Remember: Your gun is not concealed...

[Tamara]

...it's "hidden (http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-news/2013/10/ag_jim_hood_says_hidden_guns_o.html)", you nefarious little gun owner, you.

[BLR]

Every time you or BaiHu throw up a link and I read it, it only reinforces my desire to pay off all debts, sell off all my property, and move to the Alaska wilderness that much more.

No internet, no phones, no people. No politicians (they aren't people).

[BWT]

It's a step forward and step back.

Forward because it's a gun on campuses legally.

Back because it says your CWP (which in my opinion shouldn't be required) isn't good enough.

But as far as Attorney Generals go, I think that's about as good as they get.

We ran into this in the Supreme Court. I think it was Scalia that was all 2A is an absolute until Machine Guns!!!!

[Tamara]

It's a step forward and step back.

Forward because it's a gun on campuses legally.

Back because it says your CWP (which in my opinion shouldn't be required) isn't good enough.

But as far as Attorney Generals go, I think that's about as good as they get.

We ran into this in the Supreme Court. I think it was Scalia that was all 2A is an absolute until Machine Guns!!!!

I was referring to the terminology used in the headline.

The tiered permit thing is similar to what we're going through in Indiana. A coalition of gun owners, led by firearms instructors, wants to institute a new higher-tier "Super CCW Permit" with a training requirement so that holders of the Alpha Permit could have reciprocity with more states (and the instructors will get more business from people seeking the required tranining to get these upgraded permits.)

Other than the reciprocity thing, though, it doesn't have much to offer since there are vanishingly few places you can't carry with a regular Indiana pink card: K-12 schools, buildings that have courtrooms in them, riverboat casinos... um... airplanes... I think that's about it.

My faction's biggest fear is that they seem to be willing to throw the regular no-training CCW permit under the bus to get their new reciprocity-able one passed, heaping restrictions on the basic card that aren't there now and for which there is no evidence of a requirement. It's not like there's a rash of untrained Hoosier LTCH holders shooting up bars, after all.

I could get behind it if they drop the requirement for a pink card altogether: Go to Vermont carry for residents in-state, and have a training-required permit for folks who want to travel.

[Dagga Boy]

Every time you or BaiHu throw up a link and I read it, it only reinforces my desire to pay off all debts, sell off all my property, and move to the Alaska wilderness that much more.

No internet, no phones, no people. No politicians (they aren't people).

We need an island...........snow scares me. You have no idea how bad I want to "drop out" of society and just be left alone in a place no one wants to go.

[GardoneVT]

It's a double edged sword.

If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns.

If you pass anti-Cleetus carry laws, then it's a matter of time before some anti gun Attorney General, Governor, Legislature ,or unholy combination of all decide everyone gets to be Cleetus and CCW becomes denied or difficult to acquire.

[JV_]

then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns.I am unaware of the plethora of 'Cleetus' issues in Vermont. Can you please provide a few?

[JeffJ]

It's a double edged sword.

If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns.

If you pass anti-Cleetus carry laws, then it's a matter of time before some anti gun Attorney General, Governor, Legislature ,or unholy combination of all decide everyone gets to be Cleetus and CCW becomes denied or difficult to acquire.

Are there massive amounts of NDs in Vermont that I'm not hearing about? Or Indiana which issues licenses without training? I'm not sure your Cleetus thoughts hold water. I'm also not sure that carrying a gun is a privilege reserved for those who can afford state mandated training and registration fees.

[LHS]

It's a double edged sword.

If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns.

If you pass anti-Cleetus carry laws, then it's a matter of time before some anti gun Attorney General, Governor, Legislature ,or unholy combination of all decide everyone gets to be Cleetus and CCW becomes denied or difficult to acquire.

I had some reservations along these lines when they removed the requirement for a CCW permit in AZ, but then I remembered H.L. Mencken's quote: "I believe in only one thing and that thing is human liberty. If ever a man is to achieve anything like dignity, it can happen only if superior men are given absolute freedom to think what they want to think and say what they want to say. I am against any man and any organization which seeks to limit or deny that freedom. . . [and] the superior man can be sure of freedom only if it is given to all men."

I don't see anything particularly wrong with using a tiered approach as a way to get our foot in the door. For example, AZ only allows CCW holders to carry into locations that serve alcohol (though you still can't drink while carrying), and technically only CCW holders can carry within 1000' of a school (though that's Federal, not state law). Ease the new locations into the top tier, then gradually introduce it to lower tiers, until there's no difference between the tiers at all.

One bad thing about the lowering of standards for AZ CCWs is that some states have stopped reciprocity (Nevada comes to mind). By keeping a high-standards CCW available, we can retain more reciprocity for those who wish to avail themselves of it. As long as Average Joe can still carry (be it open, as it used to be, or concealed as it is now), I'm OK with it.

[GardoneVT]

Are there massive amounts of NDs in Vermont that I'm not hearing about? Or Indiana which issues licenses without training? I'm not sure your Cleetus thoughts hold water. I'm also not sure that carrying a gun is a privilege reserved for those who can afford state mandated training and registration fees.

That's because it's not.

Unfortunately the Feinsteins and Cuomos in this nation disagree, and will use whatever tricks they can to undermine the 2nd Amendment. Last month a gun blog reported an interesting example of that in Florida.Turns out the state law allows "career centers" to block concealed carry,a power NOT allocated to local governments or their buildings.

So what did one hoplophobe city manager do? She installed a "career center" ,aka a job themed computer terminal,on the second story of the city building, conincidentally located on the same floor as her office.That's what were up against.Given that grim reality, I'd choose the lesser of two evils and let Cleetus do his thing.

[Erik]

Every time you or BaiHu throw up a link and I read it, it only reinforces my desire to pay off all debts, sell off all my property, and move to the Alaska wilderness that much more.

No internet, no phones, no people. No politicians (they aren't people).


We need an island...........snow scares me. You have no idea how bad I want to "drop out" of society and just be left alone in a place no one wants to go.

Can I interest you guys in a 3-hour tour?

[Totem Polar]

I think this whole concept of enhanced CCW merits a separate thread. Idaho just went through this, on the theory (or fistfull of wishes) that doing so would gain them more reciprocity than Utah. The most active Idaho trainer I know was against the idea of two tiers (just the tiers, not the training requirement for reciprocity, natch). As of now, Idaho has two permits: Joe anybody, and qual ninja. Not sure what the diff is, because there was no point in offering classes until the standards were sorted out (which they apparently are at this point: not very high).

Also, what is a "non binding legal opinion" anyways? Legalese for "guess"? IANAL...

I am sometimes amazed at the sheer bulk of things that I just don't know.

[Tamara]

If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns..

Cletus requires no training to carry his XD anywhere in the state right now. In several states he doesn't even need a piece of paper. Your comment makes no sense.

[Tamara]

Amazed there hasn't been any commentary on the "zomg HIDDEN guns" language.

[Chuck Haggard]

Amazed there hasn't been any commentary on the "zomg HIDDEN guns" language.

I was picking up what you wuz throwin down.

Sounds all nefarious and what not, don't it?

[BLR]

Amazed there hasn't been any commentary on the "zomg HIDDEN guns" language.

Sorry. Between this, BaiHu's thread, and class, I'm desensitized today.

"Ok class, is iron carbide a hard material?". Nothing but crickets. I'm just glad I don't have kids. The world is playing out just like Idiocracy.

[NickA]

Sorry. Between this, BaiHu's thread, and class, I'm desensitized today.

"Ok class, is iron carbide a hard material?". Nothing but crickets. I'm just glad I don't have kids. The world is playing out just like Idiocracy.

On the bright side, if you can raise your kids to be just average, they could be the next President Not Sure ;)
(and yes, that's a depressing thought)

[ToddG]

If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns.

Cites? Plenty of jurisdictions have no-permit carry or no-training carry and I don't recall seeing any blood running in the streets.

[ToddG]

Unfortunately the Feinsteins and Cuomos in this nation disagree, and will use whatever tricks they can to undermine the 2nd Amendment.

So we need more restrictive gun control laws to stop the people who want more restrictive gun control laws from using exaggerated or made-up problems to promote gun control?

http://msmummyoftwo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/lost-confused-signposts.jpg

[SecondsCount]

We need an island...........snow scares me. You have no idea how bad I want to "drop out" of society and just be left alone in a place no one wants to go.

I like your style.

[GardoneVT]

So we need more restrictive gun control laws to stop the people who want more restrictive gun control laws from using exaggerated or made-up problems to promote gun control?

http://msmummyoftwo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/lost-confused-signposts.jpg

No.

In fact ,I'd go far enough to say that even requiring a CCW permit goes too far.We don't need permits to own Bibles or to access the Internet,after all.But that being my opinion doesn't make it reality.

Facts right now, are that as well intentioned as a training tier is it represents another tool to shaft us in the long run.
As you observe, where there is no problem the antis will fabricate one to aid their agenda.

[ToddG]

In fact ,I'd go far enough to say that even requiring a CCW permit goes too far.We don't need permits to own Bibles or to access the Internet,after all.But that being my opinion doesn't make it reality.

I think the confusion, then, comes from where you said:


"If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns."


As you observe, where there is no problem the antis will fabricate one to aid their agenda.

As I observe? Again, you're the one who said:


"Unfortunately the Feinsteins and Cuomos in this nation disagree, and will use whatever tricks they can to undermine the 2nd Amendment."

[Mr_White]

On the bright side, if you can raise your kids to be just average, they could be the next President Not Sure ;)
(and yes, that's a depressing thought)

That's Secretary Not Sure!

The President is named Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

[GardoneVT]

I think the confusion, then, comes from where you said:


"If you establish a no-questions asked carry law then Cleetus gets to take his XD all over the state, to predictably unpleasent results inherent to untrained people carrying guns."



As I observe? Again, you're the one who said:


"Unfortunately the Feinsteins and Cuomos in this nation disagree, and will use whatever tricks they can to undermine the 2nd Amendment."

I was stating the risks, simple as that.

I wasn't trying to come off as pro-disarament by suggesting rights should be tied to training.The 2nd Amendment makes no requirement for such,and neither would I.

Cleetus might have problems with the 4 rules,but he's got the same right to carry a gun as Larry Vickers.I wouldn't advocate any political policy which says your civil rights depend on ANY government permit. Once that happens ,it's a matter of time before the clock stops on exercising it at all. Britain went from a $10 pistol permit to total prohibition in less then 80 years.

[NickA]

That's Secretary Not Sure!

The President is named Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

I thought Not Sure was prez after Camacho, but what do I know, I got my degree at Costco :D

[Mr_White]

I thought Not Sure was prez after Camacho, but what do I know, I got my degree at Costco :D

Well it's spacetime's fault then. They were both President.

I wonder how long one of those door-people at Costco would last, saying 'welcome to Costco, I love you.' Actually I say that to my wife every time we go into Costco.

I like President Camacho's name better than Secretary Not Sure's name though.

[Chuck Whitlock]

We need an island...........snow scares me. You have no idea how bad I want to "drop out" of society and just be left alone in a place no one wants to go.

Yep. The ability to sit outside and comfortably enjoy a cigar or pipe along with your bourbon or scotch is toward's the top of the list.