him at no charge. It does not get any better than that.

Ruger chooses to have no stated warranty for legal reasons. They have a well earned reputation for standing behind their products as well as any manufacturer, and much better than some manufacturers with so called "lifetime warranties".

There is one well known firm with a "lifetime warranty" for the original purchaser, only. They wanted to charge me about $150.00 for a new slide (part only) to replace the original that had cracked at the muzzle end.. The original slide was left excessively hard after "heat treat" by a contract job shop. Apparently, this firm has not heard of the implied warranties of "merchantablity" and "fitness for designed or intended use"; or the 35 million Jennings/Bryco lawsuit judgement involving a Bryco .380 pistol.

Often the best warranty is the one you never need.

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Originally Posted by johnvolk

the Glock has no warranty

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I believe they have a 1 year warranty. They'll fix many issues, at no cost, well beyond the initial 1 year.

Kyle DeFoor on Glock warranty (Glock replaced the barrel)

OK, it this thread is still active, I have another question.

Is it OK to leave the clips loaded?
I'm wondering if the clip is left loaded that the spring will get weak ..

Cycling wears springs more than constant load.

Feel free to leave your magazines topped off if you like. :)