View Full Version : Ammo or extractor?
justintime
10-10-2013, 05:47 PM
So today I successfully finished the 2000 round challenge... Unsuccessfully! The gun had 5 malfunctions (sig p229) and I used 5 different ammunition brands. I put one hundred rounds of Speer gold dots 125 grains to check my carry function/poi.. And a bunch of freedoms, wwb, Pearce, and monarch. All 5 malfunctions were with 100 value pack Winchester white box that I have found in various places around town.
I've noted that the wwb I've been buying has been really ugly and I had one case that had the lip bent inward and the bullet was seated crooked.
I've had 4 doublefeeds/fte and one stove pipe. It is weird to me it seems to have only been happening with the wwb and not anything else. I remember someone here stating wwb might have a shallow rim on the case? Should I be sending my gun in or....
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b431/davisjustin10/804C9EE0-A176-4623-96EA-091CBA8727BB-1491-000001F871468E51_zps33f444a9.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b431/davisjustin10/E2A6209D-E7F1-46A1-9042-2530B48CD812-1491-000001F85D8062B9_zps20dce507.jpg
Chuck Haggard
10-10-2013, 06:52 PM
If your guns works with everything else but that ammo I would guess you may have a bad run of ammo.
justintime
10-10-2013, 06:56 PM
The thing is, one of the malfunctions was from a batch I bought across the street a week before. The other malfunctions were from a different box of wwb I bought today. The gun has only had 300 rounds of wwb through the entire 2k and 5 malfunctions happened from that brand. Im wondering if anyone else has had problems with wwb recently or if its my gun :p I also realize this is basically impossible to answer on the errornet.
Al T.
10-10-2013, 07:02 PM
I vote ammo sucks.
Chuck Haggard
10-10-2013, 07:18 PM
I have noted a number of QC issues with various calibers of Winchester ammo lately.
Al T.
10-10-2013, 08:07 PM
Federal Champion is my current nemesis, but bulk ammo has taken a nose dive in the last three (four?) years.
BoppaBear
10-10-2013, 08:16 PM
Absolutely sounds like it could be ammo, but....
I had a similar FTE/ nose-butt double feed with my P30 at around 4000 flawless rounds. This one came after a little over 1,000 rounds in a week or so time period. Round in the chamber fired, but did not extract. The next round up got jammed in behind it, and the slide was stuck out of battery.
Although I keep my guns clean, especially after being run hard, I had failed to clean the extractor "claw", ever. While everything else was pretty clean, it had a ton of build-up in the "hook".
I cleaned it, and no issues since.
NOTE: Edited posts brought to you by autocorrect and Tapatalk
justintime
10-10-2013, 08:16 PM
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b431/davisjustin10/894AD9B4-4F71-40CE-AA00-AD4132409AAA-1635-0000020C443C7B86_zpse6037b2b.jpg
This was the bullet that failed to go into battery.
jetfire
10-10-2013, 08:44 PM
I have to concur that it's probably an ammo issue, I've seen a lot of QC issues with WWB lately.
hufnagel
10-10-2013, 08:59 PM
i'll also vote ammo.
I'm a little surprised at this thread. I'd have said all the malfunctions were the gun. Except the damaged case one.
I make some concessions in ammo tolerance due to tight chambers on most of my guns, but a failure to extract its a gun issue unless you have an extremely rough chamber.
In my overly humble opinion, this is a downside to non adjustable extractors.
If I feed my carry 45s ammo that even looks like 45 ACP, it will feed and extract just fine. Not necessarily so with the match guns, but that's another story.
I'd check the extractor, tension and geometry.
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Chuck Haggard
10-11-2013, 09:09 AM
If the ammo isn't running to specs then often weird stuff happens, recoil impulse that is either too low or too high can cause issues.
Just sayin.
This was the bullet that failed to go into battery.That looks familiar:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6410-Federal-AE-124g-Ammo-Issues&p=109029&viewfull=1#post109029
justintime
10-11-2013, 09:48 AM
That looks familiar:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6410-Federal-AE-124g-Ammo-Issues&p=109029&viewfull=1#post109029
Interesting - those are bad! That little folded piece of brass locked the gun up pretty good. can't imagine what those would have done. I'm hoping its ammo, but like bill I thought failures to extract were a gun issue, I'm just not very knowledgeable on such things.
jetfire
10-11-2013, 09:48 AM
I'm a little surprised at this thread. I'd have said all the malfunctions were the gun. Except the damaged case one.
I make some concessions in ammo tolerance due to tight chambers on most of my guns, but a failure to extract its a gun issue unless you have an extremely rough chamber.
In my overly humble opinion, this is a downside to non adjustable extractors.
If I feed my carry 45s ammo that even looks like 45 ACP, it will feed and extract just fine. Not necessarily so with the match guns, but that's another story.
I'd check the extractor, tension and geometry.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4
That's begging the question though; you're assuming that the non-adjustable extractor is the problem based on no evidence, and so the solution is to check to the extractor?
If Brands A, B, C, D, and E all work in my gun with reasonable sample sizes but Brand F doesn't work, it doesn't take a 10 pound brain to apply a little Razor de Occam to the problem and stop using Brand F. Only if the problems repeat themselves with other brands of ammo does it then make sense to start looking for a different problem.
Oh. Right.
Because tolerance stacking doesn't happen with non adjustable extractor guns. And it's not worth knowing if someone's gun is on the outer performance envelope because of that. It's better to just not shoot brand whatever ammo.
Good call.
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That little folded piece of brass locked the gun up pretty good. Yep, same here, locked up tight. I had to remove extractor to free the slide, then pry out the round.
jetfire
10-11-2013, 11:14 AM
Oh. Right.
Because tolerance stacking doesn't happen with non adjustable extractor guns. And it's not worth knowing if someone's gun is on the outer performance envelope because of that. It's better to just not shoot brand whatever ammo.
Good call.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4
Which solution has the fewest assumptions? That WWB has some serious QC issues, or that his particular mass produced gun (which is reliable with all other brands of ammo) is a statistical outlier and doesn't work with one brand of ammo because it has tolerance stack issues?
Not all solutions are complex.
JeffJ
10-11-2013, 11:24 AM
It depends on your outlook -
Bill is an engineer, he wants to know "why" is the gun not working
Caleb is a writer/competitive shooter - he just wants the gun to work and doesn't really care how
Bill is an engineer, he wants to know "why" is the gun not working
Caleb is a writer/competitive shooter - he just wants the gun to work and doesn't really care how
There is a middle ground. I want a gun that works, and if someone wants to throw a few nuggets of information about why it was broken - I'm OK with that. But I don't feel the need, nor care, for the minutia.
jetfire
10-11-2013, 11:39 AM
It depends on your outlook -
Bill is an engineer, he wants to know "why" is the gun not working
Caleb is a writer/competitive shooter - he just wants the gun to work and doesn't really care how
That's mostly true. I take the time to become a certified armorer on the guns I shoot on the reg, specifically so that when they stop working, I can spend a minimal amount of time un-puppyroping them and get back to what's important: shooting.
In the case of justintime's problem, I'd go with the following diagnostic process:
WWB doesn't work in my gun
Everything else does
Stop using WWB
If I started seeing the same issues crop up with multiple brands of ammo, I'd then start to look for a mechanical problem. But it doesn't make sense to me to assume a mechanical problem when the simplest solution is probably that "cheap ammo is cheap".
Which solution has the fewest assumptions? That WWB has some serious QC issues, or that his particular mass produced gun (which is reliable with all other brands of ammo) is a statistical outlier and doesn't work with one brand of ammo because it has tolerance stack issues?
Not all solutions are complex.
You really think the assumptions are different one way versus the other? Check your premise
Though if you think checking your gun for issues is complex, yeah. I won't argue.
Ignorance is not bliss, nor expedient. Ignorance is expensive, embarrassing, and painful. Ignorance bites you in the ass at the worst times. Like when you need your gun the most.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4
Savage Hands
10-11-2013, 12:46 PM
So today I successfully finished the 2000 round challenge... Unsuccessfully! The gun had 5 malfunctions (sig p229) and I used 5 different ammunition brands. I put one hundred rounds of Speer gold dots 125 grains to check my carry function/poi.. And a bunch of freedoms, wwb, Pearce, and monarch. All 5 malfunctions were with 100 value pack Winchester white box that I have found in various places around town.
I've noted that the wwb I've been buying has been really ugly and I had one case that had the lip bent inward and the bullet was seated crooked.
I've had 4 doublefeeds/fte and one stove pipe. It is weird to me it seems to have only been happening with the wwb and not anything else. I remember someone here stating wwb might have a shallow rim on the case? Should I be sending my gun in or....
That might have been me when doing the testing for Apex's M&P and/or Glock extractor which I believe to have learned from Randy Lee and I did verify this myself when eyeballing it that the WWB rim was more rounded and possibly thinner IIRC.
jetfire
10-11-2013, 12:58 PM
You really think the assumptions are different one way versus the other? Check your premise
Though if you think checking your gun for issues is complex, yeah. I won't argue.
Ignorance is not bliss, nor expedient. Ignorance is expensive, embarrassing, and painful. Ignorance bites you in the ass at the worst times. Like when you need your gun the most.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4
You are the James May to my Jeremy Clarkson.
TR675
10-11-2013, 01:28 PM
You are the James May to my Jeremy Clarkson.
Applause.
One of my guns worked great with one brand of ball. I ran defensive ammo in it 2,000 rounds after its last cleaning and it crapped the bed.
Maybe it's an ammo thing, maybe it's a gun thing, but I'll never know because it went in the safe and I rely instead on other, known reliable guns. I may revisit the issue sometime down the road, but for now it's a practice and gamer piece.
justintime
10-11-2013, 02:02 PM
You really think the assumptions are different one way versus the other? Check your premise
Though if you think checking your gun for issues is complex, yeah. I won't argue.
Ignorance is not bliss, nor expedient. Ignorance is expensive, embarrassing, and painful. Ignorance bites you in the ass at the worst times. Like when you need your gun the most.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4
How would you recommend I check for proper extractor tension? Also this gun appears to eject properly and very strong. When I eject rounds by hand the usually fly across the room even without a magazine inserted.
justintime
10-11-2013, 02:22 PM
That might have been me when doing the testing for Apex's M&P and/or Glock extractor which I believe to have learned from Randy Lee and I did verify this myself when eyeballing it that the WWB rim was more rounded and possibly thinner IIRC.
Has randy, or you experienced similar problems with wwb? Or was it functioning fine
Savage Hands
10-11-2013, 02:32 PM
Has randy, or you experienced similar problems with wwb? Or was it functioning fine
I have not but I believe the 9mm M&P extractor was made due to ejection and/or extraction issues with ammo like WWB with thinner/rounded rim.
I'm a little surprised at this thread. I'd have said all the malfunctions were the gun. Except the damaged case one.
I make some concessions in ammo tolerance due to tight chambers on most of my guns, but a failure to extract its a gun issue unless you have an extremely rough chamber.
In my overly humble opinion, this is a downside to non adjustable extractors.
If I feed my carry 45s ammo that even looks like 45 ACP, it will feed and extract just fine. Not necessarily so with the match guns, but that's another story.
I'd check the extractor, tension and geometry.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4
I notice problems with the P229R 9mm with Dash -1 slide and long extractor over the last few years.
And I'm a sig fan and carry a 98 P229 40cal.
I wont buy one unless it comes with the older extractor .
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