9 mm: Glock vs M&P

[DocGKR]

From 1986-2010 I primarily used a .45 Auto 1911. In 2011, I switched to the M&P45. For a variety of reasons, based on time, scores, body abuse, and ammo availability/cost, I chose in 2012 to drop .45 Auto and switch entirely to 9 mm. In 2012 I used a G19; they were a delight to carry, as they are a perfect size for just about every task--working equally well for carry in casual wear, suites, and scrubs. I found the G19 accurate, but I had to work hard to shoot them with any degree of speed and they always felt like a brick in my hands during manipulations. I also kept wanting to have a safety, especially during AIWB carry and when moving around with a pistol in my hand.

For 2013 I switched to the M&P9; in many ways, the M&P9 is my favorite pistol to shoot, as the ergonomics on the M&P9 are superb for me and I also love the manual safety option. I've consistently shot my quickest FAST, Bill Drill, Mozambique, etc... using the M&P9. As some of you know, I am currently trying to recover from a fractured right wrist. After 100-150 rds of .45 or .40 and about 300-350 rds from a G17/19 or M&P9c my wrist begins to ache and limits my function for the remainder of the day--yet the M&P9 is so soft shooting, I can go 500 or so rds from one before my wrist starts significantly hurting. While the M&P9 is easy to carry in casual clothes, they have proven a bit too long in the grip to carry easily when wearing a tailored business suit or in scrubs--the M&P9c works much better in these situations. This leads me to have to have both the M&P9, as well as the M&P9c available. I might just stick with the M&P9c, but my mag changes are substantially slower with it than the M&P9 or Glocks.

But I am frustrated. No matter what I do, I cannot wring out the absolute accuracy I want from the full size M&P9 at distances beyond 15-20 yds. In this regard, the M&P9c are proving more consistently accurate than the full size M&P9. For example, today I started by shooting the old FAM qual cold with my M&P9--no problems. But when I moved back to 25 yds this is what I got:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9RMR0725yds_zps7a83ba9c.jpg
No matter what I do, I have not been able to shoot 100 points at 25 with an M&P9--I always get 1-2 flyers. Now I might think this was me, but immediately after shooting the miserable group above, I grabbed a G19 I have only shot 10 rounds from in the past 9 months and shot this:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/G19RMR06KKM25yds_zps5d48d53c.jpg
In fact pretty much anytime I am shooting an RDS equipped Glock with a KKM or Wilson barrel, I can shoot 99-100 at 25 yds without much effort.
http://www.lightfighter.net/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/4673685756125715/filePointer/4673685756718765/fodoid/4673685756718761/imageType/MEDIUM/inlineImage/true/G19RMR06%2520KKM%252025yds.JPG

I am an armorer on both pistols, so that is a moot point. To summarize:

-- Glock is more accurate at distance, with more versatile carry options.

--M&P is faster and more ergonomic.

So as we approach 2014, I need to standardize on what pistol I am going to carry for the next decade or so--(older, well proven) 3rd gen G19's or mix of M&P9/9c. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[MEH]

Loved the ergos on the M&P. Hated the lack of accuracy at 25 of the M&P. Sold the M&Ps (all five of them) and am now shooting gen4 Glocks. For me, confidence that the pistol would shoot where I aimed was more important than how it felt in hand.

[steve]

I am a biased Glock fan having sold all of my M&P's. With that being said the details you provide show you favor the M&P and M&Pc. A flyer or two at 25 yards is not going to change what happens when the $*#@ hits the fan at a realistic distance. Keep the M&P's, you like them, you will regret it if you go all Glock.

[jaschutz79]

I have to agree with MEH. I have been throught the gamut of polymer pistols. Comparing them side by side on a timer and for accuracy. To me the most important aspects of a pistol is that it is comfortable to carry, reliable and reasonably accurate.

If it's not comfortable....you wont carry it.

If it's not reliable...then you have a $500 striking tool.

If it's not accurate....not only is it less effective but it deters confidence in the weapon system.

The last thing i worry about when i draw is ..."Man this gun feels so uncomfortable in my hand"

[Kyle Reese]

I've encountered the same accuracy problems from my 2009-2010 M&P 9's, and have since sold them off. One practice session in Culpeper, VA comes to mind several years ago, when we were shooting at 15/20 yards, and my group looked more like a shotgun pattern. The accuracy problems were replicated by several Staff members in attendance. TC was kind enough to loan me a Glock 17 Gen 3 and the accuracy problems disappeared.

I loved almost everything about the M&P series, but the accuracy problems forced my hand back to the Glock platform.

[secondstoryguy]

I just switched from HK back to Glock(couldn't find a duty holster for the HK). Although S&W was on the radar Glock had the multitude of holster options, parts and inert training pistols that made the decision for me. There is also something to be said for being intimately familiar and practicing on one of the most widely used guns on the planet.

[kev8287]

Have you considered a match barrel for the M&P. That could give you the level of accuracy you are seeking. Or having the Glock grip modified to provide better ergonomics.

[Casual Friday]

I realize they're not popular in most circles because of the reputation of the Sigma(gasp) and I may get flamed for suggesting it, but I've been running a S&W SD9 for the better part of a year now and the only hiccup was the slide failing to lock back on one of the first mags through the gun the first time I bought it. I'm no Todd Green, but the accuracy of the gun at 25 yards is very good.

In terms of size, think Glock 19 with a more user friendly grip angle. One of the considerations I made in purchasing it over the M&P 9 was that I was only giving up one round of capacity(16+1 vs 17+1) but I was gaining a little as far as concealability goes. It carries very nicely, and with the slight beavertail it does not chew up my fat hands like all my Glocks did. The meaty part of my hand would be bleeding at around the 150-200 round mark with a Glock. For reference, I wear a size XXL glove.

I won't lie, the stock trigger was bad, but I honestly don't think it was any worse than the stock M&P triggers I've used. I added the Apex spring kit which brought the pull down to 5.5lbs and also really smoothed it out. Apex just released an AET trigger for it(similar to the AEK trigger for the M&P) which is supposed to reduce pretravel and overtravel. I ordered one and it will be here this week so we'll find out. If it does what Apex says it will, then the $20 spring kit and $40 trigger will be worth the $$ for sure.

Holsters and sights for the M&P fs work for the SD. The gun is a very soft shooter and I've been able to shoot it more accurately, consistently than the Glock 19s I've owned. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's more accurate than a Glock 19, just that in my hands it is. The better grip angle and ergo's seem to allow me to get a more consistent trigger press, at least that's my unscientific diagnosis of the situation.

Mags aren't hard to find, a little pricey at $33-40 a pop but they take the same mags as the Sigma(gasp) just a different base plate.

Everyone that has shot my SD9 has liked it, some even went right out and bought one for themselves.

I'm no SME or professional, nor am I a noob with a $350 budget. The price of the gun was only a small part of the reason I bought it, the features, how it felt, how it shot were the real reasons I bought one for myself. I realize the gun will never reach the popularity level of the M&P or Glock, but it's a solid pistol in S&W's lineup.

[GJM]

Doc, since you use a RDS, you more than most are in a position to be able to evaluate the accuracy potential of a given platform.

Going back to my experiences from 2-3 years ago, I always thought the M&P was easier to shoot than the Glock, because the grip felt more natural, the trigger easier to run, and the magwell shape more forgiving to reload. My previously reported M&P accuracy issues, ultimately drove me back to the Glock.

I have come to believe, with a lot of effort, the Glock can be shot as well or better than the M&P. I also believe you can get higher on a Glock, which if you subscribe to Robert Vogel's theory, is an advantage. Leaving aside my personal views, if you look at IDPA or USPSA statistics, depending upon your viewpoint, the Glock is either an advantage or at the least certainly no disadvantage.

Another advantage that Origami mentioned to me yesterday is that the Glock is almost the "non-gun" in the sense that it has so little distinct personality, that it allows you to look past the gun, and focus almost exclusively on software development. If you want simplicity, I could easily have two G17's, a 19 cut to 26 size for smaller carry, a G22 for animals, and have no other handguns.

I want to mess with the Beretta in the worst way, but I am enjoying shooting a K prefix Gen 17 so much, and continuing to improve with it, that I just stay with the Glock. There are certainly times I have been frustrated with specific attributes of the Glock, but I have just stuck with it, and I seem to get past those hurdles.

As someone who as been there, I think you need to pick either the M&P or Glock, stop torturing yourself about which is minutely better, and just shoot one platform for a predetermined period, so you can completely focus without constantly second guessing yourself.

[Kevin B.]

All things being equal, if you had to make a tight shot (not necessarily a long one), which gun would you want to have?

[YVK]

I am still waiting on Apex/Barsto barrel to make this decision. I know many people have given up, but I am still hopeful.

[WDW]

What about a G19 with professional grip reduction & stipple?

[Chuck Haggard]

The choice seems to be between comfort and having a manual safety vs accuracy.

The comfort thing can be a very big deal with injuries thrown in, I know about that. I have to balance all of my handgun shooting with how bad it's going to hurt later.

The quest would seem to be in getting the M&P accurate, thus making the choice obvious and easy.

[GJM]

I am still waiting on Apex/Barsto barrel to make this decision. I know many people have given up, but I am still hopeful.

That barrel has been three months off for the last three years. I know Randy has been doing his best, and I have had two M&P 9's there waiting for barrels to be fitted for a year, but at some point you got to pick from what is available now.

If you printed about a dozen of Doc's posts, taped them up on a wall, didn't even read them but just looked at the pictures, two things would jump out -- Doc likes stippling, and nearly every post has a picture of a 10 shoot group at 25 yards. Whatever he picks, I have a strong feeling that accuracy will be near the top of the list.

[ToddG]

The choice seems to be between comfort and having a manual safety vs accuracy.

It is too bad there are no comfortable, manual safetied, accurate pistols around...




















http://www.tactical-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/heckler-koch-p30s-40-sw.jpg
(image from Tactical Life (http://www.tactical-life.com))

Admit it, you guys thought I was going to say 1911. :cool:

In all seriousness, the fact that no one has been able to produce a problem-solving barrel for the M&P by now should be a giant clue that the barrel isn't the only (or necessarily even primary) problem in terms of consistent accuracy from gun to gun within the 9mm product line. Something else has gone TARFU with the design or production process. A tighter fitting barrel or "better" rifling isn't going to be the solution because, well, tighter fitting barrels and "better" rifling hasn't been the solution.

For folks using USPSA/IPSC as a gauge of the two guns' speed and such, if you think about it that's a poor basis. Given the level of difficulty at high level USPSA matches, a gun that cannot consistently land A-zone hits at distance is such a disadvantage that none of the top guys are shooting M&P9s to begin with. It's notable that the M&P has done much better in IDPA where the distance & difficulty of "hard" shots is limited by the rules.

In all seriousness, though, Doc, you've answered this question for yourself already. One gun let's you set personal bests on some drills by a tenth of a second, the other gives you confidence that you can hit what you want to hit under stress when you absolutely need to. Choice is simple, seems to me...

[Chuck Haggard]

In all seriousness, though, Doc, you've answered this question for yourself already. One gun let's you set personal bests on some drills by a tenth of a second, the other gives you confidence that you can hit what you want to hit under stress when you absolutely need to. Choice is simple, seems to me...

So you're saying he should buy HKs...............

[Casual Friday]

So you're saying he should buy HKs...............

I'm going to, P30L 9mm LEM. Just need to find a few more pennies in the couch cushions....

[ToddG]

So you're saying he should buy HKs...............

In all seriousness, no. Doc has more than a passing familiarity with the P30 and its ilk. If that's what he wanted, he'd have them already. So between the Glock he's confident with or the M&P he's not, the choice isn't complicated.

[Chuck Haggard]

In all seriousness, no. Doc has more than a passing familiarity with the P30 and its ilk. If that's what he wanted, he'd have them already. So between the Glock he's confident with or the M&P he's not, the choice isn't complicated.

Yeah, I should have added a smiley to that post.

[psalms144.1]

Todd beat me to it - the P30S or LS would seem to be a perfect solution. Lots of folks balk at the price of them, but, by the time you buy a Glock and have a competent smith install a match-grade barrel to get the accuracy you want; have another smith do some grip reduction/recontouring and stippling - you're at HK price range. Likewise an M&P with all the APEX goodies to make the trigger workable and a fitted barrel are also in the HK price range. Honestly, in my struggles to decide between the Glock (stock) or the P2000 (stock), I've given serious thought to the fitted barrel solution for my G19 - but, I already own the HKs, and money is an object, with furloughs, and potential .gov shut downs, and whatnot...

As I've stated before, there is no free lunch. The HK DA trigger blows chunks, and the "S" version in LEM is rarer than hen's teeth. You can convert a DA/SA "S" gun to LEM, but it voids the factory warranty to do so.

Maybe the right answer is to stick with the Glock for a couple of years, deal with the feeling of hauling a brick around on your hip, and wait to see if the P30X with the striker fired trigger is a solution to your conundrum...

Regards,

Kevin

[JonInWA]

Doc, since the primary purpose of ergonomics is to assist the tool in its performance of given function(s), what you're realistically dealing with regarding the M&P is more a situation of comfort as opposed to efficiency.

While I suspect that you may like the M&P more than the Glock, the reality is that you quite simply perform better with the Glock. This is about the time that scientific reasoning should come into play...

To paraphrase someone else (who's no doubt a far better shot as well), this is a classic case of a gun needing to be comforting as opposed to comfortable...

...And just in case I haven't hit you over the head vigorously enough with my verbal tour-de-force, yeah, you need to choose the Glock.
:cool:
Best, Jon

[WDW]

So you're saying he should buy HKs...............
No, what he's saying is, when he's ready, he won't have to

[DocGKR]

Thanks for the comments so far.

The M&P45's I carried in 2011 were as accurate as many custom 1911's I've owned; likewise the M&P40's I've used have proven just as accurate as any other .40 service pistol on the market. It is just the M&P9 full size pistols that seem to get these weird flyers when shot at distance. And yes, I have a whole box full of barrels (both old 1/18 and new 1/10 S&W, as well as KKM and Storm Lake). With judicious selection, a new barrel can solve some of the accuracy issues found in some M&P9's, but not completely eliminate the occasional weird flyers. Accuracy at 15 yds and closer is identical between the Glock and M&P--it is only at longer ranges where the differences can be noted.

The shorter trigger reach and hinged trigger on the M&P are keys to why I can shoot them faster (better splits) and more consistently at speed compared to a Glock. As others have noted, a Glock grip reduction does NOT significantly improve trigger reach. In addition, mag changes on the M&P are faster for me than with a Glock.

HK P30 is certainly an option, but mags, parts, and armorer support are harder to find here on the west coast and they are not as easily adapted for RDS use.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/9mmpistols_zpsd9ccd9e3.jpg

[rsa-otc]

Given Doc's stated concern with being able to withstand long shooting sessions with as little discomfort to his injury and that the M&P9 to him shoots the softest;

that he wishes to carry AIWB with a gun that has a safety and that the gadget is not yet commercially available;

that at the typical combat distance he out performs the Glock with the M&P on most standards;

that the existence of RMR's on his gun demonstrates a willingness to spend money on a $600 gun for better results given the circumstances (previous described eye issues due to a previous head injury and now a limb injury);

my suggestion that if in that box of barrels there is not a "Fitted" Storm Lake or KKM, have a competent gunsmith fit a after market barrel to his gun. It is my understanding that folks are getting satisfactory results with fitted barrels. Then again maybe you can scare up one of the scarce few Ernest Langton specials. Unless you are shooting the volume of rounds Todd is that should last him into the next decade or so.

[WDW]

Doc,

Have you ever handled/fired the FNS9? It has great ergos & a manual safety. By far not near the support of the Glock or M&P, but they seem to be gaining ground.

[DocGKR]

Yes. It was OK. Lack of support renders it a non-entity in my locale.

[BLR]

I'd stick with the M&P.

[JM Campbell]

I'd stick with the M&P.

Doesn't this contradict your "accuracy" thread?

[GJM]

I would place a large bet, say a dollar, that his choice will be a 9mm, and for magazine, holster and what he has already RDS modified considerations, only a Glock or M&P are under consideration.

[EVP]

Like most people here, I have owned 9mm m&p's, Glocks, and a p30 LEM. I really like the ability to run CTC grips on the m&p and all the Apex goodies. I also like the support and aftermarket that Glock has. I just don't like the state of were the current Glocks and m&p are at. I prefer the p30 LEM by a large margin for my carry gun. Also I have not had a problem obtaining spare parts from HK. One could place a nice order with them and have a lot of spare parts and springs to hold you over.

Doc it may not be popular but if I were in your boat, I would source and buy a few gen 3 g19s or 17s all pre 09 pistols. It seems running a RMR is one important to you. My H,L prefix Glocks have been rock solid same with my Austrian proofed K series. Do your preferred grip mods and machine work for the RMR. It may not be the sexiest choice but you know what you are going to get.

[DocGKR]

I've already got 5 of each type in question, so acquiring them is not an issue. It is deciding which one to use and which to discard that has become problematic. At the beginning of the year I thought I had it figured out, but the nagging random stray shots that plague the M&P9fs and none of the others is the issue, despite it being the pistol I prefer in every other respect...

[98z28]

...

In all seriousness, the fact that no one has been able to produce a problem-solving barrel for the M&P by now should be a giant clue that the barrel isn't the only (or necessarily even primary) problem in terms of consistent accuracy from gun to gun within the 9mm product line. Something else has gone TARFU with the design or production process. A tighter fitting barrel or "better" rifling isn't going to be the solution because, well, tighter fitting barrels and "better" rifling hasn't been the solution.

...

I was under the impression that the hand-fit barrels do solve accuracy problems, but the drop-in barrels are hit and miss. Did the barrels that Langdon had worked up only prove accurate in some guns as well?

The rest of this response assumes that a hand-fit barrel will solve the accuracy problem. If that is not true, then please disregard.


Doc,

If the full size M&P's we're consistently accurate enough, the desicion is easy, right? What about splitting duties between the compact and full size until you can source a few hand-fit barrels for the full size guns? Use the compacts for accuracy work and the full size for close/speed work to help extend practice sessions. Carry the compact exclusively until the accuracy problem is solved in the full size.

That narrows the current choice for a carry gun to the M&P compact and the G19. Although the compacts may be harder to run fast than the full size M&P's, my times between the compact and a G19 are pretty similar, even on reloads.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

[justintime]

what about getting a lonewolf frame for the glock? I've always thought they look like they would be similar to the m&p lower. I have never tried it myself...

[Savage Hands]

IMO, finding a reliable Gen 4 9mm Glock made in 2013 (which has an aggressive texture and better ergonomics IMO) will be much easier to find than a consistently precise 9mm M&P.

Oh and the Gen 4's tend to be very precise which may be a change in manufacturing and may or may not spill into the newest Gen 3's.

[98z28]

I've already got 5 of each type in question, so acquiring them is not an issue. It is deciding which one to use and which to discard that has become problematic. At the beginning of the year I thought I had it figured out, but the nagging random stray shots that plague the M&P9fs and none of the others is the issue, despite it being the pistol I prefer in every other respect...

Doc,

Have you tried any 124gr ammo? I have two 2013 M&Pfs 9mm's with single-dimple barrels that will through a flyer every five rounds with 147gr ammo (Federal HST and American Eagle TMJ). Both guns turned in consistent sub-3" groups with 124gr FMJ Speer Lawman and sub-2.5" groups with 124+p Speer Gold Dot.

Of course it may be cheaper to find some custom fit barrels than source your own 124gr fodder if someone else is buying your ammo...

[Rich]

Since I don't have any G19 instock from the good years.

With lots of thought I went with the HK P30 9mm Height 5.43

BTW I find a height of my P229 5.4 to be perfect for me IWB at 3:00 with a SD.

So the P30 is close to perfect height for me.

Only problem is coming up with a second P30. and practice ammo

Mags seem to be always instock as well as most parts. and there a ton of options for holsters

[Magic_Salad0892]

Doc, now that you've found a working manual safety for Glock pistols, what makes you hesitant to stick with Glocks?

[JonInWA]

Doc, if you're getting flyers which are occurring with any sort of frequency, and you think that there's a possibility that they could cause collateral damage to other that what you're specifically aiming at, (and you're not in a military environment where such might be irrelevant), I'd strongly suggest that you move away from the M&P 9mm platform for any sort of defensive/leo/.mil use, at least until a viable (and reliable) factory or aftermarket solution is devised. To me, at this point, they become viable only as range toys...

Sorry, guy.

Best, Jon

[DocGKR]

I've spent a substantial amount of time in a right hand cast the past year--I want a safety that can be used by either hand...

[LittleLebowski]

I've spent a substantial amount of time in a right hand cast the past year--I want a safety that can be used by either hand...

Funny how that changes your mind :D

[ToddG]

I've spent a substantial amount of time in a right hand cast the past year--I want a safety that can be used by either hand...

You know I mean this in the nicest possible way, Doc, but I think at this point you've reached fantasy land. You can either have your Glock (a little slower, no ambi safety), your M&P (questionable accuracy leads to questioning confidence), or look elsewhere (support, RDS, expense of starting from scratch all being issues).

You might want a Honda Accord to ride like a Ferrari and get gas mileage like a Smart Car while providing the safety of an APC and the roominess of a megayacht... but at the end of the day you've got to buy a car that's on the market.

[Chuck Haggard]

With some of the guns showing less of a problem with some ammo vs other ammo, perhaps finding one or two loads that group may be the working solution, find what groups then buy a case of that stuff.

I hear this smart guy on the internets has a whole list of decent duty ammo to choose from.... ;)

[DocGKR]

Porsche 918: 79 mpg, 211 mph--the best of both worlds, all for the low price of $845,000.

[justintime]

Porsche 918: 79 mpg, 211 mph--the best of both worlds, all for the low price of $845,000.

Double stack Sti?

[DocGKR]

Nooooooooo. Way too many mag issues. I would consider a 9 mm 1911 w/RMR if it runs as well as ToddG's...

[ToddG]

I haven't the faintest idea whether the gun would run well with the RMR. Is Atom doing 1911s yet?

[DocGKR]

I have several .45 Auto 1911's with RMR's--they work fine. Have not tried it with a 9 mm 1911 yet.

[BLR]

A commander might. I'd contact Wilson.



Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[Magic_Salad0892]

Am I really going to be the first to say that Doc should just run a compact Beretta with a rail?

Novak Sights, D Spring, thin grips, and maybe an overtravel stop.

Boom good to go.

[JHC]

The bigger question is when are we going to organize an intervention against this high risk biking???? :p

[justintime]

wonder if this would be reliable with an rds ontop in 9mm? http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-spartan-iv/ or even without the rds.

[DocGKR]

So I drug out a G19 w/OEM barrel and RMR07 and ran it today; 98-1x at 25 yds:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/G19OEMRMR0725yds_zpsdf12bf33.jpg

Also passed all three Defoor tests with it and ran the DOW. Definitely get more accuracy even with the OEM barrel G19 at distances beyond 20 yds, but remain slower than the M&P9.

[Comedian]

I have several .45 Auto 1911's with RMR's--they work fine. Have not tried it with a 9 mm 1911 yet.

Maybe check out the Wilson Combat Spec Ops?

[Tamara]

Porsche 918: 79 mpg, 211 mph--the best of both worlds, all for the low price of $845,000.

Won't haul a pallet of sod worth a darn. :p

[Plan]

I got rid of M&P9 after realizing that it was the enemy of my skill development.

What is faster for you with the M&P vs. the Glock? Splits primarily, or other manipulations as well?

[DocGKR]

Draws to first shot are roughly the same--a bit more consistency with the M&P. On a Bill Drill between 7-10 yds, I pick up 0.1-0.3 sec with the M&P over the Glock, also more consistent shot placement. Reloads are also faster with the M&P by a similar amount. On a FAST drill using the M&P9, I'll pick up around 0.3-0.5 sec over the Glock, with less missed shots.

[MSparks909]

Draws to first shot are roughly the same--a bit more consistency with the M&P. On a Bill Drill between 7-10 yds, I pick up 0.1-0.3 sec with the M&P over the Glock, also more consistent shot placement. Reloads are also faster with the M&P by a similar amount. On a FAST drill using the M&P9, I'll pick up around 0.3-0.5 sec over the Glock, with less missed shots.

I know you mentioned you want a pistol with a safety, but I'd consider the Walther PPQ if you haven't already. Not a Walther fanboy but very easy to get fast splits with this pistol. Trigger is excellent, ergo's are very similar to P30. Same overall size as the 19. If that's not an option then out of the M&P/19 I'd stick with the 19 and work it until you can lower your splits.

[DocGKR]

Walther PPQ is not a viable option where I am.

At this age and stage of my life, with the number of rounds downrange I have with a Glock, it is highly unlikely that my splits will ever improve with the Glock...

[JHC]

Walther PPQ is not a viable option where I am.

At this age and stage of my life, with the number of rounds downrange I have with a Glock, it is highly unlikely that my splits will ever improve with the Glock...

I'm writing off decreasing my splits with hits in general. I've gotten nowhere with them in a couple years. Max speed of .22-25 with ever greater accuracy is all I'm after. And I don't see the lower end of that all that often. ;)

[rsa-otc]

Just a wild hairy thought.

The M&P40 doesn't seem to display the reported accuracy issues that the M&P9 does. Would getting a 40 and putting a 9mm conversion barrel in it solve the problem? Are they reliable enough for duty use? Are there any legal or civil liability issues that arrive with this option?

Otherwise I think it comes down to deciding which is more important, the greater speed and precision at your typical combat range that the M&P affords or the increased accuracy that the Glock affords at distance. Is the M&P's measurable drop in accuracy at distance something that in real life is going to make a difference? How tight a shot do you envision having to possibly make at 25 yards?

[DocGKR]

One of the several M&P's I am messing around with started out its life as a .40 and is now a 9 mm.

Speed up close vs accuracy at distance; statistically the likely confrontation will be up close, thus favoring the M&P9. Unfortunately, I look around my world and see lots of places with potential to need for accurate longer range shots to stop an atrocity such as those recent sad events in DC and Kenya--business campuses, malls, hospitals, schools, churches, parks, etc...

[BWT]

Apples to apples, have you tried a Glock 17?

The 19 is a mid-size.

[Little Creek]

IMHO, if you shoot tight groups at 15-20 yards, then you shoot groups with flyers at 25 yards, it might not be the gun or the ammo. It might be what is going on between your ears. I suggest you line up two targets, one behing the other. One at 15 yards and a big sheet of paper behind it and aligned with it at 25 yards. Shoot a group on the 15 yard target and see what the shoot throughs look like on the 25 yard paper. I suggest shooting standing with your normal two handed grip/stance. I just can't see a tight group at 15-20 yards developing flyers at 25 yards. That being said, I know you are convinced it is the gun.

What weight/configuration bullets are you shooting? I hear that 147 grain JHP or truncated cone flat tip are the most accurate.

[rsa-otc]

One of the several M&P's I am messing around with started out its life as a .40 and is now a 9 mm.


For my own edification since I was going to go this route myself.

Assuming that the M&P40 was adequately accurate, what steps where taken to convert it to 9MM? If it was only a conversion barrel and Mags that rules out a lot of other issues. I wonder what dynamic is happening when the barrel is changed from 40 to 9mm.

[BLR]

I believe the 40/357 slide is a good deal heavier, fwiw

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[ASH556]

Doc, I've been down the same road. I guess I currently am. I shot a 19 for 8 years and 2 years ago made the jump to the M&P platform for several reasons including ergonomics, which leads to my shooting the gun better. Sounds like the case is the same with you.

How many "good" M&P's would you need to feel comfortable with it as your final choice? It sounds like you have at least one or two of them squared away.

I have two M&P 9's that are completely stock. One shoots great, the other shoots marginally/bad (6-8" 10 shot groups @ 25 yds once the "fliers" are accounted for). The bad pistol is currently @ Smith for them to fix/replace.

It seems to me that the M&P 9 is the perfect pistol for a lot of us if we could just get an accurate one. Seems to me that once a person had their requisite number of accurate M&P 9's, they'd be in pistol heaven. To me, that beats the alternative of fighting the Glock's ergonomics on a daily basis while waiting for brass to begin hitting you in the face.;)

[jwperry]

Do you expect your wrist to heal to the point that you're range sessions will no longer be restricted by discomfort?
How much slower are your mag changes with the M&P9c vs. M&P9 and do you think that utilizing M&P9 mags may help your M&P9c mag changes?


For the record, I'm currently an M&P9 shooter. In 2010 I made the same choice of Glock or M&P when transitioning away from the P30 for my primary pistol needs. I choose the M&P for many of the same reasons you've chosen the M&P; faster first shot on target, faster magazine changes, faster splits. I also had the concerns for long term availability of Glock parts; my fear of political action regarding civilian ownership on imported pistols, imported parts and imported magazines being another primary reason for my selection of the domestically manufactured M&P9. That's less of a concern now though.

[JonInWA]

Guys, let me pose a hypothetical here: Is it better to accept a slightly slower time on a Glock 19, with POI correlating with POA, versus a slightly faster time with a M&P, but with the potential of a miss/unintended collateral damage to a non-threat/bystander/hostage?

Yeah, it's a rhetorical question...(or at least it should be to most of us)

While some of us may in fact have the funds, time, and inclination to wrangle multiple M&Ps, and multiple M&P barrels in multiple calibers to build an acceptable one, I personally find that kind of finagling a bit hard to justify. Yes, I can accept that the M&P ergos are a bit better than those on a Glock-but I also argue that it's a bit of a fleeting advantage, mostly (or significantly)overcome by sufficient use with the Glock.

Doc's a pretty discerning guy-and a quite skilled, and trained shooter. He's also a big M&P fan; I respect that-but when he, and others, continually have accuracy problems with the 9mm M&P, and there's been sufficient evidence from credible participants that the problem is an inherent design flaw, which Smith & Wesson is either unwilling or incapable of sufficiently addressing, that takes the 9mm M&P platform off my list of acceptable handguns. There are certainly other alternatives (i.e., Glock, or a M&P in a different caliber, etc.)-but for me, the 9mm M&P is at least currently placed in the position of "epic fail."

That may be harsh, but let's face it: We're pretty realistic, and bottom-line on this forum. When these problems become juxtaposed against Smith & Wesson's hand-massaging of Todd G's long-term test 9mm M&P, I do not consider the 9mm M&P to be an acceptable "out-of-the-box" handgun for defensive or duty use. Yes, the S&W Custom Shop, 10-8, Apex, et al may be capable of massaging individual specimens into acceptable performance parameters-but that requires, again in my opinion, expenditure of disproportionate resources and patience-raising he perennial question, "Does the juice justify the squeeze?"

For a hobbyist, or for those with sufficient resources (and/or alternative pistols while the process is ongoing) the answer may be "yes." Great! But for many of us, I suspect that such processes (or the apparently strong possibility of having to undergo such processes) will significantly degrade the desirability of the 9mm S&W M&P platform, either organizationally or individually.

I just think that given the alternatives DocGKR posited to us in the initial thread that going with the Glock 19 is his best solution. It's not perfect-but I have yet to come across such in a man-made instrument, let alone a hand-held firearm. As Doc has stated, relative esoterica like a HK P30 and 9mm 1911 and other interesting approaches have already been considered and discarded by him (although they might well be of interest to others-but then they can limber up and start their own thread...)

Best, Jon

[LtDave]

For my own edification since I was going to go this route myself.

Assuming that the M&P40 was adequately accurate, what steps where taken to convert it to 9MM? If it was only a conversion barrel and Mags that rules out a lot of other issues. I wonder what dynamic is happening when the barrel is changed from 40 to 9mm.

I did this conversion with a factory 9mm threaded barrel and 9mm mags. Barrel dropped in and functioned perfectly. POI was consistently to the right, between 1" and 4", load dependent, both factory and reloads.

[Rich]

Guys, let me pose a hypothetical here: Is it better to accept a slightly slower time on a Glock 19, with POI correlating with POA, versus a slightly faster time with a M&P, but with the potential of a miss/unintended collateral damage to a non-threat/bystander/hostage?

Yeah, it's a rhetorical question...(or at least it should be to most of us)

While some of us may in fact have the funds, time, and inclination to wrangle multiple M&Ps, and multiple M&P barrels in multiple calibers to build an acceptable one, I personally find that kind of finagling a bit hard to justify. Yes, I can accept that the M&P ergos are a bit better than those on a Glock-but I also argue that it's a bit of a fleeting advantage, mostly (or significantly)overcome by sufficient use with the Glock.

Doc's a pretty discerning guy-and a quite skilled, and trained shooter. He's also a big M&P fan; I respect that-but when he, and others, continually have accuracy problems with the 9mm M&P, and there's been sufficient evidence from credible participants that the problem is an inherent design flaw, which Smith & Wesson is either unwilling or incapable of sufficiently addressing, that takes the 9mm M&P platform off my list of acceptable handguns. There are certainly other alternatives (i.e., Glock, or a M&P in a different caliber, etc.)-but for me, the 9mm M&P is at least currently placed in the position of "epic fail."

That may be harsh, but let's face it: We're pretty realistic, and bottom-line on this forum. When these problems become juxtaposed against Smith & Wesson's hand-massaging of Todd G's long-term test 9mm M&P, I do not consider the 9mm M&P to be an acceptable "out-of-the-box" handgun for defensive or duty use. Yes, the S&W Custom Shop, 10-8, Apex, et al may be capable of massaging individual specimens into acceptable performance parameters-but that requires, again in my opinion, expenditure of disproportionate resources and patience-raising he perennial question, "Does the juice justify the squeeze?"

For a hobbyist, or for those with sufficient resources (and/or alternative pistols while the process is ongoing) the answer may be "yes." Great! But for many of us, I suspect that such processes (or the apparently strong possibility of having to undergo such processes) will significantly degrade the desirability of the 9mm S&W M&P platform, either organizationally or individually.

I just think that given the alternatives DocGKR posited to us in the initial thread that going with the Glock 19 is his best solution. It's not perfect-but I have yet to come across such in a man-made instrument, let alone a hand-held firearm. As Doc has stated, relative esoterica like a HK P30 and 9mm 1911 and other interesting approaches have already been considered and discarded by him (although they might well be of interest to others-but then they can limber up and start their own thread...)

Best, Jon

I agree fully!

There's no way I would buy or recommend S&W 9mm.

Docs already has a few proven to be reliable Glocks and I just know he is fast enough to protect himself.

[justintime]

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/229-EXtreme-detail-Hero.jpg

:D:o

[KevH]

I would stick to older Gen3 Glocks. That's what I've done. I specifically look at the serial number and go for the 2000 to 2008 guns since those seem to be the most trouble free for me. Glock made more than million of them so they're not too hard to find and I'm sure parts will be floating around for the rest of my lifetime.

Brief story: As I think you know my dept issues S&W M&P 40's (2007 to 2008 production). One of our female officers could not qualify with her issued gun. She struggled for about three years having problems ever single time quals came around. Finally, I asked her what she had carried prior to the change over to the M&P and she said she carried a personally owned Glock 23 (3rd Gen gun). I asked her if she ever had trouble making the qual on it and her response was she never had trouble once. I told her to bring it to the range (which she did) and she shot a damn near perfect score with it. I asked her why she had chose to carry the M&P when she had such trouble with it and she responded, "It felt better." She's now carried her G23 ever since with no problems.

Afterwards I took her issued M&P and shot it. Looked like a damn shotgun pattern. I called S&W and sent them the gun back and they returned it with a new barrel and slide. Still not the most accurate gun out there, but it will now turn a respectable group.

There are issues in the M&P line (as there are in most lines today). We all generally accept that the Gen3 9mm Glocks worked. So I think the moral is, even if we can't get one new, and it doesn't feel as nice, let's stick with what we know works.

[EVP]

I would stick to older Gen3 Glocks. That's what I've done.

There are issues in the M&P line (as there are in most lines today). We all generally accept that the Gen3 9mm Glocks worked. So I think the moral is, even if we can't get one new, and it doesn't feel as nice, let's stick with what we know works.


I totally agree!

[TigerStripe]

DocGKR, if I were you I would have some company accurize a few M&Ps. Bar-Sto does seem to be holding Apex hostage with their purported barrel but there are at least two other companies claiming to be able to accurize the M&P. If I had the funds to do so that is what I would be doing. For most people, myself included, I believe KevH is correct.

[ASH556]

I've read that there may be some personal conflicts with some members here and this dealer, but this is interesting (M&P "fixes):

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=139767&page=3

[Kimura]

DocGKR, if I were you I would have some company accurize a few M&Ps. Bar-Sto does seem to be holding Apex hostage with their purported barrel but there are at least two other companies claiming to be able to accurize the M&P. If I had the funds to do so that is what I would be doing. For most people, myself included, I believe KevH is correct.

My understanding is that the bar-sto barrel isn't meeting Randy Lee's expectations for accuracy. So they're not holding Apex hostage so to speak, rather there seems to be an issue that they can't solve. Which says something immediately because when has bar-sto ever had a problem making accurate barrels.

G&R/Storm Lake offer an oversized barrel, but to my knowledge SL won't sell oversized/match target fit barrels to the public. Who is the second company claiming to be able to make the M&P more accurate?


I've read that there may be some personal conflicts with some members here and this dealer, but this is interesting (M&P "fixes):http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=139767&page=3

Honestly we've been reading for years how S&W is making positive changes to the guns, yet they still seem to have the same problems. If they are, great. But I'll believe it when I see a lot of them out there that are capable of consistent 3" groups at 25 yards and don't auto forward on slide lock reload. The fact that bar-sto is having such a problem makes me wonder how/if S&W solved the problems.

[GardoneVT]

My understanding is that the bar-sto barrel isn't meeting Randy Lee's expectations for accuracy. So they're not holding Apex hostage so to speak, rather there seems to be an issue that they can't solve. Which says something immediately because when has bar-sto ever had a problem making accurate barrels.

G&R/Storm Lake offer an oversized barrel, but to my knowledge SL won't sell oversized/match target fit barrels to the public. Who is the second company claiming to be able to make the M&P more accurate?



Honestly we've been reading for years how S&W is making positive changes to the guns, yet they still seem to have the same problems. If they are, great. But I'll believe it when I see a lot of them out there that are capable of consistent 3" groups at 25 yards and don't auto forward on slide lock reload. The fact that bar-sto is having such a problem makes me wonder how/if S&W solved the problems.
I sold an XDm for an M&P9 last week, so perhaps this helps you guys out.

S&W did fix the trigger issue.There's definitely a reset now, both auditory and tactile.
As to the accuracy,I wish I could offer comment.At 10 yards it definitely didn't leave any fliers,not that my offhand shooting is the best.in the business.It still auto-forwards,but only with fully loaded magazine. Partial loads don't trip the slide lock for some reason.The new gun I purchased has a test fire date of May 2013.

[Sunday]

Being an owner of 9mm 45acp and yes even 40S@W the 9mm is easier to shoot but for some reason I usually pick up my 40 S@W XD tactical I bought used real cheap 4 years ago. I have an voice inside my head telling me the more I shoot it the sooner it will wear out.

[TigerStripe]

My understanding is that the bar-sto barrel isn't meeting Randy Lee's expectations for accuracy. So they're not holding Apex hostage so to speak, rather there seems to be an issue that they can't solve. Which says something immediately because when has bar-sto ever had a problem making accurate barrels.

I appreciate the information and correction on the Bar-Sto/Apex barrel situation. Since Mr. Lee gets his products out rather quickly I assumed that Bar-Sto was holding up the barrel process. With so many new gun owners and M&P owners and Bar-Sto making a barrel for many different guns it seemed logical that the hold up would be with them. I agree that "holding them hostage" was a poor way to make that point. Also Mr. Langdon stated in a thread here (M&P Barrel Saga pg.6) that he and a barrel maker made about seven barrels that accurized the M&P.



G&R/Storm Lake offer an oversized barrel, but to my knowledge SL won't sell oversized/match target fit barrels to the public. Who is the second company claiming to be able to make the M&P more accurate?

Salient Arms. I didn't post the name as I don't know that they can actually do what they are claiming and did not want to appear to be advertising for any non-board related or cleared company.

[DocGKR]

The manufacturer of the uber accurate special Langdon M&P barrels was................wait for it.......................S&W.

Many of the pistols I've used over the years, including my Glocks, will auto-forward from slide lock if improper technique is used when reloading--S&W is not at all unique in this respect.

Reset??? Really?!?!?! The lack of tactile reset on M&P's bothers some folks, but is really quite irrelevant to accurate shooting. There is a good interview with Rob Leatham where he discusses trigger reset and its trivial importance when shooting at speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8.

[Casual Friday]

will auto-forward from slide lock if improper technique is used when reloading

Other than slamming the mag home forcefully like you're punching Al Sharpton in the face, what other factors lead to auto forwarding?

[justintime]

The manufacturer of the uber accurate special Langdon M&P barrels was................wait for it.......................S&W.

Many of the pistols I've used over the years, including my Glocks, will auto-forward from slide lock if improper technique is used when reloading--S&W is not at all unique in this respect.

Reset??? Really?!?!?! The lack of tactile reset on M&P's bothers some folks, but is really quite irrelevant to accurate shooting. There is a good interview with Rob Leatham where he discusses trigger reset and its trivial importance when shooting at speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8.

The lack of a tactile reset never bothered me in the old m&p, it was how long it was and gritty. There were times where I would feel what seemed like a reset an then engage the trigger again with no shot. That is also why I do not like the Lem variants. The noise or click is less bothersome than how short it is. The new triggers feel much shorter.

[Chuck Haggard]

The lack of a tactile reset never bothered me in the old m&p, it was how long it was and gritty. There were times where I would feel what seemed like a reset an then engage the trigger again with no shot. That is also why I do not like the Lem variants. The noise or click is less bothersome than how short it is. The new triggers feel much shorter.

Legit question, not being an ass, do you shoot DA revolvers much?

[JMS]

Other than slamming the mag home forcefully like you're punching Al Sharpton in the face, what other factors lead to auto forwarding?

If you're putting the mag in with a sorta-forward 45* motion, instead of straight up the pipe.

I know that might be a little hard to visualize in text, so another way to describe it is to envision the magazine having been inserted so that the magazine is angled forward, and the nose of the top round is touching the forwardmost part of the mag channel and drags along it the entire way (and the spine of the mag is perhaps dragging along the rearmost lip of the well). The heel of your hand exerts forward force as you thump it home, and you get an example of inertia at work; mass of frame moves forward, mass of slide stays mostly-in-place, the slide stop no longer has a load on it, so it retracts as it's designed to do, slide says to itself "I'm off!!"

Can be done with just about anything, but the most frequent/common examples are M&P (45 and 9, in order of likelihood; not so much the 9c) and Beretta M9 (and variants).

MAY (NOTE: not "WILL"...there's no such thing as a soverign cure) be mitigated or eliminated by ensuring one pushes the mag straight up the magwell.

MAY be mitigated or eliminated by altering one's motion: Bring the mag to the well, get it positioned; once there, bring the gun down onto the mag, instead of the usual pushing of the mag up into the gun. Perhaps because it's less likely to slam the mag home, doing this....? Dunno, I ran with the suggestion when I got it and it's worked, so I don't really care HOW. :p

[justintime]

Legit question, not being an ass, do you shoot DA revolvers much?

Not to any real extent, and I do not like them either. Lol

[Chuck Haggard]

Not to any real extent, and I do not like them either. Lol

Just a data point for me. People with revolver experience don't have issues with "reset" in my observation.


A K frame S&W would have the worst reset EVVVA!!!! if it was a semi auto pistol, but that doesn't seem to have slowed down guys like Bill Jordan or Jerry Miculek.

[Tamara]

Just a data point for me. People with revolver experience don't have issues with "reset" in my observation.


A K frame S&W would have the worst reset EVVVA!!!! if it was a semi auto pistol...

This right here. I've about come around to the way of thinking that say worrying about the reset at all is just courting trigger freeze. Todd Jarrett seemed to do everything but bruise his fingernail on the trigger guard between shots and I don't know he wasn't on to something. ;)

[justintime]

Just a data point for me. People with revolver experience don't have issues with "reset" in my observation.


A K frame S&W would have the worst reset EVVVA!!!! if it was a semi auto pistol, but that doesn't seem to have slowed down guys like Bill Jordan or Jerry Miculek.

I've spent a very minimal amount of time behind a 642 and I was more concerned with the other trigger attributes... Like the the 12lb pull. I'll be the first to admit that my inability to run the m&p or the Lem is a weakness. It did help me not break shots right off of the reset and roll through the trigger more, but I find it very difficult to run the trigger efficiently with super long resets. I've been playing with it this past week dry with the da sig.

[ToddG]

Reset??? Really?!?!?! The lack of tactile reset on M&P's bothers some folks, but is really quite irrelevant to accurate shooting. There is a good interview with Rob Leatham where he discusses trigger reset and its trivial importance when shooting at speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8.

Just because it doesn't matter to Rob with the guns he shoots in the venues he cares about doesn't mean it's meaningless to everyone shooting any gun for any purpose, though. There are plenty of folks -- including well known shooters & instructors -- who do care about reset. Ernest Langdon was the first guy who worked out how to "fix" the reset on the M&P and he's not exactly ill-informed in terms of shooting technique. Then there's Jerry Miculek who purposely sets his revolvers up with a heavier trigger pull than he could otherwise specifically because he wants a strong, positive reset.

It gets back to that whole "2-pound trigger on a 3-pound gun versus 5-pound trigger on a 1.5-pound gun thing. Anyone can slap the trigger on a skeet gun. Try it with a stock j-frame and things get less beautiful.

There's an ocean of grey between the black & white limits of "ride the sear perfectly" and "lose contact with the trigger" when it comes to reset.

[Tamara]

Ernest Langdon was the first guy who worked out how to "fix" the reset on the M&P and he's not exactly ill-informed in terms of shooting technique. Then there's Jerry Miculek who purposely sets his revolvers up with a heavier trigger pull than he could otherwise specifically because he wants a strong, positive reset.

The vague reset on the old-skool M&Ps would be less of a bother if it came forward with the vigor of a K/L/N-frame with a stock or heavier rebound spring; I can start pulling again when the trigger stops pushing my finger forward on those, but the reset on the RAM-less M&Ps is not only vague, but weak.

[GardoneVT]

The vague reset on the old-skool M&Ps would be less of a bother if it came forward with the vigor of a K/L/N-frame with a stock or heavier rebound spring; I can start pulling again when the trigger stops pushing my finger forward on those, but the reset on the RAM-less M&Ps is not only vague, but weak.

The three month old M&P9 I have definitely features a distinct reset.

No, I'm not switching from my 92-but I owned an XDm before joining this webpage, and research here and elsewhere made it clear I'd be better served with something else.

[Tamara]

The three month old M&P9 I have definitely features a distinct reset.

It's almost like I specified "old-skool" or something...

[DocGKR]

Syntax.

Are we all talking about the same thing?

I am all in favor of a strong, quick reset on the trigger.

On the other hand, I could care less about whether the trigger has a tactile "Glock-like" click upon reset like so many folks on the internet have whined about.

[Tamara]

Syntax.

Are we all talking about the same thing?

I am all in favor of a strong, quick reset on the trigger.

On the other hand, I could care less about whether the trigger has a tactile "Glock-like" click upon reset like so many folks on the internet have whined about.

That's what I am wavering in my position on. I used to be adamant about the "click", to the point of installing a RAM on my older M&P 9 and now buying one to put in this 357; I think I'm becoming less so, as long as the trigger resets firmly. I'll be putting a few hundred rounds through the RAM-less 357 next weekend. Dunno. Everything's up in the air now.

[Chuck Haggard]

One of the reasons I like a NY1 spring so much is that it almost fires the trigger back into reset. I could care less if it clicks when it resets, as long as it resets.

[JHC]

I was heavy volume glock shooter when I bought and eval'd a M&P Pro9 for 2400 rds in 2010. I had two shooter fails to allow reset in the first 200 rds and never another in the next 2200 rds while shooting Glocks with it. It shouldn't be that big of a factor I don't think.

[Gary1911A1]

I have been shooting Glocks so long and expect that distinct reset that I frequently fail to allow my M&P to go forward far enough to reset so I need to have a RAM installed now that my M&P9 will shoot a decent group with the two dimple barrel installed.

[Chuck Whitlock]

One of the reasons I like a NY1 spring so much is that it almost fires the trigger back into reset. I could care less if it clicks when it resets, as long as it resets.

I recently got a chance to fiddle with the NY1/'-' connector combo and like it a lot. I think I'm going to switch over to it wholesale.
Probably something to do with the DA revolvers in my youth! :cool:

[DocGKR]

In my continued quest to decide between the G19 or M&P9 as my carry pistol for the next decade, I noticed that my splits, scores, and group sizes with the M&P9c have typically been better than with the M&P9fs. After careful analysis, it appears that the lack of a beavertail on the M&P9c allows me to get a higher, more aggressive grip than on the M&P9fs. Fortunately the web of my hand does not get torn firing the M&P9c like often occurs when I shoot a 3rd gen Glock. I modified a couple of my M&P9fs by removing the beavertail. This small change is proving to be advantageous, as my rapid fire groups with the bobbed M&P9fs pistols are shrinking...

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/BobbedMampP9fsw_9cand9fs_zpsc19daf6f.jpg

M&P9c, bobbed beavertail M&P9fs, M&P9fs

[TR675]

I noticed that my splits, scores, and group sizes with the M&P9c have typically been better than with the M&P9fs.

This is similar to my own experience. My M&P9c is more accurate, more reliable, carries more easily, and is no worse in measured performance than my full size -and with X grips magazine adapters holds as much ammo. Removing the beavertail is an interesting idea...but given its other advantages I've gone to the 9c exclusively as a primary and relegated the FS to a training gun.

[DocGKR]

Unfortunately, reloading the M&P9c is painfully slow for me compared to an M&P9fs or G19...

[TR675]

Unfortunately, reloading the M&P9c is painfully slow for me compared to an M&P9fs or G19...

True. I didn't think about that. I don't spend much time on reloads.

[Mark]

With all the problems people have been reporting with new Glocks and M&P's it seems like short of
going HK you are just rolling the dice no matter what you get. I'm carrying a Springfield 1911 RO with Harrison fixed sights and it's been both accurate and reliable to this point with very good accuracy. Most of the set up issues people report from quality production 1911's don't seem any different then what I read with 1911's like Colt and Springfield. If I had the experiences reported by many here with Glocks or M&P's I would have been disappointed. For the record my issued M&P .40 has been both accurate and reliable since 2007.

[Nephrology]

Between the two I would stick with the Glock. The arguments have all been made for me, the chief of which is that you are confident in your Glocks and simply hopeful about your M&P.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Morbidbattlecry]

Unfortunately, reloading the M&P9c is painfully slow for me compared to an M&P9fs or G19...

10-8 has a flared magwell that might help. Its not out quite yet though and you have to use their baseplates though, which sucks. Have you tried perhaps shooting from a rest for groups and see if you still throw rounds out? It seams kinda odd to have 8 in a tight group and 2 way out there. I know you're a good shooter. But it might be worth a try.

[DocGKR]

Yes.

They have been shot from rests, freestyle, one handed, etc...

Different barrels have been tried.

I have two new M&P's that seem to initially be doing well--we'll see how they are after RDS are installed.

[Jaywalker]

With a sophisticated user, we don't see the easily-found errors in concept we would if a beginner asked, "Should I buy a 45 auto or a 44 Magnum for my first handgun?" Doc is familiar with his needs and each benefit of the two firearms in question. Since there's still a question, then, we have to assume the ambiguities are in the requirements, not the knowledge of the user.

I'd recommend a decision tree approach similar to the following: (There are multiple pathways - I'm following one of them - a "critical path.")

Will I carry it AIWB - y/n

If yes, do I require additional safety beyond a trigger similar to Glock - y/n

Am I limited to the Glock/M&P9 mentioned? y/n

If yes, do I value close range speed? y/n

If yes, do I value 25-yard accuracy? y/n

...and so forth until you get to a null case, since you can't have both close quickness and and 25-yard accuracy with the same pistol, and you already knew that. The tree lets you rearrange the requirements in order to set those things that are more important to you. It also lets you revisit requirements that might be squishy, like the limits on candidates, or safety device. I'd want some kind of safety AIWB, but if it doesn't have to be the M&P9, then it might be a SIG 239, for instance.

If it does have to be one of the two, then handle it the way the military does - with multiple shots from the M&P. I've seen some of your targets - it's rare to have more than one flyer - just shoot twice or three times in a long-range defensive situation. Squads use multiple shot auto weapons when engaging long range targets, and though it's been awhile since I dropped sticks of dumb bombs from aircraft, it was seldom the center of the stick that made the hit. That's what magazines are for - you aren't graded by the number of rounds you bring home, just the hits.

FWIW

[Wendell]

...you aren't graded by the number of rounds you bring home, just the hits.

You could be penalized or prosecuted for your misses.

[Up1911Fan]

Doc, what kind of accuracy are you seeing with your two new M&P9's?

[DocGKR]

Unfortunately real life intrudes this time of year and I will not be able to wring them out until the new year.

[md8232]

Doc when you have your slides milled for the RMR, do you then have the slide refinished?
If so, what product do you use?

[DocGKR]

Generally not, but black pray paint works OK...

[Greg Bell]

Not Doc but I have had excellent accuracy out of my recent production 9mm M&P. The first 9mm M&P I picked up was dog poo in the accuracy department. At first I thought it was fine but when I bagged it and compared it to my P30 it was terrible. I replaced it with an M&P .40 which was comparable to Glock .40s I have shot so I called it a day. Recently, I picked up a matching 9mm as a range gun and was pleasantly surprised to find it was quite accurate. It has a "single dimple" barrel so it has the updated features. At this point I have completely stopped recommending Glocks to my friends.

[Savage Hands]

Not Doc but I have had excellent accuracy out of my recent production 9mm M&P. The first 9mm M&P I picked up was dog poo in the accuracy department. At first I thought it was fine but when I bagged it and compared it to my P30 it was terrible. I replaced it with an M&P .40 which was comparable to Glock .40s I have shot so I called it a day. Recently, I picked up a matching 9mm as a range gun and was pleasantly surprised to find it was quite accurate. It has a "single dimple" barrel so it has the updated features. At this point I have completely stopped recommending Glocks to my friends.


What do you consider excellent accuracy, and at what distance?

[Greg Bell]

Freestanding 3-4 inches evenly spread at 25 yards using Fiocchi 115 grain. Same as I can pull off with my 2nd Gen 19. I need to rest it but I presume it would be around 2 inches off the bag. By comparison I couldn't do better than 6 inches off a bag with my old M&P 9.

[Savage Hands]

That's about what my 2008 made M&P ' s would do standing unsupported with 124gr +p Ranger-T, my Gen 4 G19 has done 2 inches standing unsupported with 124gr +p HST.

[Greg Bell]

Well, you are undoubtedly a better shot than I am. I am saying that I can't tell the difference between the accuracy of my Glock and my M&P at my skill level--that wasn't true of my older M&P. And of course, this is Fiocchi we are talking about.

[Savage Hands]

Well, you are undoubtedly a better shot than I am. I am saying that I can't tell the difference between the accuracy of my Glock and my M&P at my skill level--that wasn't true of my older M&P. And of course, this is Fiocchi we are talking about.


Lol, I knew it wasn't a 100% apple to apple due to you using practice ammo and me using defensive ammo. I was just throwing some more data in there.

[Alaskapopo]

From 1986-2010 I primarily used a .45 Auto 1911. In 2011, I switched to the M&P45. For a variety of reasons, based on time, scores, body abuse, and ammo availability/cost, I chose in 2012 to drop .45 Auto and switch entirely to 9 mm. In 2012 I used a G19; they were a delight to carry, as they are a perfect size for just about every task--working equally well for carry in casual wear, suites, and scrubs. I found the G19 accurate, but I had to work hard to shoot them with any degree of speed and they always felt like a brick in my hands during manipulations. I also kept wanting to have a safety, especially during AIWB carry and when moving around with a pistol in my hand.

For 2013 I switched to the M&P9; in many ways, the M&P9 is my favorite pistol to shoot, as the ergonomics on the M&P9 are superb for me and I also love the manual safety option. I've consistently shot my quickest FAST, Bill Drill, Mozambique, etc... using the M&P9. As some of you know, I am currently trying to recover from a fractured right wrist. After 100-150 rds of .45 or .40 and about 300-350 rds from a G17/19 or M&P9c my wrist begins to ache and limits my function for the remainder of the day--yet the M&P9 is so soft shooting, I can go 500 or so rds from one before my wrist starts significantly hurting. While the M&P9 is easy to carry in casual clothes, they have proven a bit too long in the grip to carry easily when wearing a tailored business suit or in scrubs--the M&P9c works much better in these situations. This leads me to have to have both the M&P9, as well as the M&P9c available. I might just stick with the M&P9c, but my mag changes are substantially slower with it than the M&P9 or Glocks.

But I am frustrated. No matter what I do, I cannot wring out the absolute accuracy I want from the full size M&P9 at distances beyond 15-20 yds. In this regard, the M&P9c are proving more consistently accurate than the full size M&P9. For example, today I started by shooting the old FAM qual cold with my M&P9--no problems. But when I moved back to 25 yds this is what I got:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9RMR0725yds_zps7a83ba9c.jpg
No matter what I do, I have not been able to shoot 100 points at 25 with an M&P9--I always get 1-2 flyers. Now I might think this was me, but immediately after shooting the miserable group above, I grabbed a G19 I have only shot 10 rounds from in the past 9 months and shot this:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/G19RMR06KKM25yds_zps5d48d53c.jpg
In fact pretty much anytime I am shooting an RDS equipped Glock with a KKM or Wilson barrel, I can shoot 99-100 at 25 yds without much effort.
http://www.lightfighter.net/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/4673685756125715/filePointer/4673685756718765/fodoid/4673685756718761/imageType/MEDIUM/inlineImage/true/G19RMR06%2520KKM%252025yds.JPG

I am an armorer on both pistols, so that is a moot point. To summarize:

-- Glock is more accurate at distance, with more versatile carry options.

--M&P is faster and more ergonomic.

So as we approach 2014, I need to standardize on what pistol I am going to carry for the next decade or so--(older, well proven) 3rd gen G19's or mix of M&P9/9c. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
A friend of mine prefers M&P's and he ended up going with an aftermarket barrel. Is that an option for you?
Pat

[ffhounddog]

I was looking at competing with a M&P 9 and others who compete are telling me I should pick up a M&P9c for carry. Are they that big of a difference between the two?

[LittleLebowski]

I was looking at competing with a M&P 9 and others who compete are telling me I should pick up a M&P9c for carry.


Pick one gun that you enjoy shooting, shoot it a bunch, get some good training, and stop switching guns.

You might still be able to register for the KSTG match on Tuesday, ffh. Just call the NRA range and see if there's any slots open. I'll be at the match.

[warpedcamshaft]

Hey Doc, quick question:

I've followed this thread and was curious of the trigger configurations of the specific weapons you are testing...

If I recall... you like the Apex DCAEK in the M&P series... and I assume the 3.5 lb factory Glock connector in the Glocks?

How much of a performance increase would you attribute to trigger characteristics vs ergonomics?

[Up1911Fan]

Doc, just wondering if you've had a chance to shoot groups with the new M&Ps yet?

[DocGKR]

warpedcamshaft: I find the hinged M&P trigger easier for me to use compared to the Glock trigger with the finger safety in the middle, but both work as long as I do my part. On Glocks I run an OEM "-" connector with a stock trigger return spring. I generally run the Apex Duty Kits on my M&P's, although the newer M&P triggers have proven acceptable right out of the box.

Up1911Fan: Life has been very busy and I have not had a chance to mount RDS on the new M&P's and fully ring out their accuracy.

[breakingtime91]

In the spirit of not having this thread die, Doc you got a update?

[DocGKR]

I have not gotten to shoot much this year, but I do have some data comparing several pistols I am considering for various reasons.

Ave of FAST drills since the start of the year:
M&P9c: so slow it took a sundial to measure
G19: 5.85s
M&P9: 5.21s
M&P45: 5.76s


Ave of 10 shots slow fire at 25 yds, B8 target (OEM barrels):
M&P9c: 96-2x
G19: 100-3x
M&P9: 95-2x (if I throw out one atrocious 82-0x); otherwise it is a 92-2x
M&P45: 98-2x

My speed, including split times and mag changes are better with the M&P9; at distances under 15 yds accuracy is equal, however at longer distances my accuracy is substantially better with the G19.

So what pistol do I concentrate on this year?

[fixer]

I have not gotten to shoot much this year, but I do have some data comparing several pistols I am considering for various reasons.

Ave of FAST drills since the start of the year:
M&P9c: so slow it took a sundial to measure
G19: 5.85s
M&P9: 5.21s
M&P45: 5.76s


Ave of 10 shots slow fire at 25 yds, B8 target (OEM barrels):
M&P9c: 96-2x
G19: 100-3x
M&P9: 95-2x (if I through out one atrocious 82-0x); otherwise it is a 92-2x
M&P45: 98-2x

My speed, including split times and mag changes are better with the M&P9; at distances under 15 yds accuracy is equal, however at longer distances my accuracy is substantially better with the G19.

So what pistol do I concentrate on this year?

G19.

[Rich]

I keep thinking I might face a BG at distance .

There fore I would opt for the G19.

I know its crazy for me to think it.

[ASH556]

Glock...I had to make the same choice and chose the Glock...the skill/speed improvement gives you something to work towards. When you're limited by equipment (M&P accuracy), there's no what to improve yourself.

[ToddG]

G19: 5.85s / 100-3x
M&P9: 5.21s / 92-2x
M&P45: 5.76s / 98-2x

My speed, including split times and mag changes are better with the M&P9; at distances under 15 yds accuracy is equal, however at longer distances my accuracy is substantially better with the G19.

So what pistol do I concentrate on this year?

I tweaked the data presentation a bit and specifically used the worse number for your M&P9 accuracy.

I'd look at those numbers and say that while you could certainly find a distinction in the finer points, from a practical standpoint you're talking about 5-6s FASTs and keeping it all in the black at 25yd with all three guns. If you shot 100 FASTs and 100 groups with each I bet you'd see the numbers even out more, not less. So basically... if there are factors other than your raw performance on these drills (ergos, support gear, confidence, ease of carry, anything) it's time to factor that in because from a practical performance standpoint these guns are too close to call in your hands.

[Savage Hands]

I'd like to see a G17 added to the mix since the shorter grip slows your reloads.

[JSGlock34]

I've been reading elsewhere that S&W introduced a LE only M&P9 version with a PVD finish (SKU 151215) at SHOT? Apparently these have all of the various upgrades (trigger bar, slide catch, sear, sear housing block, barrel) as well as new sights designed for one handed manipulations.

It's starting to get difficult to keep up with S&W's revisions and whether these have actually solved the accuracy issue or danced around it.

[DocGKR]

G19 is easier to carry, M&P9 has the best ergonomics. G17 is not an option.

[gruntjim]

I attended a range with a new FS 9mm (born on date of 1-3-14) and did my best to make it malfunction. I'd stayed away from this particular pistol for a while, owing to the rumors about it lacking long distance accuracy.

They turned out to be rumors, at least as this particular pistol is concerned. During our drills of moving off the X, shooting and moving, and just using weird stances under stress, two points became obvious: it pointed extremely well, and its felt recoil was minimal.

I fired it for function with a variety of carry loads, and I noticed it shows a small but noticeable preference for Winchester. Luckily for me, I still have enough RA9T to last me a bit.

Once I'd established that the pistol was good at 20 yards, I and my friend Doug Tollen (of Oregon Security Training) thought we'd check its accuracy further out. There was a piece of broken clay target against the backstop, some forty yards out. I took up a benchrested position, acquired the front sight, and pressed the trigger.

When the little pieces of blaze orange clay had stopped falling, Doug turned to me and asked me to repeat that. I walked out a half folded piece of notebook paper and set it against the backstop.

Devoutly hoping I wasn't going to dick this up, I loaded a mag of three 115 grain Tulammo ball. Three for three.

Doug wasn't going to let that go, and asked me to replicate the feat with my little Shield. The first two rounds missed high, by about 4 inches. The next three were dead on.

I caught Doug looking glumly at the full size, locked open on the bench, its muzzle frosted with residue.

"What's up? You loved that thing during the shoot-and-move drills."

"That's exactly the problem. I think I just lost my last objection to using these."

"So? Life's about change."

"I meant replacing the school's Glocks with these. You have any idea how expensive that's gonna get?"

"Long as I don't get the bill, brother."

Hardly scientific, but I'm reasonably sure the accuracy issues are solved, at least in this sample of one.

[DocGKR]

G19 for the rest of 2014.

[Up1911Fan]

G19 for the rest of 2014.

You too? I made the same call as well.

[md8232]

G19 for the rest of 2014.

Stock frame size, or cut to G26?

[DocGKR]

Stock

[ASH556]

Gen? Do you find a difference beween 3 and 4 or do you mod the grip enough that the "hump" is gone either way? Assuming RMR's too?

[DocGKR]

Same gen 3's I've used previously.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/3rdgenG19RMR_zps98753598.jpg

[Mark]

Doc, did you ever get a chance to shoot the new M&P's for accuracy? Anything new to report on that front?

[JAD]

Given the equivalency I'm surprised that the thumb safety wasn't a deciding factor.

[1957]

I just can't appendix carry a gun without a manual safety. The split-time difference does not justify a hole in the femoral artery.

1957

[DocGKR]

I will revisit the issue in 2015, hopefully after the new Unity M&P slides are available, as I do strongly prefer the M&P safety...

[Lomshek]

I will revisit the issue in 2015, hopefully after the new Unity M&P slides are available, as I do strongly prefer the M&P safety...

Ohhhh? Is that about correcting the accuracy issues or just getting a slide that is optics ready and better than the CORE?

[DocGKR]

Consistent accuracy...

[Up1911Fan]

G19 is easier to carry, M&P9 has the best ergonomics. G17 is not an option.
Curious as to your reasoning for not considering the G17?

[KevinB]

While not the Doc, I don't see the 17 doing ANYTHING better than the 19, with the 19 being smaller and lighter.

When working a job overseas we had the option of 19's or 17's and I shot the 19 a lot better, the grip angle was "better" (still not right - but better than a 17). The 19 conceals better as well.

[JV_]

I find the 17 a little easier to reload than a 19.

[Up1911Fan]

I find the 17 a little easier to reload than a 19.
I find the 17 to do everything a little better, I'm still carrying a 19 though.

[DocGKR]

I prefer the 19 as an all round versatile pistol; if I go bigger then a G34 gets the nod these days.

[Kyle Reese]

I have gorilla hands, so it's the 17 for me.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Guinnessman]

I prefer the G19 since the size of the grip is easier for me to conceal. I would love to try a G17 with a grip cut to G19 length.

[DocGKR]

Those can work quite well, although with an RDS mounted, there is no advantage with the longer slide for me.

[Beat Trash]

I prefer the 19 as an all round versatile pistol; if I go bigger then a G34 gets the nod these days.

I agree with your choice. I think the key phrase is "all around versatile pistol".

I come from a M&P9 agency. As a uniform duty pistol, it's doable. But I just can't conceal the full size M&P9 as well as I would like. (I've carried at 3:30 for almost 28 years. I just can't warm up to AWIB carry. Old dogs-new tricks and all.)

I have tried to like the M&P9c for off duty carry. I've tried and I've tried... I need the large grips on my M&P's. Putting a large back strap on such a short grip makes me feel like I'm always going to drop the thing when I draw.

Before the M&P9/M&P9c, I quietly carried a gen3 Glock 19 as an off-duty gun for about 11 years. Just about the right size to conceal year round, but my large hands and long fingers never felt quit right.

I bought a Gen4 Glock 19 last winter (Austrian made blue label with a test fire date of Halloween 2013). This sample of one performs like I would expect a 9mm Glock to perform. With the large back straps/bever tail setup, it fits my hands like a dream.

Doc, the only issue I think you might have in 2015 is being able to buy a new pistol, should you want to try something else. The political scene in California is getting interesting as far as gun sales goes.

[DocGKR]

With six G19's and six M&P9's, I think I am OK for a while...

[Beat Trash]

Glad to hear that Doc.

I was once told that, "Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poof Performance."

I think it will be interesting to hear how this year works out for you, with the Glock 19, once the year is over.

For my non-work needs, my Glock 19 and my Shield 9mm can handle about 99% of my pistol needs. Wants? Nope. Needs? Yes. At work, it's the issued M&P9, no options.

[Alpha Sierra]

Funny, I'm of the mind that the 19 is an unnecessary compromise when the 17 does it all better while being no more difficult to hide

[DocGKR]

I find my G17's harder to conceal than my M&P9's, which are harder to conceal than my G19's, which are harder than my M&P9c's.....

[TR675]

I find my G17's harder to conceal than my M&P9's, which are harder to conceal than my G19's, which are harder than my M&P9c's.....

It's funny how often smaller guns seem to conceal better than big ones. I can't explain it myself. Maybe one day science will have an answer.

[justintime]

I find my G17's harder to conceal than my M&P9's, which are harder to conceal than my G19's, which are harder than my M&P9c's.....

Weird I was just telling a guy that the other day and he gave me the crazy eyes.

[Alpha Sierra]

I find my G17's harder to conceal than my M&P9's, which are harder to conceal than my G19's, which are harder than my M&P9c's.....

Holster and clothing choices as well as body build have a lot to do why I said what I said. There is not enough of a difference in concealability between a G17 and a G19 for me to forego the advantages of a 17 (longer slide and grip, more ammo).

If I need something more concealable than a full size service pistol, I just grab a J frame.

[JDB]

Holster and clothing choices as well as body build have a lot to do why I said what I said. There is not enough of a difference in concealability between a G17 and a G19 for me to forego the advantages of a 17 (longer slide and grip, more ammo).



Concur. And pistol shape matters as well. I get slightly better concealment with a P30 AIWB than a G19, as the slightly rounded corners of the P30 slide and M&P9 slide print less for me than the G19 (or G17), and with the right holster the butt isn't printing with AIWB.

Likewise, with otherwise IWB RCS phantom holsters, I get better concealment with a full sized M&P9 than a G19....until I have to bend forward at the waist. I find the G19 more comfortable to carry though.

If only there were G19 sized P30s...and accurate G19 sized M&P9s...

[JonInWA]

While my G19 is certainly the "easiest" of my Glocks to carry concealed, due to the abbreviated rear backstrap configuration (in comparison to the more humped/extended profile inherent to, say, my G17/G34/G21), it is in no way particularly difficult to conceal and carry any of my larger Glocks. Situationally/seasonally, I carry them all-but I will admit that one of my G19s are probably the most frequently chosen for concealed carry.

Best, Jon

[Rick Finsta]

The biggest issue I have for concealability with the FS M&P is those stupid sights. Why in the world do they stick sharply off the back of the gun, and can't Ameriglo make the Idot Pros so they don't do this? GAH!

Also, the better I get with shooting the better I shoot Glocks. The 19 fits my hand as well as the FS M&P, which was the first gun I ever held that made me think "yeah, I like that."

[Sasage]

Sorry to bump an old thread but Buds has these for $399 shipped plus $50 rebate for LE/First Responders. Anyone have one SKU 151215?

Next gun was going to be a G19 Gen4 but this is tempting

[JHC]

Sorry to bump an old thread but Buds has these for $399 shipped plus $50 rebate for LE/First Responders. Anyone have one SKU 151215?

Next gun was going to be a G19 Gen4 but this is tempting

What gun would these be for sale at Buds for $399.

[Sasage]

S&W MP9 151215 2014 LE edition. First Responders and maybe MIl only

[JHC]

Well one can hardly go wrong with either of Doc's choices I guess. Bowie Tactical just RAPED the VP9 in a long post on his FB page about over complexity, potential fragility of the design of small parts and how some of them are anchored or not shielded. He boils it down to Glock or M&P for the hard stuff.

There is a lot to be said for thoroughly vetted designs.

[mizer67]

Well one can hardly go wrong with either of Doc's choices I guess. Bowie Tactical just RAPED the VP9 in a long post on his FB page about over complexity, potential fragility of the design of small parts and how some of them are anchored or not shielded. He boils it down to Glock or M&P for the hard stuff.

There is a lot to be said for thoroughly vetted designs.

Perhaps. I have all three of the guns mentioned, and with a foot in every camp I also see a potential conflict of interest.

[Sasage]

Perhaps. I have all three of the guns mentioned, and with a foot in every camp I also see a potential conflict of interest.
What's your opinion 19 vs MP9?

[mizer67]

What's your opinion 19 vs MP9?

Both guns for me, have had their issues.

My M&P FS 9mm is a ~2010 model. It's accuracy is extremely poor, with the best groups at 25 yards being about 6", which in comparison to the Glock 19 (Gen 4), is about triple the size. Some here have said eventually they found one load the gun would shoot well, but I haven't for mine. I've broken one slide stop, and it auto forwards on virtually any mag change no matter how gentle I am, but I hear the newer slide stop design corrects this issue. I recently got it back from S&W with a new barrel. While it's not reported that this new barrel Smith is installing on new guns solves the accuracy issues that these guns have, I'm hopeful I get lucky and this will help make it an acceptable shooter at distance.

On the positive side, the ambi controls are a real plus (I'm left-handed), it shoots very, very soft, mag changs are a breeze, the grip angle is nice and with APEX parts, the trigger is one of the best available in a striker fired handgun. If Smith solved the accuracy issue, which to my knowledge is only present in the non-compact 9mms, this would be a good gun.

My Gen4 G19 is circa ~2011. I've switched to an APEX FRE and non-LCI bearing and this (for me) corrected brass to the face which I've experienced on each of my Gen4's after a few thousand rounds with the stock extractors. With this change, it's been good to go in terms of reliability. It's not as ambi friendly as the M&P though and slightly harder recoiling while having a slightly worse trigger (after upgrades), at least in terms of feel if not actual performance on target.

On the plus side, in my hands it's an accurate firearm for what it is that's the perfect size (in my opinion) for carry. It's also extremely user serviceable, moreso than any other pistol on the market (although the M&P is close).

[LittleLebowski]

Well one can hardly go wrong with either of Doc's choices I guess. Bowie Tactical just RAPED the VP9 in a long post on his FB page about over complexity, potential fragility of the design of small parts and how some of them are anchored or not shielded. He boils it down to Glock or M&P for the hard stuff.

There is a lot to be said for thoroughly vetted designs.

I would love to read that post. I looked at his FB page and saw nothing but bodybuilder narcissism.

[orionz06]

Well one can hardly go wrong with either of Doc's choices I guess. Bowie Tactical just RAPED the VP9 in a long post on his FB page about over complexity, potential fragility of the design of small parts and how some of them are anchored or not shielded. He boils it down to Glock or M&P for the hard stuff.

There is a lot to be said for thoroughly vetted designs.

Nothing against him but I'm not sure he raped it. When it comes to firearms durability and longevity I will listen to those with a deeper understanding than him.

[JonInWA]

I would love to read that post. I looked at his FB page and saw nothing but bodybuilder narcissism.

That's pretty much what I saw too, with some M&P rebuilds interspersed. I'd be interested in a cogent review, but I'm unwilling to put up with that kind of sludge to get to it.

Best, Jon

[Kyle Reese]

I would love to read that post. I looked at his FB page and saw nothing but bodybuilder narcissism.

Some great tips on nutrition, though.

[rsa-otc]

Had the same problem myself and had to come back to the page several times before I clicked on the picture of the pistol as a last ditch attempt.

Hopefully this link takes you to it.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=ms.c.eJwVycEJADAMA7GNSm035LL~%3BYiVPISSnJnbuiI OUOA~%3BoeVnvG6aL~_uTRCZ8~-.bps.&type=1&theater

[Mr_White]

Had the same problem myself and had to come back to the page several times before I clicked on the picture of the pistol as a last ditch attempt.

Hopefully this link takes you to it.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=ms.c.eJwVycEJADAMA7GNSm035LL~%3BYiVPISSnJnbuiI OUOA~%3BoeVnvG6aL~_uTRCZ8~-.bps.&type=1&theater

Thanks for the link, I was hoping to read that.

[Kimura]

Well one can hardly go wrong with either of Doc's choices I guess. Bowie Tactical just RAPED the VP9 in a long post on his FB page about over complexity, potential fragility of the design of small parts and how some of them are anchored or not shielded. He boils it down to Glock or M&P for the hard stuff.

There is a lot to be said for thoroughly vetted designs.

I think he just points out what he thinks are the weak points of the VP. I know the internet is going nuts over the VP, but IMO it hasn't been out long enough to get a real sense of anything other than initial observations. Does that make sense? When Todd tests a pistol, he does so for a year or so and shoots more rounds than most people will ever shoot out of any one pistol. The net is nuts over the VP based on a very short honeymoon with the pistol and an endorsement from LAV. I'm not saying they are right or wrong; I'm saying it will take time to tell.

And Mr Bowie is not the first to say that the VP is far more complex than a Glock or M&P. But because it's in the honeymoon period with everyone, that seems to be overlooked.

Again, time will tell.

[JHC]

I would love to read that post. I looked at his FB page and saw nothing but bodybuilder narcissism.

Sorry, I kittened up and forgot to include the link to it and then lost my Edit option. Here it is. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=p.811235928897585&type=1&theater

[LittleLebowski]

Sorry, I kittened up and forgot to include the link to it and then lost my Edit option. Here it is. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=p.811235928897585&type=1&theater

Excellent and thanks!

I'm not too worried about RDS so about 90% of his Veep screed is not relevant to me.

[JHC]

Nothing against him but I'm not sure he raped it. When it comes to firearms durability and longevity I will listen to those with a deeper understanding than him.

OK. I thought it was pretty scathing to say a new service pistol was not suitable as a service pistol. A "good feeling pistol and trigger" and one to play with but not build a fighting battery on I thought was pretty rough stuff.

[Rich]

Nothing against him but I'm not sure he raped it. When it comes to firearms durability and longevity I will listen to those with a deeper understanding than him.

I agree!

[JHC]

Glock or M&P (or 320 or VP9 or PPQ)

Bruce Gray from his SigForum discussion: " I believe what the Glock has going for it in spades is extreme simplicity at the expense of some refinement."

I can't argue with that! Note that he feels the new 320 a near peer of simplicity with more potential refinement; particularly in the trigger department is my conclusion.

[DocGKR]

Shot yesterday at 25 yards slow fire freestyle at NRA B8 using Fed 147 gr FMJ AE9FP:

M&P9 OEM barrel: 93-0x
G19 OEM barrel: 98-1x
G19 KKM barrel: 98-5x

[JHC]

Shot yesterday at 25 yards slow fire freestyle at NRA B8 using Fed 147 gr FMJ AE9FP:

M&P9 OEM barrel: 93-0x
G19 OEM barrel: 98-1x
G19 KKM barrel: 98-5x

And those 19s are Gen 3 as I recall. Probably would be 100-8x with a VP9. ;)

[DocGKR]

Brand new 3rd gen "V" serial number G19's.

[JHC]

Brand new 3rd gen "V" serial number G19's.

I'm carrying a "W" FDE Gen 3 G19 most of the time now. I do believe it's ejection is more consistent in arc than some of my older guns.

[DocGKR]

The last five new 3rd gen G19's I've shot have been very accurate, but I've had to replace the ejector with a 30274 in two of them and the extractor with an Apex part in one...

[ASH556]

Doc, why 3 vs 4?

[DocGKR]

Why not? I suppose I am still a bit gun shy given our earlier catastrophic problems with 4th gen guns. In addition, we have quite a few gen 3 guns with lots of spare parts on hand, plus the gen 3 pistols generally work out of the box with no major surprises and when something does go wrong, it is usually relatively easy to rectify with a known fix.

[Savage Hands]

After my first erratic ejecting Gen 4 G19 made in early 2012 and it being corrected I've had four newer made Gen 4 9mm's without any problems out the box. Unfortunately most only have a few thousand rounds or less so no super high round counts. YMMV

[ASH556]

Why not? I suppose I am still a bit gun shy given our earlier catastrophic problems with 4th gen guns. In addition, we have quite a few gen 3 guns with lots of spare parts on hand, plus the gen 3 pistols generally work out of the box with no major surprises and when something does go wrong, it is usually relatively easy to rectify with a known fix.

Flatter hump on the grip, better mag release, improved accuracy with the factory barrel. Then again, if you already have the Gen 3's, no need to change. Just, if you're buying new ones, maybe the gen 4 is worth a look?

[Clobbersaurus]

Nothing against him but I'm not sure he raped it. When it comes to firearms durability and longevity I will listen to those with a deeper understanding than him.

I would really love to see Bill Riehl do a complete tear down and assessment of the VP9. That is something I would read with great interest.

[JHC]

Flatter hump on the grip, better mag release, improved accuracy with the factory barrel. Then again, if you already have the Gen 3's, no need to change. Just, if you're buying new ones, maybe the gen 4 is worth a look?

No man. He is pretty down on the Gen 4's from the bad days. I think Glock dumped every sketchy Gen 4 to the west coast. ;)

[Jeep]

No man. He is pretty down on the Gen 4's from the bad days. I think Glock dumped every sketchy Gen 4 to the west coast. ;)

I had a Gen 4 Glock 23 that showed that Glock managed to send some lousy Gen 4's to the East, unfortunately. So I'm currently using used Gen 2 G-19's and they work perfectly. (To be fair, I also have an excellent Gen 4 G17).

[JHC]

I had a Gen 4 Glock 23 that showed that Glock managed to send some lousy Gen 4's to the East, unfortunately. So I'm currently using used Gen 2 G-19's and they work perfectly. (To be fair, I also have an excellent Gen 4 G17).

I've been known to tease that apparently north Georgia got overruns from the SOCOM contracts with the extra QC (completely fictional AFAIK) because our 3 shooters and my area friends couldn't find a bad one. Luck of the draw.

[Jeep]

I've been known to tease that apparently north Georgia got overruns from the SOCOM contracts with the extra QC (completely fictional AFAIK) because our 3 shooters and my area friends couldn't find a bad one. Luck of the draw.

I've been wanting to move to that area ever since I saw how pretty it was during some weeks at Dahlonega 40 years ago. Unfortunately it will never happen--but this would be an additional reason to do it.

[JHC]

I've been wanting to move to that area ever since I saw how pretty it was during some weeks at Dahlonega 40 years ago. Unfortunately it will never happen--but this would be an additional reason to do it.

I live about 30 min south of there but Dahlonega is my favorite town in this state.

[TORCH2J]

I live about 30 min south of there but Dahlonega is my favorite town in this state.

LOL, Must be because of everyone training up at 5th RTB, not to mention Rogers.

[JHC]

LOL, Must be because of everyone training up at 5th RTB, not to mention Rogers.

The senior military college there where both sons attended (one grad and one dropout to 11B ;) ) had a lot to do with it.

[TORCH2J]

The senior military college there where both sons attended (one grad and one dropout to 11B ;) ) had a lot to do with it.

That's a good school. One of my buds is a graduate and is now a BN CDR after being an enlisted swine (JK).

[MGW]

For what ever reason I like the feel of a Gen 3 19 over the Gen 4. It doesn't matter what blackstrap I put on the Gen 4 either. I'm an odd ball though. Should also be noted I own a Gen 4 now and not a Gen 3.

[swarty1]

has there been any fix yet for the m&p 9mm accuracy yet?

[DocGKR]

It has been my experience that the average accuracy of gen 3 G19 and M&P9fs are about the same (90-95) at 25 yds on an NRA B8 slow fire right out of the box. However, it is easier to get Glock to shoot better (98-100); some M&P9's resist efforts to enhance their accuracy...

I have quite a few 3rd gen G19's that will shoot 100-8x (I am striving to get 100-10x) usually with a match barrel (got a 100-6x with an OEM barrel in one G19); I've never done better than 97-5x with an M&P9 full size (usually anything over 95 with an M&P9 has been with a match barrel), although I have run 99-5x with two M&P9c's using OEM barrels.

[DocGKR]

OK, I had a rare day off today, so I went down to the range to get some practice prior to qual's next month. I had two pistols with drop-in, non-fitted stainless steel barrels with me. For kicks and to add info for this thread, I shot an M&P9 full-size with a Compass Lake barrel and a 3rd Gen G19 with KKM barrel back-to-back at 25 yds freestyle slow fire using the same Federal 147 gr FMJ (AE9FP) ammo. Both guns shot essentially the same, as illustrated below:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9CL25yds_zpsa352a62b.jpg

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/G19KKM25yd_zpsecacd05c.jpg

Note that the low left shot in the 9 ring at 7 o'clock with the G19 was the first shot--I knew I pulled it low left right as the shot broke, so it is possible that the G19 could have shot a 99 if I had not blown that first trigger pull...

[tomr]

Think I might give you the 4th X....


OK, I had a rare day off today, so I went down to the range to get some practice prior to qual's next month. I had two pistols with drop-in, non-fitted stainless steel barrels with me. For kicks and to add info for this thread, I shot an M&P9 full-size with a Compass Lake barrel and a 3rd Gen G19 with KKM barrel back-to-back at 25 yds freestyle slow fire using the same Federal 147 gr FMJ (AE9FP) ammo. Both guns shot essentially the same, as illustrated below:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9CL25yds_zpsa352a62b.jpg

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/G19KKM25yd_zpsecacd05c.jpg

Note that the low left shot in the 9 ring at 7 o'clock with the G19 was the first shot--I knew I pulled it low left right as the shot broke, so it is possible that the G19 could have shot a 99 if I had not blown that first trigger pull...

[DocGKR]

It was close, but I did not want to be greedy....

Generally I shoot ever so slightly better (typically 2-3 points) with a match barrel Glock over an M&P9, but not enough to make a huge difference.

I prefer the ergonomics and manual safety of the full size M&P9 over a G17/G19--especially for duty use. I like the size and versatility of the G19 for daily CCW. The M&P9c is a bit small in the grip for me, particularly during reloads and it requires a very solid initial grip to ensure good control in rapid fire.

[Jeep]

Very nice shooting--especially with FMJ--but I'd say it appears you shoot the Glock just a slight bit better than the M&P. Certainly not enough rounds to say for sure--but I think there is a noticeable, though slight, difference.

[DocGKR]

I just completed my M&P Armorer re-certification today.

The continued improvements made by S&W to enhance the function, durability, and serviceability of the M&P are quite impressive.

S&W West Coast LE Rep David Bowler does a good job teaching the system and is quite willing to address all facets of the M&P, including honestly discussing issues that have caused problems and how they have been handled.

[Sigfan26]

I just completed my M&P Armorer re-certification today.

The continued improvements made by S&W to enhance the function, durability, and serviceability of the M&P are quite impressive.

S&W West Coast LE Rep David Bowler does a good job teaching the system and is quite willing to address all facets of the M&P, including honestly discussing issues that have caused problems and how they have been handled.

All while Gaston's chilling in a hot tub with a martini and a woman young enough to be his granddaughter... Gotta love it! NotHing beats Glock simplicity.

[KeeFus]

I just completed my M&P Armorer re-certification today.

The continued improvements made by S&W to enhance the function, durability, and serviceability of the M&P are quite impressive.

S&W West Coast LE Rep David Bowler does a good job teaching the system and is quite willing to address all facets of the M&P, including honestly discussing issues that have caused problems and how they have been handled.

Agreed! I had my recert a couple weeks ago and our new rep Dan Keuhn discussed the same things.

[JV_]

The continued improvements made by S&W to enhance the function, durability, and serviceability of the M&P are quite impressive.
Anything in the accuracy department?

[orionz06]

Anything in the accuracy department?

This is all that really matters. I am not sure the guns have ever become useful yet.

[Sasage]

Is there a MP9 model # we should be on the look out for?

[KeeFus]

Anything in the accuracy department?


I asked that specific question. The reply was that they had changed the locking block and the twist rate in the 9mm. Nothing that had not already been said here. It's obvious to me that during the past 4 years they have been listening to the end users because the products are continually being improved from the previous models.

The slide stop/release has been beefed up. There is a new harder coating being applied to the 9,40,357 Sig and those same models have the new sear housings and trigger bars to allow for a more tactile feel. IIRC, the new finish is currently only available on LE models. The 45 has not got it yet but it should be in early 2015. The .mil contracts were mentioned but nothing that hasn't already been mentioned on PF.


Is there a MP9 model # we should be on the look out for?

The models we handled in class had the new slide stop/releases as well as the new finish. Look for a reinforced slide stop on the newer models. It will be very noticeable in comparison to the older models.

[23JAZ]

So as we approach 2014, I need to standardize on what pistol I am going to carry for the next decade or so--(older, well proven) 3rd gen G19's or mix of M&P9/9c. I'd love to hear your thoughts.[/QUOTE]

If the M&P feels better for you I'd Apex the crap out of that thing, throw in a KKM and see what it can do.

[orionz06]

Continually improving and "there, it's fixed" are very different things.

[JBP55]

So as we approach 2014, I need to standardize on what pistol I am going to carry for the next decade or so--(older, well proven) 3rd gen G19's or mix of M&P9/9c. I'd love to hear your thoughts.


2015, Gen 4 Glocks.

[Jeep]

2015, Gen 4 Glocks.

I agree with this--for 9 mm. For .40, I'd go with the M&P over the 22/23 any day.

[JBP55]

I agree with this--for 9 mm. For .40, I'd go with the M&P over the 22/23 any day.

Was referring to 9mm, I no longer own .40 pistols.

[Rich]

I just completed my M&P Armorer re-certification today.

The continued improvements made by S&W to enhance the function, durability, and serviceability of the M&P are quite impressive.

S&W West Coast LE Rep David Bowler does a good job teaching the system and is quite willing to address all facets of the M&P, including honestly discussing issues that have caused problems and how they have been handled.

Excellent shooting Doctor.

How slow is slow firing?

[stingray]

I read that the 9mm accuracy issued were resolved with a change in barrel twist rate. The improved barrels are marked with a "dot" to the muzzle side of the locking lug. My gun has proven to be both accurate and reliable.

[JV_]

Twist rate was not the issue.

[stingray]

Twist rate was not the issue.

What does the little "dot" mean?

[JV_]

I don't know, but the twist rate was not the issue with their accuracy problems.

[stingray]

I don't know, but the twist rate was not the issue with their accuracy problems.

What was the accuracy problem? From what I read the issues were resolved and to see if the guns had the updated "fix", the barrel is marked with the "dot". I can tell you my full size M&P has the dot. The trigger is much improved from the M&P 40 I use to have. The accuracy of the M&P 9 is quite good.

[Mark]

It seems that that was only part of what they said, they also said locking block. That could have been an issue.

[Mark]

It still seems to me that if you want a new out of the box pistol to run without much worry of various issues popping up and be accurate you are pretty much left with HK and.......as I'm continually finding, the good old Beretta 92, which seems like the real bargain at $500ish.

[mizer67]

It seems that that was only part of what they said, they also said locking block. That could have been an issue.

Changes to the locking block may have helped. The twist rate was never a root cause, but it may have contributed some to the inaccuracy for those that like to run very long bullets flying slowly.

I think the Wealthy Tinkerer might be able to comment with more authority than I, but from everything I've gathered, early unlocking coupled with sloppy barrel fit; shoe horned barrel design to stay consistent between the Compacts and FS, coupled with the method S&W used to treat the 9mm slides have shown to contribute to the inaccuracy of the M&P 9mms.

My last sample of one, circa ~2009, after a couple of trips back to S&W, still couldn't shoot <6" groups at 25 yards, even with the newest dimpled barrel S&W swapped in, YMMV. I'd dumped all my other M&P 9mms and 40's by that point and finally sold this last one in frustration as well.

I really like the pistol, but really don't feel like playing the M&P lottery again when just about any other choice out there you can make in the plastic people popper market can actually perform out of the box at distance.

[DocGKR]

Most of the current M&P9's I've shot have good triggers that get even better after 1000 rounds or so--in fact I strongly prefer the current stock M&P trigger to a current stock standard connector Glock trigger. The current M&P triggers are good enough that an Apex Tactical kit is no longer a mandatory install for me.

Likewise with the ones I've gotten to see and/or shoot, the current M&P9 and current 9 mm Glocks shoot with essentially the same accuracy out of the box.

Several recent high profile OIS incidents using M&P's show that they are quite capable of making hits at targets from 23 to 104 yards...

[45dotACP]

Several recent high profile OIS incidents using M&P's show that they are quite capable of making hits at targets from 23 to 104 yards...

That story about the 104 yard hit always makes me whistle. BRB, going to practice SHO and WHO shooting for a few decades now...

[JBP55]

Shooting under stress one handed at a subject 104 yards away while holding two horses at night and hitting COM with a .40 with a 11" drop involved divine intervention.

[JM Campbell]

Shooting under stress one handed at a subject 104 yards away while holding two horses at night and hitting COM with a .40 with a 11" drop involved divine intervention.
Not unless he tests and practices out to 100yds. I know a few that strive to hit that far out with a pistol. Is it necessary? Of course not, but it will make you a better shooter.

[JBP55]

Not unless he tests and practices out to 100yds. I know a few that strive to hit that far out with a pistol. Is it necessary? Of course not, but it will make you a better shooter.

One handed at night with a BG shooting while holding two horses. Get Real!

[JHC]

One handed at night with a BG shooting while holding two horses. Get Real!

Rather be lucky than good! ;) All credit to him for taking the shot.

[Tamara]

Shooting under stress one handed at a subject 104 yards away while holding two horses at night and hitting COM with a .40 with a 11" drop involved divine intervention.

So... you could go out there and get that same divine intervention? I've heard some aphorism regarding Someone helping those what help themselves. ;)

[JBP55]

Rather be lucky than good! ;) All credit to him for taking the shot.

Absolutely.

[23JAZ]

That story about the 104 yard hit always makes me whistle. BRB, going to practice SHO and WHO shooting for a few decades now...

Don't forget to hold two horses while doing it.

[orionz06]

Most of the current M&P9's I've shot have good triggers that get even better after 1000 rounds or so--in fact I strongly prefer the current stock M&P trigger to a current stock standard connector Glock trigger. The current M&P triggers are good enough that an Apex Tactical kit is no longer a mandatory install for me.

Likewise with the ones I've gotten to see and/or shoot, the current M&P9 and current 9 mm Glocks shoot with essentially the same accuracy out of the box.

Several recent high profile OIS incidents using M&P's show that they are quite capable of making hits at targets from 23 to 104 yards...

The 104 yard shot was with a .40 though. Were they exhibiting the same accuracy issues as the 9mm's?

[Savage Hands]

Most of the current M&P9's I've shot have good triggers that get even better after 1000 rounds or so--in fact I strongly prefer the current stock M&P trigger to a current stock standard connector Glock trigger. The current M&P triggers are good enough that an Apex Tactical kit is no longer a mandatory install for me.

Likewise with the ones I've gotten to see and/or shoot, the current M&P9 and current 9 mm Glocks shoot with essentially the same accuracy out of the box.

Several recent high profile OIS incidents using M&P's show that they are quite capable of making hits at targets from 23 to 104 yards...


The current M&P's keep up with Gen 4 Glocks? That's a serious improvement.

[LockedBreech]

I recently got my Qualified Professional credentials approved at Bud's and they have the LE M&Ps for $399. If the trigger has improved that substantially, my already beleaguered credit cards may be shouldering a new burden.

[breakingtime91]

The 104 yard shot was with a .40 though. Were they exhibiting the same accuracy issues as the 9mm's?

Orionz if it means anything, the 4 recent manf (2013 after) exhibit good accuracy. I was able to shoot three inches at 25 (I suck) and was shooting a reduced idpa steel target at 50 and 75on a walk back drill. Went 4/5 on the first run and 5/5 on the second. Other three full sizes did well to.

[Jeep]

The 104 yard shot was with a .40 though. Were they exhibiting the same accuracy issues as the 9mm's?

I don't think so. Certainly the .40's I've shot were reasonably accurate and I haven't read about a problem with the .40's.

[Sasage]

I'm going to sell off the PPQ and get something else for HD... G19/G17/MP9

The MP9 I shot at the range (not new stock) felt good. Going to go back and compare the Glocks.

[mizer67]

I'm going to sell off the PPQ and get something else for HD... G19/G17/MP9

The MP9 I shot at the range (not new stock) felt good. Going to go back and compare the Glocks.

What can another gun do that the PPQ you have now can't?

[Sasage]

What can another gun do that the PPQ you have now can't?

I wanted to keep the triggers consistent and possibly get a larger carry option.

I tried carrying the PPQ and the subtle difference in size made a difference to me. I would consider possibly a 19 for HD and CCW if I wanted to upgrade from a 26.

I also have a Shield and would be tempted to try a new MP9 for HD (but wouldn't carry due to size.)

I don't have any complaints for the PPQ, other than finding a kydex holster took some time but now seem plentiful.

[DocGKR]

10 rd 25 yd slow fire groups of six M&P9's compared with six 3rd gen G19's, both firing Federal 147 gr AE9FP FMJ:

G19's: 100-7x, 100-4x, 100-3x, 99-4x, 96-2x, 93-3x
M&P9's: 100-3x, 97-2x, 96-3x, 96-2x, 94-3x, 94-3x

[leif]

Doc,

You've indicated on several occasions the gen4 glocks are now good to go. When would you say they started producing the good guns?

[DocGKR]

2014 on seem good to go.