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Sal Picante
10-21-2013, 09:12 AM
Had a good run, finished 22nd overall, at 81%. Had to run my back up Beretta - it worked ok.

Eric Grauffel won. Ben Stoeger was 2nd (Ben's the new National Champ since Eric G is French) - both shot Tanfoglio Stock 2's. Sevigny finished 3rd with the FNS 5". Robbie was 4th shooting an XDM 5.25

Mr_White
10-21-2013, 10:01 AM
Looks like you did well. Good job!

jetfire
10-21-2013, 10:30 AM
I'm surprised Eric "only" won by 4ish percent.

Sal Picante
10-21-2013, 12:55 PM
It was a pretty solid 5% lead that Eric had... He was pretty consistent the entire match.

Interesting just picking off the list and what they used...

ERIC GRAUFFEL 100.000% (Tanfoglio Stock 2)
BEN STOEGER 94.731% (Tanfoglio Stock 2)
DAVE SEVIGNY 93.486% (FNS 5" 9MM)
ROBERT LEATHAM 91.546% (XDM 5.25)
SONNY MORTON 87.718% (CZ SP-01 Shadow)
MATTHEW MINK 87.647% (CZ SP-01 Shadow)
JJ RACAZA 87.590% (Caracal)
KALE GARRETSON 85.337% (CZ SP-01 Shadow)
SHANE COLEY 85.179% (?)
KC EUSEBIO 84.847% (Glock 34)
SHANNON SMITH 84.615% (?)
CHRIS TILLEY 84.199% (CZ SP-01 Shadow)
FRANK GARCIA 83.587% (Tanfoglio Stock 2)
PHIL STRADER 82.907% (Tanfoglio Stock 3)
MICHAEL SEEKLANDER 82.566% (? M&P or Glock)

Tirofijo2001
10-21-2013, 01:41 PM
Why did Bob Vogel not shoot in Production? I think he did shoot Limited.

Sal Picante
10-21-2013, 01:49 PM
Why did Bob Vogel not shoot in Production? I think he did shoot Limited.

I overheard, in passing, that he was on the road for more than a month and decided to head home...

YVK
10-21-2013, 03:45 PM
Strong work, well done.

jetfire
10-21-2013, 03:56 PM
Seen elsewhere: no American GM shot a "GM-level" score of Eric (95%) or better. Just an interesting note.

Tirofijo2001
10-21-2013, 05:22 PM
Seen elsewhere: no American GM shot a "GM-level" score of Eric (95%) or better. Just an interesting note.


At the French IPSC Championship, no European finished higher than 91% of Eric.

(At the European IPSC Handgun Championship, no European finished higher than 87% of Frank Garcia (USA). Eric didn't attend.)

PPGMD
10-21-2013, 06:38 PM
DAVE SEVIGNY 93.486% (FNS 5" 9MM)
So anyone yet find a place to buy one?

JJ RACAZA 87.590% (Caracal)
No recall for JJ?

nwhpfan
10-21-2013, 09:28 PM
Seen elsewhere: no American GM shot a "GM-level" score of Eric (95%) or better. Just an interesting note.

Of 18 stages, Eric G. won 8 of them; was 2nd or 3rd for 7, and his worst stage finish was 8th! Against the other best shooters in the world, to consistently beat Ben Stoeger, Dave S. Rob Leatham, etc. over 18s stages..is truly amazing.

GJM
10-21-2013, 10:00 PM
Had a good run, finished 22nd overall, at 81%. Had to run my back up Beretta - it worked ok.

Great finish. What happened to your primary Beretta?

Sparks2112
10-22-2013, 12:26 AM
I overheard, in passing, that he was on the road for more than a month and decided to head home...

Not to speak for Vogel, but that was my understanding as well.

Sal Picante
10-22-2013, 08:36 AM
Great finish. What happened to your primary Beretta?

Double action felt terrible after I replaced the trigger return spring. Took it apart, put the old spring back in, and it still felt bad. Need to take it apart and find out what was no bueno... Maybe just due for a solid cleaning...

Byron
10-22-2013, 10:05 AM
Interesting just picking off the list and what they used...
[snipped data from quote]


At the French IPSC Championship, no European finished higher than 91% of Eric.

(At the European IPSC Handgun Championship, no European finished higher than 87% of Frank Garcia (USA). Eric didn't attend.)

Would you guys say that this phenomenon is common? That is, the largest performance gap existing between 1st and 2nd place?


Looking at the data from above, but with a "difference" calc added:

Competitor___________________Score________________ _____Difference from next highest score
Eric Grauffel________________100.0%____________________ N/A
Ben Stoeger__________________94.73%___________________ _5.27%
Dave Sevigny_________________93.49%____________________ 1.25%
Robert Leatham_______________91.55%____________________1. 94%
Sonny Morton_________________87.72%____________________3 .83%
Matthew Mink_________________87.65%____________________0.0 7%
JJ Racaza____________________87.59%__________________ __0.06%
Kale Garretson_______________85.34%____________________ 2.25%
Shane Coley__________________85.18%____________________0 .16%
KC Eusebio___________________84.85%__________________ __0.33%
Shannon Smith________________84.62%____________________0.2 3%
Chris Tilley_________________84.20%____________________0 .42%
Frank Garcia_________________83.59%____________________0 .61%
Phil Strader_________________82.91%____________________ 0.68%
Michael Seeklander___________82.57%____________________0.3 4%
(That lines up on my desktop, but I'm sure it will look gross on some browsers/devices.)

Between these 15 competitors, the mean difference is 1.25%. Median difference is 0.51%

Would anyone be willing to give me a crash course in looking up / understanding USPSA match results?
I am not a USPSA member. Is the data available to me?

Slavex
10-22-2013, 11:29 AM
Eric shot the European Handgun Championships in Portugal last month and won. Which match are yourreferring to?

jetfire
10-22-2013, 11:59 AM
Would you guys say that this phenomenon is common? That is, the largest performance gap existing between 1st and 2nd place?


Looking at the data from above, but with a "difference" calc added:

Competitor___________________Score________________ _____Difference from next highest score
Eric Grauffel________________100.0%____________________ N/A
Ben Stoeger__________________94.73%___________________ _5.27%
Dave Sevigny_________________93.49%____________________ 1.25%
Robert Leatham_______________91.55%____________________1. 94%
Sonny Morton_________________87.72%____________________3 .83%
Matthew Mink_________________87.65%____________________0.0 7%
JJ Racaza____________________87.59%__________________ __0.06%
Kale Garretson_______________85.34%____________________ 2.25%
Shane Coley__________________85.18%____________________0 .16%
KC Eusebio___________________84.85%__________________ __0.33%
Shannon Smith________________84.62%____________________0.2 3%
Chris Tilley_________________84.20%____________________0 .42%
Frank Garcia_________________83.59%____________________0 .61%
Phil Strader_________________82.91%____________________ 0.68%
Michael Seeklander___________82.57%____________________0.3 4%
(That lines up on my desktop, but I'm sure it will look gross on some browsers/devices.)

Between these 15 competitors, the mean difference is 1.25%. Median difference is 0.51%

Would anyone be willing to give me a crash course in looking up / understanding USPSA match results?
I am not a USPSA member. Is the data available to me?

What's really interesting to me about that graph is it pretty accurately shows the "tiers" of USPSA production GMs. You have Eric at the top in Eric-Land, then the real top tier guys: Dave, Robbie, and Ben all pretty close. Then there's a big gap and you get the next level of GMs.

Very interesting stuff.

Sal Picante
10-22-2013, 12:00 PM
Would you guys say that this phenomenon is common? That is, the largest performance gap existing between 1st and 2nd place?


It really depends on who shows up to the matches...



Would anyone be willing to give me a crash course in looking up / understanding USPSA match results?
I am not a USPSA member. Is the data available to me?

Scoring works like this: Each "A" is worth 5 pts. B&C = 3 pts. D = 1 pts (Minor scoring)

Total Pts / Time = Hit Factor. Person with the highest HF wins the stage.
The %ages in stage scoring is next lower competitor's HF / winner's HF.

When looking at overall scores, stages have "match points". The winner is awarded 100% of the match points, while the other competitors are awarded the % of the match points. How many match points for a stage is based on the total points.

Example: El Presidente - turn, draw, shoot three targets twice, reload, and do it again - 12 shots, total possible points = 60. The stage then has 60 "match points".

I shoot El Presidente with all A's in 6 seconds. 60pts/6s = 10 Hit Factor.
You shoot El Presidente with all A's in 10 seconds = 60/10 = 6 Hit Factor.

Next, calculate the percent: 6/10 = 60%.

Next calculate the match points: I get 60 match points, you get 60pts * 60% = 36 match points.

Do this for all the stages and you get the overall scores...


Anything else you want to know, specifically?

Sal Picante
10-22-2013, 12:07 PM
What's really interesting to me about that graph is it pretty accurately shows the "tiers" of USPSA production GMs. You have Eric at the top in Eric-Land, then the real top tier guys: Dave, Robbie, and Ben all pretty close. Then there's a big gap and you get the next level of GMs.

Very interesting stuff.

I sort of agree with you - what I find more interesting, on the flip side, is how many guys came out to shoot that aren't primarily production shooters: JJ, Chris Tilley, Shane Coley, Shannon Smith, KC, etc. A lot of guys were able to come out and shoot production because they weren't shooting L10, Limited or Open.

jetfire
10-22-2013, 12:09 PM
I sort of agree with you - what I find more interesting, on the flip side, is how many guys came out to shoot that aren't primarily production shooters: JJ, Chris Tilley, Shane Coley, Shannon Smith, KC, etc. A lot of guys were able to come out and shoot production because they weren't shooting L10, Limited or Open.

A dedicated Prod nationals definitely freed up a lot of the top GMs in other divisions to come play. I noticed that guys who are normally "Open" GMs like Chris, Shane, and KC had a hard time staying with the big dogs.

JJ's been putting a lot of trigger time in his Caracal lately, and I'd imagine if he stuck with one gun and didn't have all that silly "real job" nonsense, he'd be able to move into the top five.

frozentundra
10-22-2013, 12:34 PM
What's really interesting to me about that graph is it pretty accurately shows the "tiers" of USPSA production GMs. You have Eric at the top in Eric-Land, then the real top tier guys: Dave, Robbie, and Ben all pretty close. Then there's a big gap and you get the next level of GMs.

Very interesting stuff.


Is it a reasonable assumption that Bob Vogel could have had a good chance of finishing top 5, with a possible shot at closing the gap to "Eric-Land" if he had been on top of his game?
I don't follow USPSA very close but from what I have seen on TV Vogel looks like a cyborg with a glock.

Byron
10-22-2013, 12:54 PM
Do this for all the stages and you get the overall scores...
Thank you! I appreciate the explanation, and the examples are very helpful.


Anything else you want to know, specifically?
I don't think so. I just went browsing around the USPSA results pages and think I can make sense of what I'm seeing.

Thanks again!

PPGMD
10-22-2013, 01:52 PM
Is it a reasonable assumption that Bob Vogel could have had a good chance of finishing top 5, with a possible shot at closing the gap to "Eric-Land" if he had been on top of his game?
I don't follow USPSA very close but from what I have seen on TV Vogel looks like a cyborg with a glock.

Bob and Dave are typically about the same skill level.

Tirofijo2001
10-22-2013, 03:58 PM
Is it a reasonable assumption that Bob Vogel could have had a good chance of finishing top 5, with a possible shot at closing the gap to "Eric-Land" if he had been on top of his game?
I don't follow USPSA very close but from what I have seen on TV Vogel looks like a cyborg with a glock.


In the top 5? Possibly. Vogel recently finished 5th in the Limited National Championship, a gnats hair behind Rob Leatham. Sevigny finished 2nd, but there wasn't much daylight between him and Vogel. Had Vogel finished just behind Leatham at the Production Nationals he would have been 5th.

Would Vogel have closed the 5% gap that was between Eric and Ben? No, not likely. He couldn't beat Leatham or Sevigny in Limited a few months ago (see above), so there's no reason to think he would have beaten them in Production. Vogel did beat Ben at the World Shoot in 2011 (in a close one, IIRC). I don't think Ben has been beaten since that World Shoot (except when his gun broke and not counting Eric's wins at the last two year's Production Nationals.) I don't know if Ben and Bob have gone head to head since the World Shoot, but there's no reason to think that Vogel is currently better than Ben, and certainly there is no reason to believe Vogel is significantly better.

Tirofijo2001
10-22-2013, 04:18 PM
Would you guys say that this phenomenon is common? That is, the largest performance gap existing between 1st and 2nd place?



No. Not common. Usually the National Championships are more competitive. At the Limited Nationals this year there were seven people within 5% of the winner. Eric won by a wide margin and it shows how good he is. Not just "Eric was the better man today" good, but rather "Eric and Ben could go head to head and Eric will win 9 out of 10 times (if not 10 out of 10). " That good.

Having said that, Sevigny won by 5% in 2010 (and beat Ben by 12%). Ben closed the gap the next year and won. I doubt that Ben has that much room for improvement these days.

Sal Picante
10-22-2013, 04:50 PM
Thanks again!


You're welcome!

Cheers!

Sal Picante
10-22-2013, 04:58 PM
I doubt that Ben has that much room for improvement these days.

I think you're wrong - he's dedicated full time and has material support from Eric.

Kinda like:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Leepo6q-xfw

Tirofijo2001
10-22-2013, 05:22 PM
I think you're wrong - he's dedicated full time and has material support from Eric.



Really? You think Ben will improve 12 percent on Sevigny in one year like he did from 2010 to 2011? (Yeah, that's how I wrote it and that's what I meant. Ben made the jump from middle tier GM in 2010 to top tier GM in 2011. He'll tell you that any improvements will be fewer and farther between and much harder to come by given the level he has reached.)

Heck, Ben didn't come any closer to beating Eric this year than he did last year, and lost some ground to the other Americans compared to 2011.

But maybe he had better competition this year. Last year the person finishing behind him was some A class shooter no one has heard of. This year Sevigny gave him all he could handle.

Sal Picante
10-22-2013, 06:33 PM
Really? You think Ben will improve 12 percent on Sevigny in one year like he did from 2010 to 2011?

Yes.


He'll tell you that any improvements will be fewer and farther between and much harder to come by given the level he has reached.)

I know.


Heck, Ben didn't come any closer to beating Eric this year than he did last year, and lost some ground to the other Americans compared to 2011.

He's spent 3 months with his new Tanfoglio. I think that may have had something to do with it.


But maybe he had better competition this year. Last year the person finishing behind him was some A class shooter no one has heard of. This year Sevigny gave him all he could handle.

I think so - everyone crawled out of the woodwork to shoot Production Nationals.

Tirofijo2001
10-22-2013, 06:58 PM
That's a bold prediction. We shall see.

Also I meant to write "lost ground to other Americans compared to 2012"

Sal Picante
10-23-2013, 08:38 AM
That's a bold prediction. We shall see.

Also I meant to write "lost ground to other Americans compared to 2012"

I figured it was either that or lost ground to Eric.

The reason why I think it can be done is a few fold:


Knowing Ben, he's a very motivated kitten.
Again, Eric is coaching Ben
Ben may have an ammo hookup to increase the volume of his shooting/practice
Ben is just adding time under his belt with the Unicorn (Stock 2)
It isn't how you practice, but what you practice. I think Ben is now really at a point to dissect IPSC and USPSA Nationals to see where he trailed Eric.

Slavex
10-23-2013, 09:30 PM
Ben is an incredibly talented shooter, so maybe in a year he'll catch Eric, I think he'll need to head overseas and hit major matches there to really keep the initiative though, and to keep shooting against him. Eric on the other hand has been getting better and better shooting Production to the point where it's hard to tell the difference in if he's shooting Open or Production. Eric is simply amazing, his raw talent has been honed to perfection really. Watching him shoot is watching near perfection. Its really hard to watch him and find fault with what he does.

ToddG
10-23-2013, 09:34 PM
Its really hard to watch him and find fault with what he does.


Speaks French.

Slavex
10-23-2013, 10:42 PM
Real French though, not Quebec French, totally different, even if it's still French

Sal Picante
10-24-2013, 08:55 AM
Eric is simply amazing, his raw talent has been honed to perfection really.

Well... I guess that sorta happens when you shoot >150,000 rounds a year...

Was surprised to find out that he'll hit Frostproof, FL a month before the World Shoot and cap 1,000 rds a day the entire month leading up to the match! :eek:

Also, was surprised to find out that he's shot a mix of optic and irons, almost daily, since he started - I think a lot of open/iron shooters fall into a "trap" and just accept one "way" vs another. (I mean, most of us have a real budgetary constraint...)

feudist
10-24-2013, 09:07 AM
Travis Tomasie opined a few years ago about the advantages of training with an optic even if you were a diehard iron sights shooter.

He believed the optic allowed you to find a higher "running gear" that you could then train for with irons.

Tirofijo2001
10-24-2013, 05:12 PM
Travis Tomasie opined a few years ago about the advantages of training with an optic even if you were a diehard iron sights shooter.

He believed the optic allowed you to find a higher "running gear" that you could then train for with irons.

Maybe, I wonder how much training in Open Travis thinks is required to get the benefit, since the guys at the top of both Production and Limited seem to be iron sight specialists.

I know Ben has shot very little with an Open gun. It's looks like Bob's Open competition is limited to a classifier match in '08 and again in '09 (though I suppose he could be practicing with an Open gun, though I imagine we'd have heard about it if he was.) Nils and Dave have few more Open classifiers on record, but I don't know how they train.

Eric has been doing this a lot longer than Ben, has more or less an unlimited supply of ammo, and is talented. I think that, more than being an Open shooter, is the key to his dominance.

ToddG
10-24-2013, 05:20 PM
It's looks like Bob's Open competition is limited to a classifier match in '08 and again in '09 (though I suppose he could be practicing with an Open gun, though I imagine we'd have heard about it if he was.)

Vogel's Open gun is an iron sighted G17 if I recall correctly.

Yes: See here (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/accomplishments/).

GJM
10-24-2013, 05:56 PM
Vogel's Open gun is an iron sighted G17 if I recall correctly.

Yes: See here (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/accomplishments/).

This is incredibly impressive.

Sal Picante
10-24-2013, 06:00 PM
I know Ben has shot very little with an Open gun.

Ben hasn't run much open...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjZTrgc4KNw
(changed to hot link... NSFW language ... ToddG)

That was a great day training... (some mild profanity...)


Nils and Dave have few more Open classifiers on record, but I don't know how they train.

Dave shot A5 in open.


Eric has been doing this a lot longer than Ben, has more or less an unlimited supply of ammo, and is talented. I think that, more than being an Open shooter, is the key to his dominance.

+1...

Slavex
10-24-2013, 07:40 PM
It's interesting to see comments that Eric is helping Ben train etc, I was under the impression that Eric is basically training Svetlana most of the time now.

lightning fast
10-24-2013, 07:57 PM
Vogel's Open gun is an iron sighted G17 if I recall correctly.

Yes: See here (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/accomplishments/).

I'm confused. That page says iron sights, and the "Weapons" page has this:

USPSA Open Class

Glock 17 KKM barrel; SJC Major Compensator; J-point/Doctor slide mounted optics; Dawson Ice Magwell; Taylor Freelance basepads; Safariland 014 Competition holster and Safariland mag pouches.

Or is the Accomplishments just referencing his initial classification in Open?

jetfire
10-25-2013, 09:08 AM
It's interesting to see comments that Eric is helping Ben train etc, I was under the impression that Eric is basically training Svetlana most of the time now.

I thought she hired Adam.

Tirofijo2001
10-25-2013, 10:34 AM
I'm confused. That page says iron sights, and the "Weapons" page has this:


Or is the Accomplishments just referencing his initial classification in Open?

No idea, but since I sort of brought it up I'll speculate.

USPSA records show the Bob has only 12 open classifier stages on record. Six shot the same day in 2008 and six shot the same day in 2009. No doubt these were special 'classifier' matches that clubs sometimes run to let people get a lot of classifier stages on record quickly and obtain a classification.

I think USPSA requires at least one classifier for each club level match (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and the overall results at big matches are often deemed to be a classifier themselves, which would suggest those two matches are the only time he's competed in Open (because otherwise he'd have more classifiers on record.)

In 2008 he didn't shoot well enough to be classified a GM. In 2009 he did. If he says he classified with a G17, then he must have been shooting a G17 that day in 2009. What he shot in 2008 or when he's playing around or practicing I wouldn't now. Maybe he has an Open gun to goof off or to practice with.

There's also the slight possibility that he was bumped to Open for those two matches due to a Production rules violation (holster too far forward? welcome to Open), though I doubt that's what happened.

That's all the thought I'll give to this subject.

Sal Picante
10-25-2013, 02:35 PM
I think USPSA requires at least one classifier for each club level match (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and the overall results at big matches are often deemed to be a classifier themselves, which would suggest those two matches are the only time he's competed in Open (because otherwise he'd have more classifiers on record.)


Just chiming in: you don't need to run a classifier at the club level each time... I think he just shot two classifier matches for the lulz

Urban_Redneck
10-30-2013, 07:48 AM
JJ RACAZA 87.590% (Caracal)
No recall for JJ?

FYI,

Only the compact models (C) have been fully recalled. The full size (F) pistols were recalled and replaced, last spring.