Q: Self defense items/methods for co-workers not 'in the fold'?

[Red Leader]

Hey all,

In my line of work, which I do not consider 'dangerous' by most stretches of the word, but we will have some of my co-workers going into some of the neighborhoods that I currently or in the past have also worked in. Several of my co-workers are female. A couple of these neighborhoods have been in the news due to heavy proliferation of gangs and murders that have taken place in the past year. One just happened this past weekend. Because I am looked at as 'that guy' at my work who might seem to know something about all this stuff, I have been tasked with doing some research about what some of my co-workers can do to better prepare themselves.

In our last meeting, I heard mace and stun guns offered up as ideas. Some background: I work with a pretty diverse group of people. All political spectrums. We are also a pretty small group. I bring this up to this group since there are quite a few individuals on here who know a whole lot more about this than I do. My first thought is I'm not really sure how effective some of the methods that were brought up really would be. I have no statistics for people using mace or stun guns or the like. For all I know, statistics may say that these may make the situation worse.

What we have working for us: We are frequently kept very up-to-date regarding the latest information about gangs, gang behavior, identification, demographics, etc. My co-workers are also smart. They are not going to dress up in baggy, blue clothes with a sideways turned had and a bandanna hanging out of their pocket in neighborhoods full of bloods. The are also open to ideas.

What we have working against us: Little to no formal self-defense training. No real mindset of such. Depending on the person, moderate-to-no working knowledge or training with weapons of any kind. I work within a semi-to-slightly non-permissive environment. Tread lightly is the order of the day. I do have a green light from the boss, though.

I'm hesitant with the idea to just stick a knife or some mace in someone's hands and say 'good luck, hope you don't get attacked', but I also don't like the idea of them going out there with zero protection either.

Right now I'm looking for some recommendations for individuals who may be entering some compromising and dangerous areas (due to work) who probably will not have a huge investment into self defense. I.E., they will not be hitting the range 2x a week and the dojo.

My first inclination is a basic self-defense class since situational awareness and avoidance is the order of the day. However, lets say (hypothetically) that confrontations may be a realistic possibility (in reality, they always are). Is there something that stands out as a 'best option' that does reasonably well in the hands of the untrained that would still be legal? I know, grasping at straws.

Any suggestions welcome.

Thanks!

[Jay Cunningham]

I do have a green light from the boss, though.

I'm not sure I understand your situation 100% but holy crap you might want to talk with a lawyer first. What is your potential liability here?

[Red Leader]

I'm not sure I understand your situation 100% but holy crap you might want to talk with a lawyer first. What is your potential liability here?

Heh, I'll clarify. Boss is okay with CCW and everyone knows it. That's all that statement meant. Our office environment is pretty friendly (boss set the tone on that) but sometimes the places we have to go for work are a little more non-permissive. There is not a lot of discomfort around that discussion, but I try to remain discreet nonetheless (i.e. I've never say anything one way or another). However, I know that other individuals are probably not comfortable with the idea of going through CCW classes and such and carrying a CCW. Thus, looking for other options. (EDIT - just re-read your concern. No worries, no laws being broken). Summary of conversation:

Boss: This new collaboration is taking us to some rougher neighborhoods.

Staff: Hmmm.

Boss: Lots and gangs and a kid was just killed out there.

Staff: Hmmmmm. True.

Boss: I don't want people just going into these areas with zero protection. I want everyone to be safe.

Staff: Sounds good. Maybe we can carry mace or something?

Boss: You (talking to me), why don't you check out what some options are and let me know?

Me: Okay.

At this point it is just information gathering. I'm still thinking a self defense primer class is a good way to get everyone's heads on straight.

[ToddG]

If Craig Douglas is teaching in your area anytime soon, see if you can convince him to stay in town an extra day to do a dedicated MUC program for your group.

[Byron]

What is the extent of the corporate support here? Moral? Financial? Logistical?

I.E. does your boss just want you to come up with a hardware solution, educate people about it, and then let them decide whether or not to purchase said tool?
Does your boss actually plan on buying items for people, assuming they fall under a certain dollar amount?
Or would your company/boss put up money to host an instructor?

I think the very best thing you could do for your coworkers would be to have Craig Douglas (SouthNarc) give a talk on Managing Unknown Contacts (MUC). Having taken ECQC multiple times, I still believe that MUC is the most important chunk of the material, has the largest impact on daily life, and for most people will be the biggest factor in decreasing their risk of victimization.

It's very nonthreatening material that should resonate with just about anyone (i.e. no mindset prerequisites).

Edit: Ha - looks like Todd beat me

[Al T.]

I'm certainly no SME, but the one constant I see folks allowed to tote are walking sticks. Are your co-workers actually walking around or driving or what?

[NickA]

Following on with the Craig Douglas recommendations - if you can't actually get him you may check out some of his DVD's. I haven't had a chance to watch my ECQC DVD but I'm sure it at least hits the high points of MUC and criminal assault paradigm.
Another thought - Craig might be able to hook you up with a trainer or ECQC grad in your area that could come give a presentation.

[Red Leader]

I think the initial reaction was a hardware-based approach, which to me seems pretty typical, whereas I'm think it probably should start out with a more software-oriented solution. I do think the org is willing to put up some money for something, be it a class or some hardware. Right now I'm having a hard time seeing how a small keychain pepper spray bottle is going to stop a crazy drunk/high guy if he is really motivated, let alone dig around on your keychain to find it, if your keys are even accessible.

I'll check into the SouthNarc route.

[NEPAKevin]

From time to time, people at work or acquaintances have made similar requests. While I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, I do try to steer them toward educational resources, with an emphasis on first learning about safety, and suggest others who are capable and qualified to assist them as I do not consider myself anything but an enthusiast. I used to suggest Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense (http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Personal-Defense-Jeff-Cooper/dp/1581604955) as a nice, short primer but do not recall anyone actually taking much less reading the proffered essay and it seems like most have just wanted a trip to the gun range for a "shootin' lesson"


http://youtu.be/BMboGPneLOo

[GardoneVT]

I've been in the OPs shoes before,and my experience was less then enthralling.
Ultimately the individual alone has to take ownership of their own personal security,and it's a major mental shift.A heartbreaking LEO training video I watched lays it out succinctly.A dashcam video records a highway patrolman encountering a driver who instantly leaves his car with a 30-30,shooting.The cop falls back and draws his gun,but keeps yelling "PUT DOWN THE RIFLE" as lead flies by him.Time bleeds by as the crazed gunman keeps shooting all the while the lawman yells "PUT DOWN THE RIFLE" like a broken record.He's killed on camera ,20 seconds after it all starts.

Without the mindset to take a life if needed,a person remains a victim no matter what gear they have.


Years ago at Lackland AFB I had my own mental freeze as I encountered the fact of deadly force in a training exercise.I locked up like a 10 year old Gateway computer.Being a trainee from Chicago,deadly force was a totally foreign concept and it showed when I froze on the practice range.Thankfully it was practice-and I'm forever grateful it happened there and not on the street when real life criminals did pick me out.While I was at a government training range,I alone had to digest and process the reality of taking a life for righteous cause.

There's no external force or advice which can impart that point.The individual has to face it on their own terms

[David Armstrong]

I've had to do this, or something similar, a few times over the years. My basic default has become a short class (about 3-4 hours) on how to get out of holds/grabs and some basic instruction on how to use pepper spray. As part of that some deep discussions on situational awareness and recognizing that little lizard brain in the back of your head that is shouting "RUN!" is worth listening to. It's not perfect but just a few basic moves can go a long way. I've had a number of students tell me that it has made a difference.

[Byron]

Without the mindset to take a life if needed,a person remains a victim no matter what gear they have.
...
There's no external force or advice which can impart that point.The individual has to face it on their own terms
I think that's a very black-and-white view.

There are plenty of people who see trouble coming, get themselves out of the way, and never break a sweat.
There are plenty of people who prevented their own victimization through nothing more than a stern tone of voice.
There are plenty of people who end a crime in progress, simply by offering a bit of physical resistance.
The list goes on and on.

The vast majority of self-defense (by which I include things like avoidance and awareness, as well as actual confrontation) is non-lethal.

There are plenty of ways that people can make themselves safer, even if they aren't comfortable with the concept of taking human life. You seem to be focusing on the gravest of extremes, and declaring that anyone incapable of stomaching such an extreme is therefore doomed to fail any circumstance, even if it is less serious.

Saying that anyone who lacks the will to kill is doomed to forever be a victim is like saying, "Sorry, unless you're willing to drive 120 mph in the rain, you can't be taught how to drive in poor conditions."

[GardoneVT]

I think that's a very black-and-white view.

There are plenty of people who see trouble coming, get themselves out of the way, and never break a sweat.
There are plenty of people who prevented their own victimization through nothing more than a stern tone of voice.
There are plenty of people who end a crime in progress, simply by offering a bit of physical resistance.
The list goes on and on.

The vast majority of self-defense (by which I include things like avoidance and awareness, as well as actual confrontation) is non-lethal.

There are plenty of ways that people can make themselves safer, even if they aren't comfortable with the concept of taking human life. You seem to be focusing on the gravest of extremes, and declaring that anyone incapable of stomaching such an extreme is therefore doomed to fail any circumstance, even if it is less serious.

Saying that anyone who lacks the will to kill is doomed to forever be a victim is like saying, "Sorry, unless you're willing to drive 120 mph in the rain, you can't be taught how to drive in poor conditions."

The point here is that mindset is the weapon,not the tools.Knowing Karate and carrying a .44 revolver doesn't make someone dangerous.The dangerous person is the one who's motivated to kill if necessary to ensure they go home to their family.That doesn't mean they seek out danger or enjoy death.It means they're mentally prepared for whatever defensive situation may arise.

You're correct that most defensive incidents won't involve shedding blood.That being said,the reason this website and so many training resources exist is because inevitably a few WILL be.The person mentally prepared to survive will fare better then the trained person who hasn't faced the mental possibility.

It's not a black and white issue.It's about mindset.

[Dropkick]

The point here is that mindset is the weapon,not the tools.Knowing Karate and carrying a .44 revolver doesn't make someone dangerous.The dangerous person is the one who's motivated to kill if necessary to ensure they go home to their family.That doesn't mean they seek out danger or enjoy death.It means they're mentally prepared for whatever defensive situation may arise.

You're correct that most defensive incidents won't involve shedding blood.That being said,the reason this website and so many training resources exist is because inevitably a few WILL be.The person mentally prepared to survive will fare better then the trained person who hasn't faced the mental possibility.

It's not a black and white issue.It's about mindset.

So are you saying that the only survive a self defense encounter is to have a "kill if necessary" mindset?

...And back on topic, I would also recommend Southnarc's MUC material. Failing that, if you be boxed into a hardware solution, Pepper Gel is probably a decent choice. Simple to use, multiple shots, reduced chance of self contamination. While it may not stop a determined attacker, a gun might not either. It's also pretty low on the liability scale too, in case it was ever used inappropriately.

[GardoneVT]

So are you saying that the only survive a self defense encounter is to have a "kill if necessary" mindset?

...And back on topic, I would also recommend Southnarc's MUC material. Failing that, if you be boxed into a hardware solution, Pepper Gel is probably a decent choice. Simple to use, multiple shots, reduced chance of self contamination. While it may not stop a determined attacker, a gun might not either. It's also pretty low on the liability scale too, in case it was ever used inappropriately.

Only is an artificial limitation.

My point is that hardware is useless without the will to use it.
We can only show someone the door to defending themselves -they have to be the ones to walk though it.If somones taking defensive training without the comittment to employ it ,they're just going though the motions for naught.That kind of mental preparation cannot be forced on someone from outside.

I've tried.My friend bought a shotgun with the intent to get proficient with it.Nothing came of it despite my sessions in basic drills and handling.Today it sits in their closet gathering dust.

[41magfan]

Personally, I'd initially pursue some indoctrination/training with the "one mind - any weapon" mantra and just let things shake out like they're going to do anyway. If the "awareness" thing takes root with some of them, based on their perceptions and dispositions they will pursue all manner of things from guns and knives to empty hand skills. Just be ready to steer them in the right direction once they've taken the first step.

I used to do some "Women Only" stuff years ago and I'm still surprised when I meet some of them 20+ years later and they're still able to recount the training verbatim. Some carry guns - some don't, but many of them are in a much better position to avoid being a victim and that's always a good thing.

[Red Leader]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I know there is no perfect solution, especially considering that there will probably not be a deep investment on the part of those that I am representing. However, I'd like to think that I am acting in good faith on their behalf to present them with some good options and that, as said by others, they can decide for themselves what to take or leave. Heck, it might be a great excuse for me to get in on a good class:D

[TCinVA]

The point here is that mindset is the weapon,not the tools.

...but when there's a dude encroaching on your fiancee it's a lot more helpful if you can pull out, say, a knife than trying to pull out "mindset".

Yeah, my friend would have been better off to have adopted the same approach to self defense that I had, but he didn't. He did pick up that it was maybe a good idea to have some implement of mayhem handy should it come down to it and was better off in the confrontation than he would have been with empty hands.

I don't buy the idea that somebody who doesn't possess whatever mindset I believe is necessary is helpless even if they have a gun. Statistics tell us that if an untrained person figures out they need a weapon and is actually able to produce one that they'll be better off than if they couldn't, and that most of the time they succeed in defending themselves even if that means killing the attacker.

Is this ideal? Absolutely not...but it's the reality of the world we live in. I know lots of people for whom the gun occupies the same role as a fire extinguisher.

Ideal? No. Are they likely to end up in major trouble as a result of viewing it that way? Not really.

[GardoneVT]

...but when there's a dude encroaching on your fiancee it's a lot more helpful if you can pull out, say, a knife than trying to pull out "mindset".

Yeah, my friend would have been better off to have adopted the same approach to self defense that I had, but he didn't. He did pick up that it was maybe a good idea to have some implement of mayhem handy should it come down to it and was better off in the confrontation than he would have been with empty hands.

I don't buy the idea that somebody who doesn't possess whatever mindset I believe is necessary is helpless even if they have a gun. Statistics tell us that if an untrained person figures out they need a weapon and is actually able to produce one that they'll be better off than if they couldn't, and that most of the time they succeed in defending themselves even if that means killing the attacker.

Is this ideal? Absolutely not...but it's the reality of the world we live in. I know lots of people for whom the gun occupies the same role as a fire extinguisher.

Ideal? No. Are they likely to end up in major trouble as a result of viewing it that way? Not really.

Except without the mental preparedness,the knife will stay in the pocket at the critical moment.
It's beyond dispute that untrained people defend themselves all the time,and in some cases surprisingly well.It doesn't mean that luck should be Plan A.

Furthermore,the mental will to survive isn't dependent on hardware.There's plenty of bad guys who've been killed with their own weapons by unarmed victims.Ultimately,my core point is that we can teach skills,but mindset is the true weapon-and we can't give that to a stranger as we would a knife or an external tool.

[Wendell]

http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/3526935-74/women-craig-program#axzz2eamWeksV

[TCinVA]

Except without the mental preparedness,the knife will stay in the pocket at the critical moment.

That's not even remotely true. I can point to example after example where untrained people managed to figure out that a weapon was called for at the "critical moment" and got it involved well enough to prevent death or serious injury. In most cases would they have been better off with training, perhaps being able to see the critical moment approaching from farther out and maybe completely avoiding the need to use the weapon in any capacity? Sure.

What you aren't grasping here is that the decision to arm oneself is an indicator of mindset. The decision to acquire a weapon and keep it handy acknowledges the possibility of a violent assault and the acknowledgement that a violent response is likely the only effective solution. This is a big deal.



It's beyond dispute that untrained people defend themselves all the time,and in some cases surprisingly well.It doesn't mean that luck should be Plan A.


People who are "untrained" by my standards are not just "lucky" if they succeed in defending themselves.

Sure, some of them have been extremely lucky. I can also point to examples of people who may not have anything approaching the skill I would consider minimally acceptable with a weapon nevertheless made the decision that they needed one and had enough going on upstairs to use it effectively even in bad circumstances.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/988015_My_CCW_Shooting_AAR__Now_with_More_Graphic_ Pics_on_pg_29_and_30.html

TL/DR version:

Average guy with little training is assaulted by a released con who has conspired with a woman who worked at his prison to target Mr. Average Guy. Average guy had enough mindset to actually carry his gun with him and when "the critical moment" hit he managed to get a round on the bad guy despite having been shot multiple times and working through a malfunction on his own weapon.

Would training have been of benefit to him? Absolutely. It might have prevented it reaching the point where he suffered gunshot wounds. Was he lucky that the wounds weren't more severe? Absolutely...but show me someone who survives a gunfight that isn't lucky. As much as we'd like to drill the question of violence down to a nice formula where we can control the inputs and return the answer we want, luck will always play a role.

Was his mindset lacking? Given that even though he wasn't highly trained he brought a gun, figured out he was darn sure going to need it, fought from his back, powered through a malfunction with his weapon even with hands wounded in the fight, and in all of that still managed to hit his attacker as the guy tried to beat feet, I'd say he had the mind game pretty well sorted.

Someone looking into a means of self defense is at least acknowledging the possibility of needing to fight back. Of deliberately inflicting harm on another human being in an effort to stop death or injury to themselves or someone they care about. Are they all the way there yet? Of course not. But they'll never get any deeper in the pool if you tell them to get the hell out of the water unless they're willing to touch the bottom of the deep end. Sometimes this is a process and people need time and space to work their way through it. The things they may need to figure out may be obvious to you, but they aren't obvious to them yet.

No, you can't give somebody mindset. You can, however, give some guidance on tapping into it and with some patience nudge them in the right direction on occasion. Is everybody worth the patience required for that? No. But some are...and you'll never reach them if you drop the mic and walk away.

[Byron]

Gardone,

You seem to be addressing a number of points that were never questioned. I'm not sure if you're trying to knock down straw men or you're simply misunderstanding where people are finding disagreement with your statements. For example, you say that having a mindset amenable to killing "doesn't mean they seek out danger or enjoy death." I don't see anyone making the case that they do. I don't see anyone making a case against mindset. Rather, I see people trying to discuss the best possible options for a less-than-ideal situation. Instead of similarly offering help, you seem to just want to tell us why this can't work.


Without the mindset to take a life if needed,a person remains a victim no matter what gear they have.

There's no external force or advice which can impart that point.The individual has to face it on their own terms

The point here is that mindset is the weapon,not the tools.

It's not a black and white issue.It's about mindset.

We can only show someone the door to defending themselves -they have to be the ones to walk though it.If somones taking defensive training without the comittment to employ it ,they're just going though the motions for naught.That kind of mental preparation cannot be forced on someone from outside.

Ultimately,my core point is that we can teach skills,but mindset is the true weapon-and we can't give that to a stranger as we would a knife or an external tool.

You're being extremely defeatist about this whole issue. You're spending a lot of time telling us that these people who work with Red Leader are lost causes unless they see the light.

Do you have any constructive advice to offer? Perhaps something more than just, "Your coworkers are screwed. Unless they are willing to kill, they're victims and any education would be a waste of time"?

You say that mindset matters most, but you also say that mindset can't be taught.

So let's talk about what we can teach. Giving these people any help at all is a step in the right direction. No one is looking to turn them into warriors like you; we just want to increase their chances of avoidance and survival.

I also think you're taking a very one-dimensional view of mindset. Mindset isn't just, "I'm ready to kill." Mindset needs to include knowing when to kill, don't you think? Mindset needs to include recognition of threats. Mindset needs to include daily best practices that decrease our chances of victimization.

The will to kill cannot be taught, but these other aspects of mindset are certainly teachable.

[Byron]

...they'll never get any deeper in the pool if you tell them to get the hell out of the water unless they're willing to touch the bottom of the deep end...
Well said, and this is the biggest issue I have with Gardone's proclamations in this thread.

[GardoneVT]

Well said, and this is the biggest issue I have with Gardone's proclamations in this thread.

Everyone starts somewhere.I would go far enough to say that it's our duty as competent gun owners to dissemenate knowledge about self defense.My only point is that we cannot force someone to take ownership of their own security.I make that point because it can be intensely dissapointing to show someone "The Way" so to speak,only for it to be a one-ear-and-out-the other situation.

The defeatest message was not my goal.I'd wager none of us would be here if someone ,somewhere,didn't take us aside and give us starter pointers.

[Red Leader]

I appreciate the spirited discussion that my request has brought up. It means a lot, thank you to all for your investment in this discussion.

That being said, if we are all 8-10s on the 'mindset' and 'ready to engage hostile enemies' and 'I carry a G26 Gen 4 with Trij HDs in a CCC Shaggy with 2 extra mags on the hip loaded with 147gr Federal HSTs' on this forum, think of my co-workers as about a 2. They would much, much rather run away from anything that even remotely looks like a threat. As would I, actually. I think the reality is that they are looking for some help, acknowledging that they are going into a more un-friendly environment, but doing so with very little skills, training (or the ability/desire to have a high degree of maintenance, I'm guessing), or at the current moment, tools, that would help them avoid or survive a negative encounter. They are not on the meat and potatoes of self-defense, they are on applesauce. That being said, the best solution is going to be something that will be easily and readily accessed by someone who is not really that used to having to access it, whether it be information or hardware. Something simple, easy, effective, and an asset in a highly stressful or scare situation. Probably not a 1911:D

The basic MUC course or Self Defense 101 type of thing is enticing. However, I'm also really open to physical instruments of self-defense that have a reliable track record of being used by your untrained average Joe, if such an elusive implement even exists.

Again, thanks for the responses guys!

[GardoneVT]

I appreciate the spirited discussion that my request has brought up. It means a lot, thank you to all for your investment in this discussion.

That being said, if we are all 8-10s on the 'mindset' and 'ready to engage hostile enemies' and 'I carry a G26 Gen 4 with Trij HDs in a CCC Shaggy with 2 extra mags on the hip loaded with 147gr Federal HSTs' on this forum, think of my co-workers as about a 2. They would much, much rather run away from anything that even remotely looks like a threat. As would I, actually. I think the reality is that they are looking for some help, acknowledging that they are going into a more un-friendly environment, but doing so with very little skills, training (or the ability/desire to have a high degree of maintenance, I'm guessing), or at the current moment, tools, that would help them avoid or survive a negative encounter. They are not on the meat and potatoes of self-defense, they are on applesauce. That being said, the best solution is going to be something that will be easily and readily accessed by someone who is not really that used to having to access it, whether it be information or hardware. Something simple, easy, effective, and an asset in a highly stressful or scare situation. Probably not a 1911:D

The basic MUC course or Self Defense 101 type of thing is enticing. However, I'm also really open to physical instruments of self-defense that have a reliable track record of being used by your untrained average Joe, if such an elusive implement even exists.

Again, thanks for the responses guys!

I'm not sure how you'd parse the following to your co workers,but I find that having active situational awareness goes a lot further then it gets credit for.There's a gazillion videos on YouTube about drawing from concealment.There are almost none which tell you how to read the body language of strangers.


Being able to spot the attacker before they make you can go a long way to dodging an ugly incident.Having an awareness of what's around can help your co workers out a lot better then just equipment alone.Hopefully that doesn't trigger another debate lol.

[NEPAKevin]

I'm not sure how you'd parse the following to your co workers,but I find that having active situational awareness goes a lot further then it gets credit for.There's a gazillion videos on YouTube about drawing from concealment.There are almost none which tell you how to read the body language of strangers.

Being able to spot the attacker before they make you can go a long way to dodging an ugly incident.Having an awareness of what's around can help your co workers out a lot better then just equipment alone.Hopefully that doesn't trigger another debate lol.


http://youtu.be/u9KmQassSKI

When I first took a self defense class, the instructor played Jeff Cooper's lecture on the color codes, which even twenty years ago seemed a little dated and eruditely. Recently, I saw this one by Colin Noir that present the same concepts with more of a vernacular feel.

[Dropkick]

I make that point because it can be intensely dissapointing to show someone "The Way" so to speak,only for it to be a one-ear-and-out-the other situation.

If you went about it the same way you have here, I'm not surprised people didn't listen.

[GardoneVT]

If you went about it the same way you have here, I'm not surprised people didn't listen.

And your point is ?

[Jay Cunningham]

Borderline personal; don't be jerks.

[Drang]

My first inclination is a basic self-defense class since situational awareness and avoidance is the order of the day. However, lets say (hypothetically) that confrontations may be a realistic possibility (in reality, they always are). Is there something that stands out as a 'best option' that does reasonably well in the hands of the untrained that would still be legal? I know, grasping at straws.

Might be a good starting point: Women's Programs|Refuse To Be A Victim® (http://rtbav.nra.org/)

[Totem Polar]

Right off the bat: my opinion is worth what you paid for it. Now, that said, as a guy who travels largely through liberal arts environments, I often find myself pegged as "that guy" as well. IMHO, the take away posts occurred first on P1 with the lawyer comment. As I read it, that ain't your problem. It might be your boss's issue though. #2: a seminar like Douglas's MUC would be worth pursuing big time, and I'll flap my lips and tell you why (again, IMHO): first off, as point man, you get to press for the training, and you'll get one hell of a freebie out of the deal (altruism can be overrated sometimes). Moreover, the folks who take in the course material with you will likely fall into two categories: those that go because they have to, or for curiosity/entertainment, and those that just may get turned on by the exposure and dig deeper. Neither one is on you, but can you imagine the impact you might have on the latter? May as well throw it against the wall and see if it sticks (41magfan, in all his model 58 glory, alluded to this, as well).

Lastly, post 21, by TCinVA is the sort of post that made me log into this place. The thumbs are way up on that one.

So far as insta-tools for the common man, i got nothing. It's not the tool, it's the resolute mechanic standing behind the tool (to grossly paraphrase damn near everyone). Some mix of Douglas and DeBecker > pepper spray, IMHO.

Good luck with all this. I know what it's like to try and cram a lifetime of study into short-term demand; all you can do is shine a flashlight on the path.