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View Full Version : 9mm and .38spcl pocket gun rounds tested



JodyH
10-04-2013, 12:58 PM
Got a chance to attend a ammo manufacturer sponsored, LE hosted "Jello" shoot.
4 layer denim covered ballistic gelatin.
The baseline round was a Winchester RA40B from a 3.66" barreled pistol.

My contributions to the test were:
Barnes Tac-XPD 115gr. +P 9mm from a Kahr PM9 (3.1" barrel).
Wilson XPB 110gr. +P .38spcl. from a S&W 640 Pro J-Frame (2.125" barrel).
Both rounds are loaded with the Barnes solid copper JHP's.

Both of these rounds penetrated about 2" short of the baseline round and the expanded rounds looked just like the advertisement photos.
I was quite impressed with their performance out of the 2" and 3" barrels, especially the Barnes 9mm load because it has extremely mild recoil, even out of the baby Kahr.

We were going through the line pretty quickly so I didn't get a chance to see the numbers (depth, expansion, velocity), but did get to do a quick eyeball comparison.
:cool:

Chuck Haggard
10-04-2013, 11:58 PM
That Winchester loading is a pretty good one.

I'd guess the results you saw would be very close to what Barnes has posted.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_9mm_115gr_TAC-XP.pdf

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.38spl_110gr_TAC-XP.pdf

JodyH
10-05-2013, 10:03 AM
That Winchester loading is a pretty good one.

I'd guess the results you saw would be very close to what Barnes has posted.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_9mm_115gr_TAC-XP.pdf

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.38spl_110gr_TAC-XP.pdf
Pretty much exactly that.
The Winchester RA40B was hitting right around 15" in every Jello block.
Both of my loads were about 2" short of it in the block.

In the "run what you brung" portion of the Jello shoot they set up 3 blocks of gelatin that were about 1'x1'x2' long (pretty much used a Yeti 65qt. cooler as the mold). They then shot a RA40B into the center of each block as the baseline/control and then 2-4 people would should their gun/pet round into one of the corners of the block. You got a good visual comparison of penetration. At the end they cut everything out and showed expansion. Not perfectly scientific but it was good enough for comparative analysis.
Pretty much the exact same process you go through at the Cor-bon jello shoots if you've attended one of those.

Chuck Haggard
10-05-2013, 04:23 PM
No matter who loads them, the Barnes copper HPs seem to work really well.


I'll note that they certainly get into cars well through the sheet metal.

LSP972
10-05-2013, 07:05 PM
No matter who loads them, the Barnes copper HPs seem to work really well.


I'll note that they certainly get into cars well through the sheet metal.

How about safety glass? With all new vehicles now coming with safety glass all around, its something to think about.

Of the several agency FTU heads I've asked about this, none are looking into it and in fact two didn't even know about the "safety glass all around" deal. One of those asked me "What do you care, anyway? You're retired!"

Right; how silly of me.:rolleyes:

.

Chuck Haggard
10-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Info right there in the links brother.

LHS
10-06-2013, 12:54 AM
No matter who loads them, the Barnes copper HPs seem to work really well.


I'll note that they certainly get into cars well through the sheet metal.

When I first got some Barnes JHPs (185gr .45ACP +p loaded by Cor-Bon), I shot up an old junk car in the desert. I shot at all manner of shallow angles, and couldn't get it to deflect. It just punched right through.

I also shot up some bowling pins, and noticed interesting performance. The cavities would fill up with wood, but still collapse partially, making a sharp FMJ-profile out of the slug. They out-penetrated 230gr ball easily in that medium, but didn't expand at all.

Chuck Haggard
10-06-2013, 02:14 AM
The only load I have seen from a .38 snub that will reliably get through a car door. Not saying that is a big deal really, just something I've noticed.

LSP972
10-06-2013, 10:47 PM
Info right there in the links brother.

Got it, thanks.

.

GJM
10-06-2013, 10:56 PM
When I first got some Barnes JHPs (185gr .45ACP +p loaded by Cor-Bon), I shot up an old junk car in the desert. I shot at all manner of shallow angles, and couldn't get it to deflect. It just punched right through.

I also shot up some bowling pins, and noticed interesting performance. The cavities would fill up with wood, but still collapse partially, making a sharp FMJ-profile out of the slug. They out-penetrated 230gr ball easily in that medium, but didn't expand at all.

If you were looking for max penetration, on an animal, I wonder how the 185+P Barnes would compare with the 230 flat point made by Hornady and available in DT and Buffalo Bore loads.

LHS
10-06-2013, 11:56 PM
If you were looking for max penetration, on an animal, I wonder how the 185+P Barnes would compare with the 230 flat point made by Hornady and available in DT and Buffalo Bore loads.

Probably not as good, it wouldn't have the mass to maintain momentum, and it would likely expand properly. That said, Barnes' TSX and TTSX hunting rounds have impressed the heck out of me in terms of penetration, but I'm not sure how well that would extrapolate to handgun rounds.

Chuck Haggard
10-07-2013, 12:02 AM
On body shots they would expand and come up rather short of "solids". They might be a really good choice for head shots though.

Rich
10-07-2013, 04:10 AM
wish someone would load a heavier bullet than the 110 in 38spl

I'm sure the case has enough length for a longer bullet.

Chuck Haggard
10-07-2013, 07:49 AM
wish someone would load a heavier bullet than the 110 in 38spl

I'm sure the case has enough length for a longer bullet.

The Barnes solid copper bullets I assume? The 110gr is already rather long, and tests above it's weight as it were.

Rich
10-08-2013, 08:54 AM
test above its weight as it were?

I don't understand? my bad

I understand the copper bullets are long compared to lead core with jacket with the same weight.


Also would like to see loading of the 155gr in 40S&W

Chuck Haggard
10-08-2013, 09:20 AM
test above its weight as it were?

I don't understand? my bad

I understand the copper bullets are long compared to lead core with jacket with the same weight.


Also would like to see loading of the 155gr in 40S&W

The 110gr Barnes doesn't act like a 110gr bullet from a .38 special. "Normal" 110gr bullets expand too much and fail to penetrate, or fail to expand at all, a real problem with defensive ammo. The Barnes expands and still penetrates.

Chuck Whitlock
10-08-2013, 10:13 AM
The Barnes solid copper bullets I assume? The 110gr is already rather long, and tests above it's weight as it were.

I've been thinking of this concept, as it applies to both rifle and pistol ammo.
It seems to me that different terminal characteristics between weight classes in the same caliber isn't so much a function of the actual weight, but seems to be more of the length or perhaps sectional density relative to the diameter. With conventional jacketed lead construction, heavier = longer. The performance of the solid copper Barnes offerings seems to point to this. This may be worthy of it's own thread.

Chuck Haggard
10-08-2013, 12:09 PM
I think part of the reason the Barnes penetrates so well but still expands wide is that the fan blade type of petals allow the bullet to pass through tissue better than a more regular type of mushroomed bullet.

Rich
10-11-2013, 02:59 PM
The 110gr Barnes doesn't act like a 110gr bullet from a .38 special. "Normal" 110gr bullets expand too much and fail to penetrate, or fail to expand at all, a real problem with defensive ammo. The Barnes expands and still penetrates.

Yes I'm well aware of that !

Matter of fact I sent Z to Josh at barnes to get the gel testing put up on ar15 forum. I'm glad its hear as well.

JodyH
10-12-2013, 11:19 AM
The one issue I've run into with the Barnes bullets is they occasionally tumble from my 1 7/8" barreled model 360 J-frame.
This same gun will shoot 148gr. lead full wad-cutters all day into one ragged hole.

I don't have the tumble issue from my 2 1/8" barreled 640 Pro.

Chuck Haggard
10-12-2013, 08:57 PM
IIRC a number of the 2" D&Ws had issues like this, something about how they cut the rifling on some of their barrels for awhile.

HBWCs would obturate FAR more easily than a solid copper bullet.

Rich
01-09-2014, 01:20 PM
The one issue I've run into with the Barnes bullets is they occasionally tumble from my 1 7/8" barreled model 360 J-frame.
This same gun will shoot 148gr. lead full wad-cutters all day into one ragged hole.

I don't have the tumble issue from my 2 1/8" barreled 640 Pro.

JodyH

Amen

And some say they aren't accurate or hard to shoot.

I've bought several J frames in my life and everyone of them shot the same as yours ! and had a POA/POI =158gr.

I admit I like shooting the 640/649 over the AW.

BTW
thanks for the heads up on the 110Barnes