"Knives don't work well and you will go to prison no matter what!"

I've always carried a fixed blade knife in appendix carry opposite my gun for obvious reasons. I know many others here, as well a many credible dudes outside the forum, carries a small fixed blade as well.

Lately, however, I have seen a few "experts" (Varg Freeborn most recently) decry the use of any knife for defensive encounters. Their reasons almost always boil down to two things:

1) Knives don't work as well as most think and it will take over 20 - 30 stabs for them to be effective and it will take to long for this to happen.

2) If you use a knife you will go to prison no matter what because people (the cops and jury especially) are conditioned to believe that knives are a tool of thugs and other evil men only.

Opinions?

Personally I mostly disagree with #1 but somewhat agree with #2. That said, if I deploy my knife its because I can't or won't use my gun due to various reasons. If you have training you likely understand why. If I have my knife ifts because im fighting for my life and I don't feel I have other options but to use my blade to create space. I feel that if the knife user knows what he is doing, this is very possible which is why I disagree with point one.

As for the second point, better alive in prison than dead in the ground.

Discuss.

I took a weapon retention & disarming class from Michael de Bethencourt years ago where he recommended a pink Spyderco Delica because it would not look too aggressive or tactical if used. I never bothered getting a pink knife.

https://images.knifecenter.com/thumb...ages/11ppn.jpg

Ultimately a knife is a tool. Use it if you need to.

Who the fuck is Varg Freeborn?

Oh wait now I remember a discussion about him in this thread. From what I can tell, Freeborn's position is colored extremely by his personal experience, which seems to have been very negative and is likely a result of stupid people stupid places stupid decisions.

I'm not saying you might not face more scrutiny by a jury for using a knife, but it doesn't actually seem to bear out frequently in trials (if it goes that far). In fact, one argument in favor of contact weapon use is that said bad actor is now in your face and your opportunities to escape are limited. In other words there is less, "Shoot the gun/knife out of his hand." kind of thinking and when put in your shoes, your jury must consider, "If someone was up on me, trying to stab me, would I have done the same thing if all I had was a small utility knife?"

As far as knives not working well - yea the evidence doesn't support that claim - at all. Anecdotal evidence indicates that stabbings are considerably more lethal than handgun shootings. It may take longer for the assailant to stop than a cranial vault shot does, but stab someone 20 or 30 times? Chances of them coming out of that, alive, are low.

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Originally Posted by RevolverRob

Who the fuck is Varg Freeborn?

Oh wait now I remember a discussion about him in this thread. From what I can tell, Freeborn's position is colored extremely by his personal experience, which seems to have been very negative and is likely a result of stupid people stupid places stupid decisions.

I'm not saying you might not face more scrutiny by a jury for using a knife, but it doesn't actually seem to bear out frequently in trials (if it goes that far). In fact, one argument in favor of contact weapon use is that said bad actor is now in your face and your opportunities to escape are limited. In other words there is less, "Shoot the gun/knife out of his hand." kind of thinking and when put in your shoes, your jury must consider, "If someone was up on me, trying to stab me, would I have done the same thing if all I had was a small utility knife?"

As far as knives not working well - yea the evidence doesn't support that claim - at all. Anecdotal evidence indicates that stabbings are considerably more lethal than handgun shootings. It may take longer for the assailant to stop than a cranial vault shot does, but stab someone 20 or 30 times? Chances of them coming out of that, alive, are low.

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As to your last point: after making my post I got curious and searched for news stories where someone used a knife in self defense. Took me all of 10 minutes to find multiple stories where many people, pretty much all seemingly untrained, used a pocket knife to fight off attackers. One case a woman used a pocket knife to fend off two rapist. Just something interesting...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warped Mindless

I've always carried a fixed blade knife in appendix carry opposite my gun for obvious reasons. I know many others here, as well a many credible dudes outside the forum, carries a small fixed blade as well.

Lately, however, I have seen a few "experts" (Varg Freeborn most recently) decry the use of any knife for defensive encounters. Their reasons almost always boil down to two things:

1) Knives don't work as well as most think and it will take over 20 - 30 stabs for them to be effective and it will take to long for this to happen.

2) If you use a knife you will go to prison no matter what because people (the cops and jury especially) are conditioned to believe that knives are a tool of thugs and other evil men only.

Opinions?

Personally I mostly disagree with #1 but somewhat agree with #2. That said, if I deploy my knife its because I can't or won't use my gun due to various reasons. If you have training you likely understand why. If I have my knife ifts because im fighting for my life and I don't feel I have other options but to use my blade to create space. I feel that if the knife user knows what he is doing, this is very possible which is why I disagree with point one.

As for the second point, better alive in prison than dead in the ground.

Discuss.

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I’ve seen/treated a TON of stabbings. I once treated a guy who was stabbed 57 times. He continued to fight, and seriously injure/permanently disfigure the person with the knife. He stopped his attack once we rolled up, and died about 20min later.

My opinion, knives are good for creating space and as a last resort defensive weapon. He is correct that they do not work as well as many people think.


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I carry a very sturdy fixed blade, AIWB, because i need it for knife stuff (opening/breaking things). If I use it for defense, so be it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warped Mindless

As to your last point: after making my post I got curious and searched for news stories where someone used a knife in self defense. Took me all of 10 minutes to find multiple stories where many people, pretty much all seemingly untrained, used a pocket knife to fight off attackers. One case a woman used a pocket knife to fend off two rapist. Just something interesting...

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We've also discussed here and over at TPI, the potential for a different or increased psychological "stop" when using knives vs. guns. Virtually everyone knows what it feels like to get cut and how much it hurts. There seems to be less of a mental barrier for people to realize they are going to get hurt, badly, fighting someone with a knife. That's kind of nuanced, in that it could be the recognition of pain. Or it could also be the recognition that someone who is holding a knife, ready to fuck you up, has made a decision to do violence and isn't going to go down easily.

Regardless, I've seen some other anecdotal evidence of this.

One such example is in "Manchild in the Promise Land" by Claude Brown, which details his childhood in Harlem in the 1940s and '50s and discusses the startling normality of violence up to and including him being shot during a robbery gone wrong at 12 or 13 years old. And one thing that Brown talks about is how when there was a fight? Bat, board, knuckles, even guns didn't scare him, but getting stabbed did. Because people he knew, who got stabbed, often didn't come home again. He was afraid of knives and he'd find something else to do if a blade came out in a throw down. Similarly, "Fist Stick Knife Gun" by Geoffrey Canada, which is from his time in Harlem in the 1960s and '70s - demonstrates a similar psychology.

Remember, these are men who knew violence at an almost fundamental level. It was part of their everyday existence and yet a blade had a psychological effect on them that in some ways, defies logical explanation.

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Originally Posted by TCFD273

I’ve seen/treated a TON of stabbings. I once treated a guy who was stabbed 57 times. He continued to fight, and seriously injure/permanently disfigure the person with the knife. He stopped his attack once we rolled up, and died about 20min later.

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But the stabber lived and the stabbee did not?

ETA: I do want to add a quick distinction here.

There are two issues at hand.

1) The efficacy of a knife in dealing lethal damage.

2) The efficacy of a knife in ending a fight.

Those are separate, but correlated issues.

In the case of number 1, knives (and sharp stabbing instruments in general) are extremely effective at dealing lethal damage. So, for that matter are baseball bats, bricks, and rocks.

In the case of number 2, that's an interesting question. You might gain a slight edge in psychological stop vs. handgun, but in terms of rapidly stopping a fight or allowing you to egress from that fight? Tangling up with a knife at contact distance begins to limit your escape options and anyone who has committed to fighting someone with a knife, is committed to doing harm, period. Bear this in mind.

Damn my old mind...was it not here that someone like @BBI told of his talks with a serious trial attorney who told him he'd never seen a defensive knife use get spun into a prosecution? Was it a podcast? Fuck, it was great info, too.

Re: whether knives work: there is all kinds of anecdotal evidence on both sides of this issue. However, enough people who have been there/done that use them and teach their use so that their effectiveness cannot be readily dismissed. They can be carried legally, in some form, almost anywhere in the US. I know of no other option providing the same level of easy of carry and effectiveness for places where a gun is not a legal option.

Re: the legal aftermath: as with anything else, staying out of jail means 1) act reasonably, 2) be able to explain and demonstrate why your actions were reasonable, and 3) be prepared to deal with the likely ways in which whatever happened can be spun to make you look bad. The "demonstrate" part is critical to overcome whatever preconceived notions the judge or jury may have.

If I recall correctly, a big part of his argument is the likelihood of taking a plea due to the cost of a legal defense. If you are a member of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (and if you carry a gun, you should be), if your actions appear to be legal, and you were not carrying your defensive weapon illegally, they will provide a defense regardless of whether you used a gun or something else.