Reports of Texas DPS going to 9mm.

[JBP55]

There are reports of Texas DPS switching from .357 Sig to 9mm. Anyone have all the facts relative to this? It seems as if quite a few LEA's are going 9mm or looking at switching to 9mm this year.

[awmp]

Are they staying the Sigs?

Very surprised to hear they are leaving their .357 Sig Caliber, where did you hear this from?


There are reports of Texas DPS switching from .357 Sig to 9mm. Anyone have all the facts relative to this? It seems as if quite a few LEA's are going 9mm or looking at switching to 9mm this year.

[JBP55]

Are they staying the Sigs?

Very surprised to hear they are leaving their .357 Sig Caliber, where did you hear this from?

Copy of post on another forum.




posted October 10, 2013 11:01 PM
I was in Austin for Sig Armorer re-certification and learned DPS is in the process of switching from 357sig to 9mm. The plan currently is for all new recruits to be issued 9mm Sig 226s or 9mm Smith and Wesson M&P's their choice starting next year. Current Troopers in the field will have the choice of switching over to the 9mm or keeping their current P226 or P229 in 357. The 9mm load will either be Gold Dot 147gr or Winchester Bonded 147gr. The reasons given were ammo costs, ease in training non shooters given lighter recoil of the 9mm and better performance of current 9mm loads. As for me I haven't decided whether I will make the switch or not. But I am betting all Troopers will be forced over to the 9mm the way we were all forced to give up our P220s or P226 9mms in the late 1990s for a P226 in 357 after DPS got tired of having to stock three different calibers.

[HCM]

If true, I'm surprised at the caliber switch though I was aware the DPS had tested the M&P in 357 with favorable results. The Texas state fiscal year starts September 1so this would be the right time of year for such an announcement.

[Chuck Haggard]

Several highway patrols have had issues with the various .357Sig service pistols.

While I would be surprised to see this happen, it would be a smart move on their part.

[TR675]

The troopers I knew at my old job c. six years ago were quite happy with the .357 SIG, specifically citing its superior penetration into vehicles. All normal disclaimers about hearsay apply.

[Chuck Haggard]

We've been really happy at my job with the ability of the 124gr +P Gold Dot to get into cars when needed.

[TR675]

I'm just passing on what I thought was an interested tidbit. Remember this was six years ago and my buddies' information was probably based on TX DPS's initial testing of the .357 SIG, which was longer ago than that. One of them talked about a test of various rounds into a semi's cab which only the .357 passed. The newer 9mm loadings may do as well, or being easier to shoot may be more important these days, or it's cheaper, or...etc.

[Chuck Haggard]

Shooting actual cars in testing and not doing some serious looking at what the bullets hit through various parts of the car, like mechanisms inside the doors, etc., can easily lead one to make false conclusions.

For a test to be completely valid one would need the same make/model/year cars and hit them at the same angle and point of impact with each of the rounds being tested. I know of no one who has done this.

Just shooting up cars to see what generally happens is really educational, but hard conclusions are often wrong in my experience.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I'm just passing on what I thought was an interested tidbit. Remember this was six years ago and my buddies' information was probably based on TX DPS's initial testing of the .357 SIG, which was longer ago than that. One of them talked about a test of various rounds into a semi's cab which only the .357 passed. The newer 9mm loadings may do as well, or being easier to shoot may be more important these days, or it's cheaper, or...etc.

During the transition period, Mas Ayoob wrote about a shooting incident where an older trooper with a P220 .45 and a new guy with a new .357 engaged a guy in a semi, with the .357 rounds penetrating the cab and ending the encounter. I don't recall hearing of any testing against semi cab bodies.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Several highway patrols have had issues with the various .357Sig service pistols.

While I would be surprised to see this happen, it would be a smart move on their part.What kind of issues? Didn't North Carolina also change, recently?

[Chuck Haggard]

During the transition period, Mas Ayoob wrote about a shooting incident where an older trooper with a P220 .45 and a new guy with a new .357 engaged a guy in a semi, with the .357 rounds penetrating the cab and ending the encounter. I don't recall hearing of any testing against semi cab bodies.

I heard about that OIS from several sources. That the rookie tagged the bad guy with the .357 suddenly made it all magical for some folks.

[Chuck Haggard]

What kind of issues? Didn't North Carolina also change, recently?

Parts breaking, guns having reliability issues, etc.

[TR675]

During the transition period, Mas Ayoob wrote about a shooting incident where an older trooper with a P220 .45 and a new guy with a new .357 engaged a guy in a semi, with the .357 rounds penetrating the cab and ending the encounter. I don't recall hearing of any testing against semi cab bodies.

That may have been why he was talking about. I have no vested interest in any caliber wars in any direction and was just passing along an anecdote for what it was worth, which I acknowledged at the outset was not much.

[ToddG]

While I was at SIG, Texas DPS was always one of the shining stars in the customer pantheon. They shot a lot of people and kept really good records. Individual spectacular incidents notwithstanding, they were firing fewer rounds per OIS to end fights with the 357 than they did with either their previous 9mm or .45 guns.

I'm not aware of any spectacular failure of the 357 in DPS hands.

However:


someone at Texas DPS clearly has an interest in getting M&Ps into the hands of their LEOs
the M&P357 has proven to have similar durability and reliability issues as most non-SIG 357 pistols
the cost of 357 SIG ammunition continues to climb at a much greater rate than more common calibers; fewer agencies use it each year which means there's less demand which means costs climb which mean fewer agencies use it... and so on and so on


If someone told me that #3 was the sole and entire reason for the switch, I'd believe it. Other big agencies are considering the same thing presently even though they've been incredibly happy with the cartridge's performance in actual shootings.

Even though it's not what I carry myself, I think you'd be hard pressed to criticize any agency for deciding upon 124gr +p Gold Dot as duty ammunition. Its track record with NYPD alone should be enough to make folks realize it works very well under a wide array of shooting conditions.

[ffhounddog]

I have never had a problem shooting a car with a 9mm pistol but that was in Iraq. With Bonded ammo the ammo should be similar and depending on the round they were using.

I hope they stick with their Sig P226 because of what people have said about the 9mm M&Ps.

[jlw]

I'm hearing scuttlebutt that the Georgia DPS considering dropping .45 GAP and going to 9mm. I also very recently heard similar that a federal agency was considering dropping .40SW in favor of 9mm.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm hearing scuttlebutt that the Georgia DPS considering dropping .45 GAP and going to 9mm.

Same sized gun, almost twice as much ammo on board, less recoil, ammo half the price...... Why wouldn't they?

[ToddG]

I'm hearing scuttlebutt that the Georgia DPS considering dropping .45 GAP and going to 9mm.

That would more than make up for Haraise not wearing a watch. Well, almost...

[jlw]

Same sized gun, almost twice as much ammo on board, less recoil, ammo half the price...... Why wouldn't they?

Because it would negatively impact my source of GAP ammo...

[JBP55]

I'm hearing scuttlebutt that the Georgia DPS considering dropping .45 GAP and going to 9mm. I also very recently heard similar that a federal agency was considering dropping .40SW in favor of 9mm.


And many LEA's follow what that Federal Agency does relative to firearms.

[Chuck Haggard]

And many LEA's follow what that Federal Agency does relative to firearms.

Lots of them. The .40S&W took off with LE agencies why?

[ToddG]

The .40S&W took off with LE agencies why?

Because of gun company salesmen.

[Chuck Haggard]

Because of gun company salesmen.

Wouldn't have sold if the FBI hadn't set the example.

A lot of Chiefs look to the FBI for what to do, the NA has a huge influence on them after they attend. I think it's the chip implants.

[ffhounddog]

I Know my wife likes her duty load more now than she did before. 165 grain gold dot seems to be decent man stopper through car windows.

[HCM]

I also very recently heard similar that a federal agency was considering dropping .40SW in favor of 9mm.

F-B-I ( insert Hannibal Lechter voice )

[HCM]

I Know my wife likes her duty load more now than she did before. 165 grain gold dot seems to be decent man stopper through car windows.

If it is coming off the FBI contract, it is my understanding it is loaded 100fps below its commercial equivalent. Still works well though.

[Chuck Haggard]

If it is coming off the FBI contract, it is my understanding it is loaded 100fps below its commercial equivalent. Still works well though.

If being run through a G22 the lighter loaded ammo is a very good thing.

[JBP55]

Wouldn't have sold if the FBI hadn't set the example.

A lot of Chiefs look to the FBI for what to do, the NA has a huge influence on them after they attend. I think it's the chip implants.


What he said, and that NA Brick on the Chief's wall says it all.

[ToddG]

Wouldn't have sold if the FBI hadn't set the example.

I disagree. The .40 was already selling to agencies -- including some big agencies -- for seven years before the FBI adopted it. I'm sure you remember at the time how many people joked that the FBI developed the spec (10mm Lite) but was too stubborn to accept the cartridge that came about as a result. INS and Border Patrol adopted the .40 two years earlier in a substantially larger contract. Their interest in the cartridge came in large part because of the success it had already proved in other LE agencies. And of course, the first LE customer to use .40 S&W guns was CHP... CHP literally adopted the .40 before guns were available in .40. :cool:

I'm not discounting the impact the FBI's selection had on LE sales, but the momentum was already huge by the time the Bureau decided to go forty. Glock and other gun companies began capitalizing on the AWB in '95 by swapping out used 9mm guns (with their precious, precious transferable high capacity magazines) for .40 S&W guns. It was a very simple script for the sales rep: "We'll give you brand new, more powerful guns in trade for your old beat up wimply 9mm, plus a 1:1 trade of all your magazines because we love you that much!" Then the gun company turned around and sold the used 9mm gun for a small mint because it came with a used standard capacity magazine. This kept going on almost until the day the AWB sunset.

In the immortal words of one of our community's most respected heroes:

http://www.gunshowbooks.com/1448C-URL.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

Yeah, so was I. The conversations we had at various ranges and trainings were a bit different. This was well before the AWB hit, but I get that the magazine thing helped sell "upgrades".

[ToddG]

This was well before the AWB hit, but I get that the magazine thing helped sell "upgrades".

I'm confused on the timeline we're talking about, then.

The guns in .40 S&W began production in 1990, the same year California Highway Patrol adopted the 4006. By '93 quite a few state agencies (and I'm sure plenty of municipal departments & SOs) had already switched. In late '94 the AWB went into effect. The big push to "upgrade" departments to .40 began in early '95. The Bureau adopted the .40 in 1997.

The fact that the Bureau is now considering a switch back to 9mm is pretty amazing considering the history. They were pretty late adopters of the .40 but may be one of the first big agencies to ditch it.

[Chuck Haggard]

The wound ballistic testing of the .40, by the FBI, proving the concept as equal to the mid range 10mm, happened almost as soon as the .40 hit the market.

One example of the FBI influence; My agency adopted the 9mm when transitioning from wheelguns starting about 1989, we went with the 147gr as a duty load immediately, only because the FBI was putting out info that this was the best possible choice.
There was talk of us going to 10mms, and shortly afterwards to the .40 since it basically equaled the 10mm and was available in the 4006 (we were carrying the 5906 at the time).

[ToddG]

Got it. I thought you meant the Bureau's adoption rather than testing...

[Chuck Haggard]

Got it. I thought you meant the Bureau's adoption rather than testing...

No, I meant their influence in general, but yeah, the testing started the ball rolling. If the 10mm was the ultimate duty round, and the .40 was equal to it, and the .45 was too big, and the 9mm sucked because Miami.....


The very first thing I got hit with when I rolled into the station to tell the boss we had serious issues with our G22s was "The FBI issues Glock 22s and they aren't having any problems...", making the whole thing my fault.

[ToddG]

The very first thing I got hit with when I rolled into the station to tell the boss we had serious issues with our G22s was "The FBI issues Glock 22s and they aren't having any problems..."

I hope he makes it back to Earth before the Stargate closes...

[Chuck Haggard]

I hope he makes it back to Earth before the Stargate closes...

That mess was a real lesson in human denial and some other crazy BS.

[jlw]

The .40SW wouldn't be on the market if it wasn't for the FBI's response to the Miami Shoutout.

If the FBI switches to 9mm, the trend will be other agencies following with their next firearms purchases.

[LSP972]

My agency adopted the 9mm when transitioning from wheelguns starting about 1989, we went with the 147gr as a duty load immediately, only because the FBI was putting out info that this was the best possible choice.


Ditto us. We started off with the Winchester QSM (Q4217) loading, then moved to Hydra-Shoks. We had excellent results with both on meat; not so hot on vehicles.

Interesting re your satisfaction with the 124gr +P HST on cars.

According to ATK, that bullet is the LEAST likely of the various HST projectiles to stay together when transiting barriers, auto safety glass in particular, because of the relatively short bearing surface (which translates to a commensurately less area the core and jacket have to "grip" each other).

We're issuing 180gr .40 HST now, but thankfully have hit a dry spell in regards to OIS. Ditto the local SO, which also issues that round. We at the lab are waiting to see some "meat bullets" for examination.

The local PD issues 180gr and 147gr Gold Dots, and have had very good success with those on meat. In fact, the last two 9mm Gold Dots that came out of misbehaving citizens could have been used for advertising photgraphs to show classic expansion. Barrier penetration has been so-so. But if I couldn't get HST for my personal use, Gold Dots would be my second choice.

.

[Rich]

Shooting actual cars in testing and not doing some serious looking at what the bullets hit through various parts of the car, like mechanisms inside the doors, etc., can easily lead one to make false conclusions.

For a test to be completely valid one would need the same make/model/year cars and hit them at the same angle and point of impact with each of the rounds being tested. I know of no one who has done this.

Just shooting up cars to see what generally happens is really educational, but hard conclusions are often wrong in my experience.

excellent point

[Rich]

I use ranger 180 gr in my P229 for SD.

If everything goes well I be going 9mm (P30) as well.

What 9mm loads actually pass all of FBI barrier testing!

I assume Bonded Ranger 147gr

Would be neat if the Doc would highlight which loads on his list. Because some don't do well on AG!

[Chuck Haggard]

Ditto us. We started off with the Winchester QSM (Q4217) loading, then moved to Hydra-Shoks. We had excellent results with both on meat; not so hot on vehicles.

Interesting re your satisfaction with the 124gr +P HST on cars.

The local PD issues 180gr and 147gr Gold Dots, and have had very good success with those on meat. In fact, the last two 9mm Gold Dots that came out of misbehaving citizens could have been used for advertising photgraphs to show classic expansion. Barrier penetration has been so-so. But if I couldn't get HST for my personal use, Gold Dots would be my second choice.

.

We have been using the 124gr +P Gold Dot, ever since it was invented, I'm pretty sure we were the first LE agency to adopt that round. I know we were well ahead of the NYPD in carrying it.

Ditto on your observations on bullet performance. Almost all of ours look exactly like the bullets recovered from the heavy clothing event on the Speer poster, except for the ones going through glass or auto bodies, those are never pretty.


We did not have the same experience with the Hydrashock, found that to be a really poor duty load in 9mm, both the 147 and the 124gr. We had multiple bullets fail to expand, in other cases they over expanded and fragmented, this led to shallow penetration and failing to get into the vitals.


My friends down the road an hour issue the 180gr Gold Dot, that has proven to be a superb duty round as well.

[Chuck Haggard]

I use ranger 180 gr in my P229 for SD.

If everything goes well I be going 9mm (P30) as well.

What 9mm loads actually pass all of FBI barrier testing!

I assume Bonded Ranger 147gr

Would be neat if the Doc would highlight which loads on his list. Because some don't do well on AG!

All of the loads on Docs list are there because they have been tested via the FBI protocol and passed. Some perhaps a little better than others, but they all work.


That Winchester Bonded load is very good BTW, in all of the events.

[John Hearne]

Shooting actual cars in testing and not doing some serious looking at what the bullets hit through various parts of the car, like mechanisms inside the doors, etc., can easily lead one to make false conclusions.

One of the more useful demonstrations I've seen in a class was during a Scottie Reitz course. We shot different caliplbers into a car door in vertical strings. Caliber did not matter in any way but what the rounds encountered did. If the reinforcement bar was hit, the round stopped. If a motor was hit then the round stopped.

Reitz has a lot of experience shooting into and around cars. He advised that only two things work well on cars - 12 gauge slugs and 308's. He did advise that they were seeing rounds strike car door components at less than full-on. This led to the unobstructed portion of the bullet continuing into the vehicle. He related that 45's had a big advantage here as half of a 45 is still a 115 grain projectile and they had seen significant wounds from these fragments.

[Chuck Haggard]

In shooting up cars I often note the opposite at times, that the faster bullets get through the sheet metal when the slower bullets do not.

On sheet metal the DPX hits above it's weight class as it were, shoots through heavier sheet metal that stops lead core bullets.

And yes, even supposedly legendary cover penetrating bullet like 7.62x39 will fail to get through a car door if the motors and such are hit along the way.


In high school I was blessed to have access to a junk yard out in the county away from town where my friend's dad didn't care if we shot up the cars that they were going to crush. I got to shoot up a lot on cars back then. Since I've gotten to shoot up a few more from the police auction yard, or cop cars we were going to scrap.

[jlw]

I've been to several Hornady ammo demos, and they also came to our place to do one. We got a car from one of the junkyards for testing purposes.

The Critical Duty 135 grain +P consistently out performed every other round through barriers. The Federal HST was next best.

At the FBI class I recently attended, I provided some Critical Duty to go up against some Hydrashok ammo, the CD whipped it pretty good.

[Chuck Haggard]

The 9mm Hydrashock is crappy ammo, IMHO.

Looking at the numbers I'd worry a bit about the Critical Duty for urban LE use. Our Gold Dots tend to exit, but not dangerously so. They tend to exit and then drop to the ground or get caught up in the bad guy's clothing.

They used to give performance similar to the CD and back then they would exit from a solid torso hit with enough velocity to be dangerous.

Example is where a bad guy was hit on a dope raid, solid shot through the chest and scapula, exited the bad guy, the house he was in and ended up half a block away in another house. Fortunate no one else was in the way.

[jlw]

Looking at the numbers I'd worry a bit about the Critical Duty for urban LE use.

If I ever again find myself working an jurisdiction where the people outnumber the trees or cows I will know that my career has taken a horrible turn... :cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

If I ever again find myself working an jurisdiction where the people outnumber the trees or cows I will know that my career has taken a horrible turn... :cool:

I would absolutely love getting to work someplace where the trees and cows outnumber the people.

[Mr_White]

Even though it's not what I carry myself, I think you'd be hard pressed to criticize any agency for deciding upon 124gr +p Gold Dot as duty ammunition. Its track record with NYPD alone should be enough to make folks realize it works very well under a wide array of shooting conditions.

Do you just like the 124gr + p HST better for its larger expansion? Or another reason? Are there other loads you prefer to the 124gr + p Gold Dot?

Just curios. I think those are both great rounds.

[Chuck Whitlock]

If FBI adopts 9mm across the board, one wonders what the other Fed agencies who buy their .40 off the FBI contract will do? I know a DOI agency who just got their personnel Gen4 .40s.

[JBP55]

If FBI adopts 9mm across the board, one wonders what the other Fed agencies who buy their .40 off the FBI contract will do? I know a DOI agency who just got their personnel Gen4 .40s.


Isn't the current contract a 5 year contract and good for another 4 years? They will have ample time to make a pistol/ammunition change if necessary.

[ToddG]

Do you just like the 124gr + p HST better for its larger expansion? Or another reason? Are there other loads you prefer to the 124gr + p Gold Dot?

On paper, yeah, the HST gets a little bigger and cuts a little sharper and theoretically is probably 0.00001% more deadly against flying alien robot zomg!bies. In reality the Gold Dot is so universally well respected and proven that it's really, really hard to justify anything else. Except my price on the Gold Dot is about 27% higher.

I still have a secret love for 9BPLE, too, but I know if I started using it Doc would disown me. And by "disown" I mean hunt me down and do Evil Dentist things.


If FBI adopts 9mm across the board, one wonders what the other Fed agencies who buy their .40 off the FBI contract will do? I know a DOI agency who just got their personnel Gen4 .40s.

The contract continues to exist even if FBI stops using it, and presumably one of them will pick up the slack if FBI chooses not to re-let the contract in the future. I'd be surprised if FBI recalled existing .40's (they didn't do that with the 9mm or 10mm guns until those guns' service lives were essentially at an ed) so the Bureau's need for .40 ammo will probably be around for a long time. ATF and ICE also have .40-cal ammo contracts.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Isn't the current contract a 5 year contract and good for another 4 years? They will have ample time to make a pistol/ammunition change if necessary.



The contract continues to exist even if FBI stops using it, and presumably one of them will pick up the slack if FBI chooses not to re-let the contract in the future. I'd be surprised if FBI recalled existing .40's (they didn't do that with the 9mm or 10mm guns until those guns' service lives were essentially at an ed) so the Bureau's need for .40 ammo will probably be around for a long time. ATF and ICE also have .40-cal ammo contracts.

Good points. I was musing before thinking.

[Chuck Haggard]

The FBI currently has duty ammo and guns out in 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp, so a switch across the board for field agents to all 9mm isn't a tremendous change really.

[Rich]

All of the loads on Docs list are there because they have been tested via the FBI protocol and passed. Some perhaps a little better than others, but they all work.


That Winchester Bonded load is very good BTW, in all of the events.

are you positive all passed the 12inch auto glass?

From atk website and Winchester some of the loads didn't pass the AG test
Like win ranger T 9mm 127+P+ I think it was around 9inches

[Rich]

In shooting up cars I often note the opposite at times, that the faster bullets get through the sheet metal when the slower bullets do not.

On sheet metal the DPX hits above it's weight class as it were, shoots through heavier sheet metal that stops lead core bullets.

And yes, even supposedly legendary cover penetrating bullet like 7.62x39 will fail to get through a car door if the motors and such are hit along the way.


In high school I was blessed to have access to a junk yard out in the county away from town where my friend's dad didn't care if we shot up the cars that they were going to crush. I got to shoot up a lot on cars back then. Since I've gotten to shoot up a few more from the police auction yard, or cop cars we were going to scrap.

speaking of sheet metal the Federal EFMJ expanding ball ammo expands on that test. And I think its the only one that does

BTW I lived in the country most of my life and had a range and have shot junk cars and trucks. At one time I thought the 5.56 could penetrate way more than any handgun could.

But I never forget shooting a cars gas tank with 7.62x39 tracer. and all the gas pouring out.

[Chuck Haggard]

are you positive all passed the 12inch auto glass?

From atk website and Winchester some of the loads didn't pass the AG test
Like win ranger T 9mm 127+P+ I think it was around 9inches

I have also personally seen some of the .40s and .45s fail to penetrate to 12" in that test, weird stuff happens. Auto glass is kind of a trend test, not every single test shot will come out positive all of the time. There's reasons why they average up those results.

AG is also an acid test. Getting into cars with anything less than bonded .308 or high penetration 12 gauge slugs is iffy.

[Rich]

On paper, yeah, the HST gets a little bigger and cuts a little sharper and theoretically is probably 0.00001% more deadly against flying alien robot zomg!bies. In reality the Gold Dot is so universally well respected and proven that it's really, really hard to justify anything else. Except my price on the Gold Dot is about 27% higher.

.

Todd

I happen to like 124 +p over the 147 loads.

My thinking is the slide velocity !

Might help in feeding

Or incase the pistol is subject to sand/dirt!

Or like you say VoDoo

[Chuck Haggard]

Todd

I happen to like 124 +p over the 147 loads.

My thinking is the slide velocity !

Might help in feeding

Or incase the pistol is subject to sand/dirt!

Or like you say VoDoo

I think that is an actual advantage.

[ToddG]

My thinking is the slide velocity !

Another Rich (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4067) I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.

[KeeFus]

On paper, yeah, the HST gets a little bigger and cuts a little sharper and theoretically is probably 0.00001% more deadly against flying alien robot zomg!bies. In reality the Gold Dot is so universally well respected and proven that it's really, really hard to justify anything else. Except my price on the Gold Dot is about 27% higher.



Most agencies in my AO issue Gold Dots in varying calibers, mostly .45. The .45 230 grain offerings have performed remarkaby well expanding and either staying in the intended target or not having enough energy to do any damage upon exiting (actually getting caught in the clothing and stopping). The one's I have seen look like a pic from Doc's tests...with the exception of one. It hit the femur cleanly breaking it. The bullet itself shattered into a few pieces and stayed in the thigh.

ALL of my semi-auto pistols now sport standard pressure Gold Dots...230 grain for .45 & 124 grain for 9mm.

[jlw]

I tried a box of that 147gr ammo that the AMU uses, and the slide was noticeably slower and the POI shift significantly. Granted, a defensive load is running hotter, but I quickly went back to what I knew would work.

[Rich]

Another Rich (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4067) I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.

I'm glad to hear some of the pro`s think the same!

[John Hearne]

Another Rich (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4067) I know says the exact same thing. His agency carried 9BPLE and then 124gr +p Gold Dot for their 92G Berettas. He'd see instances in which a dirty, dry, or otherwise abused pistol would fail to run properly with standard pressure practice ammo and then magically spring back to life and complete reliability on a mag full of the higher pressure duty ammo.

I agree that +P ammo is a good thing in dirty pistols. I have a strong prefence for it in my pocket pistols as they seem to soak up dust and other debris.

My only issue is that the +P ammo negates a lot of the "9mm for poor shooters" argument. For a while, I was supporting two groups of 9mm shooters - the ones that couldn't qualify and those who were decent shots. I ended up insisting that the non-shooters stay with the 147 gr standard pressure load and bought 124 gr +P for those who could shoot. The extra umph was enough to cause problems with the non-shooters. (I even had one complain about shooting next to me when I was running +P 45)

[TR675]

An issue I've seen with a personal gun was extraction problems with +P ammo. Apparently that pistol has marginal extraction from the factory but it was never an issue for thousands of rounds of standard pressure ammo, and continues to not be an issue with that ammo. Adding +P to the mix caused a ridiculous amount of FTE's right away.

I know the ultimate answer to this problem is "fix the gun". But if I was recommending ammo to someone for their sock-drawer auto pistol I'd be inclined to suggest high quality standard pressure ammo.

[ToddG]

My only issue is that the +P ammo negates a lot of the "9mm for poor shooters" argument.

It depends on what you mean by "a lot," though. I'd definitely agree that +p 9mm ammo isn't as gentle as SAAMI standard pressure stuff, but it's still substantially easier to control for most poor-to-mediocre shooters than .40 S&W and probably (in most platforms) even a bit easier than standard pressure .45 Auto... and between .45 & 9mm+p the nine wins in terms of ammo cost, capacity, etc.


(I even had one complain about shooting next to me when I was running +P 45)

You and I both know there is no ammunition-selection solution for someone like that. :cool:

[John Hearne]

You and I both know there is no ammunition-selection solution for someone like that. :cool:

Absolutely true but I could get them to mostly qualify with the 147 grain, generally on the second and last attempt of the day. This kept the brass happy as they didn't pull their badge until they could requalify. Remember, we're suppose to accommodate everyone's level of mediocrity.

Since they are so generous, I've always held people to the actual time proscribed in the COF and would could shots fired afterwards as misses (which is how it's supposed to be). This led to them bringing another rangemaster from ~150 miles away to qualify one of our "special children." I never saw this "special" person get their 21 hits in the required time but the other instructor was so much better than me that he could make it happen every time. ;)

[ToddG]

Absolutely true but I could get them to mostly qualify with the 147 grain, generally on the second and last attempt of the day. This kept the brass happy as they didn't pull their badge until they could requalify. Remember, we're suppose to accommodate everyone's level of mediocrity.

Didn't mean to come across as critical of your approach in my previous post. Dude, if 147 creates passing scores out of people who failed with 124+p or 115-p or spitballs, it's a successful plan. I'm simply terrified of the idea that there are LEOs who "can't handle the recoil of the 124gr +p 9mm!" Because yeah, they should be in public armed. Seriously, I'd rather see someone like that issued an HK94. They'll look more intimidating and have an easier time hitting under stress.


Since they are so generous, I've always held people to the actual time proscribed in the COF and would could shots fired afterwards as misses (which is how it's supposed to be). This led to them bringing another rangemaster from ~150 miles away to qualify one of our "special children." I never saw this "special" person get their 21 hits in the required time but the other instructor was so much better than me that he could make it happen every time. ;)

Honest to God, I could never be a LE FI. I'd lose my mind and get fired in, like, one day. "No problem, boss. I totally understand why you think Joe can count to 21 so much better than me that it's worth a day's pay and travel. Heck, I'm so impressed with your decision that I'm going to send an email to everyone in your command chain and, just to show how much I love you, I might sent a letter to the local newspaper about it, too!" (note to those who don't know me: yes, I got fired from my last job :cool: )

[Chuck Haggard]

Todd, you have no idea.


Ref 9mms; we use standard pressure 124gr ball for training and such, we shoot our 124gr+P once per year during a cold qual when we are cycling old duty ammo out/new duty ammo in. We have had zero issues with folks shooting +P vs non +P using this system, no failures to qual in several years, and we have had a very high hit rate in our OISs. We had a run a couple of years ago with nine OISs in 18 months that were 100% hits.

I think going this route with training and duty 9mm ammo is ammo valid.

[ToddG]

Todd, you have no idea.

I've been present when senior-senior federal "LEOs" in bazillion dollar suits show up to "qualify." Watching dedicated, incredibly talented shooters & instructors coach Assistant Director Snobbooger through the process to load his magazines so he can shoot a qual where a sundial is used to estimate PAR times was enough to make me realize that self-employment is awesome.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've been present when senior-senior federal "LEOs" in bazillion dollar suits show up to "qualify." Watching dedicated, incredibly talented shooters & instructors coach Assistant Director Snobbooger through the process to load his magazines so he can shoot a qual where a sundial is used to estimate PAR times was enough to make me realize that self-employment is awesome.

OK, you have some idea :p

Not the same though when you live it. Kind of like the difference between living in and just visiting a third world country.

[ToddG]

Not the same though when you live it. Kind of like the difference between living in and just visiting a third world country.

Absolutely zero argument from me. Every time I'm at a department/agency qual I'm reminded of it and being a visitor is all I can handle.

[LSP972]

Since they are so generous, I've always held people to the actual time proscribed in the COF and would could shots fired afterwards as misses (which is how it's supposed to be). This led to them bringing another rangemaster from ~150 miles away to qualify one of our "special children." I never saw this "special" person get their 21 hits in the required time but the other instructor was so much better than me that he could make it happen every time. ;)

Wow. I thought I was the only one "they" did that to. I never saw said special child shoot his alleged qualifying scores (since it was done over a week-end)... but in the end, wasn't my dog because my name appeared NOWHERE on that slug's qual sheet.

That one broke me. All the extra time and effort I had been willing to expend (and did expend, sans OT) for "the cause" suddenly became moot. All the work trying to make sure we produced a quality product, was, to my mind, abrogated by the fact that "they" didn't hesitate to slap me in the face by neatly side-stepping my program.

After that, I became what they wanted... a drone just going through the motions. While some say that's the wrong attitude to take, like tpd223 said, you have NO idea what its really like until you live it.

Not long after, I went back to the road for a while as a supervisor, and ended my career as a plain clothes investigator. "They" won that battle, but I won the war... because I made it to retirement and have been thoroughly enjoying same for six years now. I'm still dialled-in to the agency via my consultant gig, and its really fun to watch the machinations and plots unfold, since I no longer have a stake in any of it.

The faces change, but the game remains the same...:rolleyes:

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[LSP972]

I've been present when senior-senior federal "LEOs" in bazillion dollar suits show up to "qualify." Watching dedicated, incredibly talented shooters & instructors coach Assistant Director Snobbooger through the process to load his magazines so he can shoot a qual where a sundial is used to estimate PAR times was enough to make me realize that self-employment is awesome.

I was discussing this with one of my old range assistants (who is now the lieutenant colonel over Patrol) the other day. We used to DREAD "Commander's Day", because of that very thing; having to spoon-feed those old captains and above, all while using great tact and diplomacy.

These days, all the commanders are products of OUR training program, and David told me it was quite refreshing to see the big brass handle their business with skill and aplomb when he was at Comander's Day In-Service training a few months back.

Maybe we did make a difference...

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[jlw]

On the other hand, I have seen a CPL score a CPT's qual try as a failure sending the CPT to remedial training. The CPT came very close to being unemployed and has since retired. The policy there was one opportunity for remedial training every five years. At the same range trip, a detective who had already done the remedial thing the previous year was terminated. The agency stood behind the instructor.

There is an agency in Florida that calls a cab to the range to pick up any personnel who don't qualify.

I simplified things: we don't offer remedial training. Those who fail to qualify immediately cease to be functioning Deputy Sheriff's and are driven back to the SO as they are no longer authorized to operate a patrol vehicle. Non-sworn positions are not created for them. I figure 12 paid range days with furnished ammo is more than sufficient.

[ST911]

We're all paddling in the same boat to one extent or another. Whose bringing the cooler?

[Chuck Haggard]

I have been blessed for the most part to have bosses who get, if nothing else, what true liability is.

I have actually been involved in letting people go who could not shoot, or display the ability to use deadly force properly.


Any organization that allows "commander's day" at the range is participating in a massive leadership failure.


The only such thing I ever have participated in was opening our range to the state Adjutant General because he needed to shoot a qual before going overseas, and, well, we know how getting on and off a .mil/Army range can be.



With all of the BS boiled off, the "payoff" is having a troop come back to work after an incident, go out of their way to look you up, and shake your hand to say "thanks for the training". There is no greater reward IMHO.

[LSP972]

Any organization that allows "commander's day" at the range is participating in a massive leadership failure.


The only such thing I ever have participated in was opening our range to the state Adjutant General because he needed to shoot a qual before going overseas, and, well, we know how getting on and off a .mil/Army range can be.



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Well, there are several ways to look at that, but they are beyond the scope of this discussion. "Leadership failure" is a bit strong, though.

I had to devote three full days, one-on-one, to the state insurance commisioner when he received some death threats. He wanted me to issue him a State Police weapon, and I drew the line at that. Fortunately, our Chief of Staff backed me up on that one.

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[Chuck Haggard]

I meant it to be strong, because it should be. I'll stand by that idea.

Commanders should be shooting with the troops during one of the days they are training, not at special get-togethers that give the impression, false or not, that they are above mingling with the commoners and/or can't be bothered to train and/or can't make the cut so they need special no witnesses days to "qual".

Picking up your own brass is a powerful message IMHO.


I stole the "Pick up your own kittening brass" line from Randy Watt, who may know a thing or two about leadership.

[BLR]

Picking up your own brass is a powerful message IMHO.


QFT. And absolutely true, regardless of profession, field, or station in life.

[DocGKR]

"I stole the "Pick up your own kittening brass" line from Randy Watt, who may know a thing or two about leadership."

He sure does!

Command staff absolutely should qualify and train with the troops. Period.

[Joseph B.]

It's a bit far fetched to call oneself a "leader" if that person is not setting the example to be followed. That is not to say that a leader must be the best in everything to get a person to follow them, but a good leader who aspires to be the best they can be in their duties, will inspire the follower to do the same, and hopefully to carry that torch further.

There is a lot lost in leadership in this country, not just with top brass in the MIL/LE communities, but also at a fundamental paradigm of how this country as a whole views what a leader or more correctly leadership is and or should be. Somewhere along the lines, a shift happend from identifying and developing leaders, to wanting managers. But that's probably best for a different thread.

Should a director/commander/supervisor be qualifying with the troops? He should be leading his troops, by setting the example in the preparation and performance in the qualification, and if not setting the standards higher, demonstrating his/her desire and drive to improve that performance so that they are setting the examples and providing that inspiration to the subordinates...

My $.02

[LSP972]

Commanders should be shooting with the troops during one of the days they are training, not at special get-togethers that give the impression, false or not, that they are above mingling with the commoners and/or can't be bothered to train and/or can't make the cut so they need special no witnesses days to "qual".



I have no doubt that the practice (in my old agency, anyway) was begun for precisely those reasons. It was certainly evident during my tenure as FTU supervisor.

However... regardless of WHY the practice is continued today, I can assure you that the majority of the Command Staff today is far from showing weak or failed leadership. I worked with, or trained, most of them, and still talk to them as I run across them in day-to-day business. All but a couple have NOT forgotten "from whence they came." And THAT, in my opinion, is much more important than picking up their own brass on qual day.


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[jlw]

My guys can't say this stuff about me. I am one of three people in the agency with a Master pistol pin. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

....I can assure you that the majority of the Command Staff today........


That's good to know. I wasn't speaking to those guys specifically, but more editorializing on the persistent failures in leadership I see in law enforcement today.


Of course I see continuing leadership failures throughout our country as well......................

[Chuck Haggard]

My guys can't say this stuff about me. I am one of three people in the agency with a Master pistol pin. :)

My first Chief pulled some rank in not transitioning to the .357mag when everybody else did, kept his model 15 2" with the Maga stocks and a Tyler T-Grip. I never saw him wear a uniform when I was there, always a suit.

But he was at the range with the troops when we shot, and we shot quarterly under his watch instead of twice a year.

He was an old PPC guys and would end a 60 rounds qual course with a ragged hole the size of your fist in the middle of the B27. Accuracy wise he was in the top three if he wasn't the best shot on the department.

[Dave Williams]

He was an old PPC guys and would end a 60 rounds qual course with a ragged hole the size of your fist in the middle of the B27. Accuracy wise he was in the top three if he wasn't the best shot on the department.

We had a PPC master at my dept. He smoked some bad guys back in the day. Reeeeaally good shooter.

[LSP972]

Of course I see continuing leadership failures throughout our country as well......................

Ain't that the truth...

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