Starbucks recinds its comfort level with OC...

[BaiHu]

http://feedly.com/k/1gxvGlK

It's not a ban, but a request for the antis and the OCs to take the argument elsewhere. At least that's his excuse right after the naval shooting.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[JAD]

I don't blame him at all, and recognize his respectful approach. I just bought some of his stuff.

[texasaggie2005]

Yeah, part of wants to scream "2A rights are non-negotiable!" and rage quit their coffee.

But then on the other hand, they were put in the middle of a political squabble by a bunch of high profile, open carry demonstrators being jerks.

Eventually they were going to crumble, and I knew it wasn't going to be in support of the side with the publicly armed jerks.

[RoyGBiv]

I don't blame him at all, and recognize his respectful approach.
Agreed. Starbucks is doing the right thing by its customers and its shareholders by following local law. Seems pretty clear that the anti's are not going to sink Starbucks for their position on this. That's a big win for the OC crowd and a great message to any other business that might feel threatened by the anti's. It's time for the OC crowd to stop using Starbucks as their rallying point. No need to alienate a global brand that's taken some risk for them and stood firm.

I didn't have any problem with Shultz' request to (paraphrasing) "Please stop using Starbucks to make a point, we just want to serve our products to you, I think our policy of following local law is pretty clear and respectful of both sides of this issue."

[BaiHu]

I agree with his sentiment, no one wants their business to be inundated with the 'angry mob' mentality for their customer base. Living in NJ, where we don't have any kind of carry, I don't know when these OC days are. Was there a recent OC vs Anti event lately at Starbucks??

[TR675]

I thought it was a great letter and was completely justified. It is what I would have done were I in his position.

[ToddG]

The idiot open carry guys who do these events at Starbucks remind me of neanderthals who clubbed a mate, dragged her into the village center, and sat on top of her to show off to their rivals. "Look at what Og do!"

Because yeah, intimidating a company's customers is always a brilliant way to keep that company in your corner. I'm simply surprised it took Starbucks this long to respond. I can easily imagine some pro-open carry group deciding to have a pro-gun "in your face" event at Starbucks in the wake of the Navy Yard shooting, and I can very easily imagine Starbucks changing their policy if that's what was necessary to get it out of the limelight of a 2A fight it doesn't want to be part of.

[NickA]

I agree with his sentiment, no one wants their business to be inundated with the 'angry mob' mentality for their customer base. Living in NJ, where we don't have any kind of carry, I don't know when these OC days are. Was there a recent OC vs Anti event lately at Starbucks??

IIRC there's been a few national boycott days by the antis, where the OC crowd countered and caused sales spikes instead of drops. I'm sure there's been others on a local level.

And yeah, this is a classic case of wearing out your welcome. Allies are hard enough to find, alienating a company that's perfectly willing to stay neutral is just dumb. I hope the OC crowd will act accordingly.

[PPGMD]

What are the odds that the OC crowds are going to continue to use Starbucks as their rallying points until Starbucks finally bans guns?

You know like they did in the state of California, they did OC demonstrations until the state finally banned open carry.

Now that I think of it, I think the OC demonstrators are might be anti-gunners in disguise. They certainly act like it.

[ToddG]

I hope the OC crowd will act accordingly.

If the OC crowd was going to "act accordingly" this crap never would have become an issue in the first place. I'm with PPGMD, it's almost enough to make you think it was the Brady Bunch orchestrating the whole thing.

If the US Harley Rider's Association (or whatever you crazy guys call yourself) decided to hold "Appreciation Days" at Starbucks all over the country, with dozens of loud motorcycles and leather chaps-wearing guys doing an Occupy Starbucks routine like the OC'ers did, I wouldn't be surprised if Starbucks came out and asked them to stop disrupting business, too.

[TCinVA]

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't believe the "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!" model of activism is going to actually achieve positive results for gun rights.

[VolGrad]

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't believe the "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!" model of activism is going to actually achieve positive results for gun rights.

I had a response in my mind but you pretty much stated it right here.

Pro guns
Pro coffee
Anti "in your face" activism no matter what flavor

[Chuck Haggard]

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't believe the "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!" model of activism is going to actually achieve positive results for gun rights.

I've made that same point to many of our local OCers, and they still don't get it, because "MY RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!", even thought these same guys hate the example set by the Westboro/anti-Westboro "We're queer and we're here!!!!!!!!!!!!!" folks, both of whom are very in your face groups.

[LHS]

I think this might not have happened if it was limited to people OCing pistols in a calm manner. But when you have morons OCing ARs and AKs and SKSs into the local coffee shop, then posing for pictures with them at the counter, what else did anyone expect?

[Chuck Haggard]

I have lost track of the number of attention whores carrying long guns to the Bucks and waiting with the video camera for the local coppers to get called just so they can post something on the Tardtube about how their rights are being violated by jack booted thugs.

[MDS]

If the OC crowd was going to "act accordingly" this crap never would have become an issue in the first place. I'm with PPGMD, it's almost enough to make you think it was the Brady Bunch orchestrating the whole thing.

I wish - that would be infinitely preferable to having these people become the poster child for NRA membership.


US Harley Rider's Association

Troll. ;)

[Savage Hands]

The idiot open carry guys who do these events at Starbucks remind me of neanderthals who clubbed a mate, dragged her into the village center, and sat on top of her to show off to their rivals. "Look at what Og do!"

Because yeah, intimidating a company's customers is always a brilliant way to keep that company in your corner. I'm simply surprised it took Starbucks this long to respond. I can easily imagine some pro-open carry group deciding to have a pro-gun "in your face" event at Starbucks in the wake of the Navy Yard shooting, and I can very easily imagine Starbucks changing their policy if that's what was necessary to get it out of the limelight of a 2A fight it doesn't want to be part of.



Agreed, here's a good article covering this mess: http://www.thebangswitch.com/our-own-worst-enemy/

[jlw]

There was a recent video making the rounds from out in Texas where a group of guys went to a Starbucks with slung rifles and a commotion ensued.

Don't read something that I am not writing. The cops responding to the call were, in my opinion, in the wrong for citing people who were carrying out a lawful activity.

Here's a couple of points from the video that were completely glossed over by the OC crowd. The guys claimed to have called Starbucks to see if the particular store had a problem with it, and they claimed to have called the local police ahead of time. It turns out that they called the wrong Starbucks, and they called the police in a different city. Repeat, they called the police in a completely different city. Such incompetence is not who I want out "educating the public" about my rights.

I can't blame any business for not wanting to get put in the spotlight like has happened to Starbucks.

[Tamara]

http://feedly.com/k/1gxvGlK

It's not a ban...

No, it's not a "ban", just a "respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas. (http://www.starbucks.com/blog/an-open-letter-from-howard-schultz/1268)"

I will respect that request and not bring a firearm into their store. Unfortunately, the firearm in question is strapped to me, and the wallet is in my pocket, so I'm afraid we won't be able to go in, either.

Sorry, Starbucks, but when somebody politely asks me to not give them money, I think it would be rude to not comply with their expressly-stated wishes.



(I have a question: Assuming you weren't Irish, would you patronize an establishment that asked Irishmen to not enter? How about if you were Irish, but didn't look it?)

[Tamara]

I think this might not have happened if it was limited to people OCing pistols in a calm manner. But when you have morons OCing ARs and AKs and SKSs into the local coffee shop, then posing for pictures with them at the counter, what else did anyone expect?

Absolutely. The in-your-face douchebags forced Starbucks to pick a side.

Unfortunately, the side they picked wasn't mine.

(...and the OC rally guys who didn't see this coming are a pack of 'tards. "Starbucks Appreciation Day! WOO! Starbucks is Pro-Gun!" Yeah, pal. The board of a Seattle-based coffee chain are secretly a bunch of buckskin-wearing Ted Nugent fans. Way to force the issue, numbnuts.)

[LHS]

Absolutely. The in-your-face douchebags forced Starbucks to pick a side.

Unfortunately, the side they picked wasn't mine.

Yup. And Ray Charles could have seen it coming.

[LHS]

http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/starbucks/

[NEPAKevin]

I don't really follow the OC stuff. Is there a reason why the people who post pics and videos of themselves OCing, seem to have the kitteniest holsters and belts?

[BobLoblaw]

I don't really follow the OC stuff. Is there a reason why the people who post pics and videos of themselves OCing, seem to have the kitteniest holsters and belts?

Because actions speak louder than words. They bought that $10 Serpa off eBay, dagummit and they're gonna wear it to go get their $8 iced mocha-caramel-choca-espresso-latté with sprinkles.

[MDS]

(I have a question: Assuming you weren't Irish, would you patronize an establishment that asked Irishmen to not enter? How about if you were Irish, but didn't look it?)

If there had been a media frenzy - no matter how insidiously wrong-headed - for the last few decades about the role of the Irish in mass murders; if this establishment had a long-standing policy of adherence to local laws around serving the Irish; if a bunch of burly, noisome Irish camped outside the establishment specifically to draw attention, in ways that caused disruption and questionable publicity; and if, in light of the context, it seems the establishment is acting in good faith to end the disruption. I probably would.

I can appreciate your point, and respect your stance. For myself: I am drafting a respectful email to sbux hq, fwiw. I won't be reducing my sbux habit. And I'll continue to carry discretely everywhere that I'm legally able.

[LittleLebowski]

I don't really follow the OC stuff. Is there a reason why the people who post pics and videos of themselves OCing, seem to have the kitteniest holsters and belts?

Attention whoring and OC people generally aren't too switching on as to "proficiency" or quality gear.

[ToddG]

I will respect that request and not bring a firearm into their store. Unfortunately, the firearm in question is strapped to me, and the wallet is in my pocket, so I'm afraid we won't be able to go in, either.

Reading the actual statement from the CEO, two things stand out to me: (1) he specifically said they're not banning guns, and (2) he doesn't really seem to grasp the existence of concealed carry. Everything was about OC and the effect it's had on their customers, employees, and business.

I think it's a dangerous mistake to go from having the OC crowd turn Starbucks into a pro-2A company (when it clearly isn't) to having the CCW crowd turn Starbucks into an anti-2A company (when it clearly isn't).

Then again, I'm the first to admit I go into places with "NO GUNS" signs all the time. I appreciate the mentality of folks who don't want to give money to businesses like that, but since the vast, vast majority of them put up those signs for non-political reasons I don't really see them as an active enemy. If I need something from Costco, I go to Costco, I carry, I carry concealed, no one knows but me, and no one suffers.

[VolGrad]

...and the OC rally guys who didn't see this coming are a pack of 'tards.Oh, they saw it coming. That whole crowd feeds off the drama.

In my experience most of the guys that OC, "educate the public" like it's their job, and get so deeply involved in the political "drama" (not to be mistaken for getting involved in legitimate politics) .... they aren't shooters anyway. "Guns" are just a hobby for them. They like to collect them, take pics of them, post about them, etc. but rarely shoot them and NEVER train with them. These guys DON'T represent me.

[BaiHu]

Reading the actual statement from the CEO, two things stand out to me: (1) he specifically said they're not banning guns, and (2) he doesn't really seem to grasp the existence of concealed carry. Everything was about OC and the effect it's had on their customers, employees, and business.

I think it's a dangerous mistake to go from having the OC crowd turn Starbucks into a pro-2A company (when it clearly isn't) to having the CCW crowd turn Starbucks into an anti-2A company (when it clearly isn't).....If I need something from Costco, I go to Costco, I carry, I carry concealed, no one knows but me, and no one suffers.

Bingo! Front row. I also sneak snacks into the movie theater, b/c I don't eat their crap. Yup, I'm a granola, libertarian/conservative, gun guy that 90% of the time grinds and drips his own coffee from a German coffee maker...no, it's not HK, but it's close...it's a Technivorm (you have to say that like Jeremy Clarkson to really appreciate it ;) ) Kinda like this: TEK!niVOUR!um!

[TCinVA]

Because actions speak louder than words. They bought that $10 Serpa off eBay, dagummit and they're gonna wear it to go get their $8 iced mocha-caramel-choca-espresso-latté with sprinkles.

LOL'd. Nicely done.

[TR675]

Reading the actual statement from the CEO, two things stand out to me: (1) he specifically said they're not banning guns, and (2) he doesn't really seem to grasp the existence of concealed carry. Everything was about OC and the effect it's had on their customers, employees, and business.

I think it's a dangerous mistake to go from having the OC crowd turn Starbucks into a pro-2A company (when it clearly isn't) to having the CCW crowd turn Starbucks into an anti-2A company (when it clearly isn't).

This. He wasn't picking sides. He was saying, "you're using my business locations to make a scene to make a political point, please knock it off."

[Tamara]

I will reiterate my prior statement that "respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas" is not exactly ambiguous or hard to interpret. It is a request that customers not bring firearms into their stores or outdoor seating areas.

He asked me nicely, and I am going to comply. If other people want to read it as there being an invisible "openly-carried" between "bring" and "firearms" then that's up to them.

Me? I've got proper indie coffee houses here in Broad Ripple I could be patronizing; I was only giving Starbucks the business out of gratitude for their neutrality. I'm sure they won't miss me.

[ToddG]

Tam, I absolutely get what you're saying. But the thing you posted on your blog (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/09/this-one-wins-all-internets.html) (Tom Reynolds: Looks to me like @starbucksnews has adopted "Don't ask - Don't tell" about carrying in their stores.) sums up my feeling about it.

I don't drink coffee so this is all fairly moot for me, but I wouldn't hesitate to go into a Starbucks or spend money at a Starbucks over this. I still believe -- and maybe it's just my cognitive dissonance on overdrive -- that he's specifically meaning to address open carry folks and not concealed carry folks; he simply doesn't have enough understanding of the issue to see the distinction.

[jlw]

Oh, they saw it coming. That whole crowd feeds off the drama.

In my experience most of the guys that OC, "educate the public" like it's their job, and get so deeply involved in the political "drama" (not to be mistaken for getting involved in legitimate politics) .... they aren't shooters anyway. "Guns" are just a hobby for them. They like to collect them, take pics of them, post about them, etc. but rarely shoot them and NEVER train with them. These guys DON'T represent me.

They go somewhere and do mag dumps and call it shooting...

[TCinVA]

My 2 cents:

If Starbucks wanted to be snippy about all this, they could have done so. When I read the statement and saw the policy page that got posted everywhere it looked to me like they were trying to be as non-offensive as possible while getting people to maybe not walk around holding AK's in their stores.

I can't really fault them on that front.

They do seem to be going the don't ask, don't tell route...which isn't the best outcome, but is far from the worst.

[VolGrad]

I still believe -- and maybe it's just my cognitive dissonance on overdrive -- that he's specifically meaning to address open carry folks and not concealed carry folks; ....


My 2 cents:

If Starbucks wanted to be snippy about all this, they could have done so. When I read the statement and saw the policy page that got posted everywhere it looked to me like they were trying to be as non-offensive as possible while getting people to maybe not walk around holding AK's in their stores.

I can't really fault them on that front.

They do seem to be going the don't ask, don't tell route...which isn't the best outcome, but is far from the worst.

I agree with the two above statements wholeheartedly. Frankly, when I saw some pics attached to some of the articles/blogs around the Internet on this topic I too was appalled and wanted to write a letter asking the OC idiots to knock it off. I am all about guns and am in no way afraid of them. I am afraid of idiots with guns. The kind of person that thinks it's a good idea to pose with their long guns inside a Starbucks "for effect" are not folks I want to be around. Quite honestly, I agree with the CEO guy that these kind of idiots make me feel uncomfortable. He's right ... and I am all about folks being able to carry guns legally.

[ToddG]

SCOTUS pretty clearly said RKBA is about self-defense, not self-image. I wish the OC crowd understood that. Instead they've turned one of the biggest mainstream media "guns are ok" stories into a "please keep your scary guns away" story. Bravo, kittens.

[Dropkick]

The next thing you know, Chipotle will be asking it's customers not to breast feed babies there.

[ToddG]

The next thing you know, Chipotle will be asking it's customers not to breast feed babies there.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sZdNFFfS99I/UBH3MPlckpI/AAAAAAAAV8s/oEW6tFPwUFE/s640/blogger-image--490245445.jpg

[PPGMD]

SCOTUS pretty clearly said RKBA is about self-defense, not self-image. I wish the OC crowd understood that. Instead they've turned one of the biggest mainstream media "guns are ok" stories into a "please keep your scary guns away" story. Bravo, kittens.

So no BBQ guns?

[Palmguy]

What are the odds that the OC crowds are going to continue to use Starbucks as their rallying points until Starbucks finally bans guns?

Near certain.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/09/starbucks-gun-ban-schultz-open-carry-letter.html

[will_1400]

I don't drink coffee

Now we know the reason why you blew that 3-round-per-target version of Triple Nickle in that infamous vid of yours: having a bit of caffeine in your system might have given you that split second edge in speed to clear it. :p:cool:

[Tamara]

So no BBQ guns?

It's okay, Starbucks likes your guns. They just don't like those tacky people's guns. ;)

Seriously, though, some of the above posts make me a little uncomfortable.

I mean, my disdain for the Cletii of the gun world and their execrable taste in open-carry accoutrement is on the record (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2008/10/lifes-great-mysteries-437196.html) for all to see, but there's a certain amount of "Well, you know, they only meant those bad ones. The ones that wear the hip-hop clothes and listen to the loud music" going on here.

No, they don't like you either, mah gunna, even though you cover up your hundred dollar holster and listened to NPR (http://bacontoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/img_3766.jpg)* on the way to get your frappucino.


(For those that didn't get the pic: "You ain't down wit' us! You ain't street! You bacon on the outside and tofu on the inside!")

[UNK]

Its not just open carry of pistols. This weekend I was behind a guy in line for admittance to a movie at the local 8 plex. He had what looked to be a dagger in a kydex sheath horizontally carried.....in the small of his back....I looked closely there was no serpa type lock on the knife. I almost dared my 13 year old 5' 110 pound kid to take it then thought better of it..
I didn't want him to embarrass the guy...like he did a twenty two year old 6'4"guy in a practice match last month :cool:

[Gadfly]

http://mom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/coffeewithgunsense.jpg

"Moms Demand Action" has this floating around....

[GardoneVT]

The CEOs statement had one goal -to get the Moms Against Guns group off their backsides.

Based on current results it's a resounding success.Meanwhile life goes on as usual.A fact lost amidst the media's indulgent gloating is that each store operates by the rules and regulations of it's environment.I doubt the Starbucks in Sioux Falls SD is going to start wanding their customers,and the New York City locations hardly need to call HQ for clarification.

[ToddG]

Now we know the reason why you blew that 3-round-per-target version of Triple Nickle in that infamous vid of yours: having a bit of caffeine in your system might have given you that split second edge in speed to clear it. :p:cool:

Goes without saying. It wasn't lack of skill, merely lack of caffeine. I think they should start doing caffeine checks at major IDPA and USPSA matches. Anyone with any trace of caffeine in their system is DQd.


No, they don't like you either, mah gunna, even though you cover up your hundred dollar holster and listened to NPR (http://bacontoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/img_3766.jpg)* on the way to get your frappucino.

If they wanted to say "anyone carrying a firearm onto the premises will be considered trespassing" they could have. They didn't. They made a statement that was intended to tell the AR-carrying idiots to stop. Of course, that has simply incited many of the AR-carrying idiots to shout "oh yeah? make me!" which will no doubt eventually lead either to an unpleasant and nationally televised confrontation or Starbucks being forced to institute a more concrete, less permissive policy.

I'm just repeating myself but I do get where you're coming from. I just think it's unfair to call Starbucks on this when they were figuratively put up against the wall by literal rifle-bearing extremists. Hell, you're not allowed to walk into the NRA Range with an uncased rifle over your shoulder.

[ToddG]

Based on current results it's a resounding success.Meanwhile life goes on as usual.A fact lost amidst the media's indulgent gloating...

I don't think that's correct, though. The greater impact of all this is, through the "media's indulgent gloating," Average America just got one more loud message that guns are bad and gun owners are bad. I've said it before, the Left's angle of attack isn't changing law, it's changing perception. They want you and me to be the new "dirty old man." They want non-gun owners to look at gun owners the way non-drug addicts tend to look at drug addicts: dangerous, untrustworthy, unstable, unintelligent, etc.

So what those "I can carry my AR into Starbucks!" nimrods have done is given the Brady folks a giant win in the public perception war.

Thanks, AR-carrying nimrods!

[Casual Friday]

Its not just open carry of pistols. This weekend I was behind a guy in line for admittance to a movie at the local 8 plex. He had what looked to be a dagger in a kydex sheath horizontally carried.....in the small of his back....I looked closely there was no serpa type lock on the knife. I almost dared my 13 year old 5' 110 pound kid to take it then thought better of it..
I didn't want him to embarrass the guy...like he did a twenty two year old 6'4"guy in a practice match last month :cool:

For your son's sake and most likely yours, the "thought better of it" was the right move.

[JodyH]

Have you folks who are bashing Starbucks actually seen the photos of the douchenozzles that were rifle/shotgun toting in their coffee shops?
Seriously... I'd toss these guys out of any store I owned.

Exhibit A: I rest my case.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/b80efe52fa109485b39364eeb0c98043/tumblr_mr9rkkVL2T1qjo9duo1_500.png

[ToddG]

We need to have a PF contest: entry is a photo of you in a Starbucks, carrying a gun, but no one can tell from the photo that you're armed...

[tremiles]

We need to have a PF contest: entry is a photo of you in a Starbucks, carrying a gun, but no one can tell from the photo that you're armed...

Well played.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[justintime]

I did not even know this was a problem

[UNK]

For your son's sake and most likely yours, the "thought better of it" was the right move.

EXACTLY!!! After all the guy was with his girlfriend...that would have been doubly embarrassing :o :o

[Gadfly]

Can you imagine the fallout if one of the guys had an AD/ND while jacking with his rifle so he could strike the perfect pose for the photo... At least some folks kept them slung across their backs.

[RoyGBiv]

We need to have a PF contest: entry is a photo of you in a Starbucks, carrying a gun, but no one can tell from the photo that you're armed...

How many Gadgets prize for the most guns concealed in one photo?
(Twenty quatloos (http://birkenheaddrill.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/triskelion.jpg) for the newcomer)

[JV_]

"One injured in accidental shooting at Tyrone Mall Starbucks"
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2013/5/12/victim_recovering_af.html

"Woman drops purse in Starbucks, accidentally shoots friend with handgun "
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-drops-purse-starbucks-shoots-friend-article-1.1343236

[Chuck Haggard]

Due to how the law is written in my state I could legally walk into the local Bucks wearing only the obligitory shirt and shoes to get by the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" signs and not be wearing pants. Completely legal.

The problem is, as Claude has stated so well, that no one wants to see my junk, nor do they want to see my pistol. Certainly not my AR when I am getting some coffee.

The OC folks locally think nothing of bashing the Westboro folks, yet use the same in your face "it's my right!" tactics.

[Tamara]

Have you folks who are bashing Starbucks

1) I'm not bashing Starbucks, merely quoting their CEO.

2) My contempt for kittenheads like the one in your picture is such that you would probably need a dictionary to get a loose grasp of its edges.

3) Watching gun owners try to convince themselves that when Mr. Schultz wrote "That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas," he really meant "That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas. Except for you Jody. Your guns are totally cool," has been the most interesting part of my day. If you really want to give money to somebody who thinks you're a drooling moron no different from the shotgun-toting cretin in the picture above, knock yourselves out. If you believe that he thinks there is some difference between you and the guy in the picture, well, send him a photocopy of your NRA membership card and ask him.

[GardoneVT]

We need to have a PF contest: entry is a photo of you in a Starbucks, carrying a gun, but no one can tell from the photo that you're armed...

This points to a concept unpopular among gun owners.

I have a constitutional right to free speech.That fact does not at face value make it proper for me to hurl insults at strangers.
The 2nd Amendment protects our right to keep and bear arms.It does not enumerate a right for to irresponsibly carry weapons in a similarly offensive manner.

If one must open carry due to legality or a concrete logical reason,that's one thing.The act of open carry for the sake thereof is akin to morons who blast subwoofers at 3AM,and is received correctly in the same way by bystanders-as behavior of individuals devoid of good sense.

Hopefully no one here thinks I'm an anti gun troll for saying that.

As to Starbucks' CEO, he could quite easily have made it corporate policy to prohibit armed customers in every respect.That naturally would hurt sales in pro gun states.
Or he could have done nothing.......and watched the antis in New Jersey,Chicago,and other similar places jack up the pressure,causing sales losses in the biggest cities w/the most gun control supporters.

So,he played the Solomon gambit.That's the way I see it from this vantage point.

[Tamara]

Do they speak English in What?


As to Starbucks' CEO, he could quite easily have made it corporate policy to prohibit armed customers in every respect.

Which part of "customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas" is so kittening hard for you to kittening understand? For kitten's sake, it's not written in kittening Swahili! The man politely asked you to not bring kittening guns into his kittening stores!

RUDE GUN OWNERS IGNORING THE WISHES OF STARBUCKS IS WHAT GOT US HERE!

[RoyGBiv]

Actions trump words.
Ban? No.

It would have been easy to do.

Im not ready to lynch Starbucks.

[Dagga Boy]

Do they speak English in What?



Which part of "customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas" is so kittening hard for you to kittening understand? For kitten's sake, it's not written in kittening Swahili! The man politely asked you to not bring kittening guns into his kittening stores!

RUDE GUN OWNERS IGNORING THE WISHES OF STARBUCKS IS WHAT GOT US HERE!

I think his next sentence and the entire text of the statement is in regards to openly carried guns. Every mention in the statement is in regards to open carry.

"even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel"

So the read I get is this is not directed at those with concealed weapons permits who actually keep them concealed.

This is called back blast for stupid people. Just like I told these idiots in California....you are going to "educate" the legislature right into making open carry illegal.......and guess what happened. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. A much better statement would have been made with concealed permit holders and pro second amendment rights folks paying in two dollar bills or using some type of special "gift card" that the stores would understand that gun owners are nice decent people and let the anti's act like idiots. On this one, Joe Stupid bringing his 870 or AR into a Starbucks just fulfills the mouth breathing idiot stereotype a reality.

[GardoneVT]

Do they speak English in What?



Which part of "customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas" is so kittening hard for you to kittening understand? For kitten's sake, it's not written in kittening Swahili! The man politely asked you to not bring kittening guns into his kittening stores!

RUDE GUN OWNERS IGNORING THE WISHES OF STARBUCKS IS WHAT GOT US HERE!

Exactly.

Why the pretense for politeness?

Why not just tell the PR flunkie or Facilities exec to send out a press release stating no one can carry in their stores period,and have done with it.A Dennys manager in downstate Illinois took his corporate ban on armed customers so far he personally confronted LEO customers to disarm before eating.Starbucks would hardly be alone if they flatly banned carry.

So why the white glove approach,unless it served Starbucks' business purposes?

[ToddG]

So the read I get is this is not directed at those with concealed weapons permits who actually keep them concealed.

That continues to be my read, as well, as mentioned earlier. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to learn the CEO doesn't even know CCW exists.

[Dagga Boy]

That continues to be my read, as well, as mentioned earlier. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to learn the CEO doesn't even know CCW exists.

Agreed. He has been "educated" that this is how "gun owners" carry guns...exactly like many progressives like to portray it.

[ToddG]

Agreed. He has been "educated" that this is how "gun owners" carry guns...exactly like many progressives like to portray it.

Agreed... and that education has extended to how many other young Starbucks coffee-pourers and spill-moppers over the past many months? When a significant portion of this forum's own members are disturbed by the behavior, what effect can we expect it to have on those kids (and their votes the next time gun control is an issue)?

Seriously, every time I see one of those AR-carrying coffee-swilling morons in a photo from Starbucks, and every time I read one of them online crowing about his "Second Amendment RIGHT!" to be on private property with a carbine... argh, it makes me so mad I can't even finish the sentence.

[GardoneVT]

Agreed. He has been "educated" that this is how "gun owners" carry guns...exactly like many progressives like to portray it.

I can't speak to the CEOs political leanings.Perhaps he's a hardcore anti ,who knows.But in business ,you do what you must to maintain profits.

Having liberal moms campaigning against your company when said firm generates profit in anti-gun markets is bad business.Likewise you don't want the NRA doing the same thing in rural sales areas either. An easy way out is to play politico-say a statement which sounds good but in practice means nothing.A request by an executive on TV isn't the same thing as a sign saying "We Do Not Permit Firearms" on every locations doorstep.

[tremiles]

That continues to be my read, as well, as mentioned earlier. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to learn the CEO doesn't even know CCW exists.

For a company with 58b market cap, between the market research and business forecast folks, I'd be surprised if their wasn't a bible sized risk analysis report on pro vs. anti-gun customers on the PR director's desk when he/she wrote the statement for the CEO.

The statement coupled with the no-ban was calculated to alienate the fewest amount of people.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[JAD]

using some type of special "gift card" .
That would have worked really well. Back when we had a little bit of positive momentum with Starbucks -- before the opentoters showed up in force, I recall a brief period of sanity when we were showing support with open wallets -- I bet we could have talked some marketing dweeb at the head office into getting a run of cards done with a subtle message, and they would have sold like hoecakes.

[BLR]

I'm going to wait and see if (in OH anyway), little pictures of 92FSs show up with a red line through them.

[Tamara]

This is called back blast for stupid people. Just like I told these idiots in California...
This is actually directly traceable to those idiots in California. Remember where they were holding their "unloaded open carry" gatherings/protests? Yeah.


A much better statement would have been made with concealed permit holders and pro second amendment rights folks paying in two dollar bills or using some type of special "gift card" that the stores would understand that gun owners are nice decent people and let the anti's act like idiots.

Tangentially related (http://www.atomicnerds.com/?p=3259). (Link has cuss words.)

tl;dr version: Three years ago, when Starbucks declared neutrality on the whole guns issue, somebody on the internets floated the idea of patronizing the store and informing the barista that you were doing so because of their "support for the Second Amendment."

[fixer]

I'm with Todd and Nyeti on this one: more than likely this statement was targeted towards the demonstrators OC'ing.

[Tamara]

I'm with Todd and Nyeti on this one: more than likely this statement was targeted towards the demonstrators OC'ing.

No, it's cool. He likes your gun just fine. Heck, he wants to go shooting with you. Give him a call!

Keep it up and I'll write him and ask his position on CCW just out of spite, because you know what his answer will be. Matter of fact, I think that would make a GREAT interview for Concealed Carry Magazine...

[TCinVA]

Have you folks who are bashing Starbucks actually seen the photos of the douchenozzles that were rifle/shotgun toting in their coffee shops?
Seriously... I'd toss these guys out of any store I owned.

Exhibit A: I rest my case.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/b80efe52fa109485b39364eeb0c98043/tumblr_mr9rkkVL2T1qjo9duo1_500.png

That's ***CENSORED*** retarded. If I walked through the door and saw that I'd be doing a threat assessment. A coffee shop is not the place to be coonfingering your damn shotgun, for Christ's sake.

[BLR]

Now that I think a bit more on this, it's funny how 'bucks didn't tell the Moms Against Whatever to take a hike also.

I'd have respected a "This is a place of business, we aren't getting into politics - ON EITHER SIDE - so, please, take your demonstrations elsewhere. Will will continue to abide by the law, but ask anyone creating a scene to leave."

[Tamara]

That's ***CENSORED*** retarded.

That's tame compared to some of the militia cosplayers I've seen ordering a venti latte for their moment of Facebook glory. Do a Google image search on "rifle in Starbucks". Swallow any beverages first.

[Kyle Reese]

Now that I think a bit more on this, it's funny how 'bucks didn't tell the Moms Against Whatever to take a hike either.

I'd have respected a "This is a place of business, we aren't getting into politics - ON EITHER SIDE - so, please, take your demonstrations elsewhere. Will will continue to abide by the law, but ask anyone creating a scene to leave."

You noticed that too?

People are free to spend their money however they wish. I won't be spending mine at Starbucks anymore.

[BLR]

You noticed that too?

People are free to spend their money however they wish. I won't be spending mine at Starbucks anymore.

I hate it when I get quoted using incorrect grammar or spelling. :mad:

They picked a side by omission in issuing that statement as it is.

[BaiHu]

For the sake of fleshing this out a bit more, who showed up causing a disturbance first? OC guys or anti-mom's? One had to stimulate the other into action. Don't blame the firemen for the fire.

I don't agree with either party involved, but what's Starbucks to do? Host each party on opposite days?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[jlw]

The OC folks locally think nothing of bashing the Westboro folks, yet use the same in your face "it's my right!" tactics.

I have a radio interview this morning stemming from some of this. I may make the OC/Westboro connection if it fits in with how the discussion goes. Thanks for pointing that out.

[GardoneVT]

No, it's cool. He likes your gun just fine. Heck, he wants to go shooting with you. Give him a call!

Keep it up and I'll write him and ask his position on CCW just out of spite, because you know what his answer will be. Matter of fact, I think that would make a GREAT interview for Concealed Carry Magazine...

And?

Like it or not,anti gun people are a fact of American life.There will always be a subset of the population which despises guns and all who carry them.That was the case in 1776,and will likely remain so long after all of us are dead.Unfortunately,their votes have equal standing with ours-so,logically,we need to find a way to get along.That's best done by keeping the iron out of sight and making our presence known on the ballot.

The OC fans say that they're advertising for the RKBA.I'd argue they're damaging our rights by the second,because the sight of Cleetus walking in for a latte makes even gun owners think " you know what,maybe we DO need some more regulation,if only to prevent the idiocy I'm looking at right now."

[Tamara]

Like it or not,anti gun people are a fact of American life.

Really? Do tell!

:rolleyes:

Anyhow, I am addressing the other posters in this thread who think that the CEO is fine with Concealed Carry and just down on the OC nutbars: Would you like me to do an interview with Mr. Schultz to get his clarification on this? I've got enough time between now and my next submission deadline, and I'm sure that it would make a fascinating article topic.

[Byron]

From my point of view, here's the craziest part of all of this...

Starbucks never had a "pro-2A" stance, they simply had a "we follow the local laws" stance.

But since they were not explicitly anti-gun, some parts of the shooting community considered Starbucks' stance some sort of a "win" or point of bragging. This in itself concerns me (more on that in a second).

This "win" was celebrated by people behaving in ways that they would not behave in almost any other establishment or setting. (As noted by Todd, you can't even walk into most shooting facilities with a loaded long gun on your back.)

Once this was set in motion, I just don't see how these circumstances could have played out any other way, though I am all ears as to what Starbucks "should" have done. If I were in Howard Schultz's shoes, I honestly don't know how I would have handled it any better than he did: it's a really crappy position to be in.

If this was (almost) any other controversial social issue, I reckon it would have played out the same. Imagine:

"Hey Starbucks, do you guys ban Pitbulls from your outdoor seating areas?"
"We follow local law."
"HEY EVERYONE! DID YOU HEAR THAT!? STARBUCKS IS WITH US IN THE FIGHT AGAINST PITBULL PERSECUTION! EVERYONE BRING ALL YOUR PITBULLS TO STARBUCKS FOR STARBUCKS APPRECIATION DAY AND PITBULL RALLIES!"
We all know how that would end.

"There's no constitutional right to a Pitbull though, Byron."

*Sigh* - fine.


"Hey Starbucks, do you guys prevent people from talking in your establishments?"
"We follow local law."
"HEY EVERYONE! DID YOU HEAR THAT!? STARBUCKS IS WITH US IN OUR FIRST AMENDMENT FIGHT! MAKE SURE TO STAND IN LINE AND YELL WORDS THAT YOU KNOW WILL BE FOUND OFFENSIVE!"

I just can't reconcile the logic of the OC crowd. On the one hand, they want guns to be seen as normal parts of American life. On the other hand, when an establishment actually behaves that way (as Starbucks previously did), they turn it into a lightning rod. That's sure to encourage other establishments to treat firearms as normal parts of American life :rolleyes:

Companies that say "we respect the law" should not be lauded as pioneers of rights. At most, they should be given a pat on the back, a nod, a nice letter, etc.

If a restaurant chain's stance on almost any other issue was "we respect the law," everyone would say, "yea, so?"

The Black Panthers don't make McDonald's their official rally point simply because McDonald's doesn't actively ban Black people.
Radical feminists don't hold publicity events at Applebees just because Applebees doesn't actively ban women.
Bitter parents don't purposefully coordinate cacophonies of screaming toddlers in restaurants that don't ban children.
The list goes on and on...

I am not saying "gun owners are equivalent to group x." I am expressing my perplexity at what some members of our community previously considered a "win," and what sore winners they were.

[Dagga Boy]

Really? Do tell!

:rolleyes:

Anyhow, I am addressing the other posters in this thread who think that the CEO is fine with Concealed Carry and just down on the OC nutbars: Would you like me to do an interview with Mr. Schultz to get his clarification on this? I've got enough time between now and my next submission deadline, and I'm sure that it would make a fascinating article topic.

Do you really care? If it weren't for the in your face O.C. people, this wouldn't even be a conversation and we could worry about over priced coffee, that I happen to like. I doubt the CEO gave CCW holders a thought. I would like to keep it this way.....that is the whole idea. My choice to carry concealed and not bother anyone or have it be a concern should be a personal decision and not a corporate concern...so why make it a corporate concern? The solid CCW holders who act responsibly should be the quiet professionals of the gun carry world. Wouldn't trying to pin down the CEO of Starbucks on CCW for a magazine be pretty much the same in your face type stuff that the OC folks are doing. I am perfectly okay with people not liking guns, with placing their safety and the safety of their families in the hands of others....I am very Pro Choice on that. Equally, I don't want to shove my opinions on guns down their throats if it doesn't affect anyone. Right now people can carry concealed with no issues in many places, lets just keep doing that without anyone knowing. I don't want businesses worrying about concealed holders. Until the signs go up on the doors, can we just leave it alone. I like the signs in Texas where they inform people that "Illegal" carry is not permitted. Those are essentially welcome CCW signs, but keeps the anti's from saying anything...win/win. As a business owner I wouldn't care if I had customers wearing adult diapers in my business, but I wouldn't want you in my business if you are one of those people who likes to cover themselves in fecal matter and cruise around in public (yes, I used to have a "regular" customer as a cop who was quite fond of walking around covered in his own feces).

I am very pro gun in the Constitutional ideals (which have not a word about "hunting" or "sporting"), but I also have a deep appreciation for individual rights and property rights in particular. You are a "guest" in a private business. Act like it. I wouldn't let the jacka** with the shotgun in my home, and I don't blame people if they don't want him in theirs.

[JV_]

My choice to carry concealed and not bother anyone or have it be a concern should be a personal decision and not a corporate concern...so why make it a corporate concern? The solid CCW holders who act responsibly should be the quiet professionals of the gun carry world. Wouldn't trying to pin down the CEO of Starbucks on CCW for a magazine be pretty much the same in your face type stuff that the OC folks are doing. I am perfectly okay with people not liking guns, with placing their safety and the safety of their families in the hands of others....I am very Pro Choice on that. Equally, I don't want to shove my opinions on guns down their throats if it doesn't affect anyone. Right now people can carry concealed with no issues in many places, lets just keep doing that without anyone knowing. I don't want businesses worrying about concealed holders. Until the signs go up on the doors, can we just leave it alone. Well said, I agree.

[BaiHu]

Tam,
When you worked at a gun store, did you ever have a Cleetus muzzle you? I'm pretty sure you have IIRC. Did the owner ever 'control' the situation? Did the owner ever ask people to leave and/or not come back?
I just don't understand what you would expect from an owner of a 'neutral' establishment such as a coffee shop. If you wouldn't tolerate that behavior in a gun store or as Todd mentioned, a range, why would a neutral or anti be tolerant of the OC crowd behavior?
As for your interview with Schulz? I'll give you his answer. "I was clear in my statement and we are in the coffee business, not the political platform business."
How do I now? B/c he says it right here:


.... have been thrust unwillingly into the middle of this debate.

...highly sensitive balance of rights and responsibilities surrounding America’s gun laws, and we recognize the deep passion for and against the “open carry” laws adopted by many states.

...I] longstanding approach to “open carry” has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers to disarm or leave our stores. We believe that gun policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.[/I]

... we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

...today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

...this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose “open carry,” we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

Almost like the entire letter is about "TAKE YOUR EFFIN' FIGHT OUT OF MY STORE", not "Take your guns out of my store, but leave the anti malcontents."

[Tamara]

Do you really care? If it weren't for the in your face O.C. people, this wouldn't even be a conversation...

Have I implied otherwise?


Wouldn't trying to pin down the CEO of Starbucks on CCW for a magazine be pretty much the same in your face type stuff that the OC folks are doing.

I don't think so. I interpreted his request to not bring firearms into the store as a request to not bring firearms into the store. I intend to honor that request. But I am being told in this thread that he was really okay with it if the guns were concealed, and I don't see that in his statement. Don't you think a clarification would help?

No, you don't, because you and I both know what his answer would be.

Now, if people were going to be intellectually honest with me and say "Hippie didn't put a metal detector in his store, so I'll keep on buying his coffee if I want to," then I can appreciate that. I have no problem with my fellow CCW toters quietly not making a ruckus (wherever it's legal to do so, of course, Mr. NSA agent!) But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's a double half-caff latte. ;)


Almost like the entire letter is about "TAKE YOUR EFFIN' FIGHT OUT OF MY STORE", not "Take your guns out of my store, but leave the anti malcontents."

Except the part where he says, you know, "don't bring guns in the store." He is making a polite request of you. Why won't you respect his politely-expressed wishes?

[BaiHu]

Except the part where he says, you know, "don't bring guns in the store." He is making a polite request of you. Why won't you respect his politely-expressed wishes?

What I'm saying is he didn't exclude one for the other. He didn't choose sides as much as he said neither one of you are welcome to make my stores a rallying point for your political pontificating. You can't remove the mouth from and anti or pro RKBA, but you can ask (not ban) the obnoxious OC crowd, that created the situation, (see my earlier post about blaming the firemen over the fire) to not carry and thereby removing the anti crowd as well.

How can anyone tell what your political views are without asking you at a Starbucks??

How can anyone tell what your political views are if you're carrying a shotgun/AR slung over their back??

If someone comes in with a anti-gun sign, making everyone weirded out, when no one is there with a gun slung on their back or muzzling the folks, then I'd expect he'd say 'no signage can be brought into or around my stores.'

[ToddG]

Anyhow, I am addressing the other posters in this thread who think that the CEO is fine with Concealed Carry and just down on the OC nutbars: Would you like me to do an interview with Mr. Schultz to get his clarification on this? I've got enough time between now and my next submission deadline, and I'm sure that it would make a fascinating article topic.

YES YES YES YES YES

I think it would be great to get clarification and if what he really does say is, "If you have a lawfully concealed handgun we'd rather not have your business," then I'm with you and will comply with that wish. But I'd like an answer to that very pointed, specific question: if a lawful, licensed CCW holder is choosing between Startbucks and Donuts for a hot cup of black tar, would Starbucks like his business even if he's discreetly carrying a firearm?

[ToddG]

Bitter parents don't purposefully coordinate cacophonies of screaming toddlers in restaurants that don't ban children.

Wait, are there restaurants that do ban children? Do you have a list? Is there a newsletter to which I can subscribe?

[Palmguy]

Now, if people were going to be intellectually honest with me and say "Hippie didn't put a metal detector in his store, so I'll keep on buying his coffee if I want to," then I can appreciate that. I have no problem with my fellow CCW toters quietly not making a ruckus (wherever it's legal to do so, of course, Mr. NSA agent!) But don't piss on my leg and tell me it's a double half-caff latte. ;)


I really don't think there is as much intellectual dishonesty going on as you imply. You are correct that sentence in his letter doesn't specify concealed guns are ok. The rest of the contents of the letter and the real purpose of the letter completely revolve around the OC AR-15/870/whatever other long gun kittenhats dragging them into something they want no part of....which is completely irrelevant to people with concealed pistols minding their own business.

Personally, I don't give a crap; I'm not convincing myself of some hidden meaning so I can feel ok with myself about packing in Starbucks. As I don't drink coffee, I don't go to Starbucks.

[Erik]

I think it would be great to get clarification...

Agreed.

[JV_]

Wait, are there restaurants that do ban children?
http://money.msn.com/now/blog--business-is-booming-at-no-kids-restaurant

[Savage Hands]

I'm here at Starbucks and nobody is freaking out, hmm...

[Tamara]

Wait, are there restaurants that do ban children?

Yeah, but they're booked from now 'til Octember 40th by parents who've managed to find babysitters.

[Chuck Haggard]

As I don't drink coffee,

Wait, what?


That's the craziest thing I have read on the internets today.

[JV_]

That's the craziest thing I have read on the internets today.Add me to the list of folks won't don't drink coffee. And I have a sizable bet with my dad that I won't start by the time I hit 40.

[JRB]

I really don't think there is as much intellectual dishonesty going on as you imply. You are correct that sentence in his letter doesn't specify concealed guns are ok. The rest of the contents of the letter and the real purpose of the letter completely revolve around the OC AR-15/870/whatever other long gun kittenhats dragging them into something they want no part of....which is completely irrelevant to people with concealed pistols minding their own business.

Personally, I don't give a crap; I'm not convincing myself of some hidden meaning so I can feel ok with myself about packing in Starbucks. As I don't drink coffee, I don't go to Starbucks.

While we all know that it was the derpitrons OC'ing AR's that brought us to this precipice and eventually forced this response from Starbucks - I see absolutely no language in his statement that excludes any category of firearms based on size, appearance, or how they're carried. He said 'Please do not bring firearms into Starbucks'
Not 'Please don't OC in Starbucks'
Not 'Please don't carry long guns in Starbucks'

The clarification of his intent via interview would be nice, but the language used in this statement leaves absolutely nothing open to interpretation.

While I do not post here very often - I do read a LOT of this forum. Considering the intellect and reason so commonly demonstrated by virtually everyone that's posted in this thread already, I am genuinely baffled that only Tamara seems to really understand what's happening here.

Yes, those mouth-breathing OC'ers are very much the Westboro baptist church of the RKBA/2A debate. But Starbucks didn't exclude them alone - they asked that ALL FIREARMS stay out of their kitten'n businesses.

How is that in any way ambiguous or open to interpretation meaning that CC is still okay? Is your CCW no longer a firearm because you're not openly waving it around like Jimmy Bob's Bushmaster?

Personally, I can't help but feel a few folks here love those $7 cups of coffee so much, they'd rather over-rationalize the *intent* of the message instead of actually just reading the kittening English, because that over-rationalization lets them keep drinking those ridiculous $7 cups of slop.

It's easy to boycott a business you rarely if ever frequent - and it's very difficult to boycott a business you've made a part of your daily routine.

So keep drinking that Starbucks - their market analysts that poured over that statement will thank you profusely for letting them say 'NO FIREARMS' with a minimal impact to their business.

[MDS]

Now, if people were going to be intellectually honest with me

That's a bit of a low blow, no? I've seen mostly intellectually honest comments here. Or at least, since honesty is hard to measure, logically self-consistent arguments.


Except the part where he says, you know, "don't bring guns in the store." He is making a polite request of you. Why won't you respect his politely-expressed wishes?

Listen, it's cool that you're taking his request literally and at face value. I respect that you're choosing to act accordingly. Unfortunately, I left my rainbows and unicorns in my other pants today, so I'm left to reading between the lines, considering context, and hacking together some field-expedient means of living ethically in a world that refuses to adopt my One True Moral Doctrine.

Sbux isn't all bad, you know. I personally know folks in Costs Rica that can afford to shoe their children because sbux goes out of their way to source coffee a certain way. I appreciate that, even as I acknowledge the decidedly unrainbowish reality that the profit motive is both necessary and sufficient for sbux's sourcing strategy. Just like Feinstein (am I allowed to use the F-word here?) they're not doing it for the children. Unlike the lady from California, they're behaving somewhat reasonably after being backed into a corner by a bunch of overzealous kittens.

As for the "hippie" comment, every coffee house I've seen with a no-guns sign - all one or two of them - are independent mom and pop stores. I smiled and hit the sbux down the road.

[Tamara]

Excellent, excellent summation of the Lessons of Starbucks here (http://www.pagunblog.com/2013/09/19/what-can-starbucks-teach-us-as-a-community/).

"When you've won, stop playing," is the quote of the day, and should be tattooed on the forehead of every ignorant jackwagon and dickweasel who went into Starbucks for the sole purpose of doing a sack dance selfie with his M4gery.

[jlw]

As I don't drink coffee,


Wait, what?


That's the craziest thing I have read on the internets today.


I don't either. I prefer cold and bubbly caffeine.

I will occasionally get a hot chocolate or apple cider there though.

[Tamara]

That's a bit of a low blow, no? I've seen mostly intellectually honest comments here. Or at least, since honesty is hard to measure, logically self-consistent arguments.

It was a bit harsh, yes, looking at it in retrospect.

Still, I think a bunch of people are hearing what they want to hear, here. "Oh, he doesn't mean me."

I'm an intown dwelling, Subie-driving, microbrew drinking, NPR-listening, locavore who keeps her gat concealed under Royal Robbins granolawear. Surely Mr. Schultz would understand that I'm okay, and it's just those icky Ted Nugent wannabes dragging their AKs into his places of business...

But I have enough of a gut feeling about what his clarification would be on the matter of "hidden guns" (remember, everybody, to the Left it's not "CCW", it's "hidden guns (http://www.toledoblade.com/Editorials/2012/07/10/Hidden-guns.html)") to be extremely hesitant about forcing the issue.

[Palmguy]

While we all know that it was the derpitrons OC'ing AR's that brought us to this precipice and eventually forced this response from Starbucks - I see absolutely no language in his statement that excludes any category of firearms based on size, appearance, or how they're carried. He said 'Please do not bring firearms into Starbucks'
Not 'Please don't OC in Starbucks'
Not 'Please don't carry long guns in Starbucks'

Never said that there was.


How is that in any way ambiguous or open to interpretation meaning that CC is still okay? Is your CCW no longer a firearm because you're not openly waving it around like Jimmy Bob's Bushmaster?

Personally, I can't help but feel a few folks here love those $7 cups of coffee so much, they'd rather over-rationalize the *intent* of the message instead of actually just reading the kittening English, because that over-rationalization lets them keep drinking those ridiculous $7 cups of slop.

I think most of us are reading the entire English....where Schultz lays out an 8 paragraph summary of the history of Starbucks with respect to open carry and the impact that it has had on them with respect to the national open carry discussion (to the extent that there is such a thing). I will repeat that there is no distinction made in that one sentence about method of carry or type of weapon, but this letter was written for one reason (money), with two components: 1. Starbucks doesn't want to be a part of the open carry debate ("To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores.") and 2. Starbucks doesn't want to upset their more hoplophobic customers ("The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.").

Again, not rationalizing anyone's response to this necessarily, but the bottom line from this letter is that Starbucks doesn't want their business kittenned with. People who stay below the radar as a matter of general practice in their lives and carry concealed are keeping with that objective, and as such I don't see the need to jump up on a soapbox and crucify them with "well, the letter said no weapons at all so there".

[BaiHu]

....Again, not rationalizing anyone's response to this necessarily, but the bottom line from this letter is that Starbucks doesn't want their business kittenned with. People who stay below the radar as a matter of general practice in their lives and carry concealed are keeping with that objective, and as such I don't see the need to jump up on a soapbox and crucify them with "well, the letter said no weapons at all so there".

Certainly a summation of my expressions.

[GardoneVT]

It was a bit harsh, yes, looking at it in retrospect.

Still, I think a bunch of people are hearing what they want to hear, here. "Oh, he doesn't mean me."

I'm an intown dwelling, Subie-driving, microbrew drinking, NPR-listening, locavore who keeps her gat concealed under Royal Robbins granolawear. Surely Mr. Schultz would understand that I'm okay, and it's just those icky Ted Nugent wannabes dragging their AKs into his places of business...

But I have enough of a gut feeling about what his clarification would be on the matter of "hidden guns" (remember, everybody, to the Left it's not "CCW", it's "hidden guns (http://www.toledoblade.com/Editorials/2012/07/10/Hidden-guns.html)") to be extremely hesitant about forcing the issue.

The crucial difference-
A customer lawfully carrying a concealed weapon doesn't impact the business negatively.Thus,no need to oppose the action.

An inbred fool walking about with an AKM as he orders his coffee likely offends a great deal of people,including the quiet weapon carriers in line behind him.That DOES negatively impact the business,as offended customers will pick a coffeehouse less populated by openly armed people with attention seeking issues.

Since concealed carry complies with the law and keeps the weapon in question concealed from view,it's logical to doubt Starbucks' management team would care.

[Tamara]

Internal video to Starbucks associates:


http://youtu.be/QJGK4AgMWRo

[Chuck Haggard]

YES YES YES YES YES

I think it would be great to get clarification and if what he really does say is, "If you have a lawfully concealed handgun we'd rather not have your business," then I'm with you and will comply with that wish. But I'd like an answer to that very pointed, specific question: if a lawful, licensed CCW holder is choosing between Startbucks and Donuts for a hot cup of black tar, would Starbucks like his business even if he's discreetly carrying a firearm?

It looks like he was trying to go with a combo policy of being a political Switzerland and a "don't ask/don't tell" gun policy. Just guessing.


Posted before watching the video

[ToddG]

Internal video to Starbucks associates:]

Again, I get what you're saying and I see how it's reasonable to interpret what he's saying as "no guns of any kind, period."

But look at his important point, when he tells employees not to confront gun-toters. Isn't that obviously about open carry? How would a coffee-pourer confront a CCWer?

He talks about how both sides have tried to politicize Starbucks on this issue and he clarifies multiple times that they are not taking a stance on guns.

His point: "Guns should not be part of the Starbucks experience." Does that mean they shouldn't exist in the store, or they shouldn't be part of what other customers (and employees) see/experience when at Starbucks?

I'm not trying to drive up the Starbucks stock price. I can't remember the last time I went to a Starbucks. And maybe I am just taking too blind-happy a view of what's being said. But seriously, in both what he wrote and what he said in that video, it seems so crystal clear to me that to this dude, "carrying guns" and OC are one and the same, inseparable, and it's that OC that has caused the company trouble.

Maybe they're being smart & coy by not saying anything about CCW, so the anti's can declare a win while we can still keep going to Starbucks. And maybe pushing the issue will force them to choose to put up "NO GUNS" signs. But really, that's just not how I'm reading all this. I see a company -- and a CEO -- shellshocked by the number of scary guys holding mini-political rallies in their stores and the number of angry soccermoms holding mini-political rallies in their stores and just saying: please, for the love of God, keep your gun politics out of our store!

[NEPAKevin]

Internal video to Starbucks associates:



I envision a parody video "We sell (kittening) coffee. Someone comes in, you take their (kittenting) money and give them a (kittening) cup of coffee. Is that so (kittening) hard? "

[LOKNLOD]

I swear, certain parts of the gun community could f*ck up a crow bar in a sandpit.

Here's a guy who is bending over backwards trying to do exactly what we so often wish businesses, celebrities, and other public figures would do - shut up on the issue and just butt out in an topic in which they have no stake. All they seem to want to do is keep making money hand over fist serving overpriced coffee to people jonesing to pay for it. God bless 'em for that, that's about as American as it gets.

Even internally, he seems to make it clear its just about trying to avoid being a pawn in the discussion, and even insists that if someone still brings a gun in after this request, they should still be served like any other customer and not be confronted or made uncomfortable. Clearly he's a gun hating douche, right? :rolleyes:

As for concealed versus open carry in their stores after this request - who gives a crap? Why are we debating this guy's semantics in how he talks about "carrying guns"?

As long as it's legal, concealed means concealed. If the law doesn't forbid me from being there while carrying concealed, and my weapon is concealed, then nobody is going to know that gun is there except me. End of story. Why is this an issue for everyone? I just don't get it. At such point they start to make an issue of putting up "no guns" or taking a direct anti-gun stance, then I'll worry about it. Until then, just drive on with your day and go about your business, gun or no gun. You're probably in 100 other places in any given day where if you were to ask, they'd tell you no guns. But you don't go around asking and worrying about it, do you? I sure as hell don't.

The best thing that can happen here Starbucks never sees another open carried gun ever again (and is full of folks quietly carrying concealed with no drama).

[Chuck Haggard]

^This^

[PPGMD]

Even internally, he seems to make it clear its just about trying to avoid being a pawn in the discussion...

That is how I read the entire thing. Starbucks doesn't want to take sides in the gun debate so they decided to simply allow whatever is legal to be legal in their stores. Second amendment supports wanted to show their support by holding appreciation days, simply days where they go buy Starbucks with at most some gun apparel on or use two dollar bills. But then the hardcore open carry crowd had to go screw things up by holding rallies at Starbucks.

[Tamara]

Even internally, he seems to make it clear its just about trying to avoid being a pawn in the discussion, and even insists that if someone still brings a gun in after this request, they should still be served like any other customer and not be confronted or made uncomfortable. Clearly he's a gun hating douche, right? :rolleyes:

Alright. You win at arguing on the internet.

He gets the interview asking for a clarification as to whether "no guns" means "no open guns (http://s793.photobucket.com/user/mskittie40/media/things.png.html)" or if hidden guns are still okay. Hope you're right!

I swear, gun owners could kitten up a crowbar.

[Erik]

I'll be very (pleasantly) surprised if he grants that interview.

[TR675]

Alright. You win at arguing on the internet.

He gets the interview asking for a clarification as to whether "no guns" means "no open guns (http://s793.photobucket.com/user/mskittie40/media/things.png.html)" or if hidden guns are still okay. Hope you're right!

I swear, gun owners could kitten up a crowbar.

Why not let this particular sleeping dog lie? As in, even if he grants you an interview, how could any answer he is likely to give accomplish anything positive other than proving someone wrong on the internet?

[Palmguy]

Alright. You win at arguing on the internet.

He gets the interview asking for a clarification as to whether "no guns" means "no open guns (http://s793.photobucket.com/user/mskittie40/media/things.png.html)" or if hidden guns are still okay. Hope you're right!

I swear, gun owners could kitten up a crowbar.

For kitten's sake...it seems like that's what you are intent on doing....

[ToddG]

This is why I love the forum. I can have an intelligent, calm debate here...

And then go full rant on my site:

Thanks, Idiots! (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8604)
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/oc-idiots-at-starbucks.jpg

[Tamara]

Why not let this particular sleeping dog lie? As in, even if he grants you an interview, how could any answer he is likely to give accomplish anything positive other than proving someone wrong on the internet?

Sigh. You're right, of course.

The borderline gaslighting going on here is just hair-pullingly frustrating.


"So, the CEO of Starbucks asked people not to bring firearms in their stores and..."

"No he didn't! He just said no open carry."

"No, that's not what he said. See? Here's a link. I'll quote."

"That's not what he meant, though!. He meant no open carry!"

"Then why did he say no firearms?"

"He didn't say 'no firearms'! He said 'no open carry'!"

"But I just showed you where..."

"Nope. No open carry."

Fine. Okay. Whatever gets people through the night.

[LOKNLOD]

Alright. You win at arguing on the internet.


:eek: there's something you don't hear often! :cool:



He gets the interview asking for a clarification as to whether "no guns" means "no open guns" or if hidden guns are still okay. Hope you're right!


I didn't intend to come across that I was pressing for an interview; I would fully expect for him to say, at least, "we'd prefer no guns at all" if forced to make a distinction.
They/He keep going out of their way to not take a side. I don't see any benefit in forcing them to take a side.

I'm firmly in the ask forgiveness, not permission camp on this one.




I swear, gun owners could kitten up a crowbar.

Is there an echo? :p

[GardoneVT]

This is why I love the forum. I can have an intelligent, calm debate here...

And then go full rant on my site:

Thanks, Idiots! (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8604)
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/oc-idiots-at-starbucks.jpg

Is his muzzle on that AR15 resting on the concrete?!!

Nothing like offending people AND abusing your gear in the process.

[ffhounddog]

I do not mind his stance on this I agree. Had to get on some guy at work going all crazy about this. He even has a picture of himself on his phone getting a drink at startbucks with a AR-10. Really? Last time I carried a rifle around into a coffee store I was in Iraq at Green Beans Coffee. I have planes that can take you to these places that you can do that. In fact I think there is a starbucks in the Congo that you can carry a AK.

I open carry at times because sometimes I just do, but really I agree there are some idiots who would screw up a wet dream because they do not know how to read.

[JodyH]

Why in the hell is the pro-carry side trying so hard to make something out of this?
Sheesh... a CEO who is more than likely ignorant of the nuances of firearms laws and practices sends out a non-binding open letter where he tries to straddle the fence and please everyone "we'd prefer you not carry, but if you do we aren't going to complain" and we just can't let it drop?!?
Starbucks is TRYING to remain ambivalent towards carry but we just can't have that now can we? By God we've got to FORCE them into taking a stand!
Guess what "stand" a coffee house based in Seattle that caters to upper-middle class white people and hipsters is going to take when they're forced to take it by rifle toting goobers who only show up to get their 15 minutes of YouTube fame?

Let it drop!

[NEPAKevin]

First they told the open carry people their guns were not welcome when they drink coffee, and I did not speak up, because I do not open carry when I drink coffee ...

[Tamara]

Guess what "stand" a coffee house based in Seattle that caters to upper-middle class white people and hipsters is going to take...

Don't have to guess. Know. 'Specially 'cause they've already taken it (http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Starbucks-Letter-Internal.jpg).

[ToddG]

First they told the open carry people their guns were not welcome when they drink coffee, and I did not speak up, because I do not open carry when I drink coffee ...

I hope that's supposed to be a joke.

"First they told child rapists..."

[JodyH]

First they told the open carry people their guns were not welcome when they drink coffee, and I did not speak up, because I do not open carry when I drink coffee ...
Head on down to the NRA headquarters with your open carry handgun and slung AR and see if they'll serve you a cup of coffee.

[JodyH]

Don't have to guess. Know. 'Specially 'cause they've already taken it.
Ambivalence with a hint of hostility?
OK... take your money elsewhere.
But don't act like an ass and force them into open hostility.

Right now corporate policy and the corresponding legalities of open or concealed carry in a Starbucks HAVE NOT CHANGED.
NOTHING has changed except they'd prefer you not carry in their stores, they haven't TOLD you carry is prohibited and if you do carry they aren't going to say anything.

[NEPAKevin]

I hope that's supposed to be a joke.



Mixture of sarcasm and dry humor.

[ToddG]

Head on down to the NRA headquarters with your open carry handgun and slung AR and see if they'll serve you a cup of coffee.

Open carry of handguns is allowed. Weapons must be holstered or cased; "slung" doesn't count as either per their rules.

I'm not fond of pistol open carry, but I don't think it's nearly as problematic, frightening to the masses, nor headline-grabbing as the guys with their ARs, AKs, and 870s parading through suburbia.

[LOKNLOD]

Now that I think a bit more on this, it's funny how 'bucks didn't tell the Moms Against Whatever to take a hike also.

I though about that as well, but it's kind of hard to ask them to stop showing up and sitting around without guns. Know what I mean? The "problem" seems to be that people are showing up displaying weapons and at best, making some folks uncomfortable, or at worst, causing a big scene and making asses out of themselves (and getting the otherside riled up and doing stupid stuff).

The Moms Demand Action* crew is a problem, but I'm not so much sure Starbucks is perceiving them as the problem. Guns go away, they go away too, right?



*sounds like something on late night Cinemax

[Tamara]

I'm not fond of pistol open carry, but I don't think it's nearly as problematic, frightening to the masses, nor headline-grabbing as the guys with their ARs, AKs, and 870s parading through suburbia.

The thing that very few of the Radical OC types seem to have caught on to is that if they adhere to a business casual dress code, carry in non-ramshackle-looking holster, and maintain grooming standards, it's only the rarest of actual hoplophobes who will even notice the gun. No dumb "CCW badge" even required.

[ToddG]

it's only the rarest of actual hoplophobes who will even notice the gun.

... thus circumventing their entire motivation for carrying openly in the first place, which is to get noticed.

The logic of it has never been able to penetrate my admittedly thick skull. If you think open carry is a God-given natural right that the government cannot infringe, then how does carrying a gun make you special in any way, shape, or form? You're doing something anyone could do if he wanted to. It's like thinking you're cool because you're breathing oxygen.

Idiots. Idiots idiots idiots.

[GardoneVT]

The open carriers remind me of the car show JDM morons I used to hang out with in Chicago.

Back in my high school days I drove an import,and boy was that just the in crowd thing for my clique .Wed meet up in Mall parking lots ,exhausts blaring and music blasting ,wondering why people kept asking us to leave.Why would the cops harrass us wed say.Were not breaking the law!!!!

What us douchbags-myself included-failed to process is that revving engines and blasting loud music in a high end Chicago shopping mall is offensive to everyone not into niche JDM cars-read,everyone else there.It was legal for us to be there,but that didn't make it a good idea.Which is why the police kept booting us out every time we met.Eventually malls started banning "parking meets" ,and last I heard a few suburbs attached fines to anyone meeting in public to show off cars.

I don't own that car anymore,and it's been years since I've even visited the city.But I doubt we won any hearts and minds,and odds are our immature BS meets instigated the legislation which banned them.Pissing off paying customers has that effect.

[HCM]

Wait, are there restaurants that do ban children? Do you have a list? Is there a newsletter to which I can subscribe?

Todd,

The food is not as good as Chili's but but you may want to try Applebees next time you do a TX class...

Family says they were kicked out of Applebee’s over children’s ‘active’ behavior

http://www.khou.com/news/local/Family-kicked-out-of-Applebees-over-childrens-active-behavior-224343621.html

[BLR]

I though about that as well, but it's kind of hard to ask them to stop showing up and sitting around without guns. Know what I mean? The "problem" seems to be that people are showing up displaying weapons and at best, making some folks uncomfortable, or at worst, causing a big scene and making asses out of themselves (and getting the otherside riled up and doing stupid stuff).

The Moms Demand Action* crew is a problem, but I'm not so much sure Starbucks is perceiving them as the problem. Guns go away, they go away too, right?



*sounds like something on late night Cinemax

Yeah. I know. Still.............

Just for the record, if for no other reason than avoiding a ND by a toolbox, I'd steer clear of that little "appreciation" gathering. Retards coonfingering shotguns is a recipe for national news worthy stupidity.

[Tamara]

They see me sippin'
They hatin'
Patrollin'
Tryin' ta catch me latte-in' dirty.

[JAD]

Wait, are there restaurants that do ban children? Do you have a list? Is there a newsletter to which I can subscribe?

Just go to the restaurants that my family visits, the next day.

[Clyde from Carolina]

The idiot open carry guys who do these events at Starbucks remind me of neanderthals who clubbed a mate, dragged her into the village center, and sat on top of her to show off to their rivals. "Look at what Og do!"

Because yeah, intimidating a company's customers is always a brilliant way to keep that company in your corner. I'm simply surprised it took Starbucks this long to respond. I can easily imagine some pro-open carry group deciding to have a pro-gun "in your face" event at Starbucks in the wake of the Navy Yard shooting, and I can very easily imagine Starbucks changing their policy if that's what was necessary to get it out of the limelight of a 2A fight it doesn't want to be part of.

This ^^ this^^ Amen!

Didn't have time to read through the whole thread, but oh yeah, this.

I have a good buddy who is a veteran LEO and I saw him a while back carrying off-duty "openly" in public and just didn't have time -- in a public place-- to ask what he was thinking. A complex issue for sure, but I just don't get the open carry stuff.

[LOKNLOD]

They see me sippin'
They hatin'
Patrollin'
Tryin' ta catch me latte-in' dirty.

Woke Up Quick, At About Noon
Jus' Thought That I Had To get a latte Soon
I Gotta gun up Before The Day Begins
Before Moms Demand Action rally their friends
Walk to the store and whatta I find
Starbucks got no gun buster Signs
Back to The House, And Grabbed Ma Clip
Wit The Serpa On The Side Of Ma Hip
Step to the counter and order my drink
Don't give a crap what the libtards think
Bout the AR slung on my back
Like my coffee like my rifle hot and black
Double shot expresso, side'a freedom
I got rights, don't like it? Read'em
Soccer moms giving me the evil eye
I just smile, let the Navy Jack fly

[Chorus:]
Coz the boyz must OC just to make a point
Dont wanna look for another coffee joint
Knowin' Nutin In Life But to be legit
Even if ol' Shultz asks us to quit

[BaiHu]

Killing it lately, LOKNLOD :D

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

The OC crowd has discovered my blog post and they are not happy. :cool:


Dan I was at gunpoint because DHS was illegally detaining me and demanding I ID to them….. that’s a fight you would never understand because you would of shivered down and complied to your master..


...the sheep have drank the kool-aid to long brother… no sense in trying to speak to truths and facts. They operate under permission we operate under liberty.

And then there's Justin... he's said too many awesome things to choose just one.

[LHS]

The OC crowd has discovered my blog post and they are not happy. :cool:





And then there's Justin... he's said too many awesome things to choose just one.

I'm going to regret chiming in, but I have never been much good at abiding stupidity.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The OC crowd has discovered my blog post and they are not happy. :cool:





And then there's Justin... he's said too many awesome things to choose just one.

..I need brain bleach.

[KeeFus]

..I need brain bleach.

I woke up this morning to read PT.com...I need to go back to sleep now because my brain can only take so much idiocy. Another cup of coffee please... :D

[Clyde from Carolina]

Yeah, me too. Some of those OC'er comments...wow.

[PT Doc]

It's like thinking you're cool because you're breathing oxygen.

They use the open mouth technique. It's more gooder.

[Joe in PNG]

Reading that thread was like watching one of those "Truth" anti smoking ads that make one want to run out and huff down two packs of unfiltered Camels at once. I was thiiiis close to wanting to sign up for that Brady gun ban thingy... and I LIKE guns dangit!

[NickA]

The OC crowd has discovered my blog post and they are not happy. :cool:





And then there's Justin... he's said too many awesome things to choose just one.

And if I'm reading it right (hard to tell with the blood running out of my eyes) at least one of those halfwits is from TX. First Grebner, now this dude. On behalf of the Lone Star State, my sincerest apologies :mad:
At the very least I'd like to see some common courtesy from these guys. Starbucks has IMO respectfully requested that "ya'll take that stuff outside"; if someone acted the same way on their property no doubt we'd get a tirade about property rights. Oh the irony.

[Palmguy]

The OC crowd has discovered my blog post and they are not happy. :cool:





And then there's Justin... he's said too many awesome things to choose just one.

My head hurts.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Tamara]

And if I'm reading it right (hard to tell with the blood running out of my eyes) at least one of those halfwits is from TX.

A bunch of 'em are; apparently it got linked at the OpenCarryTexas forum.

Texas and Florida's inane absolute bans on open carry ironically turn our two most populous "gun friendly" (at least relatively so) states into breeding grounds for these mouth-breathing simpletons. Y'all hurry up and do away with your OC prohibitions so these nerf herders will go seek attention elsewhere and stink up somebody else's image.

[NickA]

A bunch of 'em are; apparently it got linked at the OpenCarryTexas forum.

Texas and Florida's inane absolute bans on open carry ironically turn our two most populous "gun friendly" (at least relatively so) states into breeding grounds for these mouth-breathing simpletons. Y'all hurry up and do away with your OC prohibitions so these nerf herders will go seek attention elsewhere and stink up somebody else's image.

Ya know, I wasn't real concerned with them passing OC this time, other than for protection against accidental exposure of a concealed gun (I was more concerned with doing away with the prohibited places).
But when you put it that way... I may be forced to advocate for OC, just so said nerf herders will sit down and STFU. Good grief.

[RoyGBiv]

Y'all hurry up and do away with your OC prohibitions so these nerf herders will go seek attention elsewhere and stink up somebody else's image.
The foaming at the mouth OC crowd has sufficiently alienated even the most gun-friendly state congresscritters that even our in-state NRA board members have had to back away from overtly supporting OC legislation, for risk of their political capital. Things like campus carry and eliminating other off-limits CC places are achievable goals in TX. OC might be possible, but the "I WANT MY RIGHTS NOW" crowd is their own worst enemy. They fail to realize that 100 years of incremental erosion is better remedied by incremental reconstruction. It's not the politicians they need to win over, it's their neighbors, their fellow Starbucks drinkers, the voters. Every time they alienate a voter, it's one step back for OC in TX.

[Chuck Haggard]

Irony, it's ironic;

Off-duty cop stops armed robbery at Starbucks

http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/172377151.html?lc=Smart


Yeah, I know, he has a badge, but he easily could have not had a badge with the exact same outcome. Perfect that it was a Bucks.

[RoyGBiv]

protection against accidental exposure of a concealed gun
We did get some very good "accidental exposure" protection accomplished this session. You might not have read SB 299 (enrolled) (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/SB00299F.htm).

Emphasis added.


TX PC 46.035 Was:
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder
carries a h andgun on or about the license holder's person under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and
intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Effective 1-Sept-13, 46.035 is revised to:
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person
in a public place.

[RoyGBiv]

Irony, it's ironic;

Off-duty cop stops armed robbery at Starbucks

http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/172377151.html?lc=Smart


Yeah, I know, he has a badge, but he easily could have not had a badge with the exact same outcome. Perfect that it was a Bucks.
October 2012.
I hate when they fail to post dates on "news" web sites...
For some reason your link didn't have the date and mine does... same station. Maybe yours was the mobile version?

http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/172377151.html

[Chuck Haggard]

Todd, what I see s little of out of the "IT"S MY RIGHTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" jerk offs is the idea that with any right comes responsibility.

Looking at the "regulated" part in historical context folks would have responsibilities to uphold in the context of going and being armed, IMHO. Looking up the old militia acts and the context of the times in which the founding fathers meant when the 2nd was written, we see that there was an expectation of one owning AND training with said arms to what was considered to be a standard.

That one should be competent seems to go without saying. Guys like Washington and Jefferson certainly wouldn't have supported the idea of one striving to be incompetent or ignorant. Nor would they have supported the idea of tactical idiocy.

[Chuck Haggard]

October 2012.
I hate when they fail to post dates on "news" web sites...
For some reason your link didn't have the date and mine does... same station. Maybe yours was the mobile version?

http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/172377151.html


Fun sucker.............


Yeah, was posted on one of the cop websites I'm on, no date to it.

[NickA]

We did get some very good "accidental exposure" protection accomplished this session. You might not have read SB 299 (enrolled) (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/SB00299F.htm).

Emphasis added.

Thanks, I was vaguely aware of it but haven't had time to read up. That's one reason I'm kind of ambivalent about them doing them away with renewal training; at least with that you'd get the straight dope every 4 years.
I have to renew this month, and it seems there's enough confusion about how to do that, since DPS apparently hasn't updated their renewal site to fit the new (lack of) requirements.

[Tamara]

That's one reason I'm kind of ambivalent about them doing them away with renewal training...

Mandatory training is a barrier to the exercise of a right by the indigent unless the state provides it for free. Indiana and Georgia, to name two, do just fine without mandatory training. Efforts to do away with it in TN are opposed by the anti-gun lobby and, of course, certified firearms trainers.

It's nice to see the Brady Bunch help defend James Yeager's rice bowl.

[TR675]

Texas and Florida's inane absolute bans on open carry ironically turn our two most populous "gun friendly" (at least relatively so) states into breeding grounds for these mouth-breathing simpletons. Y'all hurry up and do away with your OC prohibitions so these nerf herders will go seek attention elsewhere and stink up somebody else's image.

I don't know, Activists need something to activistate about. I kind of like the fact that they have this particular inconsequential issue to fuss over. Who knows what inanity they would move to next.

[NEPAKevin]

Ya know, I wasn't real concerned with them passing OC this time, other than for protection against accidental exposure of a concealed gun (I was more concerned with doing away with the prohibited places).
But when you put it that way... I may be forced to advocate for OC, just so said nerf herders will sit down and STFU. Good grief.

You probably shouldn't get your hopes up. OC is legal in PA and the "either you OC or you are part of the problem, 2A-pride" movements are alive and well.

A couple minutes reading PAFOA's Open Carry board (http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/) should remove any doubt.

[KeeFus]

You know, it generally takes roughly 12 hours of dip-shittery (give or take 15 minutes) to give me a headache. They did it in less than 5 minutes.

They keep thinking they're championing the 2A by being stupid and going balls-to-the-wall with OC. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

ETA: Yea, see that post below posted by Palmguy. Headache!

[Palmguy]

Wow.


This is why two CHLs had a firefight over a road rage incident and both ended up dead. They each thought they had the upper hand. Had they both been openly armed, they both may have thought better of their next actions.

Speaking of CHL folks, such as yourselves, exactly how are you representing 2A rights when you are gunning each other down. All we did was drink some coffee. You guys kill each other. Of course I dont rant about you guys killing each other because I am smart enough to know better. It would be nice if you guys would reciprocate and engage a few brain cells too.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Tamara]

It would be nice if you guys would ... engage a few brain cells too.

Thank god that irony doesn't actually burn.

[Chuck Haggard]

Holy kittens, that has to be the most retarded thing I have read on the intardnets in a long time.

[ffhounddog]

I am not anti OC Carry it has its place but some people use it as a statement or status symbol. I do not agree with that it is a tool. If you wnat a status symbol dress up a bit and look nice instead of going to a store witha wifebeater, shorts, flip flops, and a AK. I might think I am in the Congo or something if you do that and have some kind of flashback.

[GardoneVT]

If open carry were so awesome,then why does the Secret Service spend money on professionally tailored suits to HIDE guns?

Could it perhaps be due to the social truth that openly carried weapons offend bystanders?Naa,the internet says it's because they're anti RKBA Feds.That must be it.

[ToddG]

Efforts to do away with it in TN are opposed by the anti-gun lobby and, of course, certified firearms trainers.

Really? Wow.

As a firearms instructor, I am personally opposed to any person who thinks he is ready to carry a firearm in public without at least some basic training. Personally, I don't think a single state's minimum training requirement is adequate to the task. Plenty of people at the range and at matches have CCW permits and not only can't they hit a damn thing under stress, they can't handle their guns safely on a square range.

But as a firearms owner, I understand, respect, and fight for the right of every law-abiding, sane American to own and carry a firearm, period, stop. No training requirements, no fees, no licenses... it's a RIGHT and should be respected as such by every state and local government in the country.

While I would hope more people would understand the responsibility that comes with the right, I am utterly opposed to legislating it. Punish those who make mistakes, not those who haven't had a chance to make a mistake yet...

[Tamara]

Really? Wow.

Really. "All laws are either rent-seeking or fence-building," as Shootin' Buddy is fond of saying.

Heck, my old boss got irked at me for expressing a desire to see the mandatory training requirement go away in Tennessee, but at least he was honest enough to frame his argument in terms of the parking lot full of cars for the Saturday morning CCW classes.

Obviously not all firearms trainers think this way, but a large enough percentage are good ol' fallible, greedy humans to keep it entrenched in TN. From the fees collected by the DPS for certification to the ~$100/student collected for the class, there's a lotta rice in that bowl to guard. :(

[SecondsCount]

I am going to open carry this weekend and see if I can offend a few gun owners...

[Tamara]

I am going to open carry this weekend and see if I can offend a few gun owners...

It'll help if you bring a camera and get all up in the face of someone who is clearly uncomfortable with the sight of your firearm. That makes it more offensive.

Also, make sure you carry it in the best spring-clip nylon sausage sack you got, too; that will offend me, especially if it's about to fall off your 1" canvas belt and onto the terrazzo in the food court.

[GardoneVT]

I am going to open carry this weekend and see if I can offend a few gun owners...

Meh, theyll just assume youre plainclothes LE .

[Dagga Boy]

The foaming at the mouth OC crowd has sufficiently alienated even the most gun-friendly state congresscritters that even our in-state NRA board members have had to back away from overtly supporting OC legislation, for risk of their political capital. Things like campus carry and eliminating other off-limits CC places are achievable goals in TX. OC might be possible, but the "I WANT MY RIGHTS NOW" crowd is their own worst enemy. They fail to realize that 100 years of incremental erosion is better remedied by incremental reconstruction. It's not the politicians they need to win over, it's their neighbors, their fellow Starbucks drinkers, the voters. Every time they alienate a voter, it's one step back for OC in TX.

As a recent transplant to Texas I have immersed myself in "Texasness" (don't want to be one of those Californians who move somewhere and screw it up). The gist I get from the folks I hang around with (all gun toting conservatives) is that OC in urban areas is simply "rude", which means something here. The OC crowd has a utopia where every American is walking around openly armed. I don't want to live in that country. The reality is it will not look like a mid-century western movie with kind folks in white cowboy hats and a fancy Buscedero gun-belt saying "howdy" to their armed neighbors. Nope, it will look like Mogadishu. Go to some crappy area of town, and see if that would be well served with legal open carry. Especially, with the other big OC love for not having to show the "authorities" any sort of I.D., permit, or anything else to establish that they are legal eligible to own a firearm. Open carry has never been particularly accepted in urban areas. Most of your gunfighters of the 1800's carried concealed "in town". The idea of the peacefulness of the openly armed and polite society is fiction. Check the murder rates of a place like Bodie, CA. versus a major city today.

I will predict that Texas will go the way of California with this. Open carry in California was legal to allow hunters, and those involved in outdoor activities to carry their firearms in a practical manner in the outdoors. After all, NOBODY would really bring a long gun into a mall? Guess what, when people started doing their stupid "I am educating the hoplophobes and jack booted thugs on my rights"...the hoplophobes and the BOSSES of the "Jack booted thugs" legislated your "right" into a crime...congratulations. Most line police officers are not anti CCW. Guess who was getting baited into the encounters with the OC advocates, and now they hate them. Most regular folks in Texas are fairly Pro-gun and it is one of the most "Pro-AR-15's are normal" places I have ever been. That is until they start seeing AR's at Starbucks, and then we get back blast. Somewhere in Houston, Austin, South Dallas, or San Antonio, I guarantee some politician is planning to be the advocate to ban open carry of long guns. They will have the backing of the local L/E politician/chief because the pieces of crap in both Aurora and Newtown were simply "open carry advocates" up until the second they pulled the trigger. People (including me) want the police called when someone is walking into the mall with an Ar-15 or an AK. They will sell this as the reason we "need" open carry bans of long guns, and just like that, the voters in the "triangle" will make it illegal. Why, because even the people who carry concealed in Texas (which is a lot), don't think that the "right" to carry an AK to the movies is worth defending...and that is how the media will spin it.
I wrote a very well received article to make a case for why there is nothing wrong with so-called "assault weapons" that got a lot of traction from church groups to hunting groups who didn't understand why anyone would "need" an assault weapon. I am waiting for someone to come up with a wonderful explanation of the benefits of open carry to society or why we should change our social norms for open urban carry (I left out rural open carry for a reason, it is where it is considered a norm). I predict that what is going to happen is that legislation will end up passing here that will be used to prevent open carry of any firearm as a response to this stuff and the people it is going to affect are the ones that legal open carry of long guns was designed to protect-hunters in the field, ranchers moving between private property areas, outdoors folks, and those in other pursuits where open carry of a long gun is a cultural and social norm-which is not Starbucks at the mall.

[SecondsCount]

It'll help if you bring a camera and get all up in the face of someone who is clearly uncomfortable with the sight of your firearm. That makes it more offensive.

Also, make sure you carry it in the best spring-clip nylon sausage sack you got, too; that will offend me, especially if it's about to fall off your 1" canvas belt and onto the terrazzo in the food court.

Good job at generalizing. :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Good job at generalizing. :rolleyes:

Well, how the heck are you going to offend me by open carrying if you don't do that stuff? Merely open carrying doesn't offend me at all. I did it from 9-to-5 for most of my adult life, after all.

[ToddG]

I wonder how the paragons of liberty & freedom at these open carry rallies would feel if a bunch of folks showed up to stand among them, posing for the media, with giant signs saying "GUNS SHOULD BE BANNED" and "THESE PEOPLE SCARE MY CHILDREN" and such. I mean, they'd just be exercising their 1st Amendment rights, yes?

The way they're doing it, and the place & time, might offend or bother some of the other people there but IT'S THEIR RIGHT!

[Chuck Haggard]

Kind of like this sort of thing;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd5afiejqWs

[Tamara]

kind of like this sort of thing;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd5afiejqws

1784

ccw ftw

[Chuck Haggard]

The real issue, IMHO, being the human tendency towards jihad mentality in some folks, regardless of what issue they are jihading about.

[SecondsCount]

Well, how the heck are you going to offend me by open carrying if you don't do that stuff? Merely open carrying doesn't offend me at all. I did it from 9-to-5 for most of my adult life, after all.

Got it. One of our state representatives showed up at the last NRA meeting with his G26 in what looked to be an Uncle Mike's nylon special. Should I have pulled him aside and scolded him? :p

[TCinVA]

The comments section on Todd's blog just taught me that the only reason I think an openly carried gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil is because I've been "conditioned" to think that way.

[SecondsCount]

The comments section on Todd's blog just taught me that the only reason I think an openly carried gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil is because I've been "conditioned" to think that way.

Yep, I have never understood that argument, nor the argument that open carrying makes you a target.

[Tamara]

Got it. One of our state representatives showed up at the last NRA meeting with his G26 in what looked to be an Uncle Mike's nylon special. Should I have pulled him aside and scolded him? :p

I'd have offered to spring for at least one of their $20 kydex jobbies for him.

How about his belt? I'd have been more worried about that. I have given people belts before. I usually have four or five more-or-less interchangable black belts, both rigger's-style and leather, and I'll be glad to help a toter out if I can, rather than watch their crappy holster go half inverted every time they sit down.

(Also? Plumber's crack draws unneeded attention to the pistol and vice versa. Just say no to crack.)

[RoyGBiv]

I predict that what is going to happen is that legislation will end up passing here that will be used to prevent open carry of any firearm as a response to this stuff and the people it is going to affect are the ones that legal open carry of long guns was designed to protect-hunters in the field, ranchers moving between private property areas, outdoors folks, and those in other pursuits where open carry of a long gun is a cultural and social norm-which is not Starbucks at the mall.
This MAY happen, but it would take a precipitating event much more severe than some guys toting MSR's to get coffee.
The Senate is 61% Republican, and the House 63%. But, even the D's know that going against guns is political suicide (well, most of them).

Honestly I think OC has a solid chance of passing in TX if two things happen....
1. We need a conservative speaker, not a RINO. That would require that nearly all republicans agree on a conservative candidate, to override the D vote for Speaker Straus. Basically, Straus (an R) has the D vote locked up (the D's know they can't elect a D speaker, so they are in cahoots with Straus), plus enough R's to make him speaker. Fix this and OC (and other goodies) will make it to the floor for a vote, and it will pass.

2. In order to accomplish #1, the OC crowd needs to shut the kitten up and work within the system. As much as that feels like "capitulation", it's the fastest way to achieve their desired ends. Too bad they can't see past their gas blocks. (pun intended)

[Tamara]

2. In order to accomplish #1, the OC crowd needs to shut the kitten up and work within the system. As much as that feels like "capitulation", it's the fastest way to achieve their desired ends. Too bad they can't see past their gas blocks. (pun intended)

The guys in Florida seem to be going about it in a relatively professional fashion with their fishing trips to point out the silliness of Florida's restrictions, the outreach from which is intended to get more awareness to back up their lobbying efforts. I'm sure they have their share of nutbars, but they seem pretty orderly and organized.

[Tamara]

Also, my Second Annual Open Carry Vacation is coming up, since New Mexico won't recognize my Hoosier toter's permit. Something about no shooting qualification. I tried to see if they'd accept my 300/300 at MAG-40, but they haven't gotten back to me...

[ToddG]

Yep, I have never understood that argument, nor the argument that open carrying makes you a target.

SC -- regarding the talisman thing, I don't think you qualify. That's part of what gets lost in these debates... there's a difference between someone who OCs on occasion (or even by preference) in a community-appropriate way and the jihadis who insist on waving an AK47 around at the mall just to prove they can.

As for the "open carry makes you a target" thing, there are certainly precedents. Just ask the folks at the Navy Yard who were shot with the Beretta Alexis took from a security guard. Another story I remember vividly happened right after the Veteran Affairs Police finally became an armed police force last decade. An officer at a security checkpoint in Puerto Rico had a gang of thugs descend on him and beat him to death for the sole purpose of stealing his gun.

People often like to use cops as an example of why OC is superior, but thing about some simple facts:


uniformed police officers are forced to fight over, and are killed by, their own handguns much more frequently than officers or citizens who are carrying concealed; and,
the vast, vast, vast majority of police officers who do carry off-duty do so concealed, not open even though they could OC if they chose to do so.


OC scares away the meek but makes you a target for the guys who are strong, smart, and/or organized enough to think they can take it away from you. CCW might not scare away the meek, but it doesn't provide a special target indicator on my hip for the most violently predatory. If I have to be more attractive to one or the other, I'd like it to be the meek guy who tries to mug me, thanks.

[Tamara]

The comments section on Todd's blog just taught me that ...

...I might have been unjustifiably harsh on the whole idea of eugenics. :o

[ToddG]

...I might have been unjustifiably harsh on the whole idea of eugenics. :o

I think that counts as a Godwin's Law Event.

[Dagga Boy]

This MAY happen, but it would take a precipitating event much more severe than some guys toting MSR's to get coffee.
The Senate is 61% Republican, and the House 63%. But, even the D's know that going against guns is political suicide (well, most of them).

Honestly I think OC has a solid chance of passing in TX if two things happen....
1. We need a conservative speaker, not a RINO. That would require that nearly all republicans agree on a conservative candidate, to override the D vote for Speaker Straus. Basically, Straus (an R) has the D vote locked up (the D's know they can't elect a D speaker, so they are in cahoots with Straus), plus enough R's to make him speaker. Fix this and OC (and other goodies) will make it to the floor for a vote, and it will pass.

2. In order to accomplish #1, the OC crowd needs to shut the kitten up and work within the system. As much as that feels like "capitulation", it's the fastest way to achieve their desired ends. Too bad they can't see past their gas blocks. (pun intended)

Like I said, open carry was never an issue in California (of all places), UNTIL the education started. It educated alright. I have a suspicion that most of the legislature "envisions" open carry as some ranchers going to the town cafe to get coffee with their sixshooter in a Tom Threepersons rig out in the country. Wait till the Dem's and the police chiefs and urban sheriff's (not the rural county sheriff's) start with the "pictures and videos" of what will happen with legalization. Wait till someone points out that open carry includes "everybody". For every church going youth pastor with a open carry pistol, also comes some hoodlum (of any color or race) with their "Hoodie and Hi-point" urban thug fashion package to cruise the mall in.

If I am wrong and this becomes the norm in Texas, I promise I will not embarrass anyone here. I am going to be packing the most bad a## 1911 with some serious bling bling leather art:p. What's funny, I have yet to see a "Texas BBQ" rig in Texas (and most people haven't a clue what the heck I am talking about) that rivals the Texas BBQ rigs from people in other places that think that people here have them:confused:.

[Tamara]

What's funny, I have yet to see a "Texas BBQ" rig in Texas (and most people haven't a clue what the heck I am talking about) that rivals the Texas BBQ rigs from people in other places that think that people here have them:confused:.

Get in touch with my friend in the north part of the state (http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/03/court-guns-and-bbq-guns.html); he'll get you the hook up. :D

[Noleshooter]

I think that counts as a Godwin's Law Event.

Not if you use the original Eugenics programs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eugenics_Society

*post made in jest*

[Tamara]

Not if you use the original Eugenics programs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eugenics_Society

*post made in jest*

I don't know if this program (http://newsinfo.iu.edu/web/page/normal/5161.html)* would have prevented that comment thread or not, but having suffered through reading about two thirds of the comments at Todd's blog, suddenly I'm feeling all "Let's not be too hasty, here!" about it.


(*Yes, it's true: The Indiana State Fair used to have judging for human babies right along with the little horsies and piggies. We are not as far from some really creepy stuff in our past here in America as we'd like to think.)

[TCinVA]

Just ask the folks at the Navy Yard who were shot with the Beretta Alexis took from a security guard.

This.

There are people out there who, shortly after it was clear that a malevolent actor planned an attack by targeting those he knew to be armed first, will still argue that malevolent actors won't target those they know to be armed.

It's well past the point of honest disagreement into complete delusion.

[RoyGBiv]

Like I said, open carry was never an issue in California (of all places), UNTIL the education started.
I guess what I was trying to say earlier is that TX is not yet CA.
Californians were looking for an excuse to shut down OC. Texans are smart enough to (eventually) see that the OC-zealots are out of bounds and need to be shouted down, well before anything legislatively bad comes of it. I see it as causing braking, not changing to reverse. But, what do I know? I've only been here 10 years, I'm certainly not a native.

[ToddG]

Californians were looking for an excuse to shut down OC.

Right. After the OC jihad started walking around shopping malls and other places with their rifles slung over their shoulders. The issue was quiet and dormant for a long, long time until a few nitwits decided to show the word how PATRIOT! they are... and managed to drive yet another nail into the RKBA coffin in California.

They gave the politicians, the lobbyists, and the media lots of footage and examples of people doing scary things with guns and helped push the anti-gun agenda.

[Dagga Boy]

Like I said, nobody was saying boo about OC in California until the urban "movement" and using it to forward a second amendment political agenda (most of which I agreed with). So instead of better CCW laws, California got more restrictive carry laws....great work. I have a suspicion that many in Texas wouldn't be opposed to situation where a CHL would also allow for OC, but that is not what is coming across. What you will get is that a lot of the businesses that have the "no illegal carry" signs will become "no guns period", and there will be some major back blast when the zealots start to pull more stunts. Much of this is carry over of States rights and anti government feelings that are common here. I have a feeling that people will not be so happy with results when you have thug O/C and the "Occupy" people decide that this is a good way to make a public statement as well.

[jlw]

Like I said, nobody was saying boo about OC in California until the urban "movement" and using it to forward a second amendment political agenda (most of which I agreed with). So instead of better CCW laws, California got more restrictive carry laws....great work. I have a suspicion that many in Texas wouldn't be opposed to situation where a CHL would also allow for OC, but that is not what is coming across. What you will get is that a lot of the businesses that have the "no illegal carry" signs will become "no guns period", and there will be some major back blast when the zealots start to pull more stunts. Much of this is carry over of States rights and anti government feelings that are common here. I have a feeling that people will not be so happy with results when you have thug O/C and the "Occupy" people decide that this is a good way to make a public statement as well.

GA law actually requires the GWCL whether carrying open or concealed.

[Dagga Boy]

GA law actually requires the GWCL whether carrying open or concealed.

Can L/E ask to see it if a call is generated or there is an issue. I got the impression from your interview that its required, but you don't have to show it.

[ToddG]

What you will get is that a lot of the businesses that have the "no illegal carry" signs will become "no guns period", and there will be some major back blast when the zealots start to pull more stunts.

Like, uh, Starbucks. Why can't the extreme wing of the OC jihad understand that?

Every time they try to celebrate their awesomeness by co-opting someone else's business, they force that business to choose between (1) allowing a bunch of rifle-wearing, photo op-hungry morons to drive away business or (2) banning guns.

Starbucks is trying to walk a thin line down the middle and what is going to happen? The Red Brigade OC Party will push the issue, show up with their guns slung for everyone to see, raise more ire from the Moms group, Brady, et al, and force -- force -- Starbucks to take a firm, final stance against guns.

[Savage Hands]

I guess what I was trying to say earlier is that TX is not yet CA.
Californians were looking for an excuse to shut down OC. Texans are smart enough to (eventually) see that the OC-zealots are out of bounds and need to be shouted down, well before anything legislatively bad comes of it. I see it as causing braking, not changing to reverse. But, what do I know? I've only been here 10 years, I'm certainly not a native.



No they were not! Nyeti had it correct when he said that it wasn't a problem until they tried to "educate" the public. And plenty of us were behind the Calguns Foundation in trying to tone down the Open Carry groups well before legislation was introduced.
Once the snowball got rolling...

[jlw]

Can L/E ask to see it if a call is generated or there is an issue. I got the impression from your interview that its required, but you don't have to show it.

Someone obviously hasn't listened to the radio interview (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9606-I-channeled-my-inner-Sparks2112) I linked on the forum yesterday. My feelings are hurt. :mad::cool:

[Tamara]

Starbucks is trying to walk a thin line down the middle and what is going to happen?

You mean "Starbucks WAS trying to walk a thin line down the middle and look what happenED."

If someone's carrying a gun in there today, it's against the clearly expressed wishes of the CEO.

[Savage Hands]

You mean "Starbucks WAS trying to walk a thin line down the middle and look what happenED."

If someone's carrying a gun in there today, it's against the expressed wishes of the CEO.



We got your point about two dozen posts ago...

[Tamara]

We got your point about two dozen posts ago...

Apparently not. :p

[Savage Hands]

Apparently not. :p


I was trying to be nice and not say nearly 3 dozen :cool:

[john556]

Just saw the blog entry and comments it's garnered. It has begun!

I never knew Gavrilo Princip carried a 9mm 1911 :)

[Byron]

Tamara,

If you were Howard Schultz, what would you have done?

I am genuinely curious because you seem to loathe the OC crowd while being simultaneously offended by Starbucks' response. If my perception is wrong, let me know.

I get your stance on the language issue; I just don't understand what alternate solution you propose.

[Tamara]

Latest tangent in the comments section at Todd's? "CCWers are teh gayz0rz." Seriously. The lulz from this crowd just keep getting better.

No homo.

[ToddG]

If someone's carrying a gun in there today, it's against the clearly expressed wishes of the CEO.

Tam, are you doing anything this week that is against the clearly expressed wishes of the President of the United States?

The CEO can ask nicely but when he specifically says it's not a ban, it's not a ban. So it seems pretty clear that an actual ban would be another, farther step.

[Tamara]

Tamara,

If you were Howard Schultz, what would you have done?

I'm not Howard Schultz; I can't really imagine myself in his headspace, with his worldview, so the question's kinda moot.

But going as hypothetically as I can? Probably something pretty much identical. I agree with Todd that he probably doesn't even really grasp CCW as a thing, except the very occasional "zomg hidden guns!" story in the MSM. In this respect we can actually thank the fringiest OCers for drawing a lot of heat from CC, ironically.

If Schultz had called me up? I would have told him to change one or two little words: "That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer display firearms in our stores or outdoor seating areas."

As I've said elsewhere (and maybe here; this thread is too long to search):

(I)t was the polite and personal nature of the thing that drew the reaction from me that it did.

If "no guns" signs had come down from corporate and appeared on the doors, I'd have waltzed past or not, on any given day as my whim dictated because, at least here in Indiana, a "No Guns Sign" has the same legal weight as a Doonesbury comic strip taped in the window.

But he asked directly and politely, and so I'll honor his request.

[Tamara]

Tam, are you doing anything this week that is against the clearly expressed wishes of the President of the United States?

The CEO can ask nicely but when he specifically says it's not a ban, it's not a ban. So it seems pretty clear that an actual ban would be another, farther step.

I'm wondering how exposed to ProgressiveSpeak a lot of the people here are. "Respecting" "space" is a big deal in Lefty circles.

[ToddG]

I respect space. It's the final frontier.

[will_1400]

I respect space. It's the final frontier.

Well played.

[NickA]

So anyone who carries concealed only does so because "you're a cold-blooded d-bag who wants the element of surprise whilst you murder another human" :confused:
I don't want to murder anybody, but otherwise, yes, nitwit.

I'm particularly appalled by the repeated accusations that Todd cleans his guns. For shame, OC guys.

[Tamara]

I'm particularly appalled by the repeated accusations that Todd cleans his guns.

I know, right? :D

Also, "t3h gayzz0rz" has now become the main line of attack from Captain Carry, which is just absolute roflcopter material.

[RoyGBiv]

No they were not! Nyeti had it correct when he said that it wasn't a problem until they tried to "educate" the public. And plenty of us were behind the Calguns Foundation in trying to tone down the Open Carry groups well before legislation was introduced.
Once the snowball got rolling...

Ok, ok.. let me clarify again...

IMO, California OC was flying under the radar until ... it wasn't.
Today, TX OC is similarly peeking it's head out from its bunker.

The difference?

In Cali, when OC got noticed, there's a higher % of anti's yelling something about children and guns and enough votes to "do something about it".
In TX, even if we don't support the OC zealots actions, we're much less likely (as a whole) to vote for more gun restrictions.

[David Armstrong]

Why in the hell is the pro-carry side trying so hard to make something out of this?
Sheesh... a CEO who is more than likely ignorant of the nuances of firearms laws and practices sends out a non-binding open letter where he tries to straddle the fence and please everyone "we'd prefer you not carry, but if you do we aren't going to complain" and we just can't let it drop?!?
Starbucks is TRYING to remain ambivalent towards carry but we just can't have that now can we? By God we've got to FORCE them into taking a stand!
Guess what "stand" a coffee house based in Seattle that caters to upper-middle class white people and hipsters is going to take when they're forced to take it by rifle toting goobers who only show up to get their 15 minutes of YouTube fame?

Let it drop!
Having waded through a whole bunch of pages, it seems to me this is possibly the best take on the issue. A CEO has basically said "I'd ask you not to do it, but if you do it I really don't care too much" and now some are trying to push him over toward the other side?? :confused:

[MDS]

If someone's carrying a gun in there today, it's against the clearly expressed wishes of the CEO.

My wife's response to this is the best I've heard: "So what? He can write a letter asking for a million dollars, doesn't mean I'm going to give it to him."

[David Armstrong]

from ToddG:
People often like to use cops as an example of why OC is superior, but thing about some simple facts:

•uniformed police officers are forced to fight over, and are killed by, their own handguns much more frequently than officers or citizens who are carrying concealed; and,
•the vast, vast, vast majority of police officers who do carry off-duty do so concealed, not open even though they could OC if they chose to do so.

Yes on both accounts, and the latter is a good example of what some have discussed. We had some young officers who would OC off-duty. Badge next to the gun and all that so it was clear they were LEO. But it only took about a week of that stuff to get enough of the local citizenry complaining to the point that we put in place a new policy requiring concealment off duty, no OC allowed.

[Tamara]

My wife's response to this is the best I've heard: "So what? He can write a letter asking for a million dollars, doesn't mean I'm going to give it to him."

Well, except for $5.75 at a time, sure. ;)

[SecondsCount]

SC -- regarding the talisman thing, I don't think you qualify. That's part of what gets lost in these debates... there's a difference between someone who OCs on occasion (or even by preference) in a community-appropriate way and the jihadis who insist on waving an AK47 around at the mall just to prove they can.

As for the "open carry makes you a target" thing, there are certainly precedents. Just ask the folks at the Navy Yard who were shot with the Beretta Alexis took from a security guard. Another story I remember vividly happened right after the Veteran Affairs Police finally became an armed police force last decade. An officer at a security checkpoint in Puerto Rico had a gang of thugs descend on him and beat him to death for the sole purpose of stealing his gun.

People often like to use cops as an example of why OC is superior, but thing about some simple facts:


uniformed police officers are forced to fight over, and are killed by, their own handguns much more frequently than officers or citizens who are carrying concealed; and,
the vast, vast, vast majority of police officers who do carry off-duty do so concealed, not open even though they could OC if they chose to do so.


OC scares away the meek but makes you a target for the guys who are strong, smart, and/or organized enough to think they can take it away from you. CCW might not scare away the meek, but it doesn't provide a special target indicator on my hip for the most violently predatory. If I have to be more attractive to one or the other, I'd like it to be the meek guy who tries to mug me, thanks.

I never said OC was superior, just stating that it goes both ways. There have been documented instances where OC'ers have had there guns taken away by theives as well as theives that have reconsidered what they were about to do because they saw someone that was armed.

Florida's CC law came about because of people carrying guns in the open but that was because crime was high and it was illegal to carry concealed.

In Utah, people started open carrying because they felt a permit was unconstitutional. Police started coming down on people, threatening them with arrest, etc. The matter went before the state and the Attorney General told the police to back off, there is no law against OC in Utah, especially if you have a CC permit.

In Wisconsin you could not get a concealed permit so people legally open carried as that was the only way. A few years after that started, Wisconsin enacted concealed carry. Similar to Wisconsin, Utah, and several other states, there were gun owners in California that found a loophole in the law and started carrying hoping that it would help change the law but in a state full of anti-gun politicians, they only exposed the law for what it was. Did they make it worse? Maybe, but a majority of politicians in that state are always looking for a reason to trample people's rights.

[ToddG]

But it only took about a week of that stuff to get enough of the local citizenry complaining to the point that we put in place a new policy requiring concealment off duty, no OC allowed.

What? You caved in? RIGHTS! FREEDOM! You have no backbone and, according to the comments on my website, your anti-OC stance also raises significant suspicion that you are homosexual.

[Tamara]

We had some young officers who would OC off-duty. Badge next to the gun and all that so it was clear they were LEO. But it only took about a week of that stuff to get enough of the local citizenry complaining...

In Louisiana? Seriously?

I mean, I've lived in a bunch of jurisdictions, from downtown Atlanta and Indianapolis to quasi-rural Tennessee, and I've never been anyplace that people would get bedwetty at the sight of a clean-cut guy carrying a gun with a badge on the belt to go with it. Heck, that's how detectives in 99.9% of America dress from 9-to-5.

I'm not coming right out and accusing you of making stuff up to win an internet argument, but I'm coming right up to the edge of it. If we were in the same room and you'd just said that, I'd have made that funny coughing noise with syllables buried in it.

[TGS]

your anti-OC stance also raises significant suspicion that you are homosexual.

I'd "pack your heat" anyday.

lulz. Gotta give that guy credit for the most homophobic gun-pun ever.

[Dagga Boy]

I actually hate the cop with gun and badge only in plain clothes. Most are doing it for two reasons-Chicks dig it and discount food. You want to be a detective, then dress like it. Off-duty and the gang member you arrested (or their family or friends) now have confirmation that you are "that guy" they have a beef with. I get lower profile gear where you are working in a raid jacket, jeans and a duty belt for things like gang and crime suppression teams, but the others are doing it for attention. This should wear off before you are off training, but some folks don't get it.

My favorite is the exposed badge and no gun:mad:. My daughter and I were in a bagel place eating and two L.A. County Sheriff Executive's came in with no coats and just their Sheriff badges on their belts and the little placard things on their pockets stating that they were "Captains". My young daughter said "daddy we are safe because there are policemen here", I announced in a very public voice that "no we aren't sweetheart, because they do not have guns so they can't protect you, and they can't even protect themselves". They made the "executive police not happy with you face" at me that I am very used to. I think my "at least you got free coffee, captain" was not found to be as funny as I thought it was.....oh well...:cool:.

[David Armstrong]

In Louisiana? Seriously?
No. This was back in Oklahoma.


I mean, I've lived in a bunch of jurisdictions, from downtown Atlanta and Indianapolis to quasi-rural Tennessee, and I've never been anyplace that people would get bedwetty at the sight of a clean-cut guy carrying a gun with a badge on the belt to go with it. Heck, that's how detectives in 99.9% of America dress from 9-to-5.

I'm not coming right out and accusing you of making stuff up to win an internet argument, but I'm coming right up to the edge of it. If we were in the same room and you'd just said that, I'd have made that funny coughing noise with syllables buried in it.
That's OK, Tam, I feel the same about many of your statements and claims. And as often happens you tossed on some stuff that I never said. I don't see any claims about people getting bedwetty or such, there were some complaints. And most detectives don't dress in a football jersy and a pair of jeans or something similar.

[David Armstrong]

I actually hate the cop with gun and badge only in plain clothes. Most are doing it for two reasons-Chicks dig it and discount food. You want to be a detective, then dress like it. Off-duty and the gang member you arrested (or their family or friends) now have confirmation that you are "that guy" they have a beef with. I get lower profile gear where you are working in a raid jacket, jeans and a duty belt for things like gang and crime suppression teams, but the others are doing it for attention. This should wear off before you are off training, but some folks don't get it.
Exactly. Or they are just too darned lazy to cover up.

[KeeFus]

Yes on both accounts, and the latter is a good example of what some have discussed. We had some young officers who would OC off-duty. Badge next to the gun and all that so it was clear they were LEO. But it only took about a week of that stuff to get enough of the local citizenry complaining to the point that we put in place a new policy requiring concealment off duty, no OC allowed.

Wow. The only time i see off duty LEO's OCing is when they want free food. Period. Theyre usually the ones that do it so much we eventually lose the free food/coffee perks.

[David Armstrong]

What? You caved in? RIGHTS! FREEDOM! You have no backbone and, according to the comments on my website, your anti-OC stance also raises significant suspicion that you are homosexual.
It's worse...I didn't need to cave in. I had already developed the habit of carrying my gun in a brown paper sack if I couldn't tuck it away and/or wasn't dressed properly.:D

[Tamara]

I actually hate the cop with gun and badge only in plain clothes...

That is all absolutely valid, but it is a completely separate issue from the fact that generations of Americans have been conditioned by the TeeVee that "clean-cut dude in non-ratty clothes w/ gun'n'badge" equals "good guy".


Theyre usually the ones that do it so much we eventually lose the free food/coffee perks.

When I was working third shift in a c-store, the free roller dog and coffee wasn't for you, it was for the marked cruiser you drove there in and parked out front to come in and get your chow.

And yes, I watched with my own two eyes the establishments on either side and across the street get held up. I never did. :)

[Savage Hands]

I guess Colion Noire agrees with Tamara's side of the argument...


http://youtu.be/cYnT6mjSy84

[Tamara]

I guess Colion Noire agrees with Tamara's side of the argument...

I wasn't aware I even had a "side of the argument" until just now?

Anyhow, he's a fringe-y whacko. I'm waiting until a mainstream NRA-financed guy lays down an opinion before I pick a side. ;)

EDIT: Just watched the video.

When have I sided with the AR-15 toters and Starbucks Appreciation Open Carry Ralliers or said they weren't the direct cause of this? Show me. Link, or it didn't happen.

[GardoneVT]

Interestingly enough, the Secret Service PPD still carries concealed despite it being obvious their details are armed.Why? I'd say it's because a group of openly armed people changes the atmosphere .Whether it's Camp David or Starbucks on Main Street,openly displayed weapons have a way of altering the mood.Too bad some folks don't get that.

[ToddG]

Interestingly enough, the Secret Service PPD still carries concealed despite it being obvious their details are armed.

There are often PPD guys around who you'd never know are PPD until they pulled out a gun or baton and adjusted your weathervane. PPD has plenty of reasons for (usually) being concealed, discretion is just one of them.

[SouthNarc]

If I had a coffee shop I would allow open carry for pistols in a minimum Level II retention holster and a laminated certificate of training for 8 hrs of handgun retention, to be worn around the neck on a break-away ballchain. O/C personnel would also be required to sit in pairs with one always on overwatch. And they'd have to wear armor.

[TGS]

If I had a coffee shop I would allow open carry for pistols in a minimum Level II retention holster and a laminated certificate of training for 8 hrs of handgun retention, to be worn around the neck on a break-away ballchain. O/C personnel would also be required to sit in pairs with one always on overwatch. And they'd have to wear armor.

Could I just substitute a Boba Fett helmet for all that jazz?

[will_1400]

If I had a coffee shop I would allow open carry for pistols in a minimum Level II retention holster and a laminated certificate of training for 8 hrs of handgun retention, to be worn around the neck on a break-away ballchain. O/C personnel would also be required to sit in pairs with one always on overwatch. And they'd have to wear armor.

Careful: the OC crowd will question your bedroom life if you keep that up. :rolleyes:

[SouthNarc]

Careful: the OC crowd will question your bedroom life if you keep that up. :rolleyes:

The OC crowd may end up being my bedroom life if they wanna' get all huffy!

[SouthNarc]

Could I just substitute a Boba Fett helmet for all that jazz?

Free biscotti for you!

[will_1400]

The OC crowd may end up being my bedroom life if they wanna' get all huffy!

Judging from your bit about "keeping 5 of 10 guys from having their way you in the showers bit", I'm not surprised. ;)

[SouthNarc]

Judging from your bit about "keeping 5 of 10 guys from having their way you in the showers bit", I'm not surprised. ;)


That's why most of them openly carry....they're terrified of dude-rape.

[will_1400]

That's why most of them openly carry....they're terrified of dude-rape.

Sad (or scary) thing is, I'm probably not that skilled compared to you or BaiHu in terms of hand-to-hand but I'd probably be more than a match for the most of that crowd.

[BaiHu]

That's why most of them openly carry....they're terrified of dude-rape.

The Internet is a funny place. I post about a fortune 100 company CEO making a request and now it's turned into dude rape and dude rape prevention by OC.

Will a drop leg serpa even stay "tight like a tiger" on your thigh while in a shower? It would at least be level 2 SouthNarc :p

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[tremiles]

It's not easy to take the rapidly OC poster on p-t.com seriously when his rabidly OC org recommends OC only in groups rather than advocating for retention training. Besides the whole can't make a coherent argument thing, that is. Or comparing OC of slung rifles where completely legal to Rosa Parks in 1955 Montgomery Alabama.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[SouthNarc]

The Internet is a funny place. I post about a fortune 100 company CEO making a request and now it's turned into dude rape and dude rape prevention by OC.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


New Rule:

Any thread on P-F.com started by you that goes over 25 pages with participation by David Armstrong AND nyeti MUST have a dude-rape reference.

I think that's more than fair.

[BaiHu]

Huzzah!!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[jlw]

If I had a coffee shop I would allow open carry for pistols in a minimum Level II retention holster and a laminated certificate of training for 8 hrs of handgun retention, to be worn around the neck on a break-away ballchain. O/C personnel would also be required to sit in pairs with one always on overwatch. And they'd have to wear armor.


Would Serpas be banned? :cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

I note that the most tactical dudes on the planet, like former/current Delta/SEAL/SF guys, multiple LE gunfight winners like Jim Cirillo, guys/gals who "OC" every day at work because they have to due to the uniform, all carry concealed.

I detect a dose of reality in that thinking, opposed by the OC folks who think,,, well, I have no idea WTK they are thinking besides OC jihad.