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dustyvarmint
09-23-2013, 02:33 PM
Couldn't figure out a good title. :o

My goal is to shoot the best I can with a basic gun - what an LEO might be able to carry. Other than grip tape and an OEM adjustable sight (both changes influenced by TCinVA), my G17 is box stock.

I find I'd like to do some upgrades to my AR, but I wonder what police departments allow, if any?

For instance, I'd like an ambi-selector that I could operate with my firing hand index finger, I'd like to smooth out the trigger so it isn't two distinct steps (resistance followed by grit), a grip that doesn't have a finger ridge in the exact wrong place and a Magpul handguard that would allow me to de-Jerry-rig my forward sling attachment.

Do departments allow these types changes? I'm guessing some, like the trigger, absolutely not.

I know I have the ability to do anything I want, but, again, my goal is to stick what an LEO might be able to use.

happy shooting, dv

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2013, 02:38 PM
We allow rails, lights, grips, Aimpoints (must have BUISs), ambi safeties, fore grips, changing the stock to something like Mag PUl or Vltor, etc. A sling of some sort is required.

That we aren't stuck with box stock guns like many places may have something to do with me and another SWAT guy having written the regs for rifles at our job.

Josh Runkle
09-23-2013, 02:39 PM
Couldn't figure out a good title. :o

My goal is to shoot the best I can with a basic gun - what an LEO might be able to carry. Other than grip tape and an OEM adjustable sight (both changes influenced by TCinVA), my G17 is box stock.

I find I'd like to do some upgrades to my AR, but I wonder what police departments allow, if any?

For instance, I'd like an ambi-selector that I could operate with my firing hand index finger, I'd like to smooth out the trigger so it isn't two distinct steps (resistance followed by grit), a grip that doesn't have a finger ridge in the exact wrong place and a Magpul handguard that would allow me to de-Jerry-rig my forward sling attachment.

Do departments allow these types changes? I'm guessing some, like the trigger, absolutely not.

I know I have the ability to do anything I want, but, again, my goal is to stick what an LEO might be able to use.

happy shooting, dv

Are you an LEO? Does your agency have requirements posted/written somewhere?

Context?

Why do you want a gun that an LEO might be able to use?

jlw
09-23-2013, 03:40 PM
I find I'd like to do some upgrades to my AR, but I wonder what police departments allow, if any?



Understand that there are over 17,000 law enforcement agencies in the United States; therefore, you could get that many different answers.

At my previous agency, you carried it as it was issued to you and only the issued gear was allowed. Period. For general patrol use, that meant a stock rifle. Period.

At the SO, if it is an agency rifle, you can do minor mods such as putting on your choice of sling or an optic, but you had better be able to hand it back to me as a stock rifle on demand. The guys who want to carry tricked out stuff generally submit a personally owned rifle for approval.

dustyvarmint
09-23-2013, 06:18 PM
I think I have my answer - in general, shoot it stock.

I used a police department as my example as I thought they are often restrictive and an LEO often has to shoot it stock - for better or worse.

Two more examples of context:

-Bowhunting: I always hunted with the value-point bow - every man's (woman's) bow. That included going to South Africa. Until I got on a factory shooting staff, that is, then I shot top-of-the-line - an experience that I regret BTW.

-Everyman: I just don't think this comes across right. What every man can afford. Not the top of the line. What every man can afford to shoot - the basic.

thanks & happy shooting, dv

VolGrad
09-24-2013, 06:24 AM
I know I have the ability to do anything I want, but, again, my goal is to stick what an LEO might be able to use.
To each his own but I don't understand this logic.

I would wager you are thinking, "What if I had to use it for self defense and had to defend myself in court?". I'd suggest not getting stuck in that mindset.

Tamara
09-24-2013, 06:56 AM
Heck, an Aimpoint sight is pretty "Everyman" these days, found on everything from the patrol 6920 in the trunk of Deputy Lawdog's cruiser to Pfc. Snuffy's M4.

On the other hand, Deputy Lawdog and Pfc. Snuffy will get in trouble if they go dicking with the as-issued trigger for a number of very valid reasons.

LSP972
09-24-2013, 08:11 AM
Heck, an Aimpoint sight is pretty "Everyman" these days, found on everything from the patrol 6920 in the trunk of Deputy Lawdog's cruiser to Pfc. Snuffy's M4.

On the other hand, Deputy Lawdog and Pfc. Snuffy will get in trouble if they go dicking with the as-issued trigger for a number of very valid reasons.

This^.

I too wonder about you motivation for this question, dusty. I'm thinking it has more to do with "battlefield pick-up" than legal ramiifications, yes?

In either event, my advice is don't worry about it. Set up your personal weaponry to suit you.

My old agency just completed issuing AR carbines to everybody (back in my day, only SWAT got company carbines, although the regular troops could field a personally-owned one. The issue shoulder gun for the masses was an 870). The issued guns have irons and a detachable VFG; the troops have the option of fitting a personal optic and/or a white light selected from an approved list, all subject to inspection/approval before fielding. The SWAT carbines come with those two options, but the carbine issued to the rank and file is plain vanilla.

ANY "modifications" other than those listed are grounds for serious disciplinary action.

Again, don't take this as criticism- I understand your question- but it really doesn't matter.

.

John Hearne
09-24-2013, 08:18 AM
My agency actually has a good policy on upgrades with specific manufacturers being authorized. We allow upgrade of triggers as long as it is a non-adjustable option. I'm running the factory "enhanced" trigger from Colt.

dustyvarmint
09-24-2013, 09:01 AM
I think I have my answer - in general, shoot it stock.

I used a police department as my example as I thought they are often restrictive and an LEO often has to shoot it stock - for better or worse.

Two more examples of context:

-Bowhunting: I always hunted with the value-point bow - every man's (woman's) bow. That included going to South Africa. Until I got on a factory shooting staff, that is, then I shot top-of-the-line - an experience that I regret BTW.

-Everyman: I just don't think this comes across right. What every man can afford. Not the top of the line. What every man can afford to shoot - the basic.

thanks & happy shooting, dv

Other than what is in the original post and what I added, above, I can't offer any better explanation of my shooting goal (shoot a basic gun as best I can) - than what I've already offered and it has nothing to do with liability. While any firearm could conceivably be used for SD, the AR is a recreational shooting tool for me.

Since my AR came as a flat top, Tam's two sentences are pretty much spot on. Except that I've put irons on to shoot with (my goal) and an RDS, at least temporarily, for an upcoming class since the instructor highly recommended it. I'll say that I'm kind of liking the RDS... ;)

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate and want the discussion - I learn from it.

happy shooting, dv

VolGrad
09-24-2013, 10:30 AM
I can't offer any better explanation of my shooting goal (shoot a basic gun as best I can)
Fair enough. I just see this as a different goal than "shoot what a LEO might be able to carry" since there is no real definition or standarization as to what LEO might use.

I get shooting basic. I could care less what a LEO might use. They are two totally different concepts.

dustyvarmint
09-24-2013, 10:48 AM
Fair enough. I just see this as a different goal than "shoot what a LEO might be able to carry" since there is no real definition or standarization as to what LEO might use.

I get shooting basic. I could care less what a LEO might use. They are two totally different concepts.

Yes, when Josh quoted that part back, it seemed kind of ominous, which was not the intent.

Happy shooting, dv

ST911
09-24-2013, 08:52 PM
What tpd and jlw said. Common sense mods with quality brands, sensibly arranged. I have a "recommended" list, and an "acceptable" list. The latter is mostly what I'll grit my teeth and sign approval for.

jlw's point on 17,000 different answers applies as well. There is epic tomfoolery in agency approval processes, and some who are squared away. OP- Focus on what you need and don't worry so much about what the cops are doing. If you insist, the voices here have an excellent signal:noise and will lead you well.

Suvorov
09-24-2013, 10:43 PM
Other than what is in the original post and what I added, above, I can't offer any better explanation of my shooting goal (shoot a basic gun as best I can) - than what I've already offered and it has nothing to do with liability. While any firearm could conceivably be used for SD, the AR is a recreational shooting tool for me.

I completely understand where your are coming from!

I have a draw to guns that are for the most part stock with only slight enhancements that are durable enough for prolonged and real world field use.

I'd say everyone else has pretty much set you on the right path. In my eyes, "allowable rifle upgrades" would be:
- Optic/Scope suitable to the range that you intend the rifle for use.
- Enhanced trigger group like the ALG Defense or Giessel SSA-E.
- Free float tube like the Viking Tactics or Troy Alpha Rail, or any of the quad rail systems out there.
- Good Sling.

Really with ARs, other than putting in some super light/fast trigger there isn't really much you can do that really makes them too impractical. My buddy who is a Houston PD K9 officer is currently carrying a LaRue with a muzzle break on it that looks like a horse's pecker. OK with his department, but I'd sure hate to be standing by him when he lights that sucker off. :eek:

John Hearne
09-25-2013, 08:31 AM
We have a similar list for shotgun accessories.

Authorized Accessories - AR-15/M16/M4
To capitalize on the advances of sighting systems over the past few years the NPS has compiled the following list of authorized accessories. The list is divided into categories by manufacturer. It is not the intention to promote one product over another.

Parks wishing to adopt new accessories will need to furnish information or samples to the Firearms Program Manager for testing, with authorization coming from the DCOP.

As a reminder, telescopic and non-telescopic optical sighting systems are authorized for use on rifles only with the approval of the Chief Ranger or Supervisory Special Agent and all commissioned employees who carry firearms with additional sighting systems will qualify with the standard sight system (iron sights) as well as with the added sight system.

Optics: When considering optics first determine the type of optic that will best suit the work conditions. For example, a magnified optic may be best in open terrain where the magnification will allow for more efficient accuracy at distance. A dot sight, however, may be a best choice for many applications. Dot sights are typically non-magnified and allow for rapid target acquisition under a majority of conditions. Dot sights may also be mounted in a manner that makes them co-witnessed, allowing the shooter to use both iron sights and the dot sight at the same time.
Tritium front and rear iron sights are approved for duty use. They must be installed by an armorer.

Trijicon, INC.
Any of the optics designed for Law Enforcement or Military use. These items include, but are not limited to:
1. The ACOG (Advanced Combat Optical Gunsights) line of products.
2. Reflex sight product line
3. Ruggedized mini-red dot sites.
4. Tri-Power optics line
5. Any of their line of night iron sights for duty approved weapons.

Aimpoint
Any of the optics designed for Law Enforcement or Military use. These items include, but are not limited to:
1. CompM2, ML2, M3, M4, and M4s
2. T-1 or H-1 Micro red dot
3. 3x Magnifier

L-3 EOtech
Any of the optics designed for Law Enforcement or Military use. These items include, but are not limited to:
1. 552, 553, etc. series models.
2. 511, 512, etc. series models.
3. XPS series models.
4. EOtech 3X magnifiers.

Other Optics Manufacturers:
1. Leupold: Optics should be from their tactical line
2. Burris
3. Schmidt and Bender

Optic Mounts:
Optic mounts are a critical part of the optic system. Mounts must be solid and reliable in order to maintain a consistent zero. Though many mounts are considered “quick detach”, it is not advisable to switch optics unless critical to do so. Authorized mounts are:
1. Larue Tactical
2. Aimpoint
3. Daniel Defense
4. American Defense
5. GG&G
6. ARMS

Rail Forend Systems for the AR-15:
Rail forends are an excellent tool that provide for modularity of the rifle. NOTE: If optics are mounted on the rail forend, the forend MUST be free-floated. Free floated rail forends touch the rifle only at the receiver and are not affected by the movement of the barrel. Rail forends from the following manufacturers are authorized. Please contact the individual manufacturer or vendor for more specifics, such as free floated options.
1. Knights Armament Corporation
2. Daniel Defense
3. Troy Industries
4. JP Tactical
5. Larue Tactical
6. Midwest Industries
7. VLTOR
8. Yankee Hill Manufacturing
9. Surefire

Flashlights:
Lights on firearms are an important tactical tool for reduced light conditions where there is a high potential for gunfire. NOTE: Lights on firearms are tools to assist the shooter with target identification and discrimination. They are NOT search lights and do not take away the need for a quality handheld light. Authorized flashlights are available from the following manufacturers:
1. Surefire
2. Laser Devices
3. Insight Technology
4. Streamlight

Flashlight Mounts:
These mounts are predominately for the AR-15. Unless otherwise approved, these light/mount combinations are to be mounted to a for-end system and should be solid. Barrel mounted lights are less than optimal and should be changed as soon as practical. Authorized mounts are available from the following manufacturers:
1. Surefire
2. Laser Devices
3. Viking Tactics
4. Gear Sector
5. Daniel Defense
6. Larue Tactical
7. Danger Close Consulting

Lasers:
Lasers are a valuable aiming device, useful in applications where the shooter cannot access their traditional sights rapidly or effectively. Lasers must be zeroed and be mounted to a free floated rail system or the frame of the weapon. Barrel mounted lasers are NOT approved. Both visible and infrared lasers are approved for duty use. Authorized lasers are available from the following manufacturers:
1. Surefire
2. Laser Devices
3. Insight Technology
4. Lasermax
5. Crimson Trace

Suppressors:
Because of reliability issues that can occur with suppressors and direct impingement weapon platforms, suppressors are not authorized for duty use. Waivers may be applied for through your Region to the LESES office.

Night vision scopes and mounts:
Night vision mounted to the weapon system is not authorized. If a night mission capability is required, an infrared mounted laser system and head mounted night vision platform remains the current, most effective and reliable system.

Fire/Weapon control parts
• Adjustable triggers are not approved for duty use. Authorized Mil-Spec trigger systems (meaning any robust trigger system designed for combat use) are available from the following manufacturers:
• Geissle
• JP
• Wilson Combat
• LWRC
• Lewis Machine and Tool
• Knights Armament Corporation
• Norgon ambidextrous selector switch and bolt catch
• Ambi-selector switches: Including but not limited to Norgon, Lewis Machine and Tool, DPMS
• Magpul BAD (Battery Assist Device): This little piece attaches to the bolt catch/release and allows use of your trigger finger to lock and release the bolt.