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View Full Version : Wearing a gun while being an RO



Slavex
10-18-2013, 04:52 AM
so an interesting question was raised on another forum about ROs wearing guns while they RO squads, mostly when they are part of a self ROing squad. Recently at a match on the dark continent an RO dropped their gun while running a competitor through the stage, grabbed the gun as it fell and then placed it on the ground, caught up to the shooter while another RO picked up the gun and safed while they were downrange. No obviously there were a bunch of problems with this situation. The gun coming out of the holster being the first one, the RO grabbing it in the air number 2, not screaming STOP and unloading the competitor, placing the gun on the ground, another person coming along and handling while they were down range. All of that is BAD. But given the number of such incidents that have occurred in IPSC (this was an IPSC event) and I'm told that this isn't the first time, the proposal to deal with the entire problem is to create a new rule. Namely, Whilst acting as an RO and running a competitor the RO shall not have a gun on. What do you gun crazed 'Mericans think of this? Can you come up with a better solution or do you think current rules in both USPSA and IPSC cover the incident well enough. Do you think that small self ROing squads will need to bag and unbag multiple times per stage just so an RO isn't wearing a gun?

Please discuss.

Chuck Haggard
10-18-2013, 04:59 AM
Why wasn't the RO in that case DQed and thrown out of the match?

Seriously, and perhaps suspended from the club?


The issue is one guy with a crappy holster.

Odin Bravo One
10-18-2013, 05:12 AM
The issue is one guy with a crappy holster.

Isn't that most IPSC holsters?

They are designed for speed, not retention. The concept of blazing and running and blazing and running in IPSC doesn't consider that the participants will doing said activities with a holstered pistol, thereby having rules (such as the 180, RO's on top of the shooter, etc) to keep the potential hazards mitigated. With the loose rules regarding holsters and level and effectiveness of retention, it seems prudent that one would disarm him/herself prior to running & not gunning.

Seems to me the issue is one guy with some shitty gunhandling/gun safety skills.

Chuck Haggard
10-18-2013, 05:29 AM
Yeah, that too.

I guess I was thinking maybe a guy shouldn't be wearing a holster that crappy, but now I realize that's just crazy thinking.

JAD
10-18-2013, 05:45 AM
Why yes, I would be happy to put away my unloaded, light-ball running match pistol for the day.

Why no, I would not prefer to go through that metal detector.

BLR
10-18-2013, 06:16 AM
It's the stupid people that prevent us from having nice things.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

ToddG
10-18-2013, 07:29 AM
I'm convinced that eventually, IPSC is going to outlaw guns entirely.

jetfire
10-18-2013, 08:43 AM
I'm convinced that eventually, IPSC is going to outlaw guns entirely.

They did just pass rules to sanction airsoft competition...

I've shot loads of club matches, and I've never seen an RO/SO dump their gun while chasing a shooter.

PPGMD
10-18-2013, 09:16 AM
Why yes, I would be happy to put away my unloaded, light-ball running match pistol for the day.

Why no, I would not prefer to go through that metal detector.

I've routinely seen match officals with hot guns (though rarely their competition guns) on the days they aren't shooting.

And those are just the visible guns. There are probably more 380s and 38s at matches then people want to acknowledge. And as an RO as long as they don't become visible I personally have no issue.

shane45
10-18-2013, 09:30 AM
Its been over 15 years since I shot IPSC but I remember some sort of test (jump test?) you had to do to show your holster would retain the pistol. Is that long gone?

1slow
10-18-2013, 10:00 AM
I seem to remember in the early days (1970s) that you had to be able to do a backward roll without loosing gun, magazines etc.... to have an IPSC legal holster.

NEPAKevin
10-18-2013, 10:45 AM
IIRC, you had the option of either removing the holster and mag holders and holding them up side down or doing a roll. Only ever recall seeing one guy do a roll and that was more of a "look at me" thing.

backtrail540
10-19-2013, 11:23 AM
It seems to me that if they aren't willing to dq themselves for the dropped gun in this case, then they won't follow any new rules that are put in place either. I personally have no problem running guys while wearing a gun, just accept the accountability if this happens and take the dq. When guys run race holsters, that is the risk they face. Ive seen guys forget to lock/unlock those things at various times and as long as they are willing to take responsibility for what happens to their gun then i'm fine with it.

Slavex
10-19-2013, 11:51 AM
According to IPSC rules, had he just let it fall and not handled it, all he should have done was yell stop and clear the range. Then another RO retrieve the gun, clear it, he re holster, and then get the shooter torreshoot the stage. Since he was not the competitor there is no penalty for the drop.
Most of the new race holsters are more secure than the average non race holster. The Bladetech Dropped Offset I run is loose enough that a gun can fall from it if the body motion is correct. Like jumping backwards off a set of stairs say (happened during a walk through last year). I've played with the tension on it, any tighter and I'm pulling my pants into my crotch and castration myself on the draw.

Odin Bravo One
10-19-2013, 01:57 PM
Most of the new race holsters are more secure than the average non race holster.

?!?!?!

Did you type that with a straight face?

Seriously.

joshs
10-19-2013, 02:34 PM
?!?!?!

Did you type that with a straight face?

Seriously.

Sean,

I'm guessing he is comparing a modern race holster with the lock engaged to kydex and injection molded open top holsters, which many competitors set way too loose because it is "faster."

Odin Bravo One
10-19-2013, 03:07 PM
Ok..........

guymontag
10-19-2013, 04:29 PM
Most of the new race holsters are more secure than the average non race holster.

Word. DAA BABY.

http://youtu.be/_I2DPWLo87A?t=1m9s

Slavex
10-20-2013, 01:19 AM
Sorry Sean, didn't mean to freak you out. Yeah the DAA and even my old Guga are solid, guns don't come out with the lock on. Compared to 99% of the holsters I see at the range, including a lot issue ones, they are stronger and more secure. With the lock off it's a different story. Bladetech DOH and other similar holsters are essentially just buckets for guns

David Armstrong
10-20-2013, 10:53 AM
I don't Ro any more as I can no longer compete, but when I was an RO I always bagged my gun while doing the RO gig. I look at it as an RO my first responsibility is running the shooter through the stage. That should take all my attention and thus the chance for mishap on my part (tripping, running into something, etc.) is enhanced. So for me bagging the gun was just a safety issue for me.

ST911
10-20-2013, 11:53 AM
Perhaps I'm underthinking it, but... If the RO is going to carry the gun, the carry method should be of sufficient ability to retain the gun through common physical tasks associated with the job. If it's not, the RO and gear are excluded until such time as it is. In the event of mishap, sanction proportionately for the level of oversight or incompetence demonstrated.

With the above, let the RO carry as they see fit.

Slavex
10-20-2013, 05:52 PM
if you look at both USPSA and IPSC matches of smaller size, you'll see tons of videos showing guys ROing while wearing their guns. It's the nature of the beast. Small self ROing squads travel through the stages. Bagging and unbagging guns as the RO is needed can add time. I'm not a fan of it, but it happens all the time, and without issue.

Odin Bravo One
10-20-2013, 06:01 PM
if you look at both USPSA and IPSC matches of smaller size, you'll see tons of videos showing guys ROing while wearing their guns. It's the nature of the beast. Small self ROing squads travel through the stages. Bagging and unbagging guns as the RO is needed can add time. I'm not a fan of it, but it happens all the time, and without issue.

Another shining example of why I don't care for "Competition".

People who are more concerned with saving time than safe handling of firearms are not who I want to be around.

So my question then becomes, if it is done "All the time, and without issue", what was the purpose of starting this thread? I'm not trying to be a dick, but there is obviously an issue.

Tamara
10-20-2013, 06:31 PM
What do you gun crazed 'Mericans think of this?

Personally? If your holster won't retain a gun while jogging around on a square range, then it's not really anything I'd call a "holster".

Any behavior that would be a DQ for the shooter should be a DQ for the dude chugging around behind him. Anybody without the mental horsepower to remember to activate the lock on their holster is not somebody I want running around near me with a hot gat in their sweaty little paw either.

Slavex
10-20-2013, 08:44 PM
There was a single incident recently that has led to this discussion elsewhere, and likely the creation of a rule set to prevent people from doing it again. Hence the post here. I wouldn't say they aren't doing bagging guns strictly to save time, but to also reduce unnecessary handling of the gun. Figure a squad of 6 people, you're going to need two RO minimum out of that group. That's two people need to find somewhere to bag and unbag their guns, safety areas if available, on the range itself if not. While safety trumps time, time considerations are part of the design of a match, which is why typically you see the self ROing squads. Once you have enough people split into morning and afternoon groups you can have dedicated ROs and range staff. Which of course brings up the question of the guys doing scoring, pasting and resetting steel. Should they not have guns on either? I don't know for certain, but I would expect that there have been instances of guns falling out of holsters during that stuff too. But obviously not enough to warrant discussion.
Tamara, any person who is not the shooter attempting the COF who drops a gun only faces a DQ in IPSC if they try to pick it up. They, by the rules, haven't done anything wrong. The area downrange of the muzzle is cleared, an RO picks it up and clears the gun, and gives it back to the shooter to holster. This happens occasionally, far more so than the incident above, when people catch guns on stuff back in the spectator area. I've seen jackets pull guns from holsters, people knock into each other and cause guns to fall, my own gun came out of my admittedly loose holster at the Nationals in 2012 when I jumped off a set of stairs onto the ground during my walkthrough. In all these instances so long as the shooter doesn't attempt to pick the gun up, nothing will happen. Same goes for the RO running the guy through the COF who dumps his own gun on the ground.
Now while some say this points to the ridiculousness of gun games, I don't see it that way at all. I've seen far more guns dropped on the ground at various LE training venues. When you consider I attend a lot more matches than I do LE training (as I am civilian) it really points to the great safety priority gun games do have. The incident that occurred had a lot go wrong, the instant the gun came out of the holster the RO should have stopped the shooter and then followed normal procedure. Had that been done, I doubt we would have even heard about it.

Odin Bravo One
10-20-2013, 09:23 PM
I am obviously missing the logic here.

I also miss the logic of many of the rules, conditions, etc. when it comes to safety and equipment in IPSC or IDPA.

Chris Rhines
10-20-2013, 09:55 PM
But given the number of such incidents that have occurred in IPSC (this was an IPSC event) and I'm told that this isn't the first time,...
Exactly how many incidents are we talking about? I've been shooting USPSA for a while, and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of dropped guns I've seen.


Namely, Whilst acting as an RO and running a competitor the RO shall not have a gun on. What do you gun crazed 'Mericans think of this?
This is silly.


Can you come up with a better solution or do you think current rules in both USPSA and IPSC cover the incident well enough.
I'm not as familiar with IPSC rules as I should be, but I think that the existing USPSA rules cover this contingency more than adequately. I'm just not convinced that this is a problem that I need to be concerned about.

Mr_White
10-23-2013, 10:54 AM
There are some things about USPSA that are alien to my mind and I dislike, but I tolerate them because I think the benefits of participation are worth it: cold range, holsters that don't retain guns, guns that are sketchy to have fall on the ground, pulling the trigger to 'verify' the gun is unloaded, etc.

cclaxton
10-23-2013, 11:07 AM
If the SO/RO is shooting the stage, then let the SO/RO shoot first, clear his gun, then set it on the Safe Table/Area while he is running the stage? Or, keep a small handgun bag closeby and reholster for the next stage?

Sometimes an SO is moving fast to keep up with the shooter....and is subject to more jostling.

If the SO is not shooting the stage, then be best to keep it stowed.

CC

ToddG
10-23-2013, 02:23 PM
This is getting way overcomplicated.

If your holster is not secure enough for the present activity then bag your gun, get a more secure holster, or adjust your activity. If you can't do that and ditch a gun, it's on you.

IPSC sometimes gives me the impression that Sarah Brady is on their Board of Directors: EVERYONE needs to do x-y-z because SOMEONE was irresponsible once! Punish wrongdoers, don't regulate every aspect of everyone else's life.

joshs
10-23-2013, 02:31 PM
IPSC sometimes gives me the impression that Sarah Brady is on their Board of Directors: EVERYONE needs to do x-y-z because SOMEONE was irresponsible once! Punish wrongdoers, don't regulate every aspect of everyone else's life.

This was my first thought as well. I usually help RO at Level 1 matches, but I would stop if I were forced to bag my gun to RO.

cclaxton
10-23-2013, 03:53 PM
I doubt Josh's or Todd's guns will fall out...they are holstered in a safe place. Does it make it harder to run holstered like that?
CC

joshs
10-23-2013, 04:12 PM
Does it make it harder to run holstered like that?

No.

Slavex
10-23-2013, 08:56 PM
Todd, you are correct.

This issue of course doesn't really affect the US in any meaningful way as you guys are USPSA more than IPSC, however it does affect other countries in interesting ways. In some countries you can't leave a gun unattended even if it's bagged or cased, it must be stored and secured or some such nonsense. As well you need to have two people minimum which means someone will have to un-gun then re-gun at some point. Time time time. It just seems simpler to punish those who screw up then try and enforce a new rule that really addresses a non issue.

rob_s
10-28-2013, 04:49 AM
So here we have year another thread about competition wherein a bunch of posters don't shoot competition and/or openly deride it in the thread?

Yeah, that's productive. :rolleyes:

This should be easy. There is no reason for a preventative rule/procedure. A punishment rule like "gun goes on ground, shooter goes home" applied to shooters and ROs alike is all you need.

JV_
10-28-2013, 05:15 AM
So here we have year another thread about competition wherein a bunch of posters don't shoot competition and/or openly deride it in the thread?

Yeah, that's productive. :rolleyes:Perhaps next time you could leave out your unhelpful/negative comments.

rob_s
10-28-2013, 06:33 AM
Perhaps next time you could leave out your unhelpful/negative comments.

You mean like all the non-competition shooters sniping from the sidelines did?

Got it.

MDS
10-29-2013, 08:13 AM
You mean like all the non-competition shooters sniping from the sidelines did?

Got it.

I don't eat babies, rob banks, vote democrat or shoot ipsc - discussing why I don't is rational criticism, not "sniping from the sidelines." There are tons of issues with most competition venues that keep me away, but I dabbled now and then because my only other practice was at a square range. Now that I can just head into the hills and som at multiple targets and etc, I have less reason to compete than ever. Namely: hanging out with friends and making noise together.

One thing that didn't really concern me was the safety of any match I've been to. None of them were perfect by any means, but I felt much safer than, say, a typical practice day at the square range.

Chuck Haggard
10-29-2013, 12:32 PM
I shoot both USPSA and IDPA, and three gun, just for the record.

NEPAKevin
10-29-2013, 03:32 PM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-M-PkEF3kSAY/UnAa0sxo5dI/AAAAAAAAARk/wOX4yendgKo/w576-h411-no/Bitchy+Little+Girls.jpg

I had a prop pull my gun from my holster as I moved around it. DQed myself per IDPA rules.

Lomshek
10-31-2013, 11:50 PM
Another shining example of why I don't care for "Competition".

People who are more concerned with saving time than safe handling of firearms are not who I want to be around.


I'd put folks who feel the need to bag their guns when not shooting as a bigger safety hazard than those who have holsters that don't drop guns and instead leave them holstered. IPSC may be different than USPSA/IDPA because of the European influence as far as who's professional enough (don't know, never done it) to overlook things like grabbing and leaving dropped guns or clearing them behind shooters. Locally that would get called out.

I'm not interested in the race side of competition and just shoot & RO local matches. We have plenty of gamers and racers but no one plays fast and loose with safety. Can't imagine wearing a holster that will lose my gun from anything short of an acrobatics routine.
I want to use gear that at least comes close to anything I might carry.

A few of us routinely swap the duties of RO and shooter during the matches. Per the rules if (between shoots) a shooter's cold gun hits the ground everything stops and an RO picks it up (locally we'll find out why it hit the ground and what has to change to fix it). If it happens again (hasn't happened the first time with us) the shooter will be invited to get better gear before they shoot again.



I also miss the logic of many of the rules, conditions, etc. when it comes to safety and equipment in IPSC or IDPA.

Mainly to blunt the impact of the "my finger is my safety" crowd (they either adjust attitude quickly or go elsewhere).
Cold range (DQ offense)- In case some doofus' holster drops his 1911 with a 2 lb trigger job the gun won't go off.

No gun handling except in safe area and no ammo in safe area(DQ offense)- No "Lemme see that new blaster of yours" or "Blam, blam" while practicing draws.


IPSC sometimes gives me the impression that Sarah Brady is on their Board of Directors: EVERYONE needs to do x-y-z because SOMEONE was irresponsible once! Punish wrongdoers, don't regulate every aspect of everyone else's life.

LOL - New proposed IPSC rule. No live ammo or guns. You will make "pew-pew" noises when engaging targets with finger guns. Scoring will be decided by a panel of international judges on style.