PDA

View Full Version : Shooting one gun



Wheeler
05-22-2011, 08:33 AM
A little bit of background is in order. My primary training focus has revolved around two pistols. The first is a S&W 686 3" six shooter. The second is actually been my EDC in the form of a Ruger LCR. The LCR is a recent acquisition, the 686 I've carried and shot for about 10 years now. I've probably put 20k rounds through the 686.

While shooting an IDPA match this past week, I noticed that trigger on my 686 was dragging, it felt really gritty, and was inconsistent, the pull weight which is usually around 8 pounds would jump up to 14-15 pounds. After three stages, I put it away and finished the final 15 stages with a 3" Model 65.

Man, could I tell a difference. I shoot the 65 occasionally, and shoot it pretty well, but not like the 686. I did ok in the match, but not as well as I should have.

I have heard the saying for years "Beware the man with only one gun, he might know how to use it." I had sort of used that as a training mantra, with the occasional deviation into Glocks or another revolver. What does the guy with one gun do when his gun takes a dump?

Wheeler

orionz06
05-22-2011, 08:41 AM
He uses his back up that is identical.

DonovanM
05-22-2011, 09:16 AM
He uses his back up that is identical.

That's what I do. I only own two pistols and they're the same model.

Although, one has had a significant amount of trigger work done to it, and the other hasn't. Not the smartest of ideas if I'm honest.

If I had the money, I'd own a few more. I'm not really big on the whole "if I'm in a gunfight I turn into a hapless slobbering mess and suddenly can't switch between a DA/SA and a striker fired pistol (for instance)" thing.

agent-smith
05-22-2011, 10:05 AM
Meh.

I've never put much faith in the saying "Beware of the man with only one gun..."; I have quite a few different types of guns, and I seem to do okay with all of them. Shooting/accuracy fundamentals don't really change a whole lot, regardless of the type of firearm.

"Weapons manipulation" such as loading/unloading/reloading/mechanical safeties/etc. differ and the only way to obtain experience is through, well, experience. Personally, I wouldn't want to train under an instructor that would only perform drills/demos with one specific firearm.

Just my $0.02 worth.

JodyH
05-22-2011, 10:23 AM
There are very few people who can shoot multiple platforms at a high level.
I maintain familiarity with multiple guns but the majority of my practice is with my primary pistol.
The fundamentals don't change between a revolver and a H&K P30, it's still front sight-trigger press, but your ability to execute those fundamentals at a high level deteriorates the more variable you introduce.


I have quite a few different types of guns, and I seem to do okay with all of them.
Can you shoot sub-7 second FAST drills with each pistol you own, back to back with no practice rounds to re-familiarize in between runs?

agent-smith
05-22-2011, 10:36 AM
Can you shoot sub-7 second FAST drills with each pistol you own, back to back with no practice rounds to re-familiarize in between runs?

Yes.

Edit - Only if you define "pistol" as "semi-automatic"; I can't shoot sub-7 second FAST drills with my S&W 617 revolver due to the increased time to reload. Well, now that I think about it I've never actually tried a FAST drill with the 617 but I'm willing to bet that it will take longer than 7 seconds.

DocGKR
05-22-2011, 11:09 AM
I always recommend purchasing two or three identical handguns so you can carry one, train with another, and perhaps have a spare at home ready to take the place of a broken one or arm a family member if the need arises. Unless done for collecting/reference collection purposes, having a bunch of different handguns is counter-productive for the majority of shooters.

JV_
05-22-2011, 11:15 AM
Just make sure it's a keeper before you buy those others.

JHC
05-22-2011, 11:35 AM
I always recommend purchasing two or three identical handguns so you can carry one, train with another, and perhaps have a spare at home ready to take the place of a broken one or arm a family member if the need arises. Unless done for collecting/reference collection purposes, having a bunch of different handguns is counter-productive for the majority of shooters.

The best advice there is. The old saying about "one gun" is a non-starter when taken literally. I apply this to my carry and HD battery. I do not argue that someone who has built some skill should never work out with other platforms however.

JHC
05-22-2011, 11:44 AM
There are very few people who can shoot multiple platforms at a high level.
I maintain familiarity with multiple guns but the majority of my practice is with my primary pistol.
The fundamentals don't change between a revolver and a H&K P30, it's still front sight-trigger press, but your ability to execute those fundamentals at a high level deteriorates the more variable you introduce.


Can you shoot sub-7 second FAST drills with each pistol you own, back to back with no practice rounds to re-familiarize in between runs?

I'm with Agent Smith on this. If you can really shoot a pistol, you can really shoot numerous different types of pistols well. Very well.

The FAST drill is but one of hundreds of measures and cool as it is, it is not the first and only commandment of gun handling and the back to back with no fam standard doesn't really create an argument on its face for not learning multiple platforms.

But yeah I'll bet I could do that if I owned a P30 or still owned a BHP and P7 and I ain't shit but I've got lots of reps with all of the above except the P30.

VolGrad
05-22-2011, 12:20 PM
Just make sure it's a keeper before you buy those others.

Sounds like a man speaking from experience. I agree with this though. Try it, run it a while, if you like it then get at least 1 or 2 more just like it.

JodyH
05-22-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm with Agent Smith on this. If you can really shoot a pistol, you can really shoot numerous different types of pistols well. Very well.

But yeah I'll bet I could do that if I owned a P30 or still owned a BHP and P7 and I ain't shit but I've got lots of reps with all of the above except the P30.
We have to define what shooting "well" and "very well" means.
There have been multiple topics on this subject.
But most people I know who swap guns constantly don't shoot nearly as "well" as they think they do.

Many have tried... most fail at a sub-7 sec. FAST (without gaming it) with their primary gun much less a P30, P7 and BHP back to back.

I'm always willing to be impressed though.
:cool:

TGS
05-22-2011, 01:13 PM
I own firearms for more than just squeezing out as much as I can in one specific role, so I own several different types for various reasons. If I made twice my current income or was on a busy full time tactical team, sure. To own 3 identical handguns to me is just absurd because I make $62k a year and am not on a tactical team.

If there was one perfect food, sure, we could just eat that all day everyday our whole lives. I mean, hey that's what's most beneficial, so why not? I really do enjoy the taste of steak, hamburgers, italian hoagies and a good tomato pie, though, so I'm going to eat them.

You can all prepare for the apocalypse and that one perfect moment where your .12 vs .17 split will make the difference and live life like robots if you'd prefer. I'll be busy enjoying life in the meantime and buying everything at half cost since you don't want them :) Also in the meantime, I'll be practicing to get down to a 7 second FAST when I can so I can have some decent proficiency with it. I carry a gun for protecting my life and others, not living life to carry a gun and be as good as possible with it. I know that's like stabbing a knife into the hearts of many of you here, but some of us are just normal people like that.

So, if my P2000 goes down, I break out my FNX 9, P7 or S&W 642. Maybe even my S&W 19-4, or even the old Mauser. If they all go down, I'll just go outside and enjoy life without a gun on me, because it is indeed possible to do such. I'm really not that concerned, and if I was I'd be seeing a doctor for anxiety disorders by order of my family.....

I guess it just comes down to what your goal is.

TGS
05-22-2011, 01:21 PM
I own firearms for more than just squeezing out as much as I can in one specific role, so I own several different types for various reasons. If I made twice my current income or was on a busy full time tactical team, sure. To own 3 identical handguns to me is just absurd because I make $62k a year and am not on a tactical team.

If there was one perfect food, sure, we could just eat that all day everyday our whole lives. I mean, hey that's what's most beneficial, so why not? I really do enjoy the taste of steak, hamburgers, italian hoagies and a good tomato pie, though, so I'm going to eat them.

You can all prepare for the apocalypse and that one perfect moment where your .12 vs .17 split will make the difference and live life like robots if you'd prefer. I'll be busy enjoying life in the meantime and buying everything at half cost since you don't want them :) Also in the meantime, I'll be practicing to get down to a 7 second FAST when I can so I can have some decent proficiency with it. I carry a gun for protecting my life and others, not living life to carry a gun and be as good as possible with it. I know that's like stabbing a knife into the hearts of many of you here, but some of us are just normal people like that.

So, if my P2000 goes down, I break out my FNX 9, P7 or S&W 642. Maybe even my S&W 19-4, or even the old Mauser. If they all go down, I'll just go outside and enjoy life without a gun on me, because it is indeed possible to do such. I'm really not that concerned, and if I was I'd be seeing a doctor for anxiety disorders by order of my family.....

I guess it just comes down to what your goal is.

Flame suit on.

SLG
05-22-2011, 02:10 PM
This thread has definitely gotten a little silly. I own many different guns, for many different reasons. Some I shoot very little, some not at all. The only ones I shoot a lot (relative term) are the ones that I actually carry everyday, or need for a bad day at work. Those are the most important to me and my family. You may have other priorities, and that's your business.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying lots of guns, for whatever purpose.

Doc and others are pretty much 100% correct though, when you are talking about getting as good as you can be (whatever that means to YOU), with as little chance of messing up under some kind of stress.

Once you're "pretty good" (another relative term), I think there is a lot to be gained from shooting other types of guns, but the core of your practice should always be with the one that matters most to you.

Trigger time is trigger time, when it comes to learning or improving your ability to SHOOT. You can transfer skills from one gun to another pretty easily if you think a little critically about them. Dedicated practice on the most important gun in YOUR life is the only way to get as good as possible at RUNNING that gun, not just SHOOTING it.

It does seem that much of this site, and it's members, are interested in getting better, not just coming on here to talk about all the cool guns they own. Nothing wrong with that either.

JConn
05-22-2011, 02:30 PM
I'm feeling adventurous so I'll toss in my two cents. If you talk to pretty much any professional athlete, driver, pilot, musician, or yes shooter, I'm sure the vast majority of them would say they switch platforms/gear/etc as little as possible because it has an effect on consistency. This is not to say those professionals are not capable of using other gear well. Phil Mickelson (or insert your favorite athlete here) probably trains on the same gear every day very rarely making changes. This gear is also the same gear he will play tournaments with. He does this to perform at the highest level possible. That being said he could walk into play it again sports and buy a $100 set of clubs and still beat 99.9% of the population. Along the same lines if you bring 5 different weapons platforms to the range every time, you probably will improve somewhat, but not nearly as much as if you trained with one platform. I'm rambling, but really, if you train with glocks all the time, but want to shoot your 1911 every once in a while...great. If you're constantly fiddling with and switching your gear...bad.

I think the beware the person with one gun saying probably has more to do with that person spending their money/time/effort on becoming a better shooter rather than finding the next best thing to buy.

Took me too long to post, SLG said it better...disregard.

JV_
05-22-2011, 03:10 PM
Sounds like a man speaking from experience.Yea, most recently with the Gen4 19.

JHC
05-22-2011, 03:45 PM
We have to define what shooting "well" and "very well" means.
There have been multiple topics on this subject.
But most people I know who swap guns constantly :

True, the devil be in the details. And swapping guns for many means changing before they developed great skill with the prior. Your pic looks like a young man - to me anyway. ;) But imagine if you had a half a decade of serious work with each of three platforms. You'd rock them all. :D

John Hearne
05-22-2011, 04:21 PM
The key to "only one gun" is to have several identical guns or a butt load of spare parts. I got 10 rounds downrange Saturday morning when the takedown lever failed. I went home pulled a lever from another Sig and put the gun back in-service. I'll order more parts tomorrow.

TCinVA
05-22-2011, 06:11 PM
As with most other things involving human beings, there is a bell curve. There are some people who will be awful no matter what they pick up at the left end of the curve. There are some people who are so skilled that even picking up an unfamiliar weapon won't push them below "good enough" or "good" at the other end.
For the rest of us, it matters. The problem is that lots of people think of themselves as being further on the curve than they really are.

NGCSUGrad09
05-22-2011, 07:48 PM
Focus on one platform and getting to where you excel with that platform. Play with other guns AFTER you have developed your skills. Starting out with rotating between several guns does make it harder than sticking to one gun.

Since other non firearm relations have been made... Think about learning to drive a car. Would it be easier to learn on a single type or if you were rotating between a manual transmission sports car, a 4x4 truck/SUV and a station wagon?

I prescribe to the one platform idea... aka Glock 9mm family or Smith M&P family,etc. While there are minute differences the controls are identical, procedures for running the gun are the same, etc. From personal experience, competing with a Glock 34, carrying a Glock 19 and mixing practice between the two has worked well for me.

I strive to have a clone of my carry gun. If it breaks, is stolen, taken for evidence, etc I'll have another ready to go. While I have other firearms that are "carry-worthy", it'll take a lot to break them out. I don't change guns when the seasons change, the fashion police intervenes, I get bored etc. I want the gun that I am the most confident with, perform the best with and will give me the biggest advantage when I need it most.

JHC
05-22-2011, 08:01 PM
Focus on one platform and getting to where you excel with that platform. Play with other guns AFTER you have developed your skills. Starting out with rotating between several guns does make it harder than sticking to one gun.

Since other non firearm relations have been made... Think about learning to drive a car. Would it be easier to learn on a single type or if you were rotating between a manual transmission sports car, a 4x4 truck/SUV and a station wagon?

.

Driving. Great analogy. Once driving skills are gained . . .

Wheeler
05-22-2011, 08:34 PM
Wow! A lot of great thoughts put forth. FWIW, I finished third in my class in the match. I should have been running neck and neck with the winner. Overall there was approximatll 30 seconds difference over 18 stages. I did pretty well with my Model 65, just not as well as I should have with my 686.

I might have screwed myself to a certain extent by picking that particular 686 as a go-to gun, as it's one of the CS versions with a 3" barrel. It's pretty tough to find a replacement as a backup.

Using the IDPA classifier as a benchmark, I can shoot relatively close scores between the two guns. Manipulation is mostly the same, just the differences between an L-frame and a K-frame. Both have 3" barrels, so the balance is the same, if not the weight. The 686 has a shorter reset stroke than the 65, as well as a staged trigger. On paper it seems that I could shoot one as well as the other.

So was it the fact that my mental comfort zone was taken away? Was it a hardware manipulation problem that I have previously not noticed? I'm still cyphering that one out.

I appreciate all the great posts.

JHC
05-23-2011, 05:50 AM
it's one of the CS versions with a 3" barrel. So was it the fact that my mental comfort zone was taken away? Was it a hardware manipulation problem that I have previously not noticed? I'm still cyphering that one out.

I appreciate all the great posts.

Wow, I had one of the 4" CS versions back in the early '90's and foolishly didn't hang onto it. Nice wheelies. I always thought that L frame ran faster than my k frames simply for the weight/mass of the frame/barrel/lug without getting as unweildy as the N frames. Don't know if it would be any more complicated than that.

I don't think you'd suffer much from running a more common 4" L frame of your choosing as a primary training and comp wheelgun so you aren't always beating your CS 3" to death.

ToddG
05-23-2011, 08:32 AM
I carry a gun for protecting my life and others, not living life to carry a gun and be as good as possible with it.

At the moment you need that gun to protect your life or the life of a family member, you're going to wish you'd become "as good as possible with it."

JodyH hit the nail on the head and the comments from DocGKR et al hammer it home. Dedicated focus is the quickest path to success.

I'd agree that the FAST is probably not the best assessment of a firearm. Instead, I'd ask you to shoot something more comprehensive like the Hackathorn Standards (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?521-Hackathorn-Standards) with each gun. Can you switch from trigger to trigger without any noticeable loss in performance? Do you automatically and preconsciously adjust to different manual of arms? Can you account for different zeros and trajectories when you start shooting at longer ranges or from less common positions like prone? Etc.

I can pick up any gun in my house, even my AR, and shoot it better than someone who sucks. Hell, I can probably shoot it better than someone who is moderately competent. But the gun I shoot best -- best by far -- is the one I dedicate my practice to. And in the unfortunate event that I need a gun somewhere other than a firing range, I want the be shooting my best with the gun I shoot best.

TGS
05-23-2011, 12:53 PM
At the moment you need that gun to protect your life or the life of a family member, you're going to wish you'd become "as good as possible with it."

JodyH hit the nail on the head and the comments from DocGKR et al hammer it home. Dedicated focus is the quickest path to success.

I'd agree that the FAST is probably not the best assessment of a firearm. Instead, I'd ask you to shoot something more comprehensive like the Hackathorn Standards (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?521-Hackathorn-Standards) with each gun. Can you switch from trigger to trigger without any noticeable loss in performance? Do you automatically and preconsciously adjust to different manual of arms? Can you account for different zeros and trajectories when you start shooting at longer ranges or from less common positions like prone? Etc.

I can pick up any gun in my house, even my AR, and shoot it better than someone who sucks. Hell, I can probably shoot it better than someone who is moderately competent. But the gun I shoot best -- best by far -- is the one I dedicate my practice to. And in the unfortunate event that I need a gun somewhere other than a firing range, I want the be shooting my best with the gun I shoot best.

Your little quip at the beginning is not new to me. Some of us deal with that mentality in our professions and not just as a hobby.

No, I can't do that with all my firearms. Sure, I might think that exact phrase as you mentioned as I am dying. There's a million other eventualities in life that I would probably think that same theme during the worst case. I can't prepare for every situation and thinking anyone can do such is completely unrealistic.

I do pretty much all of my practice with my P2000, the other guns are for different purposes but I wouldn't hesitate to carry them. Moreover, I'm not going to waste $700+ on another P2000 when that money can be better spent on ensuring the well being of myself and my family. Think of it as a racecar.......ever hear the phrase that 90% of the cars performance costs $100k, but that last 10% costs the remaining $900k of it's price? Some of us don't have that extra bit. I can't commit what precious amounts of activity my back can take anymore, more money, or more time away from my family than I already do in order to get that last 10% since it's not THAT crucial a part of my life.

I do what I can when I can, and my main focus in life is not training for gunfights at home or on the streets as there's a million other ways my life could get messed up, or get myself killed and by buying 2-3 pistols of the same type, I'd be neglecting those other facets.

To imply that someone is irresponsible for not purchasing 2-3 of the same exact gun for practice/carry is not only absurd but it's insulting. Not all of us are you, and not all of us can do what you do. That's cool that you're proud of your weapons skills and the amount of practice you can put forth, good for you. I'm not as good, and I'm fine with that.......nor is there anything wrong with accepting that and getting on with life.

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

See you in the Culpeper "Get SOM" class.

JV_
05-23-2011, 01:00 PM
To imply that someone is irresponsible for not purchasing 2-3 of the same exact gun for practice/carry is not only absurd but it's insulting.I didn't read or get that implication in any of these posts. Perhaps I'm just being dense.

I think the point is that if you want to master being a fantastic shooter (or getting as close as you can) and excel at driving a gun, don't keep changing stuff around.

DocGKR
05-23-2011, 01:12 PM
I think the point is that if a person can afford owning a Sig P226 Navy, a Kimber Ultra Carry II, and Springfield XDM, they just as easily could have purchased 2 or 3 identical G19's or M&P's.

agent-smith
05-23-2011, 01:20 PM
At the moment you need that gun to protect your life or the life of a family member, you're going to wish you'd become "as good as possible with it."

JodyH hit the nail on the head and the comments from DocGKR et al hammer it home. Dedicated focus is the quickest path to success...

Yes, I agree that you'll master a given gun faster if you practice solely (sp?) with "just the single gun" but once you reached a level of proficiency then I don't see any reason to not gain proficiency with another pistol as well.

For example, I've avidly followed your long-term tests of the M&P, then P30, then G19, etc. so you seem to be changing things occasionally as well. I do most of my training/practice with my G19 but I don't "avoid" shooting my Beretta 92/M9, or 1911, or BHP if I feel like mixing it up and I also want to stay "fresh" on the different pistols.

Heck, in a way I think changing things around has really improved my shooting as starting a .40 caliber Glock (I didn't know any better) and doing so really forced me to develop a proper grip to manage recoil, etc. Then, I decided to train the the Beretta 92/M9 and I really think working on the DA trigger helped me understand trigger control/"prepping the trigger", etc. a lot. When I trained with the BHP for awhile I found that, due to the longer trigger reset, it forced me to pay more attention to, well, resetting the trigger when previously it wasn't something I really thought about.

So, as long as you have a good foundation in place I don't think there is a major drawback to changing-it-up now and then. And, I should clarify that once I decided to work on pistols (I've always been, and always will be primarily "a rifle guy") I really ONLY shot the Glock 23 (and attended several pistol courses with it) and fired several thousand rounds through it before I decided to shoot something else (i.e. I shot the G23 exclusively for maybe 3-5 yrs). I agree that if I started out shooting a G23 one day, a 1911 the next, the Beretta the following range trip, etc. it would have taken a lot longer to get to obtain proficiency.

TCinVA
05-23-2011, 01:26 PM
I think the point is that if a person can afford owning a Sig P226 Navy, a Kimber Ultra Carry II, and Springfield XDM, they just as easily could have purchased 2 or 3 identical G19's or M&P's.

Precisely. There's nothing wrong with firearms as a hobby or collecting firearms because you like them. I own a whole bunch of handguns because I'm an admitted junkie who gets all twitchy when I see that some outfit like Aim Surplus is selling former Bundespolizei Walther PP pistols. That's like crack to me.

...but I also make a distinction between firearms as a hobby and firearms for serious social purposes. I spend most of my time and effort using the pistol I carry at the range to build proficiency. I ensure I have a backup that uses the same magazines, ammo, and carry equipment in case it breaks, develops an issue, or gets taken for an extended vacation inside a police property room. To buy two P30's I had to sell a couple of pistols I bought earlier on for collector's interest. I lost no sleep letting go of a couple of handguns I hadn't even fired a box of ammo through (between the two) to get a couple of carry guns that solved my AIWB safety concerns.

I don't let the hobby get too much in the way of the more practical aspects that comprise my primary interest in owning, using, and training with firearms. I still shoot my "fun" guns and enjoy doing so...but my primary focus is on the stuff I'm going to reach for if someone is trying to kill me. This isn't an either or situation.

The snag about this whole self defense thing is that you never know when your life will intersect with some criminal vermin who will insist that you must kill him if you wish to continue living. There are certainly lots of other things in life that can alter it, but having the experience of being on the wrong end of a gun I can tell you that this particular way to have your life screwed up sucketh mightily. I don't have much control over whether or not I get hit by a tornado, but I do have some ability to positively alter the results of an encounter with a sociopath intent on threatening me or my family. It's not the main focus of my life....I have a full time job that has nothing to do with firearms, an academic career that has nothing to do with firearms, and social/family obligations that do not generally require using a firearm to kill people. Nevertheless, in going about my daily life I have run across people who sought to do me or my family harm. I mean, you're talking to a guy whose church was robbed at gunpoint, and who witnessed an elderly member of that church get pistol whipped into the dirt by a group of punks. The ability to shoot sub-6 second FAST drills and the appropriate armament to go with it would have come in real handy about then.

I determined some time ago that I don't need to be on a tac team to find that I'm forced to deal with the sort of problem that they would send a tac team to handle. I try to think about what I would want in that moment and work my way back to what I can reasonably do.

jslaker
05-23-2011, 03:07 PM
For example, I've avidly followed your long-term tests of the M&P, then P30, then G19, etc. so you seem to be changing things occasionally as well.

The rather huge caveat here is that Todd's "changing things up" after dedicating 50-100k rounds to any given gun. That's certainly at the extreme side of things, but I don't think you can fairly compare that to the guy that's buying a new gun every 6 months.

agent-smith
05-23-2011, 03:37 PM
^ I agree completely, and I should have been more-specific.

Of course, just because someone of TLG's experience/skill/etc. is able to shoot multiple guns extremely well doesn't mean that everyone is going to be able to do so, regardless of how long they practice.

JHC
05-23-2011, 05:22 PM
^ I agree completely, and I should have been more-specific.

Of course, just because someone of TLG's experience/skill/etc. is able to shoot multiple guns extremely well doesn't mean that everyone is going to be able to do so, regardless of how long they practice.

I got your original point. And of course, it doesn't take an accomplished pistol shooter 50-100K rounds to get up to speed on a new pistol either.

agent-smith
05-23-2011, 06:49 PM
I got your original point. And of course, it doesn't take an accomplished pistol shooter 50-100K rounds to get up to speed on a new pistol either.

Yeah, I was trying to be polite earlier but for the record I really didn't see anywhere where Todd took 50-100k rounds before he could shoot a given pistol. Meh; to each their own. I'll continue to shoot/enjoy multiple guns.

jslaker
05-23-2011, 07:32 PM
Yeah, I was trying to be polite earlier but for the record I really didn't see anywhere where Todd took 50-100k rounds before he could shoot a given pistol. Meh; to each their own. I'll continue to shoot/enjoy multiple guns.

I didn't say it took him that long. I said that it wasn't a fair comparison to say "but Todd changes guns too" because while it may be every 6 months to a year, in that time he puts more rounds through those guns than many people will in their lifetime. Like I said, it's a serious extreme.

But at the same time, you've got that same guy that shoots that many rounds a year in this very thread saying that he can't perform at his best on any random platform outside his current focus. That's really the whole point the rest of us are trying to get at - not settling for "good enough."

ToddG
05-24-2011, 10:16 AM
To imply that someone is irresponsible for not purchasing 2-3 of the same exact gun for practice/carry is not only absurd but it's insulting.

I never said such a thing and do not appreciate the implication to the contrary. The issue at hand is whether having a small battery of different guns is detrimental to skill level compared to having a single gun or system. Money has nothing to do with it except insofar as someone who can afford a Glock, an HK, an M&P, and a Kimber can probably afford two or three of the same gun instead.

You said you put almost all of your training into one pistol. I'm hard pressed to understand where you think we are in disagreement, then.

ToddG
05-24-2011, 10:19 AM
And of course, it doesn't take an accomplished pistol shooter 50-100K rounds to get up to speed on a new pistol either.

Nope, just me. :cool:

TGS
05-24-2011, 11:09 AM
You said you put almost all of your training into one pistol. I'm hard pressed to understand where you think we are in disagreement, then.

Because I haven't bought identical P2000's to serve as a backup and backups to my backup.

ToddG
05-24-2011, 11:15 AM
Because I haven't bought identical P2000's to serve as a backup and backups to my backup.

Please find something I said in this thread prior to your post in which I even mentioned having multiple copies of the same gun. You won't be able to.

There is a huge difference between "My practice with my gun is limited by time/money" (which is fine and true of almost everyone, myself included) and "My practice with my gun is limited because I have so many guns to practice with." It's the latter issue we are trying to correct.

fuse
05-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Because I haven't bought identical P2000's to serve as a backup and backups to my backup.

What is your plan if your P2000 goes down/takes a vacation with the cops?

TGS
05-24-2011, 02:24 PM
There is a huge difference between "My practice with my gun is limited by time/money" (which is fine and true of almost everyone, myself included) and "My practice with my gun is limited because I have so many guns to practice with." It's the latter issue we are trying to correct.

Gotcha.


What is your plan if your P2000 goes down/takes a vacation with the cops?

I just carry a different gun, like my P7, S&W 642, or FNX9.

Ed L
05-24-2011, 05:51 PM
I think the obvious issue is that most people who are into guns are into them as a hobby as well as self defense, and the hobby aspect of getting, shooting, and owning different guns can get in the way of spending the equal amount of time and money on a single platform, which would be the best way to build skill.

On the contrary side, *many* of the people I know who are not duty bound to carry guns and buy a single gun soley for self defense tend to regard the gun as a fire extinguisher. They buy it, shoot it once or three times and put it away. It's the hobby aspect that often keeps them shooting and building skills. But this aspect often involves buying and shooting different guns, dividing their time between platforms.

Obviously some members of this forum have transcended this so that they practice with a small number of guns.

fuse
05-24-2011, 06:17 PM
I just carry a different gun, like my P7, S&W 642, or FNX9.

The point is that you're admittedly not as good with these.

Either a problem or not, depending on your outlook

JHC
05-24-2011, 06:20 PM
Interesting discovery this shooter found.


http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?985-HK-woes

CCT125US
05-26-2011, 12:45 PM
Precisely. There's nothing wrong with firearms as a hobby or collecting firearms because you like them. I own a whole bunch of handguns because I'm an admitted junkie who gets all twitchy when I see that some outfit like Aim Surplus is selling former Bundespolizei Walther PP pistols. That's like crack to me.

...but I also make a distinction between firearms as a hobby and firearms for serious social purposes. I spend most of my time and effort using the pistol I carry at the range to build proficiency. I ensure I have a backup that uses the same magazines, ammo, and carry equipment in case it breaks, develops an issue, or gets taken for an extended vacation inside a police property room. To buy two P30's I had to sell a couple of pistols I bought earlier on for collector's interest. I lost no sleep letting go of a couple of handguns I hadn't even fired a box of ammo through (between the two) to get a couple of carry guns that solved my AIWB safety concerns.

I don't let the hobby get too much in the way of the more practical aspects that comprise my primary interest in owning, using, and training with firearms. I still shoot my "fun" guns and enjoy doing so...but my primary focus is on the stuff I'm going to reach for if someone is trying to kill me. This isn't an either or situation.

The snag about this whole self defense thing is that you never know when your life will intersect with some criminal vermin who will insist that you must kill him if you wish to continue living. There are certainly lots of other things in life that can alter it, but having the experience of being on the wrong end of a gun I can tell you that this particular way to have your life screwed up sucketh mightily. I don't have much control over whether or not I get hit by a tornado, but I do have some ability to positively alter the results of an encounter with a sociopath intent on threatening me or my family. It's not the main focus of my life....I have a full time job that has nothing to do with firearms, an academic career that has nothing to do with firearms, and social/family obligations that do not generally require using a firearm to kill people. Nevertheless, in going about my daily life I have run across people who sought to do me or my family harm. I mean, you're talking to a guy whose church was robbed at gunpoint, and who witnessed an elderly member of that church get pistol whipped into the dirt by a group of punks. The ability to shoot sub-6 second FAST drills and the appropriate armament to go with it would have come in real handy about then.

I determined some time ago that I don't need to be on a tac team to find that I'm forced to deal with the sort of problem that they would send a tac team to handle. I try to think about what I would want in that moment and work my way back to what I can reasonably do.

Very well said. I believe in being prepared and watchfull of what you can control. I enjoy shooting, collecting, instructing and talking pretty much anything gun related. With that being said I have lost more friends to car accidents and bad life choices than being shot..... so I drive a safe (relative term) car, still look both ways before driving through an intersection on green, do my best to make good life choices and actually listen to that voice of reason, avoid bad parts of town, lock my doors at night, teach my kids right from wrong and how to think for themselves, and..... carry a gun every where I am legally allowed to do so.

JeffJ
05-27-2011, 10:44 AM
What is your plan if your P2000 goes down/takes a vacation with the cops?

I'll chime in late and hopefully not be too presumptious to answer a question asked of someone else.

In my case it's a G19 - and the answer is that I'll carry my G34 until the LGS opens and I can pick up another G19

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to have another G19, or that I refuse to buy another G19 or even that I can't buy another G19, but I don't have one now and I don't think its that big of a deal. Of all the things that might keep me up at night, worrying about whether or not by CCW is going to crash is not one of them.

If you are concerned about the reliabiltiy of your CCW ie. going down - then you probably shouldn't carry it and while taking an extended vaction with the cops is a real possiblity I think that all of us civilians realize that it is a very remote one as that it would require us pulling our gun and that is unlikely - not impossible, just unlikely.

For those of us civilians that carry, I think (and I know that I don't speak for everyone) that we've made a decison to not look at the odds, which state that we won't need a gun, and plan for the eventuallity that we might be in that very small group of people that do and that gambling wrong on that isn't worth it. I don't think that consequences of not having an identical backup CCW are the same.

JHC
05-27-2011, 12:03 PM
Fair enough. We are 3 deep in 17s and four deep in 19s. ;) I figure that the best gun ever made can be one more round from failing so I tend to not beat too hard training on the primary carry guns.

David Armstrong
05-27-2011, 12:15 PM
My solution has always been same platforms but different models, usually for the concealment role. Colt 1911 backed by a LW Commander. Glock 17 backed by a Glock 19. S&W Model 65 backed by a Model 12.

JodyH
05-27-2011, 03:36 PM
My solution has always been same platforms but different models, usually for the concealment role. Colt 1911 backed by a LW Commander. Glock 17 backed by a Glock 19. S&W Model 65 backed by a Model 12.
While I didn't set out down that path, that's where I ended up.
H&K P30, P2000, P2000Sk, all V2 LEM with Trijicon NS.

ToddG
05-27-2011, 03:54 PM
If you are concerned about the reliabiltiy of your CCW ie. going down - then you probably shouldn't carry it...

I've seen too many guns of all makes and models fail to trust any one random example of any pistol.

I see two reasonable options: a dedicated training gun or an identical (or nearly so) backup. In either case, it means having two. That may not be possible for everyone, of course, but it is the ideal.

Wheeler
05-27-2011, 04:12 PM
I've seen too many guns of all makes and models fail to trust any one random example of any pistol.

I see two reasonable options: a dedicated training gun or an identical (or nearly so) backup. In either case, it means having two. That may not be possible for everyone, of course, but it is the ideal.

That tears it. Anyone got a 686 CS-2 for sale? Or trade? :)

WDW
05-27-2011, 04:20 PM
I have and have had many handguns. I am a gun nut and am addicted to firerams, particularly pistols. However, the main gun I carry and practice with is the Sig P226 9mm. The bottom line is, have as many pistols as you want but train with the one you use.

JeffJ
05-28-2011, 07:22 AM
I've seen too many guns of all makes and models fail to trust any one random example of any pistol.

I see two reasonable options: a dedicated training gun or an identical (or nearly so) backup. In either case, it means having two. That may not be possible for everyone, of course, but it is the ideal.

So what are your thoughts on spending the majority of training with say a G34 - and carrying the G19. This is what I do, and from shooting things like Dot Torture and the FAST test I find that I'm equally mediocre with both pistols, a little faster with G34 and a little more accurate at longer ranges, but I can conceal the 19 so that's what I carry.

ToddG
05-28-2011, 08:28 AM
So what are your thoughts on spending the majority of training with say a G34 - and carrying the G19.

The real question to ask is why practice with the G34 if you're going to carry the G19? If you shoot the G34 better is it because it has a longer sight radius or because you've become better habituated to the G34's sight picture? What if you could get all (or at least some) of that better performance by dedicating yourself to the G19? Then you'd be maximizing your skill on the gun you're actually going to depend on in a life or death struggle.

Having a pair of G19s instead of a G34/G19 combo also means other little advantages like common mags, common holsters (though admittedly you can fit a G19 into almost any G34 holster so if your CCW holsters are all set up for the G34 you're good there).

Beyond that, the G34-practice G19-carry combo certainly is close to the ideal assuming they've got the same trigger setup, same sight setup, share the same grip (i.e., no skateboard tape on just the G34). The major thing I'd be looking for is the reload. If the G19 grip is short enough that you can pinch your hand when reload at speed under stress you need to be aware of that and realize that your normal reload technique that works fine with the G34 might actually cause you to hurt yourself when the G19 is in your hands.

section8usmc
07-26-2011, 09:51 AM
After I got out, I decided I wanted a pistol of my own. Did a lot of looking, shooting etc. I decided on the H&K USP.45. Well, I'm the kind of person that likes the extended cut, or special edition movies. I've gotten better at controlling myself since. Told my local dealer and friend, that I was ready to order my USP. He got back to me the next day, and asked "which color?". "What ? I thought they only came in black." "Well, this year they are doing a special limited run of three colors." He told me what they were, then showed me the pictures. Damn it ! Do I have OCD or what ? I did happen to have the money at the time too. Needless to say, I bought all three.

While not everyone can do it, or afford it, I think if you can, it's worth having at least two identical pistols. There is good reason the military and LE does it. Same magazines, ammo, etc, and they should all shoot and aim the same, or really damn close, from the factory. Of course there is not much that can be done about a crappy or worn out gun, but I agree that you can get 2 really good guns for about the price of a pricey one. I think I would maybe have done that then, if Wisconsin had concealed carry and I only had $ for the one USP as I planned. Since concealing, or even carrying for that matter wasn't an issue, and I had the money, I did it.

I am currently saving right now, as concealed carry will come into play this fall. I won't even need to worry about it until next spring most likely, as heavy winter clothing here could hide an M1 tank. However, being skinny as I am, I will be getting the P2000SK .40 for my summer carry weapon, and will get a duplicate as soon as I can afford to. It just makes good sense to me. Not only that, even though I will have 5 pistols, for all intents and purposes of feel, accuracy, and the like, I will have but 2.

jetfire
07-26-2011, 11:38 AM
You bought three USP45s?

irishshooter
07-26-2011, 12:07 PM
Well, I'm the kind of person that likes the extended cut, or special edition movies. I've gotten better at controlling myself since. ......Needless to say, I bought all three. :confused:

wow. i can see buying a FS M&P and then the Compact for carry. well i guess if you like a platform and you can do it, why not. i probably wouldve spen t more money on ammo and training, but thats just me.

section8usmc
07-26-2011, 12:15 PM
You bought three USP45s?

In all fairness to myself, I was basically single, was splitting all of the bills with, let's call her a roommate. I had the money available at the time. I got a good deal on two of them. For those who have not seen them, they came in a blue/gray like you find in Russian or night camo, desert tan, and olive drab. I absolutely love them. But, yes...I couldn't help myself ! I'm married now, very happily, and wouldn't do such things off the cuff anymore, at least not without running it by the other half. I have not regretted it once though ! I think of it as a complete set ! Lol

Tamara
07-26-2011, 03:31 PM
You bought three USP45s?

As Shootin' Buddy says, you find a gun you like and buy four identical copies: One in your holster, one in the safe, one off getting fixed, and one stored in a safe place away from your house just in case...

MDS
07-26-2011, 04:05 PM
As Shootin' Buddy says, you find a gun you like and buy four identical copies: One in your holster, one in the safe, one off getting fixed, and one stored in a safe place away from your house just in case...

I don't suppose this Shootin' Buddy of yours sells guns for a living...? ;)

Seriously, though, I have way too many guns from years of on-again, off-again enthusiasm. It's been about a year since I started "getting serious" and I'm getting ready to sell most of that crap off to fund another pair of G19s. So, yeah, 4 copies of the one you like sounds about right. :)

Tamara
07-26-2011, 04:20 PM
I think it's cool and totally okay to have lots of guns. Heck, I have dozens of old military rifles, pocket pistols, and antique S&W revolvers.

And then I have the guns I use, which are ugly and pretty much a bunch of duplicates. :o

jetfire
07-26-2011, 04:38 PM
As Shootin' Buddy says, you find a gun you like and buy four identical copies: One in your holster, one in the safe, one off getting fixed, and one stored in a safe place away from your house just in case...

It's more that for what three USP45s cost you could have bought a personal security guard instead. ;-)

jslaker
07-26-2011, 05:21 PM
Bought one M&P already. Plan to buy a second after I transition to it as a carry piece. Probably pick up an M&P9C for when I need something a bit more discrete.

This is one reason why I bought an M&P instead of a P30. ;)

Tamara
07-26-2011, 07:19 PM
It's more that for what three USP45s cost you could have bought a personal security guard instead. ;-)

Shootin' Buddy has, what, four? Five? completely identical Les Baer TRS 1911s...? (And every year when one gets sent back to Baer, Les calls SB and asks if he wants the beat-up gun refinished. And the answer is always negative. And Les always says "I can tell which of you guys have been to Thunder Ranch and which of you bought the guns 'cause they'd look pretty in your gun safe.)

Cost is what it is. Find your gun and buy it. And then buy three more. ;)

section8usmc
07-26-2011, 09:31 PM
Caleb and Tamara, you guys crack me up ! I was thinking too, the more you have of the same kind, the less practice rounds you end up putting through one singular gun. Seems to me, the reduced wear and tear on the gun might be worth the price of the extra one, especially in the long run, for the average CC, home defense, recreational target shooter. If you do competitions, you may need the 4 or 5. Lol.

Either way, a guy on the radio said once, that the best radio is the one you are most comfortable with, and the one you like to use most. I think that transfers over to just about anything, and I think they are great words of wisdom ! Especially when your life depends on it !

Tamara
07-26-2011, 09:59 PM
Caleb and Tamara, you guys crack me up !

I totally wasn't joking.

section8usmc
07-26-2011, 10:35 PM
I totally wasn't joking.

...and that's totally awesome.

Al T.
07-27-2011, 07:50 AM
I'm about there with my platform of choice and it is paying me dividends. The only fly in the ointment is one of my favorite carry guns is not compatible (S&W 3913 vrs. G17/19). Thinking seriously about sending the S&W back to get converted to DAO or sell it and get a G36 instead.

Knowing both Tamara and Shooting Buddy, I can confirm the accuracy of Tamara's post.

Adam
07-27-2011, 09:00 AM
Over the past few years I’ve become less diverse and in my mind “more practical” as far as handgun purchases go. I carry and shoot my Glock 19 20 rounds to 1 (probably more) against all my other firearms, so in my mind it made sense to buy another Glock 19 and essentially set it up exactly as my primary carry gun is. Whether it be a mechanical problem that puts the gun out of service, or God forbid it being held as evidence after a defensive shooting, etc., I have no learning curve in switching to a new gun.

Now, with that said I like all flavors of handguns and think in part it has to do with how much and how hard you are willing to train to master multiple guns. I prefer to stay with the Glock platform at this point for the consistency in manual of arms, but I’m not a “one and only one” guy.

jetfire
07-27-2011, 12:00 PM
I totally wasn't joking.

There's a reason I have suddenly acquired two identical Glocks as backups for my T-Wolf.

shep854
07-28-2011, 09:01 AM
I just ran a quick scan through the thread, so I may repeat some thoughts, but in my own words...
For carry, I stick with DAO, whether a revolver or auto, to minimize fumbling. I started out with a Combat Commander, but gradually moved to pocket carry. Also, for various reasons I can't practice as much as I feel necessary for a safety-equipped pistol, so the simple "draw-and-press" drill of a revolver or DAO pocket pistol makes sense for me. I do enjoy shooting other pistols with different manuals of arms, but every session will include my carry gun.
----
Regarding "muscle memory" and driving, there have been times when I drove an automatic transmission car that I found my right hand waving around for a gear shift and my left foot pushing a non-existent clutch; ingrained habit from driving a stick shift.

MDS
07-28-2011, 09:27 AM
Regarding "muscle memory" and driving, there have been times when I drove an automatic transmission car that I found my right hand waving around for a gear shift and my left foot pushing a non-existent clutch; ingrained habit from driving a stick shift.

Hah! You just reminded me of a time a few years after I started driving. It was my friend's mom's car, a big-ass Cadillac with a big-ass brake pedal. Having only ever driven stick shift, I thought driving an automatic would be trivial. It was, except for how I kept SLAMMING the extra-wide brake pedal with my left foot. Funny the first time it happened at 2mph while backing out of the driveway. Not so funny at 45mph while approaching a stop light... Even less funny, I can totally see this kind of phenomenon kicking in when you draw a gun.

Muscle memory (or whatever it should be called) is a very strange thing. I shot my USP45c a couple of months ago for the first time in ages, and it felt very foreign after 5-6K rounds through my G19. Still, I plan to shoot it once in a while, along with my revolvers, and I don't think my G19 "muscle memory" will suffer.

Odin Bravo One
07-28-2011, 11:35 AM
I have several of the same gun, nearly identical except some differences in finish, wear, and age. All are nearly identical to the gun I get to shoot for free. But I also have about 10 different makes, models, and calibers. Sure I absolutely shoot the primary pistol the best. But the difference between it and everything else during measured drills is minimal, as in a few hundredths of a second. I am consistently better with regular gun, so it is obvious there is an advantage, but I don't find the fundamentals changing from gun to gun. Most of the issues in switching from one to another are psychological. There may be physical differences, but it is more how those physical differences mess with your head than the actual differences themselves.

JonInWA
08-08-2011, 01:20 PM
Over the years, I've gradually thinnned down my collection, realizing that I'll achieve better results if I concentrate at one platform at a time. While I seem to do my best with Glocks, and spend the majority of my practice/carry/competition with them, I also enjoy, for example my Ruger revolvers and several 1911s.

My solution has been to dedicate myself to one platform at a time. For example, I usually spend 2 months on revolvers-either a GP100 or Security Six. During that time, the specific revolver becomes my primary, if not exclusive gun for practice/carry competition during those 2 months. That forces my intimate familiarity with that gun and its characteristics. At the end of its period, I switch to another gun/platform, to near exclusivity.

It may not be a perfect system, but it lets me enjoy different guns/platforms, and reap the benefits of concentration during a given period.

Best, Jon

JAD
08-08-2011, 02:22 PM
It's more that for what three USP45s cost you could have bought a personal security guard instead. ;-)
-- Sure, but quies custodiat ipsos custodes? http://www.frfrogspad.com/crisis.htm, still a favorite on the topic.

For the record, I think having a dedication to one platform is admirable, and I do myself own four variations on one platform, three of which I carry often enough to be comfortable. I however happen to have a BUG / HSDC* pistol (I call it Ta'akewada, which in Cherokee means 'better than a harsh look'**) which has a COMPLETELY different ignition mode and manual of arms. Bummer for the single platform concept. I could re-select my primary platform so that it would permit me a HSDC variant, but that seems dumb. So I practice with both, and try to stay honest to a 80%/20% ratio.

I have other handguns that I shoot once in a while, but I don't train with them; I haven't trained with anything but my chosen platform since 1997.

*Hot, Shitty Day Carry
**Not really.

FotoTomas
08-11-2011, 10:58 PM
A pair and a spare. My favorite is a Glock 26 and I have two that are set up alike. I even carry both on occasion. A Glock 19 is the spare. Very similar and comperable to the G26's.

Problem is this. The job issues me a Sig 229 DAK. I am limited to onduty training and carry only with the issue gun. I shoot it well but do not like it. I still have my personal copy of the Beretta 92D I used to be issued. As such it is a standin for some off duty matches and practice. Did I mention I also have a pair of S&W J frames for the pocket and a Model 19 Combat Magnum I love from my old revolver days. Then there is the Kahr PM9 that is my EDC in a pocket.

My one saving grace for shooting and carrying all of these platforms is DAO.

I understand the logic behind using one gun for all things. I instead use them all and feel comfortable because I shoot and train and compete more than 99% of my friends and coworkers. Most of them are happy with a 80% qualification score and no more. At some point I would like to have all the time I need to train and compete. Till that happens I will trudge along with my current stable and keep'em all warm. :)

Rex G
08-13-2011, 03:50 PM
A little late to the discussion, but I have been shooting long enough to see merit in the "one gun" concept. Indeed, my first non-PD mentor preached the wisdom of one gun, or several of the same (or very similar) gun, but it took me a while to
adopt that practice, myself. I later amended that to using one auto pistol model and certain revolvers.

My usual duty pistol is a P229R DAK. I have two more DAK P229 pistols without the accessory rail, which can sub in the
duty holster, but are intended for concealed carry. I also have a couple of DA/SA SIGs, but they are not carry guns. My low-cost training gun, however, is a revolver, an S&W Model 17, and I frequently carry medium-frame revolvers when off the clock. I think I have settled upon a good combination of autos and revolvers with such similar trigger strokes and pointing qualities.

From the early 1990s, to 2002, there were long periods when I used a SIG P220 to the exclusion of everything else, and
1911 pistols to the exclusion of almost everything else.

As for the OP's revolvers performing so differently, I noted the fundamental difference between them is balance. A 3"
K-frame has a very neutral balance, whereas the L-frame has a more forward balance point. All else being equal, I will
shoot a handgun better if it has a more forward balance point.

Rex G
08-13-2011, 03:52 PM
BTW, I did not purposely arrange the lines of my above post like that. This iPad does that, for reasons I do not understand.

Lon
08-14-2011, 09:55 PM
I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I went to the range to do some practice and took my M&P (house and off
duty gun), my Glock (competition gun) and my duty gun, a Sig 226. I wasnt happy with my performance on any of them, although I did manage to shoot a perfect score on the Dot drill and a sub 7 second FAST with my Sig. I've pretty much
decided to go with Sigs across the board, even though I don't like Sigs. I'm forced to carry a Sig at work, so I can't
change that, but I can change my other pistols. Not happy about it, but I want to be able to improve my performance and I'm not sure I can do that if I keep splitting my attention between the three. I think I'm gonna get a 228 for off duty carry and maybe get a spare 226 outta the armory for a practice gun.

Dang iPads. Not sure what's up with the paragraph.

NickA
10-27-2011, 10:50 AM
Sorry for the necropost but here's another (unlikely but certainly possible) reason to have a duplicate carry gun: a guy killed himself (suicide) at a local range a few days ago, and the police confiscated all guns on the line until they got it sorted out (wasn't immediately obvious what happened). I would think everyone will get their stuff back pretty quick but you never know.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

TCinVA
10-28-2011, 06:23 AM
Sorry for the necropost but here's another (unlikely but certainly possible) reason to have a duplicate carry gun: a guy killed himself (suicide) at a local range a few days ago, and the police confiscated all guns on the line until they got it sorted out (wasn't immediately obvious what happened).


That would suck.

JHC
10-28-2011, 07:47 AM
That would suck.

ROFL and don't take the spares all to the range.

ToddG
10-28-2011, 07:54 AM
... and the police confiscated all guns on the line until they got it sorted out (wasn't immediately obvious what happened). I would think everyone will get their stuff back pretty quick but you never know.

I'm trying to figure out how that wouldn't be a Fourth Amendment violation. Were warrants issued for the guns? What was the probable cause that any particular gun was used?

If someone was the victim of a hit and run in a mall parking lot, the police certainly couldn't impound every vehicle there until they "sorted it all out."

Having been through something somewhat similar once before (and having politely refused to turn over my firearm without a warrant), I'm genuinely interested in what some of our LEOs think about this.

Tamara
10-28-2011, 07:58 AM
I'm trying to figure out how that wouldn't be a Fourth Amendment violation. Were warrants issued for the guns? What was the probable cause that any particular gun was used?

I have to say that, given the circumstances, that's probably the kind of thing that would occur to me about five minutes after Johnny Law had departed with my heater. :o

NickA
10-28-2011, 08:51 AM
Todd- you certainly have a point, not being a lawyer I have no idea. The news story was not clear if guns were actually taken into custody or just checked at the scene, or what. Here's the link, though it isn't very informative :
http://www.kens5.com/news/BCSO-Person-shot-in-head-at-shooting-range-132552753.html
I get your point about a parking lot accident, but wouldn't an unexplained shooting in an area with a few people (all armed) be cause to check all weapons present?
(not being sarcastic at all, I'm genuinely curious now that it's been brought up)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Wheeler
10-28-2011, 09:11 AM
Todd- you certainly have a point, not being a lawyer I have no idea. The news story was not clear if guns were actually taken into custody or just checked at the scene, or what. Here's the link, though it isn't very informative :
http://www.kens5.com/news/BCSO-Person-shot-in-head-at-shooting-range-132552753.html
I get your point about a parking lot accident, but wouldn't an unexplained shooting in an area with a few people (all armed) be cause to check all weapons present?
(not being sarcastic at all, I'm genuinely curious now that it's been brought up)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Perception. Guns are inherently evil and dangerous and must be treated accordingly. Without taking potshots, (pun intended) most LEO's are nervous in a room full of armed individuals that are not LEO's themselves.

I'm sure there is actually an investigative purpose and procedure for this, but going back to what Todd said, how is that NOT a 4th Ammendment violation?

NickA
10-28-2011, 09:29 AM
Here's the follow up story:
http://www.kens5.com/home/Shooting-ruled-suicide-at-San-Antonio-rifle-range-132632323.html
Makes it sound a little different but still not clear exactly what happened regarding the guns on the firing line.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Chuck Haggard
10-29-2011, 01:21 PM
I'm trying to figure out how that wouldn't be a Fourth Amendment violation. Were warrants issued for the guns? What was the probable cause that any particular gun was used?

If someone was the victim of a hit and run in a mall parking lot, the police certainly couldn't impound every vehicle there until they "sorted it all out."

Having been through something somewhat similar once before (and having politely refused to turn over my firearm without a warrant), I'm genuinely interested in what some of our LEOs think about this.


Not exactly how I would have handled it, the crime scene that is.