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Somewhere around here are a couple of threads on practical fighting bolt guns that are pretty informative. Based on the premise that they are useful today, and likely one of the last guns to go given adverse legislation.
Building specific skill sets on those guns seems prudent. On my own to-do list:
Randy Cain's Practical Rifle course: https://guntactics.com/rifle.php
Larry Mudgett's Bolt Action Rifle course: http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/c...-rifle-course/
If the left advances bans, they will also advance legislation which burdens manufacturers of ammunition and firearms. I don't expect product development to be well funded in a post-ban era. This isn't '94 2.0; this will tumble much faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by pangloss
As HCM says, we don't know what a ban would encompass. The original AWB was a failure for its supposed purpose because of existing guns and the production of new ARs that were compliant and second, the existence of guns like the Mini-14s. This has been clearly pointed out in the criminology research. Rampages occurred with 10 round mags.
Thus a competent (so to speak) AWB will take out all magazine fed semis. Would this actually occur? Probably not. Would the ban allow guns with 'fixed' mags like the Garands, SKS or the strange ARs that use a speed loader with a fixed 10 round mag?
So one proposes lever action, bolt guns, semi and pump shotguns, maybe 22 LR semis will survive. However, the countries that went for bans like Australia expanded them and expanded them and then went for the work arounds (like lever action shotguns).
BTW, if you decide to go bolt, pump, lever action for SD - you'd better train, train, train for competent use. I've seen folks run a bolt competently in an IDPA style carbine match. Basically, one shot per target and it's slow objectively even though the user was fast for the gun type. With levers, one guy just jammed and jammed. Of course there are competent folks with those guns and they did the work.
We are better off fighting the bans legislatively or judicially. That might be a lost cause in some states and Scotus is big unknown as to a decisive finding. I doubt the current Congress with either party in 'control' would do squat to protect gun rights. The Democrats might go for a ban but electoral fears might not let it truly come to fruition. Who is to know?
Want to be 'prepared' - get a Mini-14 and semi shotgun. You can always get a lever gun with that panic hits for $3500 or so.
By competent, I meant that the ban proposers actually knew firearms and were aware of work arounds, the problems of guns of equal efficacy being produced, the existing stocks of guns and proposed measures to take off of those out. No positive implication on my part. The things that go up crowd were not designing the bans.
About the 7615P, when I was looking into EBR opinion, I found that it was proposed for two reasons:
1. Trying to get a 223 rifle into police hands that was not an EBR, militarized appearing gun that was politically incorrect. Lots of city council discussion of evil guns that were military styled.
2. A claim that since officers had experience with pump guns, they could 'understand' a similarly operated rifle. I guess ARs were too complicated.
Mini-14s had the nice gun appearance also. Wood, you know (mine is black and stainless - evil). As an anecdote, meaning nothing, I was driving to Austin from SA on IH-35 and outside of Shertz and there were a zillion police cars on the road. Lots and lots of folks were running into the fields carrying Mini-14s (quite a few years ago). I thought, well if lots of folks are running around with long arms - perhaps I should keep driving!! Seems some escaped horror show guy ditched into the fields.
My personal solution, with no ban in place, is a Benelli M2. Two of them, actually, and, now that availability has returned, I may yet add a third Benelli, perhaps an M4, or the version of the Ethos that has Benelli’s top-tier corrosion-resistant finish. One of mine, at least, is due to get a Aimpoint, soon. The Comfort-Tech stock REALLY does help mitigate recoil. Why the shotgun? Well, see what HCM already typed. Plus, I toted personally-owned duty shotguns for more three decades. Familiarity is comforting. Defensive things seem to happen within the effective range of the shotgun.
With some training, one can learn to keep a shotgun fed.
A Benelli M2 is notably light in weight, easy to tote, on a sling or in-hand, for long distances, while moving quickly. Some part of my body’s moving parts no longer work so well, and my upper spine is having some problems, so, light weight is a good thing.
I feel no desire to attend a high-volume-fire carbine school, but if I did, I reckon a “californicated” AR/M4-ish could be my hobby carbine. I have nothing against long gun training, but would rather attend a good defensive shotgun class.
Once upon a time, I would have mentioned a Mini-14, but there have been indications that the Mini is not going to slip through the cracks, next time ‘round.
I would like to add an M1 Garand, sooner or later, but more for owning a shoot-able piece of history, than defense.
There is a certain amount of self deception in the Cooper school of "fighting bolt guns."Quote:
Originally Posted by ST911
For fighting at longer distances (100 to 300 plus yards) a bolt gun still has some utility.
However, outside the fantasy of re-fighting the Boer war that the late Col Cooper and some of his disciples fall victim to, the bolt gun has little utility in fighting at realistic distances for CONUS defensive scenarios i.e. inside 50 (or 25) yards.Quote:
at practical distances under field conditions
Lever guns are better at those realistic ranges but at the cost of complexity and fragility.
Lever guns were mythologized in an era when they were "overmatch" vs opponents armed with single shot rifles and revolvers but once everyone had manually operated repeaters every significant military or institutional user went with bolt guns.
I like my scout rifle (and prefer it to lever guns) but I'm realistic about what it is, and is not.
There is a school of thought that bans on modern weapons are ok because I can just go to gun school and become Simo Häyhä. It's a dangerous fantasy that will end badly.
Browning BAR MK3 DBM
It's possible I've misread Cooper but I'm pretty sure conceptually the Scout was intended as a hunting rifle that could double as a defensive arm for a person solo out in the field. I think for the sort of shorter ranged tactical distances you're talking about he would have encouraged use of the "social shotgun".Quote:
Originally Posted by HCM
It's the Dunning-Cowboy-Kruger effect reinforced by watching videos of folks shooting some of the guns. In a way, it's like the endless debate by some who want to refloat the Iowa battleships, spouting WWII relevant statistics.
I'm watching a debate from some old toot pushing a tactical single round shotgun because he saw Clint Smith run one on steel plates and then the folks who spout the average 3,3,3 - 5 is enough mantras denounce as nuts those who suggest it is reasonable to have more capacity. I've mentioned the NTI shoot house with a double barrel, multiple opponents, you running around with box of mixed bird and slugs. Bet they never did that or even run a shotgun in a 3 guns, IDPA or whatever style match. As I mentioned, I had to butt stroke a surprise target after taking out the two obvious ones. I'm an old professor - I don't need to do that.
Michael Bane’s scoutish BLR .223 is an interesting 50 state legal solution. Only real challenge is crazy expensive 5 round mags.
https://www.michaelbane.tv/how-to-st...of-jail/49208/