Cyclists and the Road

[BaiHu]

To switch gears, literally and it's slightly OT, I'd like to ask our resident bicyclists a question:

Are you supposed to share the road, follow the laws/traffic and act like a motor vehicle or are you supposed to yield to motor vehicles?

I ask this in all seriousness, b/c I consistently see cyclists in my area choosing to be d-bags, IMHO of course. Sometimes they are right in front of my grill at a red light, pretending like they're going to get off the line as fast as a car (wanted to bump this guy off the road) or they decide that riding side by side along winding blind turns with no shoulder in a 40 mph zone is a safe way to ride. This behavior makes me think that they are treating themselves as cars, but since I have a bit of weight, power and torque on them, I think being roadkill but right is a poor life decision.

[hufnagel]

To switch gears, literally and it's slightly OT, I'd like to ask our resident bicyclists a question:

Are you supposed to share the road, follow the laws/traffic and act like a motor vehicle or are you supposed to yield to motor vehicles?

I ask this in all seriousness, b/c I consistently see cyclists in my area choosing to be d-bags, IMHO of course. Sometimes they are right in front of my grill at a red light, pretending like they're going to get off the line as fast as a car (wanted to bump this guy off the road) or they decide that riding side by side along winding blind turns with no shoulder in a 40 mph zone is a safe way to ride. This behavior makes me think that they are treating themselves as cars, but since I have a bit of weight, power and torque on them, I think being roadkill but right is a poor life decision.

Sounds like something that should be in a seperate thread. :D

being a cyclist though I'll answer this briefly...
we're supposed to treat ourselves as vehicles
vehicles are supposed to treat us like pedestrians
we're supposed to obey all traffic laws
we're allowed to take possession of a lane "If conditions warrant" (note we the cyclists get to make that decision.)
double-file riding is only supposed to happen on a multi-lane road but there is NO LAW i'm aware of on the books that defines this. however we're not supposed to "impede the normal flow of traffic unless warranted" (see above lane possesion.)

If a new thread forms around this I'll expound on all of this. And yes, I have seething hatred for some of my fellow cyclists.

[JV_]

I'd like to ask our resident bicyclists a question:

Are you supposed to share the road, follow the laws/traffic and act like a motor vehicle or are you supposed to yield to motor vehicles?


In Virginia, cyclists have the same rights to the road as motor vehicles. I can "own" the lane, just like a car. Cyclists have to follow the same rules as cars when on the road. If you're on a sidewalk, you have to follow the same rules as pedestrians.

Cyclists can ride side-by-side, unless you're impeding traffic - then you have to go single file.

IME, if I ride too close to the white line, too many drivers think they can "squeeze in" with oncoming traffic, it's just not safe. 12"-18" in from the white line is where I ride, and you can pass when there's no oncoming traffic.


I have a few good friends that I won't ride with anymore, they're so concerned with not stopping that they do things that are not predictable by drivers. It makes me uncomfortable.

[ford.304]

It's all about basic politeness, just like with other cars.

Follow traffic signs like a car, pull to the side/single file when you see cars are stuck behind you. Don't do something dumb. Realize that you're making every car around you nervous because they don't want to accidentally kill you.

Give cyclists clear space. Don't pass them when there is oncoming traffic or you can't see if there's oncoming traffic. Don't do something dumb. Realize that you're making the cyclist nervous because they don't to accidentally be killed.

Around here it has never made sense to me that bikes are vehicles, not pedestrians. There is rarely significant traffic on the sidewalks, always seemed like it would make more sense to use them as bike paths.

[JV_]

There is rarely significant traffic on the sidewalks, always seemed like it would make more sense to use them as bike paths.

I avoid bike paths like the plague. Dogs, people, and groups have no idea how to react to being overtaken by a bike and it's a guaranteed way to have a collision. If you say "on your left", to signify that I'm passing on your left, people often move to the left - right in to my path.

Bike going from 20-30 mph don't belong on sidewalks or pathways.

[ToddG]

Bike going from 20-30 mph don't belong on sidewalks or pathways.

Or on roads with speed limits of 35+.

[JV_]

Or on roads with speed limits of 35+.As long as I have a rear light, visible from 500' behind me, the law says I can travel on roads w/ speed limits >= 35 mph.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-1015

[ToddG]

I didn't say it was illegal.

It's just rude. If you wouldn't operate your car along a five mile stretch at 20mph under the limit then you shouldn't operate your bike that way, either. We've seen a sudden uptick in cyclists around here lately and they're causing ridiculous traffic issues. The county just put in a bunch of those "bikes are entitled to the entire lane" signs at the bottom of long, steep hills.

[JV_]

The county just put in a bunch of those "bikes are entitled to the entire lane" signs at the bottom of long, steep hills.We need a few of those in my area.


If you wouldn't operate your car along a five mile stretch at 20mph under the limit then you shouldn't operate your bike that way, either. I ride Skyline Dr all the time. I don't feel like my 8-9 mph speed, on some multi-mile climbs, is unreasonable or rude. Doing 20 under on rural country roads isn't the same as 20 under on Route 123 in Vienna.

[secondstoryguy]

As a former bicycle messenger and bike commuter I always respected vehicles and rode accordingly. You can argue legalities all you want but getting crunched by a car or catching a brick to the back of the head thrown by some angry local is not something that the law can fix once it happens. The offender might go to jail or whatever, but your going to be dead or hobbled for life.

The thing that gets me is most of the cyclist here in Austin are not commuting to work they are simply working out/exercising. Unlike going to work, getting groceries, or other daily tasks a citizen needs to use he roads for they are hogging up the streets for entertainment, often making areas unsafe for them and others. On the way to my house 2-3 riders will sometimes ride 2 abreast on the sole curvy rural 45mph speed limit road to my neighborhood clogging up traffic with sometimes 10-15 cars behind them. Other times they will ride early in the morning clad in darker clothing, piddling along at 5mph while they chat with their buddies...they are just aching to get plowed by a local. Some will say, "that's their right and it's legal". I say there are loads of things that are legal that nothing good will come of.

Cyclist here rarely follow the rules of the road. They cut between cars, sneak in front of you at lights and generally think that the laws don't apply to them.

As a side note the violent behavior of riders here in Austin have increased. Several friends have fallen victim to ball bearings and other objects being thrown at their vehicles when the cyclist didn't like what they did(even when what they did was legal).

[BaiHu]

I didn't say it was illegal.

It's just rude. If you wouldn't operate your car along a five mile stretch at 20mph under the limit then you shouldn't operate your bike that way, either. We've seen a sudden uptick in cyclists around here lately and they're causing ridiculous traffic issues. The county just put in a bunch of those "bikes are entitled to the entire lane" signs at the bottom of long, steep hills.

This is my main issue. It reminds me of this whole 'fairness' doctrine and my sig-line. I live in an area where the road crowns into a "pit of despair" (say it like Mel Smith the Albino in Princess Bride) and it is impractical for cyclists to 'share' the road with me. I'm not stopping from 40mph to 0 b/c some asshole 'is righter' than me, b/c I'm supposed to look out for his well being. Well guess what, we've got a free healthcare system as of today that will make you healthier, but that doesn't mean I'm going to become a raging obese alcoholic that wakes and bakes his heroin to jumpstart his day.

So if I run you over around a blind turn at 40mph, b/c you deliberately ride a bicycle on a road 10+mph below the speed limit that a) has no shoulder and b) has great twists and turns that cyclists love, then don't be surprised if you end up donating your liver to me now that I have me some Obamacare.

In short, I'd rather be wrong and safe than dead and right. Please, for the love of god and our respective families, don't turn me into the vehicular manslaughter guy and you into crow feed, b/c you need to hang your sack in front of my grill 10-20 mph slower than anything else on the road.

[JV_]

So if I run you over around a blind turn at 40mph, b/c you deliberately ride a bicycle on a road 10+mph below the speed limit that a) has no shoulder and b) has great twists and turns that cyclists love, then don't be surprised if you end up donating your liver to me now that I have me some Obamacare.And you shouldn't be surprised if you're charged with manslaughter for killing someone else who had just as much legal right to the road as you. If you can't drive safely with everyone else on the road, perhaps you should take public transportation. The roads are not just for 4+ wheeled vehicles. It's not illegal to go slower than the speed LIMIT.


that a) has no shoulder Bikes generally can't ride on the shoulder of most roads, they're too filled with glass and debris.

[littlejerry]

Cyclists drive me nuts.

If you ride on busy roads in the middle of rushour, with blind turns, at 15-20mph below the speed limit, don't be surprised when you get clipped. And the "law" is null when you don't signal, don't yield, and run every red light or stop sign.


It's kind of like OCing in a Starbucks in California. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

If I pulled that shit in my car I'd get a ticket.

[JV_]

There are plenty of cyclists that obey the rules of the road and still have to deal with idiot drivers that can't be "inconvenienced".

[JV_]

There are plenty of roads in my areas with "blind turns". When I'm driving, as I approach the turn, I'm looking down the road. If there's someone on a bike, motorcycle, horseback, or on a tractor - I can see them. Unless they're stopped in the road around the corner, it's not a surprise. If it's some type of road with repeated blind turns, back to back, you probably shouldn't be driving so fast you can't react to traffic going slower than you.

[BaiHu]

And you shouldn't be surprised if you're charged with manslaughter for killing someone else who had just as much legal right to the road as you. If you can't drive safely with everyone else on the road, perhaps you should take public transportation. The roads are not just for 4+ wheeled vehicles. It's not illegal to go slower than the speed LIMIT.

Bikes generally can't ride on the shoulder of most roads, they're too filled with glass and debris........

If it's some type of road with repeated blind turns, back to back, you probably shouldn't be driving so fast you can't react to traffic going slower than you.

JV,
I totally hear where you are coming from, however, there are many major roads in my area that have several feet of shoulder with hills that have no blind turns where we can all share the road, but that isn't fun, cool or challenging enough. Well guess what dude, go on a circuit or go fly in a squirrel suit and dodge mountains, but if you're going to 'share' the road with me, the larger and more dangerous of the two vehicles, then be prepared to lose your 'imagined' battle. FWIW, this is not directed at you JV, b/c I've never seen you on the road.

Now, let's take the bolded/itaclicized/underlined statement. Shouldn't that also be equally/doubly true for the guy with a nut on his head and a stick b/w his sack that weighs 1/10th of all the other vehicles on the road?? The cyclists are the ones creating the unsafe driving conditions on the road, not the other way around.

Driving the speed limit around a blind turn is often safe for the car, but unsafe for the cyclist that maybe around said blind turn with on coming traffic.


Cyclists drive me nuts.

If you ride on busy roads in the middle of rushour, with blind turns, at 15-20mph below the speed limit, don't be surprised when you get clipped. And the "law" is null when you don't signal, don't yield, and run every red light or stop sign.


It's kind of like OCing in a Starbucks in California. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

If I pulled that shit in my car I'd get a ticket.

Ding!
DING!
DING!!!!

[JV_]

The cyclists are the ones creating the unsafe driving conditions on the road, not the other way around.Actually, I think it goes both ways.

[Shellback]

The Critical Mass garbage sets me off. Ignoring all traffic laws, jamming up entire cities with no other intent than to screw up traffic, intimidate drivers and do stupid $&%^. Plenty of Youtube videos with examples of said stupidity.

[JV_]

there are many major roads in my area that have several feet of shoulder with hills that have no blind turns where we can all share the road, but that isn't fun, cool or challenging enough.FWIW: I don't ride busy roads at rush hour. If I'm going to travel roads that are busier than I'd prefer, I save it for my Sat AM ride when I'm out at 7AM.

[BaiHu]

Actually, I think it goes both ways.

Roads were made for cars. We can argue that cars came after bicycles, but it was the proliferation of cars that brought on the need for paved roads and not the other way around. We can certainly argue that for a developed country, we are way behind in not having created bike lanes.


FWIW: I don't ride busy roads at rush hour. If I'm going to travel roads that are busier than I'd prefer, I save it for my Sat AM ride when I'm out at 7AM.

This is an intelligent decision and a safer way to 'share' the road.

[JV_]

Roads were made for cars. Even if I accept that it's true, so what?

The laws say that bikes and cars have equal access to the roads, and you agreed to the rules/laws when you started using the road. They're public roads, not someone else's private road.

Tax dollars are what built the roads, and I pay taxes too.

[BaiHu]

Even if I accept that it's true, so what?

The laws say that bikes and cars have equal access to the roads, and you agreed to the rules/laws when you started using the road. They're public roads, not someone else's private road.

Tax dollars are what built the roads, and I pay taxes too.

Then let's get more 'reckless driving' tickets into the hands of more cyclists and we'll shake on it :p

[JV_]

Then let's get more 'reckless driving' tickets into the hands of more cyclists and we'll shake on it :pTickets should be handed out equally, no one should get preferential treatment.

I've passed a few speed traps in my area, I always try (as hard as I can) to get a speeding ticket. 2-3 mph isn't enough ....

[BaiHu]

In the end, the practical problem isn't patience or sharing, it's physics and reality.

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[ford.304]

So if I run you over around a blind turn at 40mph, b/c you deliberately ride a bicycle on a road 10+mph below the speed limit that a) has no shoulder and b) has great twists and turns that cyclists love, then don't be surprised if you end up donating your liver to me now that I have me some Obamacare.

I'm a driving enthusiast - I do autocross, have a lowered sport compact, and really, really want to get out to more HPDE's... but I have to say, the one time I put my car in the ditch really changed my opinion on this.

If you can't stop in time to miss a cyclist, then you can't stop in time to miss a kid who has run into the road, a deer, a fallen branch, or someone with a flat tire. That means that you're not driving responsibly.

The limit to safe driving isn't how fast you can take a corner on a clear day with no one else in sight. It's how fast you can take a corner and still stop with your car under control at the limit of your visibility.

The cyclist is taking an unnecessary risk... but so is the driver who is going too fast to be able to avoid them.

[JV_]

In the end, the practical problem isn't patience or sharing, it's physics and reality. I'm not sure I follow this sentence.

The practical problem is about patience. Sharing the road doesn't mean "Get out of MY way!"

The consequences of someone's poor decision may be related to physics, but fault can often be found on both sides. There are plenty of riders and drivers that behave poorly.

[ToddG]

The practical problem is about patience. Sharing the road doesn't mean "Get out of MY way!"

I agree. If only more cyclists would pull over for a minute to let that long line of backed up traffic pass rather than pedaling along well below the speed limit, things would be fine. But it seems I never see a cyclist patient enough to do that.

And JV, I don't mean to pick on you, brother, but all the "the law says it's ok" stuff is, as others have pointed out, exactly like the Starbucks/OC-rifle people. The law says I can walk around in nothing but a speedo. Do you really want me hanging out on the sidewalk in front of your house like that?

There's an intersection right near my house where cyclists routinely cut their way up to the front of the line and then casually turn left when the light turns green, blocking the long line of cars and forcing many people to wait a second time through the light. But he doesn't obey the rules, he passes me in my own lane, and then because he wasn't patient enough to wait his turn he screws over lots of other people.

Personally, I predict things will hit a tipping point in places like Austin and eventually the huge majority (people who drive on the road) will insist on law changes that keep traffic moving efficiently and reduce the risk to everyone by limiting the "equality" of bicycles on the motorway.

[JV_]

If only more cyclists would pull over for a minute to let that long line of backed up traffic pass rather than pedaling along well below the speed limit, things would be fine.FWIW: When a right turn lane comes up, I generally ride on the right side of the white line to give someone behind me a chance to pass though. But to be honest, the roads around me aren't busy enough that it's an issue. No one is behind me for more than 15 seconds before they have a chance to overtake me by using some of the oncoming lane.


There's an intersection right near my house where cyclists routinely cut their way up to the front of the line and then casually turn left when the light turns green, blocking the long line of cars and forcing many people to wait a second time through the light. But he doesn't obey the rules, he passes me in my own lane, and then because he wasn't patient enough to wait his turn he screws over lots of other people. That's more in line with the Adam Kokesh slant on OC than normal OC. He's breaking laws, and should be ticketed.

I don't open carry, and I don't ride on busy roads. But both of those should be my choice, and not forced by law.

[ToddG]

FWIW: When a right turn lane comes up, I generally ride on the right side of the white line to give someone behind me a chance to pass though. But to be honest, the roads around me aren't busy enough that it's an issue. No one is behind me for more than 15 seconds before they have a chance to overtake me by using some of the oncoming lane.

If that's how it actually works out, then no problem and I wouldn't see you as one of the guys I want to burst into flames and die a painful horrible death on the side of the road.


I don't open carry, and I don't ride on busy roads. But both of those should be my choice, and not forced by law.

The analogy doesn't travel that far, though. If you ride on busy roads and impede traffic, that's impacting other people for the sake of your "right." Laws exist specifically for the benefit of an ordered society. And as cyclists go from "cool eco-friendly champions" to an annoying self-entitled bunch of twits I fully expect the laws to change.

Part of my personal beef is that I'm subjected to cyclists in two very different environments: on the road and on a public "bike" path.


On the road, they expect people in cars to slow down, "be patient" as JV said, and "share the road."
On the bike path, they expect everyone to move out of their way so they can go five times faster than I am when I'm walking my dog.


Maybe I should start throwing ball bearings at the guys who fly past me on the bike path, shouting because my dog -- on her perfectly legal 6' leash -- isn't allowing them to pass whenever they want, as fast as they want.

I was honestly going to go for a bike ride today. Now instead I'm thinking about taking a sledgehammer to it.

[BaiHu]

The limit to safe driving isn't how fast you can take a corner on a clear day with no one else in sight. It's how fast you can take a corner and still stop with your car under control at the limit of your visibility.

The cyclist is taking an unnecessary risk... but so is the driver who is going too fast to be able to avoid them.


I'm not sure I follow this sentence.

The practical problem is about patience. Sharing the road doesn't mean "Get out of MY way!"

The consequences of someone's poor decision may be related to physics, but fault can often be found on both sides. There are plenty of riders and drivers that behave poorly.

We have about 200 million drivers in America and let's just say we have about 70 million gun owners in America (stay with me).

All of us constantly complain about how the average gun owner is more of an owner than a shooter and thereby they probably aren't as sufficient as they should/could be if they were in a 'situation'.

However, you both expect 200 million drivers to a) know their limits, b) taken the time to study said limits, c) never be distracted, d) despite driving most of their lives with the expectation that the road is clear, be prepared to deal with a catastrophic event yet e) most drivers can't even handle the sight of rain/snow and sometimes even sun glare.

As I said, it is about physics and reality. Meaning most people, as they drive around a blind turn, do not expect to have a cyclist in front of them going 5-15 mph slower (regardless of how 'bright' that red light is) to suddenly swerve due to a rock, glass, crack, hole, etc. Once this action occurs, there are only 3 responses, a) swerve right, b) swerve left or c) stop. Now I ask you both:

1. How many people get their brakes/tires checked on a regular basis?
2. What happens to the car behind them if they swerve right into the ditch/shoulder? And the cyclist?
3. What happens to the car in the opposite lane if they swerve left? And to the cyclist?

I've never hit a cyclist and I am into driving very much the way I am into pistol craft, however, the road works best without obstacles. So why do we think moving and unpredictable obstacles, that can't keep up with the 'native' craft that is on the road the majority of the time, should be under the same rule set? I'm not saying you should end cycling, I'm saying that cycling on certain roadways has an inherent risk that is higher than normal roadways and these are the exact roadways cyclists love to log jam.

ETA: Todd's quote is spot on and in my wheelhouse of complaints:
Part of my personal beef is that I'm subjected to cyclists in two very different environments: on the road and on a public "bike" path.

On the road, they expect people in cars to slow down, "be patient" as JV said, and "share the road."
On the bike path, they expect everyone to move out of their way so they can go five times faster than I am when I'm walking my dog.

[JV_]

The analogy doesn't travel that far, though. If you ride on busy roads and impede traffic, that's impacting other people for the sake of your "right." Laws exist specifically for the benefit of an ordered society. And as cyclists go from "cool eco-friendly champions" to an annoying self-entitled bunch of twits I fully expect the laws to change.School buses, USPS/mail trucks, construction trucks, farm implements, and 18 wheelers all impede traffic. In my area, they're far more of a problem than cyclists.


Part of my personal beef is that I'm subjected to cyclists in two very different environments: on the road and on a public "bike" path. I can't comment on the bike path stuff. I avoid them, I don't like the atmosphere, and I have goals when I ride. I can't 'train' on a bike path.


I was honestly going to go for a bike ride today. Now instead I'm thinking about taking a sledgehammer to it.You should go for a ride.

[JV_]

1. How many people get their brakes/tires checked on a regular basis?In VA, we have state inspections. Brakes are on the list of items. So, at least yearly.



2. What happens to the car behind them if they swerve right into the ditch/shoulder? And the cyclist?
3. What happens to the car in the opposite lane if they swerve left? And to the cyclist?


People swerving in to objects, people included, is an issue. As I said before, you shouldn't be going so fast around blind corners that you can't deal with a little something unexpected without having an accident. Cyclists generally don't stop on the inside of blind corners, and you should be looking ahead of where you're traveling.

What's a much bigger problem in my area is people willing to pass me while we're both cresting a small hill. I know for a fact they can't see the oncoming traffic, because I'm higher than they are and I can't see it, yet they ride all the way in the left lane risking a head on.

[BaiHu]

School buses, USPS/mail trucks, construction trucks, farm implements, and 18 wheelers all impede traffic. In my area, they're far more of a problem than cyclists.

But here's the rub: They all have a broad enough, loud enough and tough enough exterior to reduce death and injury more so than a bicycle. I'm sure you've heard that many of the electric and hybrid vehicles are, IIRC, being slowly mandated to have some "noise" as to alert cyclists and pedestrians. IMO it's no different than the 20 inch wide silent bicycle to my front/right or rear/right.

I used to ride everywhere as a kid in NJ in the 80s, but I never road my bike in these back road country twisties like the uber-cyclists do today. It's just like wearing a mini skirt, walking alone, drunk in a dark alleyway at 2am, it ain't illegal and you don't "deserve what you may get", but you're making yourself an attractive nuisance of your own choosing.



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[JV_]

They all have a broad enough, loud enough and tough enough exterior to reduce death and injury more so than a bicycle. So what you're arguing for is a minimum level of "protection", to reduce bodily injury, for everything that uses the road?

[ford.304]

School buses, USPS/mail trucks, construction trucks, farm implements, and 18 wheelers all impede traffic. In my area, they're far more of a problem than cyclists.



Honestly, if the average cyclist in our area drove like the average mail truck or tractor driver, people would not complain about them. The standard around here is for tractor drivers to act as though they are borrowing the roadway, not owning it, and to do everything within reason to make themselves both visible and easy to pass.

[BaiHu]

So what you're arguing for is a minimum level of "protection", to reduce bodily injury, for everything that uses the road?

No, common sense...


Honestly, if the average cyclist in our area drove like the average mail truck or tractor driver, people would not complain about them. The standard around here is for tractor drivers to act as though they are borrowing the roadway, not owning it, and to do everything within reason to make themselves both visible and easy to pass.

Like what ford is saying above.



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[JV_]

and to do everything within reason to make themselves both visible and easy to pass.

Not around here. They're too wide for one lane, and there's no shoulder - just a drop off. You can't pass them until they turn off.

[JV_]

No, common sense...And I'm looking for the same from drivers. Don't pass at the crest of an uphill, slow down around blind corners if you haven't been looking ahead, and pass with enough space to not make for a close call.

Both sides of this, car drivers and cyclists, have a lot of areas to improve.

[hufnagel]

Honestly, if the average cyclist in our area drove like the average mail truck or tractor driver, people would not complain about them. The standard around here is for tractor drivers to act as though they are borrowing the roadway, not owning it, and to do everything within reason to make themselves both visible and easy to pass.

For the most part that's what I do. There are times when it's justified, warranted, and SAFER to take possesion of the lane... known bad spots off the travel line, gravel glass and all kinds of other debris, narrowing of roadway, blind curves, etc. It has been proven time and again a cyclist is safer if they take possession of the lane and make traffic behind them pass them as if they were ANY OTHER AUTHORIZED SLOW MOVING VEHICLE ON THE ROAD. I try and minimize any disruption I might cause and on a frequently traveled route I can even time my approach to known problem areas so that I'm between traffic blocks. Otherwise, it just is what it is. I have as much right to the tarmac as everyone else. It's the law, it's backed up by statstics and it's the way it is. I do everything I can not to cause a problem with traffic, but traffic needs to understand that sometimes I have to take the lane. I'll make another post later detailing some of the reasons why I CHOOSE to violate certain rules and laws.

[JV_]

It has been proven time and again a cyclist is safer if they take possession of the lane and make traffic behind them pass them as if they were ANY OTHER AUTHORIZED SLOW MOVING VEHICLE ON THE ROAD.Every single close call I've had was when I was hugging the white line. That's why I now ride 12" in from the line, if the lines are painted. Most of the roads I ride on have no markings.

[Tamara]

Roads were made for cars. We can argue that cars came after bicycles, but it was the proliferation of cars that brought on the need for paved roads...

BZZZZZZT (http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/category/velocipedes/)! :D

Just found that out myself the other day, actually. It was the velocipede craze of the late 19th Century that really spurred the construction of paved roads, the expansion of which made practical automobiling possible.

[JV_]

BZZZZZZT (http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/category/velocipedes/)! :D

Just found that out myself the other day, actually. It was the velocipede craze of the late 19th Century that really spurred the construction of paved roads, the expansion of which made practical automobiling possible.

I thought that was the case, which is why I qualified my initial answer to him. I was just too lazy to look it up. Thank You.

[Tamara]

I thought that was the case, which is why I qualified my initial answer to him. I was just too lazy to look it up. Thank You.

Thank my roommate's obsession with pennyfarthings (http://twowheeledmadwoman.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-ordinary-rider.html). ;)

[JV_]

Is that like a unicycle for folks that can't unicycle? :o

[Tamara]

Is that like a unicycle for folks that can't unicycle? :o

Fun Fact: High-wheel bikes are the origin of the term "header" as a synonym for a fall. On long downhills (thankfully not an Indianapolis terrain feature), riders would place their legs above the bars so that if the front wheel hit a curb or something, they'd land on their feet instead of their faces. :eek:

[BaiHu]

Ok Tam. Modern roads were made for automobiles. Yeesh! Picky, picky! :p

JV,

I think our collective beef is really something we all lament on this forum and that's situational awareness. I vent about it with drivers and cyclists alike here in NJ and I'm sure both equally irk you in your neck of the woods.

Suffice it to say we could use more alert humans and more designated lanes for bikes. If we had 6 more inches on either side of the roads with a bike line, we'd see a big improvement around NJ.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[JV_]

I understand.

I like bike lanes, as long as they're as clean as the road (ie. no glass and metal bits). Too often, they're so filled with debris that it's not usable so cyclists end up in the road so they don't get flats. The downside of bike lanes is the increased likelihood of a right hook that accompanies them.

[Josh Runkle]

I think if a bicyclist had to ride behind a 2-year old on a tricycle one day a year, they would understand why I'm pissed that my community has spent millions of dollars on bike trails that go literally anywhere and everywhere within 5-10 miles, yet I still bikes on the road. If it gets any worse, it would make more financial sense for me to start taking a horse and buggy around, because the speed would be the same.

[Josh Runkle]

Suffice it to say we could use more alert humans and more designated lanes for bikes. If we had 6 more inches on either side of the roads with a bike line, we'd see a big improvement around NJ.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Really? Most places around here have them but bicyclists don't use them, despite the 300 pissed people behind them.

[Josh Runkle]

http://youtu.be/V3nMnr8ZirI

[JV_]

bike trails that go literally anywhere and everywhere within 5-10 miles

Not everyone rides to go 'somewhere'. I'm out to rack up miles and get in my training. I want to go out for 75-100 miles on a Saturday morning and not do 20-30 mind-numbing loops on trails.

I don't even use the 3 mile trail that goes around my neighborhood, unless I'm riding behind my 3 year old on her tricycle :)

[JV_]

Really? Most places around here have them but bicyclists don't use them, despite the 300 pissed people behind them.
Probably because they'll get a flat tire when they use them. If you want people to use them, get your city/county to rid them of debris. Seriously, we have them in a city just north of me and they're not usable.

[Josh Runkle]

Not everyone rides to go 'somewhere'. I'm out to rack up miles and get in my training. I want to go out for 75-100 miles on a Saturday morning and not do 20-30 mind-numbing loops on trails.

I don't even use the 3 mile trail that goes around my neighborhood, unless I'm riding behind my 3 year old on her tricycle :)

That's kind of my point. My 15 minute ride to work or school now becomes 30-45 minutes because 4 friends decided to work out together and put their need to have a good time above the need for their fellow man who actually has somewhere to be.

[JV_]

http://youtu.be/V3nMnr8ZirI


That's awesome, thanks.

[JV_]

put their need to have a good time above the need for their fellow man who actually has somewhere to be.We all use the roads for different reasons. I try not to let my reasons impact others, but it's inevitable that there's some overlap. And there are just as many drivers that try to "let me know" that I'm inconveniencing them. Even with a road that's 100% for cars that drive the speed limit, it's not inconvenience free. People make turns without turn lanes, slow down for wildlife, school buses are out there making stops, mail trucks are delivering mail, etc. This is what it's like to live in a society with other people.

[Josh Runkle]

We all use the roads for different reasons. I try not to let my reasons impact others, but it's inevitable that there's some overlap. And there are just as many drivers that try to "let me know" that I'm inconveniencing them. Even with a road that's 100% for cars that drive the speed limit, it's not inconvenience free. People make turns without turn lanes, slow down for wildlife, school buses are out there making stops, mail trucks are delivering mail, etc. This is what it's like to live in a society with other people.

Well, I don't stop for wildlife because I love it, I stop because I don't want to damage my car. I don't slow down for bicyclists because I appreciate their aspect of society...

[hufnagel]

That's kind of my point. My 15 minute ride to work or school now becomes 30-45 minutes because 4 friends decided to work out together and put their need to have a good time above the need for their fellow man who actually has somewhere to be.

then contact the local police department, report them, request a cruiser be dispatched, and file a formal complaint against the individuals in question. just because "4 friends" are doing it wrong doesn't mean ALL cyclists do it wrong. Don't pull a play from the anti-2A book and paint all cyclists with the same brush. Trust me I get pissed at my fellow spandex wearing members when they do dipshit things, since they make the rest of us look bad.

also, it strains credibility to claim 4 cyclists can cause a 15-30 minute delay on a drive that normally takes 15 minutes. if that were regularly the case I'm sure some vigilante driver would have had a "discussion" with them by now.

[JV_]

I don't slow down for bicyclists because I appreciate their aspect of society...If you're only slowing down to avoid a vehicular manslaughter charge, that's fine with me.


OK. I'm checking out of this thread for a bit. Time to go out and piss off some federal workers who were tagged as essential.

[Tamara]

Don't pull a play from the anti-2A book and paint all cyclists with the same brush.

ohsnap.gif

[hufnagel]

Well, I don't stop for wildlife because I love it, I stop because I don't want to damage my car. I don't slow down for bicyclists because I appreciate their aspect of society...

perhaps you should slow down so you don't create a manslaugter case, with you as the defendant. if you're so callous that taking a couple seconds out of your "busy day" to safely and cleanly pass a slower moving VEHICLE (which you are by law obligated to treat a cyclist on the road as, FYI) then perhaps you should review your emotional state whilst driving, or perhaps curtail your driving.

[hufnagel]

ohsnap.gif

I know, that was the equivalent of pulling Hitler into an argument, but the point needed to be made.

[Josh Runkle]

perhaps you should slow down so you don't create a manslaugter case, with you as the defendant. if you're so callous that taking a couple seconds out of your "busy day" to safely and cleanly pass a slower moving VEHICLE (which you are by law obligated to treat a cyclist on the road as, FYI) then perhaps you should review your emotional state whilst driving, or perhaps curtail your driving.

So you've never followed a combine down the road for 10 miles while the speed limit is 55 and you're doing 10mph and thought, gee, I wish this guy wouldn't have done this at 7:30 when the large majority of traffic is moving, I wish he was doing this at 10 am when most drivers are off the road.

[Josh Runkle]

Don't pull a play from the anti-2A book and paint all cyclists with the same brush.

I don't. Just the ones that are on the road during a peak driving time with 300 pissed drivers behind them who can't pass, when there's a perfectly good trail going to the same destination.

[hufnagel]

I don't. Just the ones that are on the road during a peak driving time with 300 pissed drivers behind them who can't pass, when there's a perfectly good trail going to the same destination.

I invite you to kit up and go riding along these trails you mentioned at 5mph, 10mph, 15mph, 20mph, and faster if you can. then tell me how useful they are. I personally cruise at 15mph+... WITH a 50# kid and a 50# 3rd wheel hanging off the back of my bike. In general for the most part, those trails are NOT conducive to traveling at any kind of speed. They're not exclusively bike paths either... people, dogs, kids, etc are on those same paths. They are NARROW and as such dangerous to ride a bicycle on.

Also there are no regulations or restrictions for use of PUBLIC roadways depending on the time of day or the projected traffic flow. It's no different then if someone kittens it up and snarls the road. You deal with it. And as I said if there's a consistent problem REPORT IT. Police are there for a reason... use them.

[peterb]

If I didn't ride on twisty back roads, I'd have nowhere to ride. That's the reality of rural life. Most of the roads do not have shoulders, and the outboard foot of pavement is often badly cracked. Our state law says to ride as far to the right as is practical-- not possible -- and that's what I do. I always single file when there's traffic, and I stop at intersections and obey lane markings.

Look, I know what a pain it is when I'm driving and a driver ahead is going well below the speed limit and there's no place to safely pass for miles. I don't want to be that guy. But there are times when a driver might have to lift his right foot for a few seconds before they can safely get around me on my bike, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

Cyclists who are rude and inconsiderate are a PITA. I'd be happy to see more be ticketed for blowing through intersections and other common violations, because they make all of us look bad.

[Josh Runkle]

I invite you to kit up and go riding along these trails you mentioned at 5mph, 10mph, 15mph, 20mph, and faster if you can. then tell me how useful they are. I personally cruise at 15mph+... WITH a 50# kid and a 50# 3rd wheel hanging off the back of my bike. In general for the most part, those trails are NOT conducive to traveling at any kind of speed. They're not exclusively bike paths either... people, dogs, kids, etc are on those same paths. They are NARROW and as such dangerous to ride a bicycle on.

So, you get frustrated because of all of the things that you unnecessarily have to slow down for? Things that really have no business being in that lane? And you don't understand my point?

[hufnagel]

So you've never followed a combine down the road for 10 miles while the speed limit is 55 and you're doing 10mph and thought, gee, I wish this guy wouldn't have done this at 7:30 when the large majority of traffic is moving, I wish he was doing this at 10 am when most drivers are off the road.

Given I don't live in an area prevelant with combines or farm equipment in general, no. I have been stuck behind slow moving vehicles/traffic though. It happens. Calm down, have some dip*. Again if it's a consistent problem go talk with the town/county/state about making changes to the roadway to support what is obviously a recurring traffic flow problem.

* 10 bonus internet points for anyone who gets the reference.

[Josh Runkle]

Given I don't live in an area prevelant with combines or farm equipment in general, no. I have been stuck behind slow moving vehicles/traffic though. It happens. Calm down, have some dip*. Again if it's a consistent problem go talk with the town/county/state about making changes to the roadway to support what is obviously a recurring traffic flow problem.

* 10 bonus internet points for anyone who gets the reference.

Well, that's my point. My community has recognized those problems and concurrently spent millions on bike trails which don't get kittening used by the people they were created for!

[hufnagel]

So, you get frustrated because of all of the things that you unnecessarily have to slow down for? Things that really have no business being in that lane? And you don't understand my point?

Your definition of "unnecessary" is not the same as mine. What you deem "unnecessary" and what I deem "necessary" may coincide. Given that mine is a "necessary" that involves potential and significant physical injury to either myself or my charge trumps your "unnecessary."

The tarmac is not YOUR exclusive property simply because you have a motor.

[hufnagel]

Well, that's my point. My community has recognized those problems and concurrently spent millions on bike trails which don't get kittening used by the people they were created for!

Again, see my offer to go riding. What is safe at <5mph is unsafe at >15mph. You would know this if you ride. I have a right to the roads as much as you do.

Also apparently your community failed to solve the problem correctly. They created something NOT intended nor useful to the cycling populace.

[hufnagel]

I do think we have a problem with a generation of "roadies" that didn't grow up with people who cycled regularly, nor in a school system that educated children about proper cycling etiquite. When you come up with a good and effective way of solving THAT problem let me know... and tell the 2A people as well as it will probably be a useful method for the crop of new gun owners that barely know which end the bullet comes out of.

[Josh Runkle]

Again, see my offer to go riding. What is safe at <5mph is unsafe at >15mph. You would know this if you ride. I have a right to the roads as much as you do.

Also apparently your community failed to solve the problem correctly. They created something NOT intended nor useful to the cycling populace.

If it was 4 lanes wide, had fences on both sides to keep out wildlife, had no sharp turns, didn't allow pedestrians and was a flat, smooth surface, it still wouldn't be right for the cycling populace. We'd have to pay an angry driver to follow the cyclists so that the trails actually got used.

[hufnagel]

Also with regards to cycling paths... I live in and border counties that were creating a network of cycling and walking paths that were supposed to join a large number of train stations in the northern region. some of those paths were created. VERY FEW PEOPLE use them! why? they're unsafe for cyclists! there are pedestrians on them and they don't go where I need/want to go. about half the system was put in before it was abandoned, because the bean counters discovered this exact issue.

[hufnagel]

If it was 4 lanes wide, had fences on both sides to keep out wildlife, had no sharp turns, didn't allow pedestrians and was a flat, smooth surface, it still wouldn't be right for the cycling populace. We'd have to pay an angry driver to follow the cyclists so that the trails actually got used.

again you take the argument too far and into the obsurd. you are trying to limit the freedom of a populace simply because you feel "inconvenienced" at certain times. it doesn't work that way.

[hufnagel]

I will give you a perfect example of a total cock-up the county did here a couple years ago...

I live at the intersection of 2 "important" roads.
both roads used to be 2 lanes of travel in each direction, so 4 lanes wide.
3 years ago the county did a "study" and decided that one direction shouldn't be 2+2 any longer, but 3+1, to allow 2 lanes to turn left. the goal was to aleviate congestion during rush hour (FYI, it didn't work.)
the opposite direction of traffic was reduced to 1 lane crossing the intersection, and doesn't widen back out to 2 lanes for about 300'.
now, we have a large and thriving cycling community around here (in fact the local club just went by... 40+ riders strong)
the unintended consequence of that action was what was 2 lanes of crossing traffic is now one, bottling up not only the cars but the BICYCLISTS as well. Whereas before cars could take one lane to cross and the bikes could use the other, now the cars must WAIT for 40+ cyclists to get up to speed and transit the intersection and that 300' of single lane road. There is no ability for traffic to pass safely due to the narrow width of the road (no shoulders at all.) Frequently not all the cyclists can even make the light due to inconsiderate motorists turning after the arrow goes red and BLOCKING the intersection! Note that the cyclists frequently transit 2-up or more, just so they can all get through the intersection as group. if they were to ride single file (as they should technically) the delays would be even greater.
By you logic cyclists should be BANNED from that section of roadway, since they now create an "unnecessary" delay because of the traffic flow change. It's not THEIR fault the county screwed everyone.

[peterb]

I've seen very few bike paths that were safe for riding >15mph.

I absolutely agree that cyclists riding anything other than single file on the right when there's traffic waiting to pass is rude.

But I saw a near-miss for a head-on collision a couple of days ago because the lone vehicle overtaking me couldn't wait a few seconds for the lone vehicle approaching to go by before pulling out to pass. I was doing 25 in a 35(downgrade) with good sight lines, less than 2' from the edge of the pavement. How was that my fault?

I know it's fun to drive fast on twisty roads. I've done a lot of it myself. But if you overdrive your sightlines and find something unexpected around the corner, you bear some of the responsibility. Drive/ride like you'd be happy to meet yourself coming the other way.

[ToddG]

I do think we have a problem with a generation of "roadies" that didn't grow up with people who cycled regularly, nor in a school system that educated children about proper cycling etiquite. When you come up with a good and effective way of solving THAT problem let me know... and tell the 2A people as well as it will probably be a useful method for the crop of new gun owners that barely know which end the bullet comes out of.

Um, no. I rode a bike to school every day for almost five years when I was a kid, from middle of 5th grade through 9th. There were no bike lanes back then. In all that time I had one collision with a car and it was because I was being stupid and slid underneath a car that was stopped at a STOP sign.

Maybe I just didn't have enough of a sense of entitlement as a kid but the thought that was always going through my mind was borrowed from HGG...

Mr. Prosser: Do you know how much damage this bulldozer would sustain if I just let it roll over you?
Arthur: How much?
Mr. Prosser: None at all.

[Shellback]

Equal rights to the roadway should incur the same type of fees, rules & regulations. Insurance, registration, inspections, plates, etc. An extra no-gas tax would be appropriate as well since that's where a lot of the taxes are collected for fixing those same roads.

[peterb]

Equal rights to the roadway should incur the same type of fees, rules & regulations. Insurance, registration, inspections, plates, etc. An extra no-gas tax would be appropriate as well since that's where a lot of the taxes are collected for fixing those same roads.

Because a cyclist inflicts the same wear & tear on the road, and has the same potential to cause injuries and property damage?

I've lived in a city where bikes had to be registered, and didn't have a problem with it.

[ToddG]

Equal rights to the roadway should incur the same type of fees, rules & regulations. Insurance, registration, inspections, plates, etc. An extra no-gas tax would be appropriate as well since that's where a lot of the taxes are collected for fixing those same roads.


http://youtu.be/wlMwc1c0HRQ

[JV_]

Because a cyclist inflicts the same wear & tear on the road, and has the same potential to cause injuries and property damage?
+1

[Spr1]

The same lack of civility and "me" culture that pervades our society has left neither cyclists or drivers unscathed.

Right or wrong is probably best left for the lawyers arguing over a stain in the road. I believe consideration should rule for the rest of the participants. I frequently see riders riding abreast and obstructing traffic when they could have easily switched to single file upon hearing the car. Silly me, I thought "car back!" was a required etiquette. On the flip side, I was almost killed once by a car that decided to speed up and make a right turn in front of me instead of waiting no more than 5 seconds to pass safely behind a bike going over 20 mph along the shoulder.

My favorite, most common ride has me on a 50 mph road, because it has 10 ft wide shoulders and bike lanes in places. It is not quite as scenic as some of the 25 mph roads around here, but it is infinitely safer, except that time a guy on a motorcycle decided it would be fun to pass me on the right side of that generally sufficient shoulder. I will admit to experiencing an amygdala hijack. Fortunately, I was not able to catch up to him.

[Shellback]

Because a cyclist inflicts the same wear & tear on the road, and has the same potential to cause injuries and property damage?

In Nevada you can drive a 1966 POS car and pay $20 a year VS me buying a new BMW and paying $700 a year. What puts more wear and tear on the road, pollution, etc? I don't think the fees have squat to do with the possible damage that's incurred.

[Tamara]

Transporting myself at various times by foot, bicycle, motorcycle, sports car, and station wagon, the vehicle threads the last few days have been fascinating. Apparently I'm everybody's *kitten*hole and should just keep my vehicles off the road, my *kitten* indoors, and the state traffic code to myself. Awesome! :eek:

[peterb]

In Nevada you can drive a 1966 POS car and pay $20 a year VS me buying a new BMW and paying $700 a year. What puts more wear and tear on the road, pollution, etc? I don't think the fees have squat to do with the possible damage that's incurred.

Sounds like a bad system.

Speaking of BMWs...... http://www.bankrate.com/financing/cars/study-bmw-drivers-are-the-worst/. :rolleyes:

Generalizations are such fun!

[hufnagel]

Um, no. I rode a bike to school every day for almost five years when I was a kid, from middle of 5th grade through 9th. There were no bike lanes back then. In all that time I had one collision with a car and it was because I was being stupid and slid underneath a car that was stopped at a STOP sign.

Maybe I just didn't have enough of a sense of entitlement as a kid but the thought that was always going through my mind was borrowed from HGG...

Mr. Prosser: Do you know how much damage this bulldozer would sustain if I just let it roll over you?
Arthur: How much?
Mr. Prosser: None at all.


You and I are old enough to have done that. We're of the last generation where a stay-at-home parent was common, where the "nuclear" family still existed for the most part. There's a definite trend around where I live where former "urbanites" who did NOT ride alot in their youth have picked up the hobby, but without the education growing up of how to handle themselves. The same has been going on with the motorcycle community... persons our age with an "itch" to try out the biker scene, grabbing a $30k Harley and thinking they're a god on 2 wheels, with nothing more than a MSF class (if that!) under their belts.

And believe me I'm fully aware of how little damage myself and my little bike will do to just about anything. I've hit the deck and collided with my fair share of things in the past as well. It's just how it goes sometimes.

[Drang]

The Critical Mass garbage sets me off. Ignoring all traffic laws, jamming up entire cities with no other intent than to screw up traffic, intimidate drivers and do stupid $&%^. Plenty of Youtube videos with examples of said stupidity.

The Critical Massholes around here remind me of the motorcyclists in the Range Rover video in the other thread. They claim they are simply trying to educate motorists about sharing the road with cyclists, but from I've seen, they're trying to provoke confrontations; some seem to be vying for the role of martyr.

[TGS]

They claim they are simply trying to educate motorists about sharing the road with cyclists, but from I've seen, they're trying to provoke confrontations; some seem to be vying for the role of martyr.

They probably O.C. too.

[Tamara]

Critical Mass is the EXACT analog of an AR-15 rally at Starbucks.

[peterb]

Equal rights to the roadway should incur the same type of fees, rules & regulations. Insurance, registration, inspections, plates, etc. An extra no-gas tax would be appropriate as well since that's where a lot of the taxes are collected for fixing those same roads.

Bringing us to the obvious conclusion that more regulation would make the streets safer for everybody. It's just common sense.

[hufnagel]

Critical Mass is the EXACT analog of an AR-15 rally at Starbucks.

I cannot refute that.

[ToddG]

Bringing us to the obvious conclusion that more regulation would make the streets safer for everybody. It's just common sense.

You know, sometimes more regulation is a good thing. The mere existence of law is not in and of itself good or bad. It's the specifics that matter. Or do you think DUI laws should all be repealed?

I think it's a great idea to make cyclists who ride on public roads demonstrate knowledge of applicable traffic laws, get licensed, and pay for their use of the road like every other vehicle on the street.

[MDS]

I think it's a great idea to make cyclists who ride on public roads demonstrate knowledge of applicable traffic laws, get licensed, and pay for their use of the road like every other vehicle on the street.

Maybe an endorsement, like I had to get for a motorcycle? I like it!

[peterb]

You know, sometimes more regulation is a good thing. The mere existence of law is not in and of itself good or bad. It's the specifics that matter. Or do you think DUI laws should all be repealed?

I think it's a great idea to make cyclists who ride on public roads demonstrate knowledge of applicable traffic laws, get licensed, and pay for their use of the road like every other vehicle on the street.

How about enforcing the existing laws before we start passing new ones? I suspect that if cyclists started being ticketed their behavior might change.

[ToddG]

How about enforcing the existing laws before we start passing new ones? I suspect that if cyclists started being ticketed their behavior might change.

Just like with gun laws, I am 100% for that solution. If enforcing existing laws would improve the situation substantially without the need for additional restrictions, sign me up.

As an addendum, I took my dog for a walk around a local lake today which has "no bicycle" signs up along the path. We saw no fewer than a dozen people riding and one group came flying around a corner three abreast so fast that they almost ran right over my dog. As they whizzed past he could be heard shouting, "Share the <kitten> road!" In a just world, I would have been allowed to let Freyja loose to chase him down and eat his liver.

[BaiHu]

In a just world, I would have been allowed to let Freyja loose to chase him down and eat his liver.

With fava beans and a nice chianti, I presume :p


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Slavex]

In a just world you could've throat punched all 3 Todd.
I'm with JV on this however as I ride for similar reasons, and have ever since I was a kid. Luckily I've had one accident with a vehicle a guy passed me then cut in front of me when I was doing about 60km/hr. I managed to get around him while screaming "you kitten kitten kitten motherkitten etc", hit a picket fence, broke my sternum and impaled my helmet on the fence. Fun. At least he drove me to the hospital. Ever since then I've been even more paranoid while riding, and it's saved me a bunch of times. Out where I live we don't really get much congestion on the roads, however when I got into Vancouver to ride I try to either stay in the bike lane or the carpool lane, but sometimes we have to ride in traffic, and like JV I don't hug the center line, I ride at least a foot or more away from it, if I trusted drivers more, I'd ride closer to the line, but in my experience it's far safer for me to be a slight hindrance to people for a short period of time, than it is for me to play nice and hug the curb. Many moons ago in a hypothetical world I guy I know got cut off by some clown in a 4 door car. His buddy also tossed an apple at this rider, which kind of hurts when they are blowing by you and then swerving in front of you hitting their brakes. At that traffic light, said cyclist employed a trick his ex racer father had taught him. As the light goes green open the rear passenger door. Car speeds through intersection, driver realizes door is open, hits brakes, door folds up over front passenger door. Cyclist takes off on other road...
Pretty sure 25yrs makes it safe to tell that story.

[WDW]

What I want to know is, why don't cyclists have to register their bikes & carry liability insurance? They use public roads, many of which have millions of dollars dumped into them to give them their own lane, and are IMO just as likely as another vehicle to cause an accident.

[JV_]

What I want to know is, why don't cyclists have to register their bikes & carry liability insurance?A homeowners/renters policy may already cover them for liability issues during "sporting" activities, I know many do.

[Slavex]

I have insurance for riding through a local riding organization, costs me $30 a year. We don't pay for roads or their use as the greenies have convinced governments that having more people on bikes will be cheaper on the infrastructure and medical system than if we were in cars. Our wear and tear on the roads is ridiculously small compared to even a motorcycle, even less when compared to an average car. As well we aren't pushing pollution (unless you count the granola gas some of them put out) into the atmosphere, so really, everyone in a car should be getting out and shaking our hands for riding a bike. Even if some of us aren't reducing our use of motor vehicles and are simply out exercising or ogling joggers and rollerbladers (Stanley Park Seawall Vancouver in the summer is especially good for the latter). At least that's what the greenies say.

[Tamara]

I'm convinced. I'm taking the Forester the twelve blocks round trip to get some hot dog buns and a six pack of beer this morning. It's the responsible and, more importantly, American thing to do.

[peterb]

As an addendum, I took my dog for a walk around a local lake today which has "no bicycle" signs up along the path. We saw no fewer than a dozen people riding and one group came flying around a corner three abreast so fast that they almost ran right over my dog. As they whizzed past he could be heard shouting, "Share the <kitten> road!" In a just world, I would have been allowed to let Freyja loose to chase him down and eat his liver.

That's exactly the kind of cyclist I'd like to see being written up by the boys in blue.

I've seen similar incidents on designated bike paths where the walkers were the ones getting angry. If you have an attractive resource, everyone wants to use it. Urban bike paths usually attract walkers and runners and they're even less predictable than cars. It feels safer to be on the road.

[JAD]

I dunno, man. I see a grown man on a bicycle and I think third DUI.

[hufnagel]

That's exactly the kind of cyclist I'd like to see being written up by the boys in blue.

I've seen similar incidents on designated bike paths where the walkers were the ones getting angry. If you have an attractive resource, everyone wants to use it. Urban bike paths usually attract walkers and runners and they're even less predictable than cars. It feels safer to be on the road.

Agreed. Again they're the starbucks rifle carrying crowd, not the rest of us. We hate them as much as you do, if not more since they make our lives harder and more dangerous.

[hufnagel]

I dunno, man. I see a grown man on a bicycle and I think third DUI.

Personally, I love riding. I get off climbing mountains, going fast on the flats, decending like a comet, all that stuff. When you're out there and bombing along either on the flats or up a hill as fast as you can go it feels good. There are times I feel like a GOD. It's a total rush. If you don't get it you don't get it... it's cool with me and everyone else.

[BaiHu]

At the very least, I've learned a lot about the biker/car relationship. Thanks for all of the perspectives.

[cosine]

Personally, I love riding. I get off climbing mountains, going fast on the flats, decending like a comet, all that stuff. When you're out there and bombing along either on the flats or up a hill as fast as you can go it feels good. There are times I feel like a GOD. It's a total rush. If you don't get it you don't get it... it's cool with me and everyone else.

This. I get a rush out of cycling hard that I don't experience from any other form of exercise. It's great.

[hufnagel]

At the very least, I've learned a lot about the biker/car relationship. Thanks for all of the perspectives.

you're local. we should ride sometime. :p

[BaiHu]

you're local. we should ride sometime. :p

Sounds great, I'll drive behind you honking repeatedly until you get the f*&k outta my way ;)

......and then we'll meet at the range where I'll have already shot my P30 and am packing up and saying goodbye to you as you unpack your gear LMAO!!!!

Seriously, PM me for anything but cycling.

[hufnagel]

wimp! :D

today would have been a good day, but I had to babysit the carpet and ceiling tile installers for my basement repairs. (sewer flood. truly, a shitty situation.)

[hufnagel]

since you brought it up, I wonder how you would/could comply with the state laws if you were bicycling and going to a range?

[BaiHu]

I'd imagine separate bags.

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[Tamara]

I dunno, man. I see a grown man on a bicycle and I think third DUI.

Nah, around here that's 49cc scooters.

[ToddG]

Nah, around here that's 49cc scooters.

... and patrol cars.

[JAD]

... and patrol cars.

It turns out if you snigger hard enough, the baby wakes up.