Cover vs Concealment

[ToddG]

http://4put.ru/pictures/max/731/2248361.jpg

One can only assume the AK-wielding gentleman was not standing there when that shot hit the wall outcropping, penetrated completely, and went straight on to shatter the window. It's even obvious from the spiderwebbing of the glass that it was on the same plane as the projectile that went hit the wall.

[Chuck Haggard]

I saw that too, but was too retarded to be able to post a picture on the site.

If he put on the bikini and stood still they might think he's part of the display in the window.....

[GJM]

I am not that guy, but if shots were imminent my AK would not be in the folded position.

[Mr_White]

I wear concealment so I don't have to use cover. Am I confuse?

[Tamara]

On the gripping hand, I would assume it beats standing in the open like a duck in thunder?

[ToddG]

I am not that guy, but if shots were imminent my AK would not be in the folded position.

Call me skeptical, but I think a lot of the photos we're seeing are posed.


I wear concealment so I don't have to use cover. Am I confuse?

Gamer.

[ToddG]

On the gripping hand, I would assume it beats standing in the open like a duck in thunder?

Which was the one serious point I was trying to make from the jump off, and something I say in class all the time: the amount of stuff around us in modern everyday structures is not cover and will not stop bullets, especially something like a 7.62x39 round. Which is why, in many cases, freaking out about whether you've got one more or less nanometer of skin showing around the corner is a lot less important than whether you're actually shooting at and hitting something while "using cover."

[Tamara]

Call me skeptical, but I think a lot of the photos we're seeing are posed.

I was looking at this one (http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTX13TO7#a=16) and wondering, but I noticed that the photo credits go to a couple o (http://siegfried-photo.photoshelter.com/)f guys (http://blogs.reuters.com/goran-tomasevic/) who seem to have proven track records of managing to get right into the thick of awful things.

[Chris Rhines]

Which was the one serious point I was trying to make from the jump off, and something I say in class all the time: the amount of stuff around us in modern everyday structures is not cover and will not stop bullets, especially something like a 7.62x39 round. Which is why, in many cases, freaking out about whether you've got one more or less nanometer of skin showing around the corner is a lot less important than whether you're actually shooting at and hitting something while "using cover."

YES YES YES THIS!

After having seen a few cars and cinderblocks shot apart, I'm firmly in the 'make your own cover out of bullets' camp...

[BoppaBear]

At a glance, it appears his trigger finger is at least indexed. I've never been in a shooting scenario, but I'd figure this is still a solid rule to follow...

Even though it appears he would miss his foot, the splash after hitting the marble, probably backed up by concrete and rebar, would "leave a mark".

Ok, to everyone much more in the know than I (most everyone here), does anyone find the video clips of how these folks "operate" to be interesting, and almost like watching a bunch of 4 year olds play soccer?

I don't mean this as a slam, as I know that other countries do not have the resources or training that our armed forces and police do (which is probably why they often ask our men and women to liaise with them), but it sure seems like there are a lot of potential follies happening...at least in the short video clips you see on the news, etc.

I understand that the real thing is much different than training, but they seem to ignore some of the most basic of basic about cover and concealment, muzzle discipline, and any kind of organization. I sometimes wonder, in situations like this in third world nations, how many people are killed or injured by friendly fire.

[Chuck Haggard]

Dude has an indexed trigger finger, but with that grip, on that gun, with the stock folded, he's about three seconds from being able to get the selector off and get rounds downrange.

Lots of the planet seems to think cool guys don't need stocks on rifles.

[jlw]

A few years ago, I met the top two guys from the Tanzanian national police. They said that their street level guys all carried AK-47s and pistols were reserved for the high ranking officers and plain clothes cops. I suspect that it is similar in Kenya.

[Chuck Haggard]

A few years ago, I met the top two guys from the Tanzanian national police. They said that their street level guys all carried AK-47s and pistols were reserved for the high ranking officers and plain clothes cops. I suspect that it is similar in Kenya.

Probably is in most places. Coppers check the long gun in and out for the shift, easy to see and keep track of, and AKs are far cheaper in many places than a quality handgun.

[Totem Polar]

^^^Not to mention more effective if one finds themselves under fire or under a lion charge or hyena stare.

[Odin Bravo One]

Probably is in most places. Coppers check the long gun in and out for the shift, easy to see and keep track of, and AKs are far cheaper in many places than a quality handgun.

They are also much more practical when the police force are actually up against heavily armed (and armored) organized crime, militia and terrorist organizations who are using AK-47's, RPG's, IED's, Technicals, etc. Boko Haram, Al-shabaab, AQIM, Taureg's, and other groups of people who wander those regions make carrying an AK-47 a very attractive option. Knowing you are likely going to a gunfight tends to change the mindset when it comes to weapon selection vs. carrying a sidearm knowing the odds are greatly in your favor of never having to use it.

[Chuck Haggard]

They are also much more practical when the police force are actually up against heavily armed (and armored) organized crime, militia and terrorist organizations who are using AK-47's, RPG's, IED's, Technicals, etc. Boko Haram, Al-shabaab, AQIM, Taureg's, and other groups of people who wander those regions make carrying an AK-47 a very attractive option. Knowing you are likely going to a gunfight tends to change the mindset when it comes to weapon selection vs. carrying a sidearm knowing the odds are greatly in your favor of never having to use it.

Oh, I totally get all of that. Even in more civilized places, like South Africa years ago, you could run into a North Hollywood type fight with regularity. I have a friend who was on the flying squad in Cape Town, one day he and his partner ran out of ammo for the long guns in a fight against seven guys with AKs robbing a bank. They were carrying R4s with two reloads each, so 35 rounds X 3, wasn't enough ammo that day. They decided to "Run Away!" [Monty Python voice] when they got down to just the pistols.

Even with an AK being issued I would avoid being the guy with zero extra ammo if at all possible, such as many of the dudes in those pics.

[Drang]

Looks like he's peering around the edge of a pillar, ignoring the broken glass at his back.

And the thread title reminds me of the assault course in Basic, in which my "battle buddy" and I did the fire-and-maneuver thing up the lane until the remote-controlled MG in the bunker opened up, and I jumped behind a log, and he jumped behind a 55 gallon drum.

After he did 25 push ups to reinforce the lesson that a 55 gallon drum is NOT cover, we got on with assaulting the bunker. (And, just to put the frosting on the cake of his incompetence, his '16 jammed as I ran up to toss the grenade in the slit...)

[ToddG]

After he did 25 push ups to reinforce the lesson that a 55 gallon drum is NOT cover,

TRAINING SCAR! Now I bet he spontaneously does push ups in the middle of gun fights. Total fail.

[Drang]

He was a medic, he may have never touched a weapon again after Basic. (On duty, that is. He was a good ol' boy from, IIRC, Waycross.)(That was in '80, before Big Army decreed that all medics would qualify annually just like the rest of us.)

EDIT: I may also be remembering the sequence of events incorrectly, it has been a couple of years...

[jlw]

TRAINING SCAR! Now I bet he spontaneously does push ups in the middle of gun fights. Total fail.


He was a medic, he may have never touched a weapon again after Basic. (On duty, that is. He was a good ol' boy from, IIRC, Waycross.)(That was in '80, before Big Army decreed that all medics would qualify annually just like the rest of us.)

EDIT: I may also be remembering the sequence of events incorrectly, it has been a couple of years...


Okefenokee boys ain't worried about such things as training scars...

[Al T.]

Okefenokee boys ain't worried about such things as training scars...

I've never trained a SCAR, but if anyone wants to send me one, I'm on it. :D

Drang, had to be the assault course at FLW. ;)

[Drang]

I've never trained a SCAR, but if anyone wants to send me one, I'm on it. :D

Drang, had to be the assault course at FLW. ;)

Hoo-ah. :cool: