Always sad to hear about losing an officer. We also lost a Harris Count Deputy here in the SE Texas area.
Always sad to hear about losing an officer. We also lost a Harris Count Deputy here in the SE Texas area.
A strong possibility is that uncertainty about what qualifies as a justifiable shooting contributed to the officer's death. Hesitation allowed the criminal to grab his weapon. Had he fired would the officer been charged with shooting an unarmed man?
It didn't happen because their officers have not been trained to do it. Under the stress of a life-threatening encounter, officers default to training. I suspect NYPD has never trained officers to move in and make a contact head or torso shot, At the moment of truth, officers resorted to what they practiced on the range.Quote:
Originally Posted by blues
Not to throw bricks and bottles at NYPD, I don't believe we ever did this training when I was relevant. As most of us know, one has a limited amount of time to train officers. Stuff doesn't get covered because other stuff--equally valuable--is being covered.
During my long career with a large neighboring county pd, as well as my time assigned to firearms training, I can concur with ^^^^^ this ^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd
In the politically correct, liberal atmosphere we exist in here (greater NY area), training is predominately static regimented firearms qualifications, with little, if any, dynamic training. There are reasons for this (logistics, safety, etc.) but the one time a year we go to the Range it's purely a matter of getting a passing score (70%) and coming back next year. Some of our FTS staff get it, but the best they can offer is a mention of life saving tactics in the classroom, with no repetitions or actual hands on practice. The only place I know of to receive this sort of training is with a Tier 1 instructor, but we all know most LEOs rarely afford themselves such training.
I don't blame our brothers and sisters in blue here for what happened- this is a real tragedy that needs to be addressed and analyzed and hopefully prevented in the future.
NYPD reacts... https://www.newsday.com/long-island/...ternoon-Update
I’m not the Police, so I would be interested to hear an opinion from an actual cop about the FATS simulator being a good way to train for an entangled shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Det1397
It’s definitely nowhere near as effective or applicable as properly orchestrated FoF but it’s better than “webinars” as mentioned in the article. I don’t remember ever seeing an entangled fight scenario on a FATS like you would see at an ECQC class but I think the department would be able to record additional scenarios if they wanted. See a friendly in a FUT, run up to the screen and try for a contact shot, then discuss with your team and the instructor. Even war gaming the scenarios with your team is better than nothing. The best way to do it would probably be FoF with sims or even blue guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballoflaco
During one of the HK ITD courses I attended, the contact officer grappled with the suspect. As cover or back-up officer, the trainee approached with a blue-gun and delivered a contact shot. This obviously wasn't a perfect training scenario. No one knows what any bullet will do once it strikes the human body. The round may expand and stop in the suspect's body, it may penetrate the suspect's body and impact whatever is beyond, or it could take some unexpected path and over-penetrate into whatever is beyond.
The significant value of the exercise is that it trained officers for a realistic response to the situation, even if the response may not result in optimal effect in the real world. It provided the experience and impressed the value of closing distance and making a contact shot rather than making a hostage rescue shot on a bad guy grappling with a good guy.
While I've trained on various simulators, was certified to use my previous department's system, and think they have a lot of value, I'm not sure their use is as valuable to this scenario as they are for many others.
It's been years, but the one FATS training scenario I recalled that was sort of close was a perp about to kick my partner while he was on the ground. I shot the perp twice and of course the scenario stopped.
Questioned about why I fired, I simply replied a kick to the head could be lethal.
The trainer was good with that response and we continued from there.
As mentioned above, the only real way to train for the present scenario is in live action with blue guns or other training weapons.
It's good to hear that this tragedy is at least causing the department to address its training for such scenarios.