38 Super, the other 9mm

[BLR]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/20130928_152246_zps7c0d945b.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/20130928_152246_zps7c0d945b.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/20130928_152149_zps2a52a57e.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/20130928_152149_zps2a52a57e.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/20130928_152136_zpsff3b6623.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/20130928_152136_zpsff3b6623.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/20130928_152124_zpse071ba6d.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/20130928_152124_zpse071ba6d.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/20130928_152106_zps3ad76f35.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/20130928_152106_zps3ad76f35.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/20130928_152035_zps7e0e4ec0.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/20130928_152035_zps7e0e4ec0.jpg.html)

Just scored some 38S "Match" ammo from WC. What better way to test it than a particularly sweet shooting TSG?

The break down: Starline brass, Hornady HAP bullets, unknown powder and primer.

Highest velocity: 1147fps
Lowest velocity: 1121fps
Average velocity: 1132fps (of 10 shots, 10ft from muzzle)

10 shot Ransom Rest Accuracy at 40yrds

Largest group: 2.37"
Smallest group: 1.79"
Average of ten groups: 2.21"

Granted, 1100fps from a 5" 1911 38S isn't exactly screaming. But this was match ammo, not SD ammo.

[Rich]

That's a nice 1911.

My first pistol was a Colt 1911 but in 45acp

Would love to have a high end 1911 in 38super .

[LHS]

There is just something about a .38 Super 1911 that attracts me. One day, I shall have one. And it'll probably have ivory scrimshaw grips, hard chrome finish and a lot of engraving, because that's what .38 Supers are for.

[BLR]

Yeah. If our illustrious forum leader were to give one a try, I'd predict a total convert. It takes all my will power to not degrade into an obsessed Super fan.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[Robinson]

Nice pistol! I recently picked up a Colt 1991 in Super .38 -- I already like it a lot.

[Timbonez]

Bill, do you order 1911s every couple of months so you have a waterfall delivery of them?

[BLR]

I choose to exercise my 5th Amendment rights on this matter.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[Timbonez]

Haha, you exercising those rights answered my question, but I'm not blaming you. I always enjoy your threads on your new 1911s... this one is no different.

[Joe in PNG]

I want this so very much...

[GJM]

I had JoJo's build me up a .38 Super, on a Colt stainless Commander, about 15 years ago, when I had a tear in my wrist, was shooting 1911's and was trying to limit recoil. It ran and shot great. I have a Heinie custom five inch Super, that has just a few hundred rounds thru it since new, I got at the same time. I really like the caliber, especially out west in open areas where reach out is desirable.

[Tamara]

I really liked my .38 Supers and it's a neat round, but I'll put on my Amazing Karnak Hat and predict that our "illustrious forum leader" won't be an "obsessed fan" for the same reason he's not carrying a .357SIG.

It's the same reason I'm not carrying a .38 Super, either. The numbers look good on a spreadsheet, but there's no real-world proof (which is to say the difference between "theory" and "engineering") that there's enough terminal difference to make up for the real world difference in availability and price.

Although having one does show how hip you are! *dons Lennon glasses and beret; snaps fingers ironically, daddy-o...*

(In a different world, where there were ~147gr projectiles specifically engineered to function at ~1200fps? I might still be a hipster...)

[GJM]

Darn, getting practical again.

Kidding aside, other than a Super for reaching out to coyotes, and 9 for training, I wouldn't carry any 1911 except in .45, or 10mm for around creatures.

[Tamara]

Darn, getting practical again.

Kidding aside, other than a Super for reaching out to coyotes, and 9 for training, I wouldn't carry any 1911 except in .45, or 10mm for around creatures.

Despite Todd proving my prejudices were all wet and flying in the face of all evidence, I still won't carry a 1911 for realz that wants a spacer in the mag. If I gotta carry a 1911 and it can't be a .45, it'll be a 10mm or a 9x23/Super.

[will_1400]

I really liked my .38 Supers and it's a neat round, but I'll put on my Amazing Karnak Hat and predict that our "illustrious forum leader" won't be an "obsessed fan" for the same reason he's not carrying a .357SIG.

It's the same reason I'm not carrying a .38 Super, either. The numbers look good on a spreadsheet, but there's no real-world proof (which is to say the difference between "theory" and "engineering") that there's enough terminal difference to make up for the real world difference in availability and price.

Although having one does show how hip you are! *dons Lennon glasses and beret; snaps fingers ironically, daddy-o...*

(In a different world, where there were ~147gr projectiles specifically engineered to function at ~1200fps? I might still be a hipster...)


I recall you saying something about a Glock 21 converted to .38 Super with 158gr JHPs tooling along at 1200 fps a few months back...;)

[ToddG]

If a major company came along and produced both practice and good JHP defensive ammo, 9x23 would be my next gun in quantity and at a price that made it reasonable, I'd be all over it. Until then, 9x19 is for me.

http://9x19mm.com

[will_1400]

If a major company came along and produced both practice and good JHP defensive ammo, 9x23 would be my next gun in quantity and at a price that made it reasonable, I'd be all over it. Until then, 9x19 is for me.

http://9x19mm.com

Todd, that link goes right back to the homepage here, not the old Calibers site as an FYI.

[BLR]

I really liked my .38 Supers and it's a neat round, but I'll put on my Amazing Karnak Hat and predict that our "illustrious forum leader" won't be an "obsessed fan" for the same reason he's not carrying a .357SIG.

It's the same reason I'm not carrying a .38 Super, either. The numbers look good on a spreadsheet, but there's no real-world proof (which is to say the difference between "theory" and "engineering") that there's enough terminal difference to make up for the real world difference in availability and price.

Although having one does show how hip you are! *dons Lennon glasses and beret; snaps fingers ironically, daddy-o...*

(In a different world, where there were ~147gr projectiles specifically engineered to function at ~1200fps? I might still be a hipster...)

Sigh. Normies.

*It should be pointed out, this fits nicely with my gun fantasies. Which don't involve malls, AKs, and Tangos. Rather, they involve border towns, cantinas, pretty Mexican senoritas, and good tequila.

[Tamara]

*It should be pointed out, this fits nicely with my gun fantasies. Which don't involve malls, AKs, and Tangos. Rather, they involve border towns, cantinas, pretty Mexican senoritas, and good tequila.

When I was spending a week down in Terlingua (at the birthday party of the guy who got Chip McCormick into USPSA), I carried a blued Colt in .38 Super. With Ahrend's Cordia wood grip panels. When I wasn't carrying my Smith 544...

(First time I ever heard "Gringo Pistolero" live. Alan Wayne Damron was strumming the guitar across the table from me in the bar. :D )

[BLR]

I had JoJo's build me up a .38 Super, on a Colt stainless Commander, about 15 years ago, when I had a tear in my wrist, was shooting 1911's and was trying to limit recoil. It ran and shot great. I have a Heinie custom five inch Super, that has just a few hundred rounds thru it since new, I got at the same time. I really like the caliber, especially out west in open areas where reach out is desirable.

We need to share thoughts on the "Top Ten" 1911 shops one day.

[BLR]

When I was spending a week down in Terlingua (at the birthday party of the guy who got Chip McCormick into USPSA), I carried a blued Colt in .38 Super. With Ahrend's Cordia wood grip panels. When I wasn't carrying my Smith 544...

:cool:

I have a couple pre war Colt "Super 38" guns that I'm trying to figure out what to do with. Ones an NM...with the box :D

[ToddG]

Todd, that link goes right back to the homepage here, not the old Calibers site as an FYI.

Yup, that's on purpose. But thanks!

[dbateman]

Yeah. If our illustrious forum leader were to give one a try,I'd predict a total convert. It takes all my will power to not degrade into an obsessed Super fan.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

It's too late for me, I'm there already.

[NETim]

Sigh. Normies.

*It should be pointed out, this fits nicely with my gun fantasies. Which don't involve malls, AKs, and Tangos. Rather, they involve border towns, cantinas, pretty Mexican senoritas, and good tequila.

Romantic. :)

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:EP-ColtCommander-5.jpg

[Corey]

The first centerfire pistol I shot regularly as a kid was my dad's Browning BDA in .38 Super. He still has it only because I haven't convinced him to give it too me. I currently have a pair of Colt's in .38S, a Government and a Commander. The Governemnt is my wife's favorite pistol, but since she is an import from down south that makes sense.

My brother picked up a 1947 Colt in .38S with a Colt Ace .22 conversion kit a couple of years ago. It came with the original sales receipt from a store in Texas that show the gun and conversion kit were originally sold together. He is on the wait list to have Ted Yost at Heirloom Precision make them pretty.

So yeah, .38 Super has been popular in my family since before it was cool, you hipster posers:p

I just wish there was good SD ammo available for it, all I can find in my area are silvertips and they are way expensive.

[NETim]

http://frontiernet.net/~netim/benteen.jpg

[Tamara]

http://frontiernet.net/~netim/benteen.jpg

One of my favorite popcorn movies. (Don't tell anybody.)

[klewis]

Not trying to cost anyone money, but there's this:
http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/corbon/dpx/dpx38x125-20
and it does this:
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.357SIG_125gr_TAC-XP.pdf

While not 147gr, and I'm not a huge Corbon fan, it's something if you end up there.

[JHC]

There is just something about a .38 Super 1911 that attracts me. One day, I shall have one. And it'll probably have ivory scrimshaw grips, hard chrome finish and a lot of engraving, because that's what .38 Supers are for.

Exactly!!! Border style. On my list too.

[JHC]

(First time I ever heard "Gringo Pistolero" live. Alan Wayne Damron was strumming the guitar across the table from me in the bar. :D )

AWESOME! I watched him perform it at an event in San Antonio many years ago; close but not THAT close. It's avail on iTunes.

[dbateman]

I just wish there was good SD ammo available for it, all I can find in my area are silvertips and they are way expensive.

What about rolling your own ? 38Super will safely push 125gr to 1500fps or more thats nothing to be sneezed at.

[ToddG]

What about rolling your own ? 38Super will safely push 125gr to 1500fps or more thats nothing to be sneezed at.

The issue is what happens to the bullet when it strikes a fluid medium at that velocity? Most bullets will come apart before they've penetrated very far and more robust projectiles (like Gold Dots) tend to over-expand and fold in on themselves becoming essentially slightly super-caliber FMJs.

And since I doubt DocGKR is planning to invest in a .38S/9x23 test platform anytime soon we probably won't get any good data along those lines.

If I were going to select .38S/9x23 I'd probably look to buy 357 SIG projectiles (most likely Gold Dots) and push them to right around the same velocity as they'd see coming out of a 357 pistol. While a 125 @ 1350 might be below the raw capability of the cartridge, it's likely nothing to sneeze at.

[dbateman]

The issue is what happens to the bullet when it strikes a fluid medium at that velocity? Most bullets will come apart before they've penetrated very far and more robust projectiles (like Gold Dots) tend to over-expand and fold in on themselves becoming essentially slightly super-caliber FMJs.

And since I doubt DocGKR is planning to invest in a .38S/9x23 test platform anytime soon we probably won't get any good data along those lines.

If I were going to select .38S/9x23 I'd probably look to buy 357 SIG projectiles (most likely Gold Dots) and push them to right around the same velocity as they'd see coming out of a 357 pistol. While a 125 @ 1350 might be below the raw capability of the cartridge, it's likely nothing to sneeze at.

My only experience with shooting living things with the 38Super is hunting in NT Australia back when we could hunt with a handgun at the time I had access to 38spl +p, 357mag and 45acp the little Super was my favourite but I have never used hollow points or soft points.

The projectiles I used where ether FMJ or cast lead ball both seemed to do what I asked on pigs, dogs/dingos, donkeys/horses and the like bear in mind that most shots where well inside twenty yards, I think for stopping animals it was pretty good choice it seemed to penetrate deep enough and get into where it needed to be. It would be good to see what it would do with a good hollow point on light thin skinned game.

I agree that 125gr doing 1350fps is nothing to be sneezed at and wile you can push the same bullet to 1500+fps it starts getting to be a hand full, or maybe I just need to learn to drive my pistol better ?

I really like the 38Super and think it's a bit of an under rated round.

[Corey]

The issue is what happens to the bullet when it strikes a fluid medium at that velocity? Most bullets will come apart before they've penetrated very far and more robust projectiles (like Gold Dots) tend to over-expand and fold in on themselves becoming essentially slightly super-caliber FMJs.

And since I doubt DocGKR is planning to invest in a .38S/9x23 test platform anytime soon we probably won't get any good data along those lines.

If I were going to select .38S/9x23 I'd probably look to buy 357 SIG projectiles (most likely Gold Dots) and push them to right around the same velocity as they'd see coming out of a 357 pistol. While a 125 @ 1350 might be below the raw capability of the cartridge, it's likely nothing to sneeze at.

What he said. Plus, I have read a lot of the reliability/liability debates regarding using Handloads for carry and decided I just feel better carrying factory ammo even though I handload ridiculous amounts of practice ammo without any problems.

[NETim]

One of my favorite popcorn movies. (Don't tell anybody.)

Yeah, this is a fav for the cast alone. Not one of Milius' better efforts but still an entertaining flick.

Rip Torn as a Texas Sheriff? Can it get any better than that? :)

[LHS]

Exactly!!! Border style. On my list too.

And of course, it'll have to be carried in an El Paso Tom Threepersons holster.

[BLR]

You guys saying you're down for a "salsa and tequila" KTSG? That'd be awesome. Supers or Smiths only.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[NickA]

I saw like, 10 whole boxes of 9x23 at an Academy the other day, if Todd wants to get started :p. I assume somebody just ordered everything that started with "9x" and they finally came in.
My buddy also has 2 or 3 Caspian 38 Super 1911 frames and slides that have never been assembled; if I had money to burn...

[Tamara]

I saw like, 10 whole boxes of 9x23 at an Academy the other day, if Todd wants to get started :p. I assume somebody just ordered everything that started with "9x" and they finally came in.

I've still got a few hundred rounds of .38 Auto and I think I've got a box of 9x23 JHP, but I'm pretty sure I gave my roomie all my remaining .38 Super for her pre-Series 70 Colt.

[LHS]

You guys saying you're down for a "salsa and tequila" KTSG? That'd be awesome. Supers or Smiths only.


I'm yer huckleberry.

[Tamara]

Yeah, this is a fav for the cast alone. Not one of Milius' better efforts but still an entertaining flick.

Rip Torn as a Texas Sheriff? Can it get any better than that? :)

Early Hollywood appearances of the AUG and Deagle, too. It's an epic gun nerd flick, even if Hollywood hadn't yet discovered realism in gun-handling yet. It'd make a good Saturday night double feature with Way Of The Gun.

(...and, hey, a 9mm Commander stood in for Joaquim's .45 for most of the shooting scenes in the movie.)

[NETim]

Early Hollywood appearances of the AUG and Deagle, too. It's an epic gun nerd flick, even if Hollywood hadn't yet discovered realism in gun-handling yet. It'd make a good Saturday night double feature with Way Of The Gun.

(...and, hey, a 9mm Commander stood in for Joaquim's .45 for most of the shooting scenes in the movie.)

Which is precisely why Benteen didn't kill every mofo with just one shot. :)

Or perhaps it's simply 'cause 45's don't work so well with blanks.

[LHS]

Early Hollywood appearances of the AUG and Deagle, too. It's an epic gun nerd flick, even if Hollywood hadn't yet discovered realism in gun-handling yet. It'd make a good Saturday night double feature with Way Of The Gun.

(...and, hey, a 9mm Commander stood in for Joaquim's .45 for most of the shooting scenes in the movie.)

My favorite epic gun nerd flick is still "The Wild Geese."

[Dagga Boy]

Finally, a conversation about great movies ;).

I saw the title of this thread and thought ".38 Super......the real .357 SIG". I have always wanted a .38 Super, and just never found the right deal or gun at the right time. Like .357 Sig, it does a couple of things well, but unlike .357 SIG, doesn't come with the "issues". With many states restrictive magazine laws, a .38 Super 1911 is something that has potential. Especially since many of those places also have very "automobile" based cultures.

[Tamara]

I wonder how many 1900s, 1902s, and 1903s have been wrecked by .38 Super over the years?

I wonder how many people have made the discovery that, thanks to the semi-rimmed case, they can fire .38 Super in a .357 revolver with safety margin to spare? (Not that there's any reason to do so outside of a zombie apocalypse, but there you go.)

[Chuck Haggard]

I wonder how many 1900s, 1902s, and 1903s have been wrecked by .38 Super over the years?

I wonder how many people have made the discovery that, thanks to the semi-rimmed case, they can fire .38 Super in a .357 revolver with safety margin to spare? (Not that there's any reason to do so outside of a zombie apocalypse, but there you go.)

Super shoots rather well from a variety of .38 revolvers, or chambers at least....

I once responded to the aftermath of a break top H&R being run with .38 Super ammo, the piece converted from a handgun to a hand grenade on the third shot. I got sent to a gunshots call, found a blown up gun in the street, a blood trail leaving the area, and a parked car with three bullet holes in it, two live rounds sorta left in the gun.

[Dagga Boy]

I wonder how many 1900s, 1902s, and 1903s have been wrecked by .38 Super over the years?

I wonder how many people have made the discovery that, thanks to the semi-rimmed case, they can fire .38 Super in a .357 revolver with safety margin to spare? (Not that there's any reason to do so outside of a zombie apocalypse, but there you go.)

Had a customer back in the late 80's who worked for a government agency and travelled armed all over the world. He had a bad ass Ruger Speed Six snub that a local gunsmith had converted to shoot an amazing amount of different rounds. While he could carry in foreign countries with his job, he still had to comply with some of the local laws, and wanted to be able to shoot what was available. Italy was apparently very uptight about calibers. Equally, he worked extensively with the US military so it would shoot 9mm with moon clips as well. It was the same guy I bought my first ASP from with all the super cool Ken Null leather.

[will_1400]

I'll be honest here. The gun nerd in me demands that I own 4 1911s: three in .45 ACP (one GI, one to learn how to do my own smithing on, and one to send to Jason Burton to be made into a piece of art) and one in .38 Super. Having touched off 5 mags of .38 Super thanks to a good friend of mine, I'm pretty hooked on the 1911/.38 Super combo for "just because".

[WilsonCombatRep]

I love all this .38 super chatter. Its a fun cartridge.

It is NOT the most inherently reliable single stack 1911 cartridge. The Rimless .38 Super (ala TJ or 38 Supercomp) is more reliable in a 1911. Even more so than 9x23. The 38 Super's semi rim just gets in the damn way. When you try and increase magazine spring tension (necessary for hot rodded rounds) the drag on the semi rim is considerable and it can cause nose-down FTF. Like most 1911 rounds it is very bullet profile/OAL sensitive also.
This is one reason .38 Super "stock" mags have such light springs.

The .38 Super earned its reliability bones in a 1911 with a round nose FMJ bullet or a Lead 140-160 grain IPSC load.

A very cool combat handgun would be a CZ-75 or P-35 made out of quality materials chambered in rimless 38 Super. Capacity, you know.

[ToddG]

A very cool combat handgun would be a CZ-75 or P-35 made out of quality materials chambered in rimless 38 Super. Capacity, you know.

You're saying Wilson Combat will be introducing this gun at SHOT in a few months? Awesome! I have to put that up on my blog right away!

[JAD]

There's a box of supercomp brass under my bench. Someday, I shall turn it into cartridges and see if it likes my existing extractor, I guess.

[WilsonCombatRep]

You're saying Wilson Combat will be introducing this gun at SHOT in a few months? Awesome! I have to put that up on my blog right away!

BLR and I will have to start our own company for that one.

[Tamara]

BLR and I will have to start our own company for that one.

Make sure you offer it in 10mm too; that seems to guarantee market success for CZ clones. ;)

[BLR]

Make sure you offer it in 10mm too; that seems to guarantee market success for CZ clones. ;)

Vltor broke my heart. That's all I'll say on this matter. :( :( :(

[Tamara]

Vltor broke my heart. That's all I'll say on this matter. :(:(:(

Just call me Debbie Downer! :D

[BLR]

Yeah. I has a serious sad right now.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[GardoneVT]

Vltor broke my heart. That's all I'll say on this matter. :( :( :(

We should be glad Vltor gave up, instead of releasing junk and REEEALLLY breaking people's hearts. Just think of how you'd feel if your Vltor 10mm cracked the frame after Round #1500.

[NEPAKevin]

Saw this ad for a "first run" Colt 38 Super (http://forum.pafoa.org/firearms-6/234560-commercial-colt-super-38-year-one-production-1929-a.html) and thought it might be of interest.

[ToddG]

Just as a datapoint for anyone interested: got my ammo quote from ATK and on a lark asked about .38 Super. It's 72% more expensive than a comparable 9mm load.

[John Ralston]

and on a lark...


How old are you?

[ToddG]

How old are you?

Older than any lark.

[BLR]

Muhwahahahahahahaha

You're thinking about it! :D

[ToddG]

You're thinking about it! :D

Not at 170% ammo cost, I'm not.

[BLR]

You don't need to hide it from me.

I totally understand Super lust.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[awmp]

Just to add some pictures, my two Colt 38 Supers, both are used for CCW with Wilson HP ammo ( http://shopwilsoncombat.com/38-Super-P-124-gr-Hornady-XTP-1335-FPS-5-Barrel-20_Box/productinfo/A38SU-124-XTP/ )

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k312/awmp2006/colt38superb_zpsada62207.jpeg (http://s91.photobucket.com/user/awmp2006/media/colt38superb_zpsada62207.jpeg.html)

[HCM]

Just to add some pictures, my two Colt 38 Supers, both are used for CCW with Wilson HP ammo ( http://shopwilsoncombat.com/38-Super-P-124-gr-Hornady-XTP-1335-FPS-5-Barrel-20_Box/productinfo/A38SU-124-XTP/ )

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k312/awmp2006/colt38superb_zpsada62207.jpeg (http://s91.photobucket.com/user/awmp2006/media/colt38superb_zpsada62207.jpeg.html)

Nice- where did you get the Texas seal grips?

[awmp]

Got the Texas Conchos (found them on a trip in New Mexico but they are also on line)

Then bought the grips and had them done. I have refinished them once and need to do the final coat.


Nice- where did you get the Texas seal grips?