Walther PPQ

[gtmtnbiker98]

Well, had the chance to molest a Walther PPQ 9mm this morning. Being a long time P30 owner, I must say, it DOES NOT FEEL NOR MIMIC THE P30 in grip or feel. The grip does feel pretty good, again, coming from a long time P30 shooter but the comparison between the two stops at polymer.

I am contemplating the purchase since I can get it for $540. After a few minutes of molesting the pistol, I will agree, the bore axis is very low (over rated I know, just an observation). As for the reset, it is advertised as being ridiculously short (1/10 of an inch) but in all honesty, it didn't feel any shorter than a P99 AS or a Glock in terms of reset. When dry firing, the trigger was okay (estimated ~5-6 LB range) and was rather smooth, nothing that I would consider "gritty." Overall impression, the P99AS has a better trigger. I owned a P99 for a few years and IMO, the P99 has to have the BEST trigger on a factory weapon in current production.

If there is any negative aspects of the weapon, IMO, it would be the magazine well (or lack thereof). The mag well is very narrow and of course, I must consider this since I play the gun games. There is very little, if any, bevel in the mag well and would be pretty unforgiving if one hadn't practiced mag changes RELIGIOUSLY. Under stress, I can easily see myself gouging polymer instead of reloading the weapon. Something for me to consider.

I wish that I could have shot the pistol, but that wasn't an option, unless purchased.

[Pistol Shooter]

Fine report gtmtnbiker98. Thanks for sharing. :)

I'm a bit surprised Walther didn't address the lack of bevel in the mag well issue.

[JodyH]

The mag well is nothing a few swipes of a jewelers can't fix.

double-Tapatalk

[gtmtnbiker98]

The mag well is nothing a few swipes of a jewelers can't fix.

double-TapatalkTrue. It's just the required bravery required to make it happen is the issue.

I will probably pass on this one, waiting to see if HK "ever" produces a striker fired variant of the P30. I guess I'm just an HK Snob.

[JodyH]

I just finished dremeling a new rail groove into my p2000.
A little filing doesn't scare me at all.

double-Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

I just looked at one and was favorably impressed. The trigger was very smooth with a ridiculously short reset. Pointed very well.

[Kyle Reese]

I wouldn't turn down some trigger time with one....

[gtmtnbiker98]

My main concerns aside from those already mentioned is the fact that I DO NOT want to be a Beta Tester on a new platform. I was considering running one in an an AFHF class next month, but I don't need any help at sucking on the FAST (I do good enough on my own).

[JodyH]

The PPQ is just a P99 with a hybrid AS, QA trigger.
I'd have no problem running one hard straight out of the box.
Walther isn't known for turning out bad service pistols (their .22's and PPK's are a different story).

[JV_]

I wouldn't turn down some trigger time with one....Yea, but you're also interested in a Caracal.

[F-Trooper05]

I didn't even know these things were available yet. Good report.

[Kyle Reese]

Yea, but you're also interested in a Caracal.

I'll take a Walther over a Caracal. :o

[TGS]

The grip is a little different than the P30.

Personally, having felt the PPQ's grip the other week, I like it better. The P30 feels amazing, but if I grip it naturally where my hand wants to fall from influence by the finger grooves and whatnot, it ends up being lower than where it should be. I picked up the PPQ and my hand instantly fell into what I would consider the perfect grip. GT noted that it's very different....while it may be, it's still excellent and I think HK will have stiff competition against the P30 if they do their marketing work.

I was also impressed with the trigger. If a "gadget" were to come out for the PPQ, I have no doubt I'd buy one. It felt awesome! Unfortunately I'm not comfortable carrying something without a hammer/gadget/way of ensuring safety while using the AIWB position, so as much as I want one I can't justify buying it just because it's cool and will stick to my P2000 for the time being.

[jslaker]

I'll take a Walther over a Caracal. :o

What exactly is wrong with the Caracal other than the goofy sights on the more compact offerings?

[LittleLebowski]

What exactly is wrong with the Caracal other than the goofy sights on the more compact offerings?

Interesting pedigree, bad reports on other sites.

[Comedian]

The grip is a little different than the P30.

Personally, having felt the PPQ's grip the other week, I like it better. The P30 feels amazing, but if I grip it naturally where my hand wants to fall from influence by the finger grooves and whatnot, it ends up being lower than where it should be. I picked up the PPQ and my hand instantly fell into what I would consider the perfect grip. GT noted that it's very different....while it may be, it's still excellent and I think HK will have stiff competition against the P30 if they do their marketing work.

I was also impressed with the trigger. If a "gadget" were to come out for the PPQ, I have no doubt I'd buy one. It felt awesome! Unfortunately I'm not comfortable carrying something without a hammer/gadget/way of ensuring safety while using the AIWB position, so as much as I want one I can't justify buying it just because it's cool and will stick to my P2000 for the time being.

How grippy is the PPQ? Does the "stippling," lock your hand in well?

[TGS]

How grippy is the PPQ? Does the "stippling," lock your hand in well?

It seemed to. It wasn't anything overly aggressive like Simonich Gunner grips but felt grippy and comfortable.

[YVK]

So, at the time when P-F.com staff members are trying to fix one of a few remaining shortcomings of Gen 3 Glocks (:D sorry, Gen 4 guys, I just had to...) by inventing a tactile striker-feedbacking (yeah, I made a word) and controlling gadget, Walther removes the same feature from their newest offering.

Loss of interest right there.

[LittleLebowski]

How grippy is the PPQ? Does the "stippling," lock your hand in well?

It's good but not as aggressive as the P30. Pointed just as well if not better than the P30 for me.

[LittleLebowski]

So, at the time when P-F.com staff members are trying to fix one of a few remaining shortcomings of Gen 3 Glocks (:D sorry, Gen 4 guys, I just had to...) by inventing a tactile striker-feedbacking (yeah, I made a word) and controlling gadget, Walther removes the same feature from their newest offering.

Loss of interest right there.

Indeed disappointing but right now, I think the PPQ has lots of potential. Pricing with some dealers is right at or even below $600.

[TGS]

So, at the time when P-F.com staff members are trying to fix one of a few remaining shortcomings of Gen 3 Glocks (:D sorry, Gen 4 guys, I just had to...) by inventing a tactile striker-feedbacking (yeah, I made a word) and controlling gadget, Walther removes the same feature from their newest offering.

Loss of interest right there.

AFAIK the P99 has a cocked striker indicator. It has nothing to do with trigger movement and serves a totally different function and purpose than the gadget, correct?

[YVK]

P99 does, but PPQ doesn't. My limited experience with P99 and PPS lead me to believe that user can feel striker being cocked inadvertently (during holstering, for example) and prevent an ND by not allowing striker to cock fully. Am I not correct?

[JodyH]

AFAIK the P99 has a cocked striker indicator. It has nothing to do with trigger movement and serves a totally different function and purpose than the gadget, correct?
Kind of correct.
The indicator is actually the end of the striker and will move rearward and protrude more from the slide plate hole as the trigger is pressed.
This allows you to do the same thing as the gadget, which is have a tactile sensation of trigger movement when re-holstering by placing a thumb over the indicator.

[JDM]

This is not the same as what the gadget does.

Also, one can only feel the "striker indicator" on the P99 when the trigger is almost fully to the rear, and ready to release the sear. Not much comfort there. That said, it IS better than nothing...even if it isn't the gadget.

[gtmtnbiker98]

How grippy is the PPQ? Does the "stippling," lock your hand in well?IMO, no.

[LittleLebowski]

In my experience with the Gadget, I could not make the weapon fire with my thumb on the Gadget. Perhaps if I really white knuckled it......

Anyway, let's get back on track. The PPQ is very tempting in the gun shop. I will be anxiously awaiting range reports though I do not plan to switch platforms anytime soon.

[JodyH]

Considering the PPQ is an evolution of the P99 with a hybrid AS/QA trigger it should be a solid pistol.
I'd pick one up if I wasn't already so invested in the H&K platform.
I already have a dozen or so 15 and 16 round P99 magazines (supposedly a floorplate change is all that's needed for them to work in a PPQ).
Holster and sights are going to be even more scarce than what's available for the P30... and that's already pretty darn slim pickings.
Just FYI: The P99 does fit my Fricke Archangel, Blackhawk CQC and Kramer #1.5 that were molded for a P2000, so if the PPQ maintains the P99 profile it may work in holsters designed for the P2000/P30.

[GJM]

I am down in lower 48, and got a chance to handle one in a shop yesterday. I am usually a sucker for anything new, but this one didn't do anything for me. I didn't like the position of the magazine release or how it felt in my hands. Didn't feel like it offered anything over a P30 or Glock, and having gone through the HK maturation process of waiting on magazines, sights, variants and holsters, not interested in repeating that again on something that isn't light years better. Of course if other early adopters determine it is even light months, if not years better, I won't hesitate to change my opinion. :)

[Kyle Reese]

I'm totally OK with Walther, and really liked the P99's in 9mm that I owned back in the day. I'll be following the PPQ closely.

[WDW]

Just ordered one in 9mm. It should be here Tuesday. I have 1,000rds and some dot torture targets waiting for it :D

[JHC]

GREAT! This will be interesting.

[YVK]

I've handled one today. Overall, it felt well in my hands. The mag release felt better than I remember on any Walther I tried. My prior experience was that they need a metric ton of pressure to release the mag; this one was just right. I hope they reconsider exposed striker option in the future; I wonder if slide backplates are interchangeable with P99 or PPS.
What concerned me was that trigger felt too light for my comfort. This was after a range session with Glock 19, stock trigger setup, approximate pull weight of over 6 lbs; PPQ felt under 4.5 subjectively. Anybody tested one with a Lyman scale?

[VolGrad]

I had a chance to handle one today. I was in my LGS and one of the staff asked me what I thought about it.

First impressions;

It appeared to be a "poor man's P30" .... until I heard it was going to sell for about $650. OUCH. The "poor man" comment was just that it didn't quite seem as well made as a P30 overall. Can't pinpoint it, just didn't look/feel quite as well.

It pointed well.

The grip felt really good BUT wasn't textured aggressive enough IMO. The pattern looks like one of those old redneck DIY texture painting techniques. Does anyone remember people painting patterns on their wall with a feather duster?

It seemed to have a high bore axis FWIW.

The trigger was surprisingly nice. It wasn't too long, wasn't too spongy, had a nice clean break, and a short VERY positive reset.

In summary .... I would be interested in shooting one. I am not interested in purchasing one. I think they would do better if they were priced a bit less ... more in line with GLOCK or M&P.

[Kyle Reese]

Anyone making holsters for it yet?

[WDW]

Anyone making holsters for it yet?
Define holsters. Fobus makes one of their outstanding paddle holsters:rolleyes: and Galco makes a leather OWB thumb break and open top. The Galco looks alright but isn't for carry, not for me anyways.

[Comedian]

I would be willing to bet, that holsters for the P99, will fit the PPQ.

[WDW]

I would be willing to bet, that holsters for the P99, will fit the PPQ.
From what I've gathered over on waltherforum.com, they do, sort of, some better than others. That is of little concern to me though, as I am buds with a holster maker and will just have him make me whatever I want. Also on a positive note, the night sights from the P99 series of guns work on the PPQ. I'm ordering a set of Trijicons to throw on it.

[JV_]

Fobus makes one of their outstanding paddle holsters:rolleyesI wouldn't use a fobus holster with an airsoft gun.

[ToddG]

(PPQ threads merged)

[WDW]

We've all been thrown for a loop! Apparently, the PPQ has been in existence for sometime now as the P99 RAD. It was developed for use in the Polish Army and the PPQ is a renamig to allow importation into the U.S. It doesn't sway my interest, but it is interesting.

[Kyle Reese]

Interesting. I know Radom has been manufacturing the P99 for some time, but just thought it was a clone of the German P99 AS.

Stupid question: Is the PPQ manufactured in Germany or Poland?

[WDW]

Interesting. I know Radom has been manufacturing the P99 for some time, but just thought it was a clone of the German P99 AS.

Stupid question: Is the PPQ manufactured in Germany or Poland?

Apparently, the RAD was built in Germany and assembled in Poland, but not marked anywhere on the gun to show that. The PPQ is one hundred percent German though.
The top is a RAD, the bottom is a PPQ. See the similarity?
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/RAD.jpg
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/PPQ.jpg

[Kyle Reese]

Holy rollmarks, Batman.

[WDW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfh4Mhp-a6U

[WDW]

Here is a PPQ in action...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nVdnUcu5o&feature=player_embedded

[JV_]

It seems to have a more consistent ejection pattern when compared to Gen4 17/19s ... I can appreciate that.

[Prdator]

So is anyone making good sights for this thing??

[WDW]

So is anyone making good sights for this thing??
The P99 sights are interchangeable on the PPQ. I know Trijicon, Meprolight, and Walther all make Night sights and standard Steel Sights for it.

[WDW]

I actually handled a PPQ today:cool: The trigger is amazing. It is crisp and hovers right at 5lbs if not a little less. The reset is distinct and super short. The gun feels like a glove in the hand. The trigger is also a bit wider than the Glock which is nice. The fit and finish was excellent (though that's not too impressive on a polymer gun). If you are currently using the Glock platform, I would suggest looking into one, especially if you like P30 controls and grip but want a striker fired gun. Hopefully I will have mine by Tuesday with pics and a range report.:D

[Comedian]

I actually handled a PPQ today:cool: The trigger is amazing. It is crisp and hovers right at 5lbs if not a little less. The reset is distinct and super short. The gun feels like a glove in the hand. The trigger is also a bit wider than the Glock which is nice. The fit and finish was excellent (though that's not too impressive on a polymer gun). If you are currently using the Glock platform, I would suggest looking into one, especially if you like P30 controls and grip but want a striker fired gun. Hopefully I will have mine by Tuesday with pics and a range report.:D

Sounds about right, to me. I will have a PPQ in my greedy little hands soon! Im hoping it proves to be more accurate, than my G19.

[MD7305]

My LGS had a 9mm and 40 PPQ in stock today. When I initially saw photos of the PPQ I though it looked cheap but in person I was suprised. I can see some of cosmetic similarities between it and the P30 but they are very different. The PPQ points well and I REALLY like the trigger. The pull feels like a standard Glock 5.5 pull but smoother and broke very cleanly. The reset was short and positive. I have always liked the Glock trigger but I truely think the PPQ trigger feels better. Fit and finish are great. I've seen in other threads were folks mention that the PPQ can use P99 mags, well the 9mm PPQ I handled had magazines marked "P99" so I'd say its safe to say they use the same mags. I was impressed by the PPQ. I've never had a thing for Walther pistols but I really liked the PPQ. I hope to try one on the range in the future but I don't think I'll give up my P30v2 for one. This LGS shop was selling the PPQ for $650, I can't justify one at that price, maybe $550 and I would consider it a bit more seriously.

[WDW]

My LGS had a 9mm and 40 PPQ in stock today. When I initially saw photos of the PPQ I though it looked cheap but in person I was suprised. I can see some of cosmetic similarities between it and the P30 but they are very different. The PPQ points well and I REALLY like the trigger. The pull feels like a standard Glock 5.5 pull but smoother and broke very cleanly. The reset was short and positive. I have always liked the Glock trigger but I truely think the PPQ trigger feels better. Fit and finish are great. I've seen in other threads were folks mention that the PPQ can use P99 mags, well the 9mm PPQ I handled had magazines marked "P99" so I'd say its safe to say they use the same mags. I was impressed by the PPQ. I've never had a thing for Walther pistols but I really liked the PPQ. I hope to try one on the range in the future but I don't think I'll give up my P30v2 for one. This LGS shop was selling the PPQ for $650, I can't justify one at that price, maybe $550 and I would consider it a bit more seriously.
I'll have mine tommorrow and I'm gonna run a few hundred through it at some Dot Torture targets. The PPQ can use P99 mags, but only the newer ones. The older ones don't have the relief cut in the front of the feed lip and can damage the feed ramp. Budsgunshop.com has them for $599 shipped (no tax). The trigger pull should be more in the 5lb. range.

[JohnN]

Guess I am puzzled by all the folks who are jumping on the bandwagon with the Walther. Seems like many likened it to the P99 which I was under the impression never really caught on with the performance crowd. Apparently the P30 has run its course and now the PPQ comes along, we are a fickle bunch.

Sounds like this trigger may be even more touchy for those of us running AIWB unless the "Gadget" will work with this platform. Chances are, good sights will not be available for some time if ever.

[LittleLebowski]

I believe P99 sights will work.

[WDW]

I got the PPQ Thurs and will shoot it Sat. I definitely would not recommend this gun for AIWB. I am no expert by any means, but this trigger is very touchy, and very light. Mine is exactly 5 lbs and that .5lbs feels alot different than my Glock which is just under 6. Several times while drawing, pressing out, and dry firing, I pulled the trigger early. I am very impressed with the gun overall though. Also, for anyone who cares, the PPQ fits perfectly in a Glock 21 holster:confused::confused:

[JodyH]

Guess I am puzzled by all the folks who are jumping on the bandwagon with the Walther. Seems like many likened it to the P99 which I was under the impression never really caught on with the performance crowd. Apparently the P30 has run its course and now the PPQ comes along, we are a fickle bunch.

Sounds like this trigger may be even more touchy for those of us running AIWB unless the "Gadget" will work with this platform. Chances are, good sights will not be available for some time if ever.
The P99 was an excellent platform.
I used one hard back in 2000, it performed flawlessly.
I've never had faster split times than those I had with the P99.
Excellent pistol.
I probably wouldn't carry the new PPQ AIWB due to it's trigger, but that's just me.
As to sights, the Walther selection is the exact same as the H&K P30 selection... sparse.

[fuse]

Fondled the PPQ today. My god that is a light trigger.

The pre non-ny1 trigger spring, getting into AIWB version of myself would have probably been wooed by it.

[Comedian]

After shooting a Walther PPQ 9mm, i wish Walther would make one that doesn't kick like a mule. Felt like i was shooting a 40.

[Kyle Reese]

After shooting a Walther PPQ 9mm, i wish Walther would make one that doesn't kick like a mule. Felt like i was shooting a 40.

Seriously?

[Comedian]

Seriously?

It felt close to a 40. I shot it back to back with my Gen3 G19 and the G19 was much softer shooting. The PPQ has the most kick of any 9mm pistol ive ever fired. The PPQ was more accurate though. Sorry for thread drift.

[JV_]

Sorry for thread drift.Fixed

[Comedian]

Fixed
Thanks.

[Comedian]

Would an aftermarket steel guide rod, help to mitigate some of the PPQ's recoil?

[WDW]

Would an aftermarket steel guide rod, help to mitigate some of the PPQ's recoil?

No, it might actually make it worse. The polymer flexes and absorbs recoil, steel is rigid and transfers recoil to the softest medium. Also, the actual guide rod material has no effect on recoil management. I do not see where you are feeling this recoil. I have put around 400rds through my PPQ and it feels like any other polymer 9mm (G19, M&P, etc.) Furthermore, putting an aftermarket, steel guiderod in a gun designed with a plastic one, is usually a surefire way to damage things or cause reliability problems.

[Comedian]

No, it might actually make it worse. The polymer flexes and absorbs recoil, steel is rigid and transfers recoil to the softest medium. Also, the actual guide rod material has no effect on recoil management. I do not see where you are feeling this recoil. I have put around 400rds through my PPQ and it feels like any other polymer 9mm (G19, M&P, etc.) Furthermore, putting an aftermarket, steel guiderod in a gun designed with a plastic one, is usually a surefire way to damage things or cause reliability problems.

Good points. I was looking at the Sprinco website. They have dual springs, like the gen 4 Glocks. They are supposed to tame the recoil impulse. Didn't work out too well with the new Glocks. (Reliability wise) Did you shoot your PPQ, back to back with a Glock or M&P? My G19 was much softer shooting than the PPQ. But i might not have noticed, if i didn't try the Glock, right after the Walther.

[Comedian]

Does anyone know what it is about the Walther P99/PPQ, that makes it "kick" harder than other polymer pistols? Its kind of baffling to me.

[WDW]

Does anyone know what it is about the Walther P99/PPQ, that makes it "kick" harder than other polymer pistols? Its kind of baffling to me.
The bore axis may be different enough for you notice or percieve more recoil. Also, the backstrap difference may be causing the gun to fit in your hand differently and impact a different place on your palm.

[Comedian]

The bore axis may be different enough for you notice or percieve more recoil. Also, the backstrap difference may be causing the gun to fit in your hand differently and impact a different place on your palm.

My P30 didn't have as much felt recoil, and its a very similar pistol, structurally. The P30 is a bit heavier than the PPQ though.

[JV_]

My P30 didn't have as much felt recoil, and its a very similar pistol, structurally. The P30 is a bit heavier than the PPQ though.

The P30 also has a buffer on the guide rod assembly.

[jslaker]

The P30 also has a buffer on the guide rod assembly.

I've always wanted to try removing that buffer ring from a USPc/P2000/P30/HK45 to see how much difference it actually makes.

[SteveB]

I now have 400 rounds of Fed 124 and 147 grain ball through my new PPQ. I have to say I don't notice any difference at all in perceived recoil from my other 9mm pistols. The only issue I've had so far is, since I've been shooting so much with M&P's lately, I have to work hard on reloading the PPQ due to the mag release difference. The mag releases are thinner and longer than those of the P30. I did notice when first shooting the PPQ with 115's, the brass kept hitting my hat brim. Annoying, but this doesn't seem to happen much with the heavier bullets; possibly this was a break-in issue. Anyway, I can't agree with any of the internet reports regarding muzzle flip or magazine insertion issues. The PPQ shoots real well, is comfortable, fits in P30 holsters. The OAL is similar to the G19; the grip is longer than the G19, but shorter than the P30. (I'd post a photo if I could figure out how to get it done). My trigger weighs 4.75 lbs and is smooth, real short with a very positive reset; like a very good Glock trigger. The stock sights are plastic and not so good. Unlike the P99, which came with multiple front sights, the PPQ has just one front sight and an adjustable rear sight. Trijicon, Meprolight and Hi-Viz make sights for the P99 which will fit the PPQ. I tried some FAST drills, and, while I'm much more consistent with the M&P9, I'm almost as fast with the PPQ. Right now i'd say it's a keeper.

[beltjones]

No, it might actually make it worse. The polymer flexes and absorbs recoil, steel is rigid and transfers recoil to the softest medium. Also, the actual guide rod material has no effect on recoil management. I do not see where you are feeling this recoil. I have put around 400rds through my PPQ and it feels like any other polymer 9mm (G19, M&P, etc.) Furthermore, putting an aftermarket, steel guiderod in a gun designed with a plastic one, is usually a surefire way to damage things or cause reliability problems.

I totally disagree with almost all of this.

To the gent with the recoil issues, you might try going to a lighter recoil spring.

[TGS]

I totally disagree with almost all of this.



Any reason why?

[beltjones]

Any reason why?

Sure. The frame flexes under recoil, not necessarily the guide rod. And the frame doesn't flex all that much even if you watch in super slow motion. The "dust cover" of some polymer framed guns flips around a little (see .40 Glocks for example), but again that shouldn't affect felt recoil.

And the frame isn't the primary "shock absorber" of the gun anyway. If it were no one would be able to shoot steel-framed pistols.

I would also question the source data that says putting a steel guide rod in a polymer gun (or one that ships with a polymer guide rod) will cause damage to the gun or reliability issues.

I believe him when he says his PPQ feels like his G19 or his M&P.

In my experience, a couple of things make a big difference in felt recoil: The load used, and the recoil-control technique of the shooter. Grip texture, weight of the gun, the springing of the gun, the balance, the bore axis, etc all make a difference, but they are slight in comparison to the load and the shooter.

Oh yeah, the geometry of the back strap makes a pretty big difference. a wide back strap is much more pleasant to shoot than a narrow back strap.

Finally, let's look at the real shock absorber in the gun, and the potential benefits of using a steel guide rod.

The main shock absorber in the gun is the recoil spring. In my experience, most guns ship from the factory way over-sprung, and a heavy recoil spring tends to result in more muzzle flip. Take a Glock 17 and replace the factory 17 lb spring with a 13 lb spring, and provided the shooter is skilled it will be almost like putting a compensator on the gun because it will shoot so much flatter.

The benefit of a steel guide rod is it adds a few grams of mass toward the muzzle end, which should also aid in decreasing muzzle flip a little bit. For even more weight up front a lot of people like to put a tungsten guide rod in their guns.

Anyway, there are a lot of things that affect felt recoil, but I've never heard of a steel guide rod somehow making felt recoil worse because it doesn't flex.

[WDW]

I totally disagree with almost all of this.

To the gent with the recoil issues, you might try going to a lighter recoil spring.

How is a lighter recoil spring going to REDUCE recoil and muzzle flip, that makes no sense at all. Putting a steel rod in a gun designed with a plastic one, can in some cases, not all, gouge the polymer frame and damage the locking lugs on the barrel if proper recesses have not been cut in for the rod to rest. See how many serious shooters on here change out a factory rod for some aftermarket piece that promotes recoil management. It isusually not a good idea to replace critical internals with aftermarket parts that are not OEM. There are a few exceptions with the APEX Tactical and Vickers parts, but for the most part, a quality firearms is designed the way it is for a reason. At the end of the day, we are talking about a full size 9mm. Recoil should not even be a discussion. If this were a Walther .50AE, maybe, but come on, it's a 9mm.

[beltjones]

How is a lighter recoil spring going to REDUCE recoil and muzzle flip, that makes no sense at all. Putting a steel rod in a gun designed with a plastic one, can in some cases, not all, gouge the polymer frame and damage the locking lugs on the barrel if proper recesses have not been cut in for the rod to rest. See how many serious shooters on here change out a factory rod for some aftermarket piece that promotes recoil management. It isusually not a good idea to replace critical internals with aftermarket parts that are not OEM. There are a few exceptions with the APEX Tactical and Vickers parts, but for the most part, a quality firearms is designed the way it is for a reason. At the end of the day, we are talking about a full size 9mm. Recoil should not even be a discussion. If this were a Walther .50AE, maybe, but come on, it's a 9mm.

I agree that recoil in virtually any full size 9mm should not be an issue. Provided there isn't something horribly wrong with the gun design (like a backstrap shaped like a "V" or something), it's the shooter, not the gun.

People change out factory rods for aftermarket parts all the time. Plenty of factories choose parts based on cost, not performance. Glock uses both a polymer guide rod and plastic sights. I think we all know they didn't choose the plastic sights for performance reasons, so it was most likely a cost-driven decision. The polymer guide rod decision was probably similar considering virtually everyone who shoots a Glock in high-level competition chooses to swap to a steel or tungsten guide rod.

[Comedian]

The strange thing is that the PPQ was getting tighter groups across the board, for myself and the owner, than my Glock 19. Even though the G19, was a much softer shooting pistol.

[ToddG]

How is a lighter recoil spring going to REDUCE recoil and muzzle flip, that makes no sense at all.

It absolutely does. Just ask any serious competitive shooter, he's probably got the lightest spring in his gun that still provides guaranteed reliability.

The heavier the spring, the more it impedes the movement of the slide. So when the gun goes off, you can either have the slide move freely (using up some of the recoil energy) or you can have it move slowly (delivering the recoil energy straight into your hand). The slower delivery of energy over time feels better, a push rather than a snap, but it translates into both more muzzle movement and more dwell.

Having said that, I don't muck with recoil springs. I prefer factory guide rods and factory weight springs.

[WDW]

It absolutely does. Just ask any serious competitive shooter, he's probably got the lightest spring in his gun that still provides guaranteed reliability.

The heavier the spring, the more it impedes the movement of the slide. So when the gun goes off, you can either have the slide move freely (using up some of the recoil energy) or you can have it move slowly (delivering the recoil energy straight into your hand). The slower delivery of energy over time feels better, a push rather than a snap, but it translates into both more muzzle movement and more dwell.

Having said that, I don't muck with recoil springs. I prefer factory guide rods and factory weight springs.
Dang you and your scientific explanations. That makes sense though when put like that. So what about all those people who said the Gen4 Glocks "shot softer" because of the heavier, dual recoil springs? Are they imagining that or is it a classic case of the placebo effect.

[Comedian]

Dang you and your scientific explanations. That makes sense though when put like that. So what about all those people who said the Gen4 Glocks "shot softer" because of the heavier, dual recoil springs? Are they imagining that or is it a classic case of the placebo effect.

Maybe it wasn't "softer", just different. My gen 4 G19 did seem to have softer recoil than my gen 3.

[ToddG]

So what about all those people who said the Gen4 Glocks "shot softer" because of the heavier, dual recoil springs? Are they imagining that or is it a classic case of the placebo effect.

Personally I do think there is some placebo effect, so to speak. But the main factor is that, as I said above, a heavier recoil spring slows the recoil down so it feels like there is less recoil.

There are basically two things at work here, both of which we normally think of as "recoil" when shooting a handgun:

The force with which the gun pushes into the hand.
The distance the front sight moves off target.


#1 is what most people care about, but #2 is what really affects your shooting ability. A heavier spring will make #1 feel better at the cost of worse #2... and vice versa.

[nar472]

Kinda like the difference between a rifle with a hard plastic recoil "pad" and the same rifle with a soft rubber recoil pad the force is the same but it slows down the recoil so that it "feels" different.

[Lon]

Got to finger one of these today at the shop.. I liked it ALOT. Wish I could shoot one.

[jslaker]

Handled one at the LGS a bit ago. Interesting design, but I don't think it's for me. Didn't care for the odd shape of the grip side panels. The light, rolling trigger break I could see being nice. I dislike Walther's take on paddle releases (and I love the paddle release on HKs). I also foresee the slide release being as bad as SIGs are for me in terms of failure to lock back. I couldn't find a grip position where my thumb didn't end up sitting right on top of it.

[JHC]

So what about all those people who said the Gen4 Glocks "shot softer" because of the heavier, dual recoil springs? Are they imagining that or is it a classic case of the placebo effect.

A skosh off topic but I'm one of the Gen 4 early adopters that were impressed at how flat the guns handled vs older Gen 3s and Gen 2s I have (relatively slicker grips). I thought/assumed it was the new RSA but after shooting a few thousand rounds threw new RTF2 Gen 3s since then, my new assumption is the higher traction grip treatments on the Gen 4 and RTF2 might have had more to do with my perception of flat handling in recoil than anything else; since I'm not sure I can discern much diff between the RTF2 and the Gen 4.

[LittleLebowski]

Dang you and your scientific explanations. That makes sense though when put like that. So what about all those people who said the Gen4 Glocks "shot softer" because of the heavier, dual recoil springs? Are they imagining that or is it a classic case of the placebo effect.

I am one of those people. I think it is readily noticeable on my early non counterbored Gen4 G17 as did everyone who shot it.

[ToddG]

Heavier recoil springs, all else being equal, actually tend to inhibit rather than enhance shooting speed. While a number of folks I trust report real benefits in the .40-cal gen4 guns over the (historically very flippy) gen3 forties, in 9mm I don't see a difference.

[Spr1]

A skosh off topic but I'm one of the Gen 4 early adopters that were impressed at how flat the guns handled vs older Gen 3s and Gen 2s I have (relatively slicker grips). I thought/assumed it was the new RSA but after shooting a few thousand rounds threw new RTF2 Gen 3s since then, my new assumption is the higher traction grip treatments on the Gen 4 and RTF2 might have had more to do with my perception of flat handling in recoil than anything else; since I'm not sure I can discern much diff between the RTF2 and the Gen 4.

This was my opinion as well, as I could not detect much difference between the Gen 4 and my skateboard tape enhanced Gen 3's. So I saw the heavier recoil spring as all downside.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Just to follow-up on this thread, I finally bought one of these and since Wednesday, ran 700-rounds through a 9mm sample. The first outing I did pretty well on a Dot Torture at between 5-6 yards. Didn't measure the distance, only stepped off. Managed a 49/50. Did several walk back drills on 2" dots, starting at ~3 yards and making it back to 15 paces several times. I did the walk back drill freestyle, SHO and WHO. I worked heavily on learning the trigger system since I have been shooting TDA the last few years. My main focus was familiarization and vetting the weapon.

The weather was crappy during both outings and haven't ran the clock, yet. Weather permitting, I will in the next few weeks. This is a different animal that is for sure. I have a class coming up and plan on running it through the class and a few matches. The PPQ isn't replacing anything for now, but if it holds up like I hope, it "may" find itself fulfilling a more serious roll outside of range use.

[F-Trooper05]

Definitely look forward to hearing back from you after your class. What holster/sights will you be using?

[JodyH]

I've always wanted to try removing that buffer ring from a USPc/P2000/P30/HK45 to see how much difference it actually makes.
The buffer doesn't really mitigate recoil, the hard plastic doesn't compress.
The H&K buffer is to prevent over compression of the recoil spring and help keep the recoil spring from kinking or binding at full compression.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Definitely look forward to hearing back from you after your class. What holster/sights will you be using?Getting ready to order a High Noon holster, as for sights, staying stock for now.

[GJM]

You are killing us ... we want to know how the splits are (or feel) compared to what you are shooting now? :)

[gtmtnbiker98]

You are killing us ... we want to know how the splits are (or feel) compared to what you are shooting now? :)
It feels like a P30 with a trigger on par with or better than an Apex equipped M&P. As for my performance, I haven't ran it on a clock but for static shooting, it is easier to run than my P30. I can get away with more trigger press slop.