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View Full Version : POA vs POI on a heeling issue...



BaiHu
05-22-2011, 10:46 PM
First I'd like to thank everyone on this forum for all the knowledge I've already received. I learned about this forum through the guys at HKPro.

With that out of the way, I need some help.

I shoot RH.
I have a proper 2Handed high grip in isosceles with a straight back posture according to my instructor. I have recently come up from a rolled shoulders and head forward posture that might have coincided with my heeling issue.
I shoot FNP45, CZ 75 in 9mm and 40, HK45, HK P30L 9mm (the current gun I'm focusing on w/ this problem)
I'm practicing in slow fire mode in DA first and then SA second for 6 round/mag on 4 mags.

Here's my problem (with all of my pistols now):

I have recently acquired (past 2 months) an issue that has been diagnosed as heeling. I've diagnosed it, an instructor has diagnosed it and JodyH has seen it via the HK forum on video/pictures, but there is a new twist.

I've been working on it for the last 1000 rds over the past 4 weeks and today I noticed that when I was doing a 3x5 card drill at 30 feet, that I was hitting the card when my POA was at lollipop, but when my POA was at the center of the card, I would graze the top of the card.

My consistent issue seems to be about 1-2 inches high and no one can 'catch' me in the act of heeling-even with ball/dummy drills, bench rest, etc. Before I declare this just a unique way that I shoot, I'd like your advice.

The two pictures you're looking at were shot 6 rds per card starting upper left to upper right and then lower left to lower right all off hand.

The first picture, you can see that most of my shots are just above the card and by the fourth card, I'm getting them all on the card although very high.

The second picture, you can see that I'm getting better/consistent with hitting the card as I edge my POA to a lollipop versus the typical cover that HKs seem to 'require'.

Almost forgot: there is an extra round in the 1st and 3rd card b/c there were 2 rds left in the box, so I did DA up top and SA on the bottom.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and thanks again for all this forum and its inhabitants do for the shooting community.

http://s739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/djdemarco/?action=view&current=3x51stRd.jpg

http://s739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/djdemarco/?action=view&current=3x52ndRd.jpg

YVK
05-23-2011, 01:15 AM
My consistent issue seems to be about 1-2 inches high and no one can 'catch' me in the act of heeling-even with ball/dummy drills, bench rest, etc.




If nobody can catch you, then how do they know you're heeling?

The real experts will come and chime in soon. What I understand about heeling is that it is a type of anticipation. There is no better way to at least diagnose, and maybe treat anticipation than ball and dummy at slow pace.

I personally would want to be absolutely sure you are heeling. I'd bring the target closer (21-24) and I'd shoot it at very slow pace, with your softest shooting pistol, in SA mode, B/D drill, with experienced instructor watching. If you're still hitting high and nobody sees barrel go up before dummy shots, I'd be very skeptical about heeling as a diagnosis here. There is a large number of other reasons why people shoot high systematically.

ToddG
05-23-2011, 07:56 AM
I've been working on it for the last 1000 rds over the past 4 weeks and today I noticed that when I was doing a 3x5 card drill at 30 feet, that I was hitting the card when my POA was at lollipop, but when my POA was at the center of the card, I would graze the top of the card.

Can you explain "lollipop" to me?

If what you're saying is, "When I put my front sight higher on the target my shots go higher," I'd say that is the expected result, no?

JM Campbell
05-23-2011, 08:55 AM
If he is refering to "lollipop" like in rifle sights, the target is above the front sight. The sight is the stick, target is the pop. So if this assumption is right he should be shooting low.

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 09:04 AM
Thanks for the replies folks.

When I mean no one can catch me, I mean even the few times I fail ball/dummy, it is a dip or a wobble, not a rise. The instructor thought that my heeling my only be occurring in the midst of the recoil.

I consistently have POIs higher than my POA. Meaning, with HK, usually a 'cover the bulls eye' technique should put you on the bulls eye. Now when I do that, my POIs are 1-2 inches higher than my intended POA.

So I switched my POA to a 'lollipop' or 6 o'clock hold yesterday. My sight alignment is right at the BOTTOM edge of the index card now and you can see the results in the 4th card of the second picture. Compare this with a POA of right smack in the middle of a card for a middle POI.

It is my understanding, especially with HKs, that my POA should be a 'cover the bulls eye' sight alignment for POIs on the bulls eye, but when I do that, no matter my pistol, no matter the distance, I'm getting POIs at 1-2 inches too high.

For some perspective, I used to be more accurate, but less consistent. Meaning, my groups were loose, but I would hit the bulls eye more often. Now I have much better groups, but I can only seem to put that group at 1-2 inches above the bull. Obviously this drill was more of an experiment for me and I didn't bother making a mark on the cards, I just wanted to edge my POA down on each card.

Hope that makes sense and thanks.

mnealtx
05-23-2011, 09:06 AM
Have you tried shooting off a rest, and do you get the same results?

JV_
05-23-2011, 09:06 AM
Have you tried shooting the gun from a rest / sand bag?

ToddG
05-23-2011, 09:09 AM
When you are aiming at the bottom edge of the card, is your aiming point the dot or the top edge of the front sight? In other words, what exactly is aiming at the bottom edge of the card?

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 09:10 AM
Have you tried shooting the gun from a rest / sand bag?

Yes, I have, but possibly not enough. I had the same higher POI for a center hold or 'cover the bulls eye' with the front sight hold (those are the same holds to me, btw-LOL).

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 09:12 AM
When you are aiming at the bottom edge of the card, is your aiming point the dot or the top edge of the front sight? In other words, what exactly is aiming at the bottom edge of the card?

AWESOME question-I've never had anyone ask me that. The top edge of my iron sights are at the bottom of the card (6 o'clock hold), but I'm off hand, so it probably waivers to the front sight dot being at that edge.

ToddG
05-23-2011, 09:16 AM
This gets back to the sandbag thing.

Get a good solid rest position, choose a consistent aiming reference (edge or dot), choose a consistent aiming point, and fire some groups. Ideally, fire some groups with all double action trigger pulls and some with all single action.

JV_
05-23-2011, 09:16 AM
I had the same higher POI for a center hold or 'cover the bulls eye' with the front sight hold

Just to clarify, you would call this a center hold - correct:

http://www.heinie.com/userfiles/image/s8big2.JPG

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 09:19 AM
This gets back to the sandbag thing.

Get a good solid rest position, choose a consistent aiming reference (edge or dot), choose a consistent aiming point, and fire some groups. Ideally, fire some groups with all double action trigger pulls and some with all single action.

Great! I'll do the same 4 card drill today. 24 rds at center hold from bench and 24 rds at 6 o'clock and I'll shorten the distance to 5 yds and post my results later tonight.

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 09:21 AM
Just to clarify, you would call this a center hold - correct:

Yes, but when I say 'cover the bull', I am just 1/2 a notch higher covering the bull completely by my front sight.

mnealtx
05-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Yes, but when I say 'cover the bull', I am just 1/2 a notch higher covering the bull completely by my front sight.

So you're using the same sight alignment as shown in his illustration, but covering the bull with the dot in the front sight, correct?

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 10:24 AM
So you're using the same sight alignment as shown in his illustration, but covering the bull with the dot in the front sight, correct?

Yes, that is correct.

mnealtx
05-23-2011, 10:31 AM
Yes, that is correct.

Ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't like the second photo on this page (http://brasstard.com/2009/12/23/pistol-sighting-101-aimed-shooting/).

Couple more questions I hadn't seen asked - is the gun stock? No replacement sights or barrel?

I'm looking forward to seeing the results from the shots off the rest - please come back and let us know how it goes.

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 10:51 AM
Ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't like the second photo on this page (http://brasstard.com/2009/12/23/pistol-sighting-101-aimed-shooting/).

Couple more questions I hadn't seen asked - is the gun stock? No replacement sights or barrel?

I'm looking forward to seeing the results from the shots off the rest - please come back and let us know how it goes.

The gun is stock and my back strap and side straps are all small and I will do my best to get to the range after work today and post tonight. I will do 24 rounds in DA and 24 in SA with the same 4 card set up from bench rest, but I'll halve the distance to about 15 feet.

JHC
05-23-2011, 12:11 PM
AWESOME question-I've never had anyone ask me that. The top edge of my iron sights are at the bottom of the card (6 o'clock hold), but I'm off hand, so it probably waivers to the front sight dot being at that edge.

Once I get to 15 yards and beyond, that's how I typically have to hold when using .215 tall Warren sights with the Warren rears. And at 25yds my shots are often just clipping the top of the 3x5. I like 5x7cards better. ;)

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 06:21 PM
Here are the three pictures with details as to distance SA or DA and POA and POI will be obvious.

First two photos are bench rest and the last photo were just the last 2 rds in the box fired off hand in DA and then SA.

Thanks for all/any input.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/djdemarco/BenchRest1.jpg

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/djdemarco/BenchRest2.jpg

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/djdemarco/OffHand1.jpg

BH

JodyH
05-23-2011, 08:44 PM
I have recently acquired (past 2 months) an issue that has been diagnosed as heeling. I've diagnosed it, an instructor has diagnosed it and JodyH has seen it via the HK forum
I still think your problem is probably sight alignment, follow through and trigger control rather than a grip issue like heeling.

double-Tapatalk

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 09:19 PM
I still think your problem is probably sight alignment, follow through and trigger control rather than a grip issue like heeling.

double-Tapatalk

My mistake, JodyH, you've seen my problem, but I forgot what you said was wrong.
Is my sight alignment too shaky?
My follow through could use more focus.
My dry fire and ball/dummy seem to be doing well, I've even been working with a penny on my front sight with success in DA and SA.

I need to get to one of these classes, but I'm still too much of a noob to qualify for one, but I'm trying...

BH

virginiatactical
05-23-2011, 10:14 PM
I have read this thread quite thoroughly, and I might know what the issue is. Of course this is just by reading your thread. In order to properly correct the issue I would do a few things ... but here goes my input.

1) There is a large possibility that the ammunition that you are using shoots higher on your stock sights. I am looking at your groups and they are decent sized groups. You are very consistent. What type of ammo are you using?

1R (reason). If you change from a 115gr 9mm shooting at 1200 fps to a 124gr 9mm shooting at 1100 you will often see the group rise. For my best POA/POI in my M&P9s I have custom made my load .. 124gr CMJS shooting at 1045 fps. They are balls accurate for my 5inch barrels. Have you tried a different round? What are you shooting?

2) Though a 3x5 card at 10 yds is a onerous target for most people, your groups tell me you would not have a cumbersome task by taking your distance further. What do your groups look like at 25 yards? If you have a 2 inch rise at at 10yds, your aberration should spread exponentially at 25 yards. I have had a similar problem when I first procured my first M&P. It shot 2 inches low (backwards of your dilemma), and it was not my marksmanship issues that were at fault, but my front sight issues. My sight was too low, and needed to be raised to a .195 hieght shooting my duty ammo (A363).

2R) Depending on your POA/POI at 25 yards this would help define if you are indeed heeling or actually just need a lower front sight. Of course if changing your ammo fixes this then there is no need to change your sight, but if you are sitting on 5,000 rounds of A363 .. you might consider purchasing a sight that will match that ammo.

3) It is in my experience that "heeling" is often seen at slow fire, but not so much at a sustained rate of fire. Of course this will depend on your skill level, but when you draw and engage your "target" with two rounds under a time limit (once again the speed depends on your skill level and level of training), do you also see your groups higher or are they at POA/POI?

3A: What is your average splits between shots?

3B: What is your draw time?

3R) If your shots are indeed POA/POI with a reasonable time frame on splits (.25) at 7 yards then this would further enforce that your front sight might be too hight. If not then this would lead me to believe that you are indeed heeling.

I hope this helps, but if there is any confusing please let me know and I will explain it to the best of my abilities.

Good Luck!

BaiHu
05-23-2011, 10:35 PM
Thanks for all of your input. I'll do my best to address all of your thoughts.



1) There is a large possibility that the ammunition that you are using shoots higher on your stock sights. I am looking at your groups and they are decent sized groups. You are very consistent. What type of ammo are you using?

PMC 115gr, but I did break the P30L in with Fed 124gr and I haven't pulled it out lately-good thought and perhaps this weekend I'll get a chance to run this drill again with 124.



2) Though a 3x5 card at 10 yds is a onerous target for most people, your groups tell me you would not have a cumbersome task by taking your distance further. What do your groups look like at 25 yards?

Earlier in the thread you'll see my 30 ft, but I haven't had the confidence to go out to 25 yds yet since this problem set in. Again, maybe I'll try this weekend.



3) It is in my experience that "heeling" is often seen at slow fire, but not so much at a sustained rate of fire. Of course this will depend on your skill level, but when you draw and engage your "target" with two rounds under a time limit (once again the speed depends on your skill level and level of training), do you also see your groups higher or are they at POA/POI?

Here's a large part of my dilemma:
a) I'm not LEO.
b) I live in the Commie Repulic of New Jerseystan.
c) I am in a club that doesn't allow draw and fire, but I can do quick fire if no one's around, but I have very little experience doing that outside of some metal/tactical targets at 5-7 yds.
d) The remainder of your questions end up being moot. I have no clock and no ability to try this until I get involved in a group.

Thanks,
BH

ToddG
05-24-2011, 10:31 AM
You've indicated where your point of aim is, but is that where you're putting the top edge of the front sight or where you're putting the dot?

Regardless of whether you're using the edge or dot, is the top edge of the front sight in perfect alignment with the top edge of the rear shot when you break your shot?

BaiHu
05-24-2011, 10:53 AM
You've indicated where your point of aim is, but is that where you're putting the top edge of the front sight or where you're putting the dot?

Regardless of whether you're using the edge or dot, is the top edge of the front sight in perfect alignment with the top edge of the rear shot when you break your shot?

I'm lining up the front and rear sights so that the edge meets my POA.

As to your second question, just b/c I can pass the ball/dummy, and have a penny stay still on my front sight when I work my dry fire doesn't mean I'm so perfectly steady when I'm shooting 'live'.

I'm assuming that they are in perfect alignment, but you know what they say about assuming. I know my follow through could use some work, b/c I often find myself looking beyond my sights to see the outcome of the shot and then quickly return to the front sight.

Hope that clarifies.