High round count Sigs

[Blayglock]

Anyone here have a high round count Sig? I recently picked up a lightly used W. German p226 and was wondering about the service life of these? I've seen mixed reviews.

[Odin Bravo One]

I am on my 3rd 226, and it is now pushing the 75,000 round mark. Both of the previous versions, one being a W. German, went over 100k. I found out later in life that they probably would have gone longer, especially the older ones with roll pins, by replacing the roll pins and springs at regular intervals instead of just replacing parts when they break.

[John Hearne]

9mm Sigs tend to run forever. I've heard mixed reviews of 40 & 357 Sig's - mostly good with most FAM guns going 30,000 with just minor bobbles.

The real problem with Sigs is recently manufactured guns and the 45's. In order to compete with cheap plastic pistols, Sig has cut a lot corners, particularly in small parts. The quality that was once there is no more. Nothing you'd typically notice in 2,500 rounds but stuff that shows up in high round count guns.

45 Sigs break takedown levers - at least the "normal" ones. With more recently manufactured P220's I've broken locking blocks as well. Sig 45's with a stainless slide and the internal extractors have problems as well. That extractor design is very sensitive to heat treating and no third party vendor has gotten it right for a long time. Supposedly, Bruce Gray has a new part that solves the problem.

FWIW, my first Sig P220 went ~23,000 rounds - I broke springs that weren't replaced at the proper intervals and a takedown lever at ~18,000. My next P220, an early ST model ran great for approx ~10,000 rounds. The next P220 ST broke a takedown lever at ~12,000. It also broke a hammer strut shortly after that and a locking block a bit later. My next P220ST has broken a locking block, the frame reinforcement "tab," and a takedown lever. As best I can estimate, this takedown lever failed at 8,000 rounds. Anybody else noticing a shorter and shorter time to failure?

[ToddG]

No, but in my experience the takedown levers fail earlier on the steel framed guns. I think they get battered harder because there is no ability for the frame to flex. When I started shooting SIGs I gravitated toward the steel frame because I thought it would (a) be more durable and (b) be easier to shoot fast. Neither proved true.

[Blayglock]

Thanks for the info

[Chieftain]

I found out later in life that they probably would have gone longer, especially the older ones with roll pins, by replacing the roll pins and springs at regular intervals instead of just replacing parts when they break.

BINGO!

My last carry SIG 228 (which is about 17 years old) had around 37,500 rounds through it. Still shoots great Unfortunately my arthritis forced me back to Single action type handguns.

Gun maintenance is a very much neglected function at this time in history. AS an old Marine DI I sometimes just vibrate at the dirty guns I see folks shooting. Then they wonder why, when their guns begin to hiccup.

I Convinced my shooting buddy to clean his guns, Glocks, at least weekly, (we shoot 2 -3 matches a week) and to change his springs on schedule. He hasn't had a FTF since he started about a year and a half ago. He used to have one or two a month.

This issue is the basic reason most folks who CCW/EDC and shoot 1911's, shouldn't.

Just like your car. Reminds me of the old FRAM oil filter commercial.

Go figure.

Fred

[ToddG]

There is a huge difference between maintaining parts (like scheduled spring replacements) and needing frame rails clean enough to eat off of.

[DonovanM]

No, but in my experience the takedown levers fail earlier on the steel framed guns. I think they get battered harder because there is no ability for the frame to flex. When I started shooting SIGs I gravitated toward the steel frame because I thought it would (a) be more durable and (b) be easier to shoot fast. Neither proved true.

I've seen you mention this about about P220ST's before, does the same go for a P226ST?

[ToddG]

I've seen you mention this about about P220ST's before, does the same go for a P226ST?

My personal experience with the P226ST does not extend into high round counts. However, the people I know who've shot them extensively for competition tended to have the same problem with the takedown lever, yes. One friend had the lever on his 9mm P226ST break well under 20k.

[Blayglock]

I'm fairly obsessive about gun cleaning and maintenance. It was the way I was raised, my dad would tan my hide if I put a gun back in the case dirty.

This p226 I have is a W. German model. I sent it back to Sig for their service package and Siglite night sights. Since getting it back I've only put 300 rounds through it, but I want to do the 2k round challenge, so I've resisted the urge to clean it.

When I sent it to Sig they told me the sights would be regulated so that I could "drive the dot" so to speak, but the gun is shooting high for me. I need to figure that out.

In the first 300 rounds I have been working on the press-outs and the DA/SA transition since I come from Glocks and 1911s. So far it's not hard been to hard for me to put the two rounds close to one another. However I need to figure out why I'm shooting high.

[F-Trooper05]

AS an old Marine DI I sometimes just vibrate at the dirty guns I see folks shooting. Then they wonder why, when their guns begin to hiccup.

If you saw my guns you'd have a heart attack.

[jslaker]

If you saw my guns you'd have a heart attack.

The extent of my cleaning is generally a patch down the bore every so often, maybe a shot of CLP to the slide rails and locking block once a monthish. Every few thousand rounds I'll detail strip the gun and clean up the action components.

I really don't care if non-contact parts are caked in grime. If it doesn't affect the function of the gun, I generally won't bother cleaning it.

[Odin Bravo One]

There is a huge difference between maintaining parts (like scheduled spring replacements) and needing frame rails clean enough to eat off of.

I now replace parts when they should be replaced. But it doesn't mean I clean the gun at the same time. Or at all. Gun work, gun good. Last time the current Sig was cleaned was about a year ago. Current work Sig was cleaned about 7k rounds ago.

[Pasanova]

I've had 4 P220's. All have been POS. My current duty weapon is a P220 stainless Elite. 3 trigger return springs, 1 take down lever, and 4 extractors later it too is POS. At only 8,700 rounds. Two trips to Sig have not fixed the internal extractor issue. It can only be trusted for its first shot, because I never know when a double feed will come along.

[Blayglock]

That sucks man. Will they not let you use a different duty weapon?

[DonovanM]

I've had 4 P220's. All have been POS. My current duty weapon is a P220 stainless Elite. 3 trigger return springs, 1 take down lever, and 4 extractors later it too is POS. At only 8,700 rounds. Two trips to Sig have not fixed the internal extractor issue. It can only be trusted for its first shot, because I never know when a double feed will come along.

Don't despair, at least for the internal extractor issue. Grayguns' fix is finally nearing production (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/8880009742/p/1).

[LittleLebowski]

I've lost count of the people that still can't get past the Boot Camp indoctrination of scrubbing a clean weapon until the metal is bare. Just because a DI told you so does not make it so. I did 8 years in the Corps and had my Aha! moment after a week of machine gun work, watching dirty but well lubed guns run well and another platoon's incessant cleaning and assembly/disassembly trash some feed trays.

The real world is not the drill field nor inspection arms and a weapon that has been scraped on precision machined surfaces and given just a sprinkling of CLP.

[Kyle Reese]

I've lost count of the people that still can't get past the Boot Camp indoctrination of scrubbing a clean weapon until the metal is bare. Just because a DI told you so does not make it so. I did 8 years in the Corps and had my Aha! moment after a week of machine gun work, watching dirty but well lubed guns run well and another platoon's incessant cleaning and assembly/disassembly trash some feed trays.

The real world is not the drill field nor inspection arms and a weapon that has been scraped on precision machined surfaces and given just a sprinkling of CLP.

Ditto. I've seen training carbines (BCMs & M&P 15s) cleaned only once or twice a year shoot just fine, provided that they are kept well lubed and fed good ammo (IMI M193). The white glove mentality needs to be compartmentalized to the drill field only.

Guns run better lubed and dirty than bone dry and squeaky clean.

[cdunn]

I just traded into a 226 from another forum member, and was wondering about what should be replaced and when for preventative maint.I'm not sure of the round count before me but I can try to find out.

[DonovanM]

I just traded into a 226 from another forum member, and was wondering about what should be replaced and when for preventative maint.I'm not sure of the round count before me but I can try to find out.

Here you go.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/150601935/m/6801056451?r=6801056451#6801056451


Originally posted by sigfreund:
I believe this may still be of interest (original information from March 2008).

The following is SIG SAUER's current parts replacement schedule (numbers of rounds), with some comments of my own:

Barrel: If the pistol exhibits keyholing or unacceptable accuracy.
Decocking lever spring: 10,000
Extractor: 20,000
Extractor spring: 20,000
Firing pin: 20,000
Firing pin spring: 20,000
Magazine spring: When magazine fails to lock the slide open. *
Recoil spring: 5,000 †
Roll pins for breechblock retention (pins, HD): 5000
Safety lock spring: 20,000
Slide catch lever spring: 10,000
Takedown lever: 20,000
Trigger bar spring: 10,000

Mainspring (hammer spring): SIG SAUER evidently makes no formal recommendation about the mainspring, but lbj was told by customer service that guns with 40,000 rounds are still igniting their ammunition with the original spring. If ignition problems do develop and can't be determined to be due to other reasons, the obvious course would be to try a new mainspring.

* I also recommend replacing the magazine spring when ammunition is not held securely. This can occur before slide lock failures.

† I had seen an early recommendation here that the recoil spring be replaced after 3000 rounds, and that's what I follow.

For the armorers: SIG considers the extractor used in P220 stainless steel slides to be a "sacrificial" part, and that it should be replaced after it's removed from the slide.

[cdunn]

thanks

[John Hearne]

I just traded into a 226 from another forum member, and was wondering about what should be replaced and when for preventative maint.I'm not sure of the round count before me but I can try to find out.

Sig sells a rebuild kit that includes the recoil spring, trigger bar spring, decocking lever spring, and a replacement firing pin positioning pin. I'd simply buy the kit and swap all of the parts to make life easy.

Regarding the proper interval for recoil spring swaps, I was told on several occassions by Sig people that the normal interval is 5,000 rounds. The exception is the P220 which should be resprung every 3,500.

[LockedBreech]

BINGO!

My last carry SIG 228 (which is about 17 years old) had around 37,500 rounds through it. Still shoots great Unfortunately my arthritis forced me back to Single action type handguns.

Gun maintenance is a very much neglected function at this time in history. AS an old Marine DI I sometimes just vibrate at the dirty guns I see folks shooting. Then they wonder why, when their guns begin to hiccup.

I Convinced my shooting buddy to clean his guns, Glocks, at least weekly, (we shoot 2 -3 matches a week) and to change his springs on schedule. He hasn't had a FTF since he started about a year and a half ago. He used to have one or two a month.

This issue is the basic reason most folks who CCW/EDC and shoot 1911's, shouldn't.

Just like your car. Reminds me of the old FRAM oil filter commercial.

Go figure.

Fred

My dad was a cop raised by a WW2 vet. He raised me to be very, very strict on gun cleaning and maintenance including regular spring and mag replacement. It really does solve most issues.

Across the 25-30 guns I have owned, my FTF/FTE record is so small I can remember each individual failure. Some would say that I should shoot more, which is true (it's true for all of us) but my round count is definitely low-mid 5 figures and I've had a small handful of failures at most, across all platforms. My technique: buy quality, clean diligently, maintain diligently, quality ammo only.

[03RN]

I've lost count of the people that still can't get past the Boot Camp indoctrination of scrubbing a clean weapon until the metal is bare. Just because a DI told you so does not make it so. I did 8 years in the Corps and had my Aha! moment after a week of machine gun work, watching dirty but well lubed guns run well and another platoon's incessant cleaning and assembly/disassembly trash some feed trays.

The real world is not the drill field nor inspection arms and a weapon that has been scraped on precision machined surfaces and given just a sprinkling of CLP.
Unless I'm shooting cast reloads I just lube the gun.

[David S.]

Holy Necropost Batman.

[OlongJohnson]

Some a-hole linked this thread in another thread about Sigs yesterday.

P-F, where threads live forever!

[LockedBreech]

Shit I think the necro was my fault, I was on a Sig window shopping/thread reading tangent reading about the timeline of quality control issues, and I followed a link without checking timestamps.

I will place myself in the stockade.