Sig 250

[landsharkleather]

Any one have any experience. With the sig 250? I like the idea of a poly sig. What says the brain trust?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Poly Sig = SP2022 and P290RS (now that the P290 is fixed)

P250 = Failed FAM trials, light hammer strikes, and otherwise POS. Great concept, poorly executed.

[ToddG]

Any one have any experience. With the sig 250?

Given a choice between a P250 and a sharp stick I'd take the sharp stick every time.

[Archimagirus]

Given a choice between a P250 and a sharp stick I'd take the sharp stick every time.

At least if the sharp stick breaks, you still have a sharp stick, only shorter.

[landsharkleather]

Given a choice between a P250 and a sharp stick I'd take the sharp stick every time.

Hey Todd, what is it that you dislike about the 250? Is it not reliable or have some other issues?

[DocGKR]

Look up the ATF trials and the resulting appeal by SIG--the P250 did not fare well...

[ToddG]

I worked at SIG while the P250 was being developed in Germany, then re-engineered in the US, and then first put into preproduction. I gave some of the first SIG P250 demos and was present for the first major agency evaluation of the P250. Based on that, my personal opinion was that the gun had more fleas than it was worth. Also, from a shooting standpoint, I didn't like the full reset necessary between shots.

After I left, the .45-cal version was demo'd to the military as part of a huge procurement (since canceled) and failed so miserably that all the NDAs in the world couldn't stop the news from escaping.

SIG then submitted the P250 for consideration to the ATF service weapon selection. I'm not at liberty to discuss any details but this GAO report is open source (o.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm) and sums things up in a pretty damning way.

The FAMs were the only large agency to adopt the P250. The procurement was not held as an open competition, the guns tested were (by SIG's own admission) prototypes, and all of the testing was done by a select few people who had scuttled an earlier procurement plan trending toward a different brand gun. When the award was announced the uproar from the Air Marshals' training cadre was so significant that a senior FAM executive flew to their facility and held an all-hands meeting in which they were told their opinion was neither needed nor wanted. At least one FAM employee was severely disciplined for publicly expressing his concern over the selection. Then SIG was unable to deliver the guns as promised because they had difficulty going from handmade prototypes to serial production. Once the guns finally began to reach FAMs in the field there were substantial reliability problems. Eventually the problems became so widespread (and so well known) that HQ pulled all of the guns from service and re-issued the decade-old P229's again.

That SIG continues to produce and sell them is absolutely mind-numbing to me. I know quite a few gun shops in this area that refuse to carry them even though they are high volume (and otherwise happy) SIG dealers.

Other than that... no reason.

[Jackdog]

We had 10 Sig 250s at my field office. One for each instructor. 1 went well over 8K rounds with no problems. The other 8 failed before/by round 325. We are talking hammers, triggers, trigger bars breaking; small parts & spring breakage; magazines spontaneously disassembling, dumping rounds, mag spring, follower & floor plate on the ground, leaving the tube in the pistol; Erratic ejection.

[Suvorov]

I like the idea of a poly sig. What says the brain trust?

If you like the idea of a poly Sig, then look at the SP2022. A well made and well respected polymer version of the Sig Classic line. A gun that functions identically to the classic line (unlike the P250) and has found great success with many European police agencies.

My personal gun just went over 2200 rounds without lube or cleaning with no malfunctions or stoppages to report other than the occasional failure to lock back on an empty magazine due to my thumb riding the slide release (a common issue for those who shoot Sig pistols).

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I worked at SIG while the P250 was being developed in Germany, then re-engineered in the US, and then first put into preproduction. I gave some of the first SIG P250 demos and was present for the first major agency evaluation of the P250. Based on that, my personal opinion was that the gun had more fleas than it was worth. Also, from a shooting standpoint, I didn't like the full reset necessary between shots.

After I left, the .45-cal version was demo'd to the military as part of a huge procurement (since canceled) and failed so miserably that all the NDAs in the world couldn't stop the news from escaping.

SIG then submitted the P250 for consideration to the ATF service weapon selection. I'm not at liberty to discuss any details but this GAO report is open source (o.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm) and sums things up in a pretty damning way.

The FAMs were the only large agency to adopt the P250. The procurement was not held as an open competition, the guns tested were (by SIG's own admission) prototypes, and all of the testing was done by a select few people who had scuttled an earlier procurement plan trending toward a different brand gun. When the award was announced the uproar from the Air Marshals' training cadre was so significant that a senior FAM executive flew to their facility and held an all-hands meeting in which they were told their opinion was neither needed nor wanted. At least one FAM employee was severely disciplined for publicly expressing his concern over the selection. Then SIG was unable to deliver the guns as promised because they had difficulty going from handmade prototypes to serial production. Once the guns finally began to reach FAMs in the field there were substantial reliability problems. Eventually the problems became so widespread (and so well known) that HQ pulled all of the guns from service and re-issued the decade-old P229's again.

That SIG continues to produce and sell them is absolutely mind-numbing to me. I know quite a few gun shops in this area that refuse to carry them even though they are high volume (and otherwise happy) SIG dealers.

Other than that... no reason.

So...you don't like the P250?

Because I can't tell...

[landsharkleather]

I worked at SIG while the P250 was being developed in Germany, then re-engineered in the US, and then first put into preproduction. I gave some of the first SIG P250 demos and was present for the first major agency evaluation of the P250. Based on that, my personal opinion was that the gun had more fleas than it was worth. Also, from a shooting standpoint, I didn't like the full reset necessary between shots.

After I left, the .45-cal version was demo'd to the military as part of a huge procurement (since canceled) and failed so miserably that all the NDAs in the world couldn't stop the news from escaping.

SIG then submitted the P250 for consideration to the ATF service weapon selection. I'm not at liberty to discuss any details but this GAO report is open source (o.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm) and sums things up in a pretty damning way.

The FAMs were the only large agency to adopt the P250. The procurement was not held as an open competition, the guns tested were (by SIG's own admission) prototypes, and all of the testing was done by a select few people who had scuttled an earlier procurement plan trending toward a different brand gun. When the award was announced the uproar from the Air Marshals' training cadre was so significant that a senior FAM executive flew to their facility and held an all-hands meeting in which they were told their opinion was neither needed nor wanted. At least one FAM employee was severely disciplined for publicly expressing his concern over the selection. Then SIG was unable to deliver the guns as promised because they had difficulty going from handmade prototypes to serial production. Once the guns finally began to reach FAMs in the field there were substantial reliability problems. Eventually the problems became so widespread (and so well known) that HQ pulled all of the guns from service and re-issued the decade-old P229's again.

That SIG continues to produce and sell them is absolutely mind-numbing to me. I know quite a few gun shops in this area that refuse to carry them even though they are high volume (and otherwise happy) SIG dealers.

Other than that... no reason.

Thanks for the info it to know.

[Dagga Boy]

There was also a very large foreign contract that was cancelled once they got guns and they were miserable failures. I had very high hopes for the guns. I got some early time on them, but like many things in SIG world at the time.....working was optional:mad:.

[Casual Friday]

If you want a polymer SIG, get the SP2022. It's the only handgun that I truly regret selling.

[LSP972]

In 2007, the Sig rep dropped one off at our range for us to "play with it, let me know what you think."

We did; we yawned, and gave it back to him on his next visit. Ingenious concept; poor execution. It was a 9mm "medium" frame example, and while it worked well enough, we didn't run it hard. The trigger was DAK re-visited, and since we were issuing DAK P226Rs at the time... well, the term "lipstick on a pig" came to mind.

This was well before all the spectacular failures.

.

[psalms144.1]

I was an early adopter, and argued for the P250 as a replacement duty gun versus the P229R DAKs we were scheduled to get. This was based on information provided from folks inside SigArms reference the performance and capabilities of the pistol.

My personal example was reasonably but not 100% reliable in the 9mm version, and it was accurate enough - more so than my G19 at least. The trigger was smooth and light enough for decent work, but the ridiculously long reset was very hard to adapt to, compared to the trigger on my issued Glock. Sig insiders told me that they'd finally made a "flat, high capacity revolver," and, if that was the target, I think they did OK. The deal-killer for me was when I FINALLY (after multiple delays) got my .40 S&W "conversion" kit, and the new upper wouldn't feed, fire, extract, or eject more than three times consecutively with our issued ammunition. After two trips back to Exeter with no fix, I sold my copy with full disclosure at a significant loss.

This was all before any of the more widely known failures came to light. Like others, the fact that Sig still markets this POkitten, with all of its known "warts" is one of the reasons why I won't give Sig any of my money anymore. If they gave two hoots about their customers, they wouldn't market such a ridiculous hunk of junk.

Regards,

Kevin

[LSP972]

Like others, the fact that Sig still markets this POkitten, with all of its known "warts" is one of the reasons why I won't give Sig any of my money anymore. If they gave two hoots about their customers, they wouldn't market such a ridiculous hunk of junk.



Well said.

.

[jetfire]

I have a Sig P250 frame that is likely the highest round count P250 in civilian circulation (10,000 rounds of 9mm). I did extensive accuracy and reliability testing on my sample of one, and after shooting it for nearly an entire year (including at Bianchi Cup) I came to the final conclusion that while it would likely be serviceable as a defensive weapon, it is a total soup sandwich from an engineering standpoint and makes no sense whatsoever to purchase when you can get an SP2022 or a really nice knife for the price.

[Dagga Boy]

The idea of a "flat, high capacity revolver" that you could configure to any size of end user, and reconfigure from a tactical pistol down to a sub-compact was "genius" for an issue gun to large groups of non-dedicated end-users. For issue to large military, second and third world police and security agencies, large metropolitan agencies, etc. it was a great idea. The fact that SIG got contracts out of the gate showed the potential. The fact that they could not deliver the QC and actual examples that worked to those agencies that bought them in large numbers based on the promises of the sales reps, was the final nail in the coffin for many of us with SIG. I also know they fired some of those reps like it was "their" fault that the guns they sold (you know....their job) were piles of crap, also soured many who were previously serviced by those sales reps.

Little known secret of the industry. Sales reps are a huge part of end user sales. Good product with a horrible (or no) representation from the factory will get trumped by a great rep with an okay product. There are many great reps who are in the field "fixing" the factory blunders and keeping agencies in guns from their company. In other cases, reps have soiled a company in their areas for years afterwards if they sucked.