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View Full Version : Mission Drives the Gear Train - Home Defense Carbine



Jay Cunningham
02-25-2011, 07:42 PM
The handgun is convenient and easy to conceal.

The carbine is more effective but heightens profile.

A carbine is impractical for most circumstances, but for home defense it is the preferred choice if available. It can be practical for some civilians to keep a carbine in their personal vehicle but this may not be viable in many cases.


What might an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen look like?


The likely engagement envelope for this weapon would be inside a residential structure, in low light conditions, to be used against close range threats – possibly multiple but no more than a handful.

The armed citizen will most likely have been awakened out of a sleep (groggy) and will be wearing minimal clothing, no gloves, no earpro, no eyepro, and no support gear.

The weapon should be set up to “grab and go”, i.e. an extra magazine mounted to the gun, a light mounted to gun, the optical sight (if used) turned on, BUIS deployed. This weapon should be for the infamous “bump in the night”, ready for immediate deployment.

Extreme precision is not required; reliability is a more important attribute.

Magnified optics are not desirable due to the nature of the ranges involved.

The weapon should have compact overall dimensions to aid in maneuvering inside the home.

The lightest possible weight (KISS/superlight, etc.) is not necessarily a requirement, though weight savings is always desirable if performance is relatively unaffected.

A sling may not be absolutely necessary in a purely reactive situation or in a static defense, but it is a wise accessory when the aforementioned scenarios move beyond the initial encounter. A QD sling is a good option rolled up beside carbine, as is keeping the sling stowed on the carbine.

A suppressor is a good option if overall compactness and balance is not sacrificed.

Ammunition selection should be proven effective against humans yet reduce the probability of interior/exterior wall penetration.

The weapon is likely to be left in Condition Three (cocked on safe, empty chamber, magazine inserted).

Using the above criteria as a guide, an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen may look something like this:


barrel length 10″ to 12.5″

mil-spec “NATO” chamber and M4 feed ramps

1/8 or 1/7 twist rate

fixed compact or adjustable length stock

20 round magazines

75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, or 77 gr SMK OTM ammunition

dedicated weapon light (examples: SF X300, M300A Scout, Insight WX150 LED, Streamlight TLR)

compact, lightweight suppressor (examples: SF Mini, Gemtech TREK, AAC RANGER 2)

lightweight rail, preferably partially enclosing suppressor and/or mounting a handstop to protect from burns

Boonie Packer Redi-Mag (or BFG Redi-Mod)

fixed front sight and fixed or deployed folding rear sight

optical sight (examples: Aimpoint Micro T-1, EOTech XPS) or visible laser (example: Insight AN/PEQ-5 CVL)

quick deploying two point sling (VCAS w/QD mounts, VTAC-PS Attachment Sling)

Magazines are a failure point for semi-automatic firearms, and historically they have certainly been a failure point for AR-15s. In my scenario I am using 20 round magazines, so probably we are talking about 36 total rounds on the weapon. IMO it's a lot more realistic that the typical home owner may have to conduct remedial action or a reload than it is to suggest that they'd be armed with a secondary weapon to transition to.

I personally recommend the Aimpoint Micro, but I didn't want to play favorites in what I wrote above. There are very compelling reasons to use a 30mm Aimpoint as well.

If bullets start flying inside your own house, odds are high that you will experience the physiological phenomenon of audio exclusion - however short barrel 5.56mm guns are still loud and blasty. A bad guy is probably going to armed with a handgun and will be (hopefully) at least a couple of yards away, so I don't think hearing loss from an assailant's firearm would be a factor. Anyway, you still have the ears of your own family to try and protect. As I stated above, a suppressor is a good option if overall compactness and balance is not sacrificed.

The final layout of the weapon is not nearly as important as the process which determines it.

When one clearly defines one’s mission (whatever that may be), subsequent gear and training questions usually fall into place.

People need to make realistic, informed determinations of their needs and suit their gear (to include weapons) and their training accordingly.

The intent of my post is not to advocate for the carbine for home defense. It is instead an example of a methodology if you've made the determination that a carbine is the right tool. It is made in a vacuum, with out consideration of local laws or attitudes of juries. It is, as stated, what an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen might look like.

:cool:


~ Jay C

edited to add: Implied in the above is the necessary training and practice in order to employ the carbine effectively in an indoor environment. No one suggests not "honing the real weapon in the system".

Regarding those who may suggest a fixation on the gun and "stuff" that you bolt to it: once again mission should drive the gear train. If you had a mission of fighting inside a structure and you were presented with two weapons:

M16A2
Mk18

Which would you choose?

You don't have to answer that. Point being, people need to make a realistic, informed determination of their needs and suit their gear (to include weapons) and their training accordingly.


The above is not "The Law as Told By Jay"; it is simply an expression of some opinions that I've formed through my training and experience with several very good instructors. Please feel free to discuss and disagree!

vmi-mo
02-25-2011, 07:58 PM
For the home D setup I view weight as a non-issue. You are not going to hump, run or carry it for extended periods. As long as you are not swining around a 15lb stick you should be fine.

Why do you advocate 20rders? You said you carry 2, 20rders downloaded to 36rds. Why not just carry 1, 30rder with 30rds in it as it is meant? Nearly the same ammo capacity. If you desire 2 mags for malfunction purposes I can see that.

PJ

Jay Cunningham
02-25-2011, 08:06 PM
I agree that weight is generally a non-issue in a defensive role. However cutting weight without significantly increasing cost or reducing capability is always welcome, IMO.

I am not advocating 20 rounders for everyone. I explained a reason for why they might be a good choice. A single 30 round magazine is a good choice as long as you can reason out the "why". For me, I like the 20s for weight savings and reducing the overall profile of the gun. Due to the nature of the the postulated threat I figure the total ammo trade-off is acceptable. I believe I did mention above having two mags for malfunction purposes, and also because I believe a reload is more realistic than an individual being armed with a secondary. So if I'm going to carry two mags on the gun (I am) I think 60 total rounds is a bit of overkill, so I opt for two 20 rounders.

However, the individual needs to make a realistic assessment of their own situation.

vmi-mo
02-25-2011, 08:31 PM
I agree that weight is generally a non-issue in a defensive role. However cutting weight without significantly increasing cost or reducing capability is always welcome, IMO..

Absolutley. However IMHO I feel some pursue super light builds just to make them light and loose sight of function.


I am not advocating 20 rounders for everyone. I explained a reason for why they might be a good choice. A single 30 round magazine is a good choice as long as you can reason out the "why". For me, I like the 20s for weight savings and reducing the overall profile of the gun. Due to the nature of the the postulated threat I figure the total ammo trade-off is acceptable. I believe I did mention above having two mags for malfunction purposes, and also because I believe a reload is more realistic than an individual being armed with a secondary. So if I'm going to carry two mags on the gun (I am) I think 60 total rounds is a bit of overkill, so I opt for two 20 rounders.

However, the individual needs to make a realistic assessment of their own situation.

Myself and some others have found problems with 20rders and was wondering if you have encountered these problems as well?

For me a single, PROVEN, magazine of 30rds in the gun is what I would ever call on if needed. I can understand your desire to slim the profile of the gun but IMHO a 20rder is not going to increase my profile any more than a 30rder. I have worked 20 and 30rd mags in a variety of tight places and have never had either be a snag hazard.

Just my experience.


PJ

Jay Cunningham
02-25-2011, 08:39 PM
Absolutley. However IMHO I feel some pursue super light builds just to make them light and loose sight of function.
Yep. Some do, and unfortunately they weren't really considering their needs - they were trying out some fad or copying someone else for no apparent reason.


Myself and some others have found problems with 20rders and was wondering if you have encountered these problems as well?
I use only NHMTG 20 round magazines and have found them to be reliable. Then again, I am not in the operational environment that you and some others may find yourselves in, either.


For me a single, PROVEN, magazine of 30rds in the gun is what I would ever call on if needed. I can understand your desire to slim the profile of the gun but IMHO a 20rder is not going to increase my profile any more than a 30rder. I have worked 20 and 30rd mags in a variety of tight places and have never had either be a snag hazard.
And that is a perfectly viable option which you've thought out and which jives with your personal experience. As I said I *will* be carrying two magazines on the gun, and think two 30 rounders is a bit much so I'll personally go with the 20s - in this role.

Thanks for bringing your experience into this discussion, I appreciate it.

vmi-mo
02-25-2011, 09:06 PM
Yep. Some do, and unfortunately they weren't really considering their needs - they were trying out some fad or copying someone else for no apparent reason.


I use only NHMTG 20 round magazines and have found them to be reliable. Then again, I am not in the operational environment that you and some others may find yourselves in, either.


And that is a perfectly viable option which you've thought out and which jives with your personal experience. As I said I *will* be carrying two magazines on the gun, and think two 30 rounders is a bit much so I'll personally go with the 20s - in this role.

Thanks for bringing your experience into this discussion, I appreciate it.

My experience has been with PMAG 20rders. Never in an operational environment either.

I agree with you. As long as you see the need/role for what you are using, then rock on. My experience is different from yours and that shapes our outlook.


PJ

Jay Cunningham
02-25-2011, 09:27 PM
My experience has been with PMAG 20rders. Never in an operational environment either.

I agree that the 20 round PMAGs have reliability issues and I would not recommend them.

Pat.c
02-26-2011, 03:11 AM
If a SF mini can, isn't an option (can't afford, or ban in commie states like mine!), people should really consider keeping a pair of electronic ear pro on their night stand. Shooting a rifle in enclosed spaces would make for some bad times on your hearing! Electronic ear pro would safe guard your hearing, and may assist in situational awareness as they enhance ambient noises.

vmi-mo
02-26-2011, 07:13 AM
If a SF mini can, isn't an option (can't afford, or ban in commie states like mine!), people should really consider keeping a pair of electronic ear pro on their night stand. Shooting a rifle in enclosed spaces would make for some bad times on your hearing! Electronic ear pro would safe guard your hearing, and may assist in situational awareness as they enhance ambient noises.

Be careful with that. Some electronic earmuffs are terrible at giving you direction with sound when indoors.



PJ

LittleLebowski
02-26-2011, 08:18 AM
How would parents have a defensive carbine ready to go quickly whilst ensuring it is secured from small hands?

vmi-mo
02-26-2011, 09:29 AM
How would parents have a defensive carbine ready to go quickly whilst ensuring it is secured from small hands?

This is an incredibley uneducated opinion given my lack of rug rats, but maybe keep it high off the ground???? Unless your kid is a climber.


PJ

LittleLebowski
02-26-2011, 09:40 AM
She isn't. Yet. Right now, I'm good with the Belgian Malinois and a Glock with light. Definitely food for thought here.

derekb
02-26-2011, 12:22 PM
How would parents have a defensive carbine ready to go quickly whilst ensuring it is secured from small hands?

Could this be a matter of the rifle being (more) secured during the day, only coming out to its more accessible location once the house beds down?

MechEng
02-26-2011, 12:22 PM
This is an incredibley uneducated opinion given my lack of rug rats, but maybe keep it high off the ground???? Unless your kid is a climber.


PJ

Currently it's just my wife and I but we do have friends and family that occasionally visit with little ones. I use two vinyl coated bicycle hooks, installed inside our bedroom closet above the door, to hang a loaded shotgun or carbine.

None of our visiting children are climbers yet. When they do reach that point, or my wife and I have kids, I'll accept the reality that I now need to lock up my carbine. What ever method I choose to secure it, I'll just have to rehearse deploying it.

One method I've though about is to arm yourself quickly with your loaded handgun first, then retrieve you carbine. Use one of those quick access lock boxes and practice opening it in the dark.

David Armstrong
02-26-2011, 06:47 PM
I prefer chamber empty and safety off instead of chamber empty and safety on for storage, but other than that looks like a good list. Interesting to see many returning to the 20 round mag for HD, as I've preferred the 20 to the 30-round all along with the AR15/M16 family. Nowadays I use an M1 carbine as the house gun and use 15 round mags in it.

vmi-mo
02-26-2011, 07:10 PM
I prefer chamber empty and safety off instead of chamber empty and safety on for storage, but other than that looks like a good list. Interesting to see many returning to the 20 round mag for HD, as I've preferred the 20 to the 30-round all along with the AR15/M16 family. Nowadays I use an M1 carbine as the house gun and use 15 round mags in it.

What is your reasoning for safety off/chamber empty vs. safety on?

Also, why the M1 carbine?



PJ

Jay Cunningham
02-26-2011, 07:22 PM
I prefer chamber empty and safety off instead of chamber empty and safety on for storage, but other than that looks like a good list. Interesting to see many returning to the 20 round mag for HD, as I've preferred the 20 to the 30-round all along with the AR15/M16 family. Nowadays I use an M1 carbine as the house gun and use 15 round mags in it.

I believe this is oftentimes referred to as "cruiser ready", correct?

Jay Cunningham
02-26-2011, 07:24 PM
How would parents have a defensive carbine ready to go quickly whilst ensuring it is secured from small hands?

One of the reasons I mentioned Condition 3. Of course, this is no guarantee, but it's better than a round in the chamber. Another option would be to have a single mag mounted in the Redi-Mag (no mag in the magwell) and the need to physically move it into the gun. There's a lot of thought that needs to go into keeping one of these things around a little one.

Jay Cunningham
02-26-2011, 07:33 PM
Currently it's just my wife and I but we do have friends and family that occasionally visit with little ones. I use two vinyl coated bicycle hooks, installed inside our bedroom closet above the door, to hang a loaded shotgun or carbine.

None of our visiting children are climbers yet. When they do reach that point, or my wife and I have kids, I'll accept the reality that I now need to lock up my carbine. What ever method I choose to secure it, I'll just have to rehearse deploying it.

One method I've though about is to arm yourself quickly with your loaded handgun first, then retrieve you carbine. Use one of those quick access lock boxes and practice opening it in the dark.

This is a well-reasoned plan, IMO. It's good to read about people's rational thoughts in this thread, rather than the usual "I'll grab my AR and light 'em up" stuff.

MechEng
02-26-2011, 09:29 PM
Thanks Jay for the Kudos. Before my wife met me she never had exposer to firearms. She has a hard time rationalizing unlocked guns around the house. It took me days to talk her into letting me hang the carbine or shotgun above the closet door. :rolleyes: The up side to this is I've been force to think about securing my guns better and still allowing me faster access.

Something to add that may spur some thought...For my handgun I use one of those lock boxes with a Simplex style 5 button lock. Simplex locks have been around forever so they are simple, reliable and very quick to open if you set up your combination right. I set up the combination as a pattern rather than a set of numbers that need to be memorized. That way I don't need to have the lights on to open it. For example, the pattern could be the outer two buttons first (1 & 5), then the center button (3) and lastly the two from either end (2 & 4)...or whatever other countless pattern permutations you can think of. Something else I've done is epoxy a small nut to button number one so I have a reference point for my fingers in the dark. I learned that trick from a blind friend of mine.

If I was going to secure a carbine, I would probably use a rifle case slid under the bed on the opposite side from the bedroom door. I like to use those 3 or 4 digit combination pad-locks on my rifle cases so I don't have to worry about hiding or locating keys. Combination locks are slower to open than keyed locks unless you preset part of the combination so you only have to input one number. Since rifle cases usually need two locks to secure, and you will most likely use the same combo on both, this would give a clever adult your combination, minus one digit, that he can guess in less than ten tries. For small children this should work great and still give you relatively quick access to you carbine after retrieving you handgun.

MTechnik
02-26-2011, 11:28 PM
As far as climbing kids go:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_gbnp0rVlQ

I can also see a reason for Condition 3 being that you don't want to keep whacking expensive BHG ammo in the primer with a floating firing pin.

I go with lebowski's glock and a light at the bedside.

Plus I don't have an SBR that I can lean out of a door sideways easily.

BobM
02-27-2011, 10:54 AM
This is the first I've heard of issues with the 20 rd PMAGs; is there more info/discussion elsewhere? I've not had an issue with the few that I have but they've also not been used as much as my 30s.

MechEng
02-27-2011, 12:24 PM
I can also see a reason for Condition 3 being that you don't want to keep whacking expensive BHG ammo in the primer with a floating firing pin.

I go with lebowski's glock and a light at the bedside.


Good point. If you feel you need a carbine, after retrieving your handgun from the bedside, unlocking the carbine and loading up from condition 3 will take about the same amount of time. One could also argue that loading a magazine and/or chambering a round from condition 3 would be faster than retrieving your carbine from any locked case regardless of how fast you are with the combination lock or key.

GLOCKMASTER
02-27-2011, 07:15 PM
I believe this is oftentimes referred to as "cruiser ready", correct?

In my department cruiser ready is empty chamber with the safety activated.

David Armstrong
02-27-2011, 07:19 PM
What is your reasoning for safety off/chamber empty vs. safety on?
Jay got it. It is a thing known in LE circles as "cruiser ready" and it allows you to charge the weapon and have it immediately ready for use without messing with the safety. IMO, why do you need the safety on if the chamber is empty?

Also, why the M1 carbine?
Lightweight, easy to use, compact design, and for in-home use no need to adjust for holdover with the A1 sights.

GLOCKMASTER
02-27-2011, 07:30 PM
Jay got it. It is a thing known in LE circles as "cruiser ready" and it allows you to charge the weapon and have it immediately ready for use without messing with the safety.

IMHO and based on my professional experience the safety should always be engaged until the weapon is coming up on target. It doesn't take a lot for the trigger to get caught on a piece of kit and cause an unintentional discharge. People have been unintentionally hurt and even killed with this type of mentality.

vmi-mo
02-27-2011, 07:52 PM
IMHO and based on my professional experience the safety should always be engaged until the weapon is coming up on target. It doesn't take a lot for the trigger to get caught on a piece of kit and cause an unintentional discharge. People have been unintentionally hurt and even killed with this type of mentality.

Agree 100%. The safety is never an inhibiter of employment. Also if the saftey is already on that is one less thing to have to do while readying the weapon.


PJ

David Armstrong
02-28-2011, 10:54 AM
IMHO and based on my professional experience the safety should always be engaged until the weapon is coming up on target. It doesn't take a lot for the trigger to get caught on a piece of kit and cause an unintentional discharge. People have been unintentionally hurt and even killed with this type of mentality.
If the chamber is empty, how does the weapon discharge by catching the trigger on anything??? As for the "mentality, it seems to have worked well for LE for decades.

David Armstrong
02-28-2011, 10:58 AM
Agree 100%. The safety is never an inhibiter of employment. Also if the saftey is already on that is one less thing to have to do while readying the weapon.


PJ


Actually, with the shotgun (remember, "cruiser ready" comes from the LE world which until recently used the shottie as the main long gun) the safety can only be activated if the weapon is already cocked, and if it is cocked you can't operate the slide. So by having the safety on you do have to go through some extra manipulation to get the gun into firing mode. I'm not saying that is the only way to do it, but when one has spent years training in deploying a weapon in a certain way there is something to be said for commonality in use, so lots of us old LEO types are used to not activating the safety until the chamber is charged.

vmi-mo
02-28-2011, 12:22 PM
Actually, with the shotgun (remember, "cruiser ready" comes from the LE world which until recently used the shottie as the main long gun) the safety can only be activated if the weapon is already cocked, and if it is cocked you can't operate the slide. So by having the safety on you do have to go through some extra manipulation to get the gun into firing mode. I'm not saying that is the only way to do it, but when one has spent years training in deploying a weapon in a certain way there is something to be said for commonality in use.

I am speaking specifically to the AR platform. There is too wide of a range of shotguns to give hard and fasts.

I personally feel the safety should be on unless you are about to engage a target. As Glockmaster stated it helps to reduce the risk of a negligent discharge.

There are alot of things that have been trained for years that make no sense.



PJ

David Armstrong
02-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Fair enough. IMO learning a different set of concepts when not needed is somewhat counterproductive, particularly in the home environment where multiple shooters may have need to access the firearms, but to each their own. I'd rather teach a common process across various platforms (chamber round, activate safety if needed) than have to teach different processes, but that's just me.

vmi-mo
02-28-2011, 01:11 PM
Fair enough. IMO learning a different set of concepts when not needed is somewhat counterproductive, particularly in the home environment where multiple shooters may have need to access the firearms, but to each their own. I'd rather teach a common process across various platforms (chamber round, activate safety if needed) than have to teach different processes, but that's just me.

I can see the reasoning for that philosophy. But for me each weapon system gets treated differently. I am not going to base my manual of arms for a pistol the same way I do a rifle.

As you said to each his own.


PJ

GLOCKMASTER
02-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Jay got it. It is a thing known in LE circles as "cruiser ready" and it allows you to charge the weapon and have it immediately ready for use without messing with the safety. IMO, why do you need the safety on if the chamber is empty?

Lightweight, easy to use, compact design, and for in-home use no need to adjust for holdover with the A1 sights.


If the chamber is empty, how does the weapon discharge by catching the trigger on anything??? As for the "mentality, it seems to have worked well for LE for decades.

FWIW I have been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so I have a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community. The mentality I was talking about is highlighted above. You don't mess with a safety you manipulate into the firing position. If handling a loaded weapon it should be on safe unless you're acquiring or have acquired a target. There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. We carry our 820 AR's in the cruiser safe mode ie: bolt forward on a empty chamber and on safe and it's never been a problem.

Of course YMMV......

David Armstrong
03-01-2011, 12:53 AM
FWIW I have been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so I have a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community. The mentality I was talking about is highlighted above. You don't mess with a safety you manipulate into the firing position. If handling a loaded weapon it should be on safe unless you're acquiring or have acquired a target. There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. We carry our 820 AR's in the cruiser safe mode ie: bolt forward on a empty chamber and on safe and it's never been a problem.

Of course YMMV......
Ummm, I'm not sure what the "mentality" crack is about. Again, "cruiser ready" for LE has always meant chamber empty safety off with the shotgun. I fail to see any reason to change the terminology for the AR. If the chamber is empty, the weapon is not loaded and cannot be fired. Thus having the safety on is rather redundant. When you charge the chamber, you put the safety on if appropriate. That is what I learned in the service, that is what I learned at DTI, that is what I learned at Thunder Ranch. Again, there is a lot to be said for simplicity and commonality across weapon platforms. Not everyone has an AR for home defense, not everyone is LE. I tend to focus my discussions and training on the typical gun owner, with the typical limited training and experience.

GLOCKMASTER
03-01-2011, 08:14 AM
H
Ummm, I'm not sure what the "mentality" crack is about. Again, "cruiser ready" for LE has always meant chamber empty safety off with the shotgun. I fail to see any reason to change the terminology for the AR. If the chamber is empty, the weapon is not loaded and cannot be fired. Thus having the safety on is rather redundant. When you charge the chamber, you put the safety on if appropriate. That is what I learned in the service, that is what I learned at DTI, that is what I learned at Thunder Ranch. Again, there is a lot to be said for simplicity and commonality across weapon platforms. Not everyone has an AR for home defense, not everyone is LE. I tend to focus my discussions and training on the typical gun owner, with the typical limited training and experience.

Here cruiser ready/safe has always been with the safety on. All of the local departments that I know of use the safety in the cruiser safe mode.

The million dollar question is, why wouldn't you use the safety?

vmi-mo
03-01-2011, 11:19 AM
Ummm, I'm not sure what the "mentality" crack is about. Again, "cruiser ready" for LE has always meant chamber empty safety off with the shotgun. I fail to see any reason to change the terminology for the AR. If the chamber is empty, the weapon is not loaded and cannot be fired. Thus having the safety on is rather redundant. When you charge the chamber, you put the safety on if appropriate. That is what I learned in the service, that is what I learned at DTI, that is what I learned at Thunder Ranch. Again, there is a lot to be said for simplicity and commonality across weapon platforms. Not everyone has an AR for home defense, not everyone is LE. I tend to focus my discussions and training on the typical gun owner, with the typical limited training and experience.

The most common time I see guys rolling with a hot weapon and saftey off is under the conditions you stated. Where the weapon is on fire, chamber empty and they then chamber a round. This is seen on ranges. Imagine what would happen if stress was induced.

The saftey on an AR is a flick on is plenty easy to build into a system with no problems.

It doesnt matter what your level is, the safety is your friend here.

PJ

David Armstrong
03-01-2011, 02:38 PM
H

Here cruiser ready/safe has always been with the safety on. All of the local departments that I know of use the safety in the cruiser safe mode.

The million dollar question is, why wouldn't you use the safety?
Maybe it is a Mid-West thing, although I did a fair amount of teaching outside that area, and everybody I can remember used the term the same (loaded magazine, chamber empty, trigger pulled, off safe). So you have always kept shotguns cocked and the safety on, requiring that you find the action bar release and hit it before you can pump the slide? Seems like a bit of extra that doesn't do much, IMO.

I would use the safety if there was a round in the chamber. Otherwise, as I said, it seems somewhat problematic. It eliminates the commonality factor, it requires the hammer to be in the cocked position putting the springs under tension rather than at rest.

David Armstrong
03-01-2011, 02:43 PM
The most common time I see guys rolling with a hot weapon and saftey off is under the conditions you stated. Where the weapon is on fire, chamber empty and they then chamber a round. This is seen on ranges. Imagine what would happen if stress was induced.
You mean carrying the long gun just lke they carry their handgun, right? Hot weapon, safety off?

The saftey on an AR is a flick on is plenty easy to build into a system with no problems.
Then why do you seem to think it would be problematic to flick it on if appropriate after charging the chamber? And again, not everyone uses the AR platform for HD. Some folks are using the Garand style safety, or the AK style, etc.

It doesnt matter what your level is, the safety is your friend here.
No disagreement. The disagreement seems to be how to utilize that friendliness.

vmi-mo
03-01-2011, 03:21 PM
You mean carrying the long gun just lke they carry their handgun, right? Hot weapon, safety off?

Then why do you seem to think it would be problematic to flick it on if appropriate after charging the chamber? And again, not everyone uses the AR platform for HD. Some folks are using the Garand style safety, or the AK style, etc.

No disagreement. The disagreement seems to be how to utilize that friendliness.

Pistols stay in holsters with their triggers covered and not acessible. Rifles are out free floating around the galaxy where things can hit their triggers.

Im not saying it would be problematic to flick it on. I am saying people FORGET too. Which is why I stated my observations about guys and hot weapons.

As an example of the keeping things the same throughout systems; Just because you run an AK one way does not mean you should force yourself to run an AR the same way just to keep things the same. You end up killing efficiencey by trying to be efficient.

PJ

LittleLebowski
03-01-2011, 07:03 PM
Which pistols are being carried loaded with the safety off?

GLOCKMASTER
03-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Maybe it is a Mid-West thing, although I did a fair amount of teaching outside that area, and everybody I can remember used the term the same (loaded magazine, chamber empty, trigger pulled, off safe). So you have always kept shotguns cocked and the safety on, requiring that you find the action bar release and hit it before you can pump the slide? Seems like a bit of extra that doesn't do much, IMO.

I would use the safety if there was a round in the chamber. Otherwise, as I said, it seems somewhat problematic. It eliminates the commonality factor, it requires the hammer to be in the cocked position putting the springs under tension rather than at rest.

Yes we've always kept our long guns that way regardless if it's an AR or shotty. We train our members that way from day one and it's not an issue. It takes really no longer to get the long gun into play since you disengage the safety as you're acquiring the target. Also it has no wear effect on the springs that we can see.

I worked Google on this topic and most of what came back on cruiser safe showed that a lot of departments keep long guns stored like we do. I even found a lesson plan from the Arizona Department of Public Safety that teaches shotgun cruiser safe with the safety on.
Look at page 5 (http://licensing.azdps.gov/shotgun4hr.pdf)

The main reason to teach using the safety for this method of storage is that you cannot go wrong.

TCinVA
03-02-2011, 08:45 AM
I think the safety thing here boils down to risk analysis.

If I feel that I'm in a position where I must chamber a round and get the weapon into action with such speed that the extra .10 of a second it may take to disengage the safety can mean the difference between dying screaming or surviving, I'll leave the safety off. One can speculate as to the likelihood of that scenario, however.

If, on the other hand, I'm sufficiently well trained on the weapon that I've learned to operate the safety reflexively as a part of presenting the weapon on a threat, (which is where everyone using a carbine should be) then I gain nothing by having the safety off. I leave the safety on, however, I gain an extra measure of protection against the innumerable host of things that can go hideously wrong when I'm using a firearm under real stress.

David Armstrong
03-02-2011, 02:32 PM
Pistols stay in holsters with their triggers covered and not acessible. Rifles are out free floating around the galaxy where things can hit their triggers.
Pistols get taken out of their holsters just like rifles get taken out of their carriers. If they are both being carried, should the method of carry be the same or different?

Im not saying it would be problematic to flick it on. I am saying people FORGET too. Which is why I stated my observations about guys and hot weapons.
So then a good reason to leave it off safe would be that people would FORGET to take it off safe when they needed to use it, as I follow your reasoning.

As an example of the keeping things the same throughout systems; Just because you run an AK one way does not mean you should force yourself to run an AR the same way just to keep things the same. You end up killing efficiencey by trying to be efficient.
And if you develop commonality across the platforms where possible you improve efficiency.

Look, I'm not saying my way is right and the other is wrong. I'm pointing out there is a school of thought, fairly well established, that suggests an alternative method and has reasons for it. Whatever works good for you in your situation may not be so good for someone else in another situation.

David Armstrong
03-02-2011, 02:37 PM
The main reason to teach using the safety for this method of storage is that you cannot go wrong.

We will apparently have to agree to disagree, particularly as it relates to the shotgun. FWIW, I'll see your AZ DPS and raise one U.S. Border Patrol (safety off)!:D

David Armstrong
03-02-2011, 02:40 PM
Which pistols are being carried loaded with the safety off?
Safety off carry has become the preferred method for DAO or DA/SA autoloaders for many agencies and people.

vmi-mo
03-02-2011, 03:34 PM
Pistols get taken out of their holsters just like rifles get taken out of their carriers. If they are both being carried, should the method of carry be the same or different? .

We operate in different environments. Rifles are always out, pistols are in holsters.


So then a good reason to leave it off safe would be that people would FORGET to take it off safe when they needed to use it, as I follow your reasoning..

I have yet to see a person on an AR platform, who is familiar with the system, not take the saftey off when firing. I have seen very proficient people forget to put the saftey on.


Whatever works good for you in your situation may not be so good for someone else in another situation.

Agree, however I feel there should be some universal "guidelines"


PJ

GLOCKMASTER
03-02-2011, 05:55 PM
Never mind I don't think it's worth it as I feel like I have wasted too much time with this already.

jar
03-02-2011, 06:05 PM
Agree, however I feel there should be some universal "guidelines

There are, we just don't agree on what they are. :rolleyes:

There are valid reasons for both. For me it's a wash on the AR platform. On a pump shotgun, I prefer hammer down, safety off. I don't want to have to hit the fiddly little action release to be able to cycle it.

David Armstrong
03-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Agree, however I feel there should be some universal "guidelines"
Agreed, which is where commonality rules the roost, IMO. For example, most any pump shotgun works the same as most any other pump shotgun with chamber empty safety off. With safety on, however, you now have to figure out where the action release is and how to release it and where the safety is. Safety off gives a universal "this is how you get it into action" response.

I have yet to see a person on an AR platform, who is familiar with the system, not take the saftey off when firing. I have seen very proficient people forget to put the saftey on.
Whereas I have seen a number of folks with just about every platform forget to take the safety off under stress.

We operate in different environments. Rifles are always out, pistols are in holsters.
Which is my point. Platform specific within environment specific doen't mean "good across the board." But you seem to keep avoiding the question. Pistols are taken out of their holsters. Should we have a different method of carrying them once they are out of the holster? The pistol is usually carried with the safety off. Why is that good for the pistol but a fatal flaw with the long gun?

vmi-mo
03-03-2011, 04:29 PM
Whereas I have seen a number of folks with just about every platform forget to take the safety off under stress.

IMHO If I have guys who cannot work the safety, I am gonna spend alot of time with that shooter so they know how to work it. This is a trianing issue, not a hardware issue.

Also, if a shooter cannot be relied on to take the weapon off safe, how do you expect them to put in on safe?



Which is my point. Platform specific within environment specific doen't mean "good across the board." But you seem to keep avoiding the question. Pistols are taken out of their holsters. Should we have a different method of carrying them once they are out of the holster? The pistol is usually carried with the safety off. Why is that good for the pistol but a fatal flaw with the long gun?

My pistol is in a holster. Its firing mechanism is protected from outside influences. It only gets taken out when my primary goes down and there is someone deserving who needs to get it. When I am finished with it, it goes back into a holster.

My rifle is slung across the front of me all the time. It is banged off my kit, walls, the ground, internal structure etc. There are alot of things that can get at the trigger of my rifle. My rifle stays on safe until I have sights on a target.

Once again, we operate in different environments. YMMV

Another example, when I sleep with my rifle in cond 3, and we might get hit in the middle of the night (only happened in training) I still leave the safety on.


PJ

David Armstrong
03-04-2011, 12:03 AM
IMHO If I have guys who cannot work the safety, I am gonna spend alot of time with that shooter so they know how to work it. This is a trianing issue, not a hardware issue.
Also, if a shooter cannot be relied on to take the weapon off safe, how do you expect them to put in on safe?
You seem to be the one who is trying to argue that ability only goes one way. I've seen it both ways so IMO to argue that it is only an issue about not putting it on is questionable. But FWIW I might suggest that if one is in a hurry and under stress the odds are that it is because you need to use the gun, thus giving the edge to safety off.

My pistol is in a holster. Its firing mechanism is protected from outside influences. It only gets taken out when my primary goes down and there is someone deserving who needs to get it. When I am finished with it, it goes back into a holster.
And when it is in the holster is it carried safety on or safety off? And when yo take it out of the holster do you carry it safety on or safety off? Seems like a fairly easy question for you to have such a hard time answering it.

My rifle is slung across the front of me all the time. It is banged off my kit, walls, the ground, internal structure etc. There are alot of things that can get at the trigger of my rifle. My rifle stays on safe until I have sights on a target.
Which seems to have absolutely nothing to do with whether the firearm should be stored with the safety on or off.

vmi-mo
03-04-2011, 07:59 AM
This is my last post under the subject then I am following GLOCKMASTER's lead.


You seem to be the one who is trying to argue that ability only goes one way. I've seen it both ways so IMO to argue that it is only an issue about not putting it on is questionable. But FWIW I might suggest that if one is in a hurry and under stress the odds are that it is because you need to use the gun, thus giving the edge to safety off..

I stated I have NEVER seen a guy not be able to take the safety off. I HAVE seen very experienced people forget to put the saftey on when they initially grab and load a weapon.



And when it is in the holster is it carried safety on or safety off? And when yo take it out of the holster do you carry it safety on or safety off? Seems like a fairly easy question for you to have such a hard time answering it..

When the pistol is in the holster its safety off with a rd in the chamber in DA. The holster is acting as the safety for the system. The pistol comes out, only when the primary goes down. IE it comes out, shoots the target, then it goes back into a holster.


Which seems to have absolutely nothing to do with whether the firearm should be stored with the safety on or off.

You asked me to clarify what the difference between how I carry a rifle and pistol and what circumstances make these different.

So for instance you have to deploy your carbine. You bust it out of the rack, load it by using the charging handle, and as I have witnessed alot (I am not saying you specifically) forget to put the saftey on. You proceed to close with in an attempt to destroy the enemy. However your rifle catches on kit, and discharges because you did not have the saftey on.

BTW I have actually witnessed the above happen, in training with live and blank rounds......

But hey to each is own. I would just rather have guys go down from enemy fire than my own incompetence and forgetfullness.


PJ

TCinVA
03-04-2011, 08:17 AM
And when it is in the holster is it carried safety on or safety off? And when yo take it out of the holster do you carry it safety on or safety off? Seems like a fairly easy question for you to have such a hard time answering it.


I think he's tried to answer the question, but perhaps there is a breakdown in communication. I think we can all agree that the world where someone's rifle is their primary and goes with them everywhere is very different than the world where it spends most of the time in a gunsafe or a lockup of some kind awaiting command approval to deploy. (SOP in many departments requires approval from someone with stripes on their shoulder to deploy a long gun) Holsters offer a protection to pistols that rifles do not have. If you're in a profession where you spend literally every waking moment with your rifle strapped across your chest and every sleeping moment with the rifle on your person or immediately at hand, the merits of having the weapon on safe unless actively pulling the trigger become self evident.

If the pistol was carried the same way and subject to the same concerns having one without a manual safety engaged would be unacceptable. Since pistols can go into holsters that block access to the trigger, one can crawl through a bunch of brush without worry that their weapon is going to go off, or climb a ladder without worry that their pistol is going to flop and bang into stuff, etc. It's difficult to replicate that with a rifle.

For VMI-MO, the rifle is not something that sits waiting for a "break in case of emergency" moment...it's something he can't even go to the porta-john without having on his person. He's around a bunch of other dudes in the same circumstance and doubtless he's seen all sorts of situations where having that safety engaged has prevented disaster. I don't know how many times you've seen a rifle knocked over in a tent by some dudes "practicing" MMA, or seen someone go ass over tea-kettle into the dirt with the rifle in their hand, or even witness someone fall through a roof/floor of a structure while there's a rifle on them. I'm sure in his travels VMI-MO has seen lots of those types of events take place and as a result has come to view the engaged safety as the preferred default because of it.

I know that some departments have approached the concept of "cruiser ready" with the safety in the off position, but there are documented instances of that turning into a problem. A conspicuous example that leaps instantly to mind is one of the people who worked on the theft squad with Jelly Brice who chambered a round in his shotgun when they were about to deal with some bad guys but while getting out of the car slipped and ended up shooting himself in the leg with his own weapon. When discussing people that are going to be expected to move with the weapon in a real world environment where they might have to climb over things and under things and may bump into things in the dark...and they're doing all of this often with poor weapon handling habits, (6 hours of initial carbine training and then the officers don't really touch the carbines again until the 10 round quals held annually in one department I know of) then the requirement that the safety on the rifle is engaged by default makes a lot more sense. The risks associated with an officer being unable to disengage the safety can be dwarfed by the statistically more likely risk that the officer will forget to engage the safety and have a murphy moment that results in tragedy.

I don't think the discussion on pistols is particularly germane because while pistols are indeed taken out of the holster, they don't live outside of the holster. Rifles do, and that presents a whole host of issues that just aren't there with the pistol. I think it can be counterproductive to treat different weapons as if they are identical because it doesn't really address what's best or most efficient for using that weapon in a safe and effective manner.

Personally I keep my carbine at home with an empty chamber and the safety off. If tomorrow I found myself in a position where I had to worry about a bunch of guys with machineguns or guiding the practices of a large law enforcement agency where I've seen enough weapons handling issues to scare the bejeezus out of anyone, I would use a default safety-on approach.

Let's try to remember to have these disagreements respectfully and always keep in mind that the world may be bigger than the limitations of our experience. We may feel passionately about things based on our experience and training, but let's always remain open to the idea that others may have training and experience that is just as valid.

FotoTomas
03-05-2011, 08:48 AM
I enjoyed the logic of the original post. It is similar to my logic for my LE patrol carbine. I stay with the 16 inch barrel to avoid the NFA silliness and to help cut down the blast effect a little as well.

For home defense the carbine is not a good choice in my circumstance. For the bump in the night I have to make a choice to investigate or not. If I feel that I have a real problem then I do NOT investigate. I call 911 and set up a defensive position with the shotgun pointed at the door. IF i feel said bump might be the cat then I will investigate with a pistol in hand. In my case the handling ease of the pistol outweighs the power of a carbine.

I do live in a neighborhood prone to nasty weather. Hurricanes and tornados have caused much gnashing of teeth around my home. During the aftermath the Carbine is deployed as well as a pair of shotguns around the house during the day until normalcy returns.

As for "cruiser ready"... I trump you all! Several small departments where I have worked in the past used Three DIFFERENT definitions. These applied to shotguns. All required chamber empty carry. One was chamber empty, hammer down and off safe(shotgun action unlocked). One was chamber empty, hammer back and on safe (shotgun action locked), the last was Chamber empty hammer back and off safe (shotgun action locked).

As for the ecletic mix of rifles we had access to which included AR's, Mini 14's, Remington pump and semi auto sporting arms and several Winchester 94's. The same rules applied within the different administrative handling procedures each arm presented. Cruiser Ready is a term I have yet to seen defined that is not agency specific.

David Armstrong
03-05-2011, 02:59 PM
I stated I have NEVER seen a guy not be able to take the safety off. I HAVE seen very experienced people forget to put the saftey on when they initially grab and load a weapon.
Just as I have seen very experienced people forget to take the safety off. That is my point. The issue goes both ways, it is not a single-direction problem. If a person can't remember to put the safety on when appropriate it is somewhat debatable that they can remember to take it off when appropriate.

When the pistol is in the holster its safety off with a rd in the chamber in DA. The holster is acting as the safety for the system. The pistol comes out, only when the primary goes down. IE it comes out, shoots the target, then it goes back into a holster.
So for one weapon we have it in storage with the chamber loaded and the safety off, and I'll assume stays safety off while being put in the hand and presented and pointed at the target and so on. Which is no different than picking the rifle up from storage, safety off, and charging the weapon, then putting it on safe if needed.

You asked me to clarify what the difference between how I carry a rifle and pistol and what circumstances make these different.
And you clarified that what you are discussing has nothing to do with the "how should the gun be stored" issue. Thank you, that makes the apparent disconnect in the conversation a bit more understandable.

So for instance you have to deploy your carbine. You bust it out of the rack, load it by using the charging handle, and as I have witnessed alot (I am not saying you specifically) forget to put the saftey on. You proceed to close with in an attempt to destroy the enemy. However your rifle catches on kit, and discharges because you did not have the saftey on.
Again, how is it that is not a problem with the handgun but only the long gun? And if this is such a problem how is it that folks manage to get the safety back on immediately after the stress of the fight?

BTW I have actually witnessed the above happen, in training with live and blank rounds......
Just as I have witnessed, repeatedly, folks forgetting to take the safety off of their weapon under stress.

But hey to each is own. I would just rather have guys go down from enemy fire than my own incompetence and forgetfullness.
Not sure how storing the firearm with safety on or off has anything to do with guys going down to enemy fire. But I agree, to each his own, and I've enjoyed the alternate point of view.

David Armstrong
03-05-2011, 09:10 PM
I think he's tried to answer the question, but perhaps there is a breakdown in communication.
I agree. I'm approaching it from the position of generalized concepts for training and he seems to be approaching it from targeted training for specific platforms and situations, which is fine. If one is fortunate enough to be in that situation, that works out great. I may have misunderstood, but I thought the thread's focus was guns in the context of home defense, not fighting in the war zone. Having done both I know I certainly approach the two from very different perspectives.

I know that some departments have approached the concept of "cruiser ready" with the safety in the off position, but there are documented instances of that turning into a problem.
Sure, just as there are documented instances of the safety in the on position turning into a problem.

When discussing people that are going to be expected to move with the weapon in a real world environment where they might have to climb over things and under things and may bump into things in the dark...and they're doing all of this often with poor weapon handling habits, (6 hours of initial carbine training and then the officers don't really touch the carbines again until the 10 round quals held annually in one department I know of) then the requirement that the safety on the rifle is engaged by default makes a lot more sense. The risks associated with an officer being unable to disengage the safety can be dwarfed by the statistically more likely risk that the officer will forget to engage the safety and have a murphy moment that results in tragedy.
Sorry, I'll continue to disagree. Nobody has yet explained why looking for bad guys with a psitol in your hand off safe is that much different than hunting for bad guys with a long gun in your hand off safe or why the individual is more likely to forget to put the safety on when appropriate as opposed to take the safety off when appropriate.

I don't think the discussion on pistols is particularly germane because while pistols are indeed taken out of the holster, they don't live outside of the holster.
And rifles don't live in the hand, either. Rifles live in the closet, or in the rack, often in the case. In fact, for home defense, often they are in the closet and in a case.
Personally I keep my carbine at home with an empty chamber and the safety off. If tomorrow I found myself in a position where I had to worry about a bunch of guys with machineguns or guiding the practices of a large law enforcement agency where I've seen enough weapons handling issues to scare the bejeezus out of anyone, I would use a default safety-on approach.
I think that is the point. There isn't a right-wrong for most of this stuff, there is advantages versus disadvantages. The trick is to figure out how to maximize the advantages and minimize the disadvantages for each person's particular situation or need.

Jay Cunningham
03-05-2011, 09:39 PM
I may have misunderstood, but I thought the thread's focus was guns in the context of home defense, not fighting in the war zone.

Yes, that's correct - hence "mission drives the gear train." Mission can also drive the training regimen. Experience can also drive both the gear train and the training regimen.

:)

jstephens202
03-17-2011, 03:01 PM
I think he's tried to answer the question, but perhaps there is a breakdown in communication. I think we can all agree that the world where someone's rifle is their primary and goes with them everywhere is very different than the world where it spends most of the time in a gunsafe or a lockup of some kind awaiting command approval to deploy. (SOP in many departments requires approval from someone with stripes on their shoulder to deploy a long gun) Holsters offer a protection to pistols that rifles do not have. If you're in a profession where you spend literally every waking moment with your rifle strapped across your chest and every sleeping moment with the rifle on your person or immediately at hand, the merits of having the weapon on safe unless actively pulling the trigger become self evident.

If the pistol was carried the same way and subject to the same concerns having one without a manual safety engaged would be unacceptable. Since pistols can go into holsters that block access to the trigger, one can crawl through a bunch of brush without worry that their weapon is going to go off, or climb a ladder without worry that their pistol is going to flop and bang into stuff, etc. It's difficult to replicate that with a rifle.

For VMI-MO, the rifle is not something that sits waiting for a "break in case of emergency" moment...it's something he can't even go to the porta-john without having on his person. He's around a bunch of other dudes in the same circumstance and doubtless he's seen all sorts of situations where having that safety engaged has prevented disaster. I don't know how many times you've seen a rifle knocked over in a tent by some dudes "practicing" MMA, or seen someone go ass over tea-kettle into the dirt with the rifle in their hand, or even witness someone fall through a roof/floor of a structure while there's a rifle on them. I'm sure in his travels VMI-MO has seen lots of those types of events take place and as a result has come to view the engaged safety as the preferred default because of it.

I know that some departments have approached the concept of "cruiser ready" with the safety in the off position, but there are documented instances of that turning into a problem. A conspicuous example that leaps instantly to mind is one of the people who worked on the theft squad with Jelly Brice who chambered a round in his shotgun when they were about to deal with some bad guys but while getting out of the car slipped and ended up shooting himself in the leg with his own weapon. When discussing people that are going to be expected to move with the weapon in a real world environment where they might have to climb over things and under things and may bump into things in the dark...and they're doing all of this often with poor weapon handling habits, (6 hours of initial carbine training and then the officers don't really touch the carbines again until the 10 round quals held annually in one department I know of) then the requirement that the safety on the rifle is engaged by default makes a lot more sense. The risks associated with an officer being unable to disengage the safety can be dwarfed by the statistically more likely risk that the officer will forget to engage the safety and have a murphy moment that results in tragedy.

I don't think the discussion on pistols is particularly germane because while pistols are indeed taken out of the holster, they don't live outside of the holster. Rifles do, and that presents a whole host of issues that just aren't there with the pistol. I think it can be counterproductive to treat different weapons as if they are identical because it doesn't really address what's best or most efficient for using that weapon in a safe and effective manner.

Personally I keep my carbine at home with an empty chamber and the safety off. If tomorrow I found myself in a position where I had to worry about a bunch of guys with machineguns or guiding the practices of a large law enforcement agency where I've seen enough weapons handling issues to scare the bejeezus out of anyone, I would use a default safety-on approach.

Let's try to remember to have these disagreements respectfully and always keep in mind that the world may be bigger than the limitations of our experience. We may feel passionately about things based on our experience and training, but let's always remain open to the idea that others may have training and experience that is just as valid.

My M4 is stored chamber empty, safety off, just like yours. I have a surefire white light attached, a nite sight front post, and a spare 30rd mag on the stock with a 2 point sling. Simple, yet ready to go when I need it. Since we have no under 15 kids in the house, and my daughter knows no one goes in mom and dad's room, I feel it is safe yet ready if needed. Daughter has shot all my guns and is well versed in the safety rules.

DocGKR
03-18-2011, 01:46 AM
We use chamber empty, loaded magazine, safety on...

Jay Cunningham
06-08-2011, 10:07 PM
So following my own guidelines, here is the current incarnation of my HD carbine:

65

In my original post, I wrote about a "dedicated weaponlight" but I've come to appreciate the utility of having an HH light like a G2L in a QD mount. This gives some additional versatility... I'm considering attaching a tourniquet or even a subcompact BOK to the sling.

Keebsley
06-09-2011, 06:25 PM
So following my own guidelines, here is the current incarnation of my HD carbine:

65

In my original post, I wrote about a "dedicated weaponlight" but I've come to appreciate the utility of having an HH light like a G2L in a QD mount. This gives some additional versatility... I'm considering attaching a tourniquet or even a subcompact BOK to the sling.

There are a few that rubber band or tie a TQ somehow to their VLTOR stock by removing one of the storage compartments. Might look at that for a solution to mouting a TQ on your rifle.

Jay Cunningham
06-09-2011, 06:28 PM
A good idea and I have considered it.

jslaker
06-09-2011, 08:29 PM
The fact that my LGS had a couple of sporterized ones tonight has gotten me thinking about something I've touched on before -- that I really wish somebody would build a modernized .30 carbine.

An M1 Carbine style rifle that could readily accommodate a flashlight and modern optics seems perfectly suited for an all-around home gun, IMO.

Jay Cunningham
06-09-2011, 08:34 PM
UltiMAK makes a rail that allows an M1 carbine to easily utilize a light and T-1 Micro.

John Ralston
06-09-2011, 08:36 PM
Are all the Magpul 20 round issues FTFeed? I have several, and I have never had an issue with them. I too like the 20's for my HD Carbine for their compactness (I also use them for hunting), but I don't want one to shit the bed on me when I need it most.

Jay Cunningham
06-09-2011, 08:38 PM
I have heard lots of problems with the 20 rd. PMags. The 1st gen Lancers seem to work well, but I don't know about the new gen.

Jay Cunningham
11-06-2011, 10:36 AM
I wanted to see how the AAC "Honey Badger" .300BLK PDW concept stacks up to my list of requirements for a home defense carbine (from what we think we know):

http://www.aacblog.com/wp-content/uploads/HB_Compare.jpg



barrel length 10″ to 12.5″

mil-spec “NATO” chamber and M4 feed ramps

1/8 or 1/7 twist rate

fixed compact or adjustable length stock

20 round magazines

75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, or 77 gr SMK OTM ammunition

dedicated weapon light (examples: SF X300, M300A Scout, Insight WX150 LED, Streamlight TLR)

compact, lightweight suppressor (examples: SF Mini, Gemtech TREK, AAC RANGER 2)

lightweight rail, preferably partially enclosing suppressor and/or mounting a handstop to protect from burns

Boonie Packer Redi-Mag (or BFG Redi-Mod)

fixed front sight and fixed or deployed folding rear sight

optical sight (examples: Aimpoint Micro T-1, EOTech XPS) or visible laser (example: Insight AN/PEQ-5 CVL)

quick deploying two point sling (VCAS w/QD mounts, VTAC-PS Attachment Sling)

Obviously certain parts of the above were written with a 5.56mm AR-15 in mind, but others were more generic. From what we know of the Honey Badger, it would fill the bill quite nicely. Hopefully we'll get more terminal ballistic data on the subsonic loads.

Tamara
11-06-2011, 01:55 PM
Are all the Magpul 20 round issues FTFeed? I have several, and I have never had an issue with them. I too like the 20's for my HD Carbine for their compactness (I also use them for hunting), but I don't want one to shit the bed on me when I need it most.

My 20 rounders have only seen light usage (maybe 2 range trips and a 1-day Appleseed clinic) and the only problem I've had so far was an overinsertion (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2009/11/i-am-become-death-destroyer-of-gear.html), but standing there in a class with two people having to tug-o-war a mag out of the gun was kind of a turn-off. :( Hence me not having used them since so as to have a chance to discover other failure modes...

If my scrawny arms can slap one into the magwell hard enough that it takes two people to get it un-stuck, I'm pretty sure that someone with some upper-body strength could really wedge one in there.

Al T.
11-06-2011, 06:55 PM
An M1 Carbine style rifle that could readily accommodate a flashlight and modern optics seems perfectly suited for an all-around home gun, IMO.

Mini-14.

As for the 20 round Pmags, mine seem to be fine, but a buddy's do induce malfunctions.

JAD
11-07-2011, 04:58 PM
My 20 round PMags work fine, but my ready mags are mil-spec 20s. I prefer them to 30s because I was taught to run my support arm as vertically as possible under the forearm (do they still teach it like that?), and the 20s interfere less with my forearm that way.

I run a lightweight gun because the houseclearing I've done with my former 10 pound Vang 870 (one stray cat in the kitchen, one or two unexplained noises) has been tiring as FUDGE. It was a big house and I clear slow. I therefore strapped a light on my formerly Walter Mitty / Zombie Apocalypse MT6530 and enjoy clearing with it much more.

However, some of my betters are trying to persuade me to come back over to the dark side and revert to a shotty (maybe an NFA 14") for home defense. It's tempting -- I see a lot of flaws with 5.56 for clearing, particularly without a suppressor (or in my case, even a flash hider -- it's kind of an old gun), and in my heart of hearts I trust 12 gauge more than 5.56.

I dither, I really do. It's kind of moot, because I /do/ have a crumbmuncher who's just getting ready to start jogging. Need to build me a bedside pistol!

DocGKR
11-07-2011, 06:41 PM
As posted before, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/HomecarbineWP.jpg?t=1232698319

Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun with #1 buckshot would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me, or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.

Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.

Al T.
11-07-2011, 08:57 PM
Good post Doc. :)

Jay, you don't seem to be worried about using a suppressor in a self defense situation. For me and in my location, I would be. Got any thoughts about that?

For folks wondering about the 5.56 (with proper ammo) being less penetrative, here's (IMHO) the best single post on the net about that subject:

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-%28Adpat%29

Jay Cunningham
11-07-2011, 09:19 PM
Good post Doc. :)

Jay, you don't seem to be worried about using a suppressor in a self defense situation. For me and in my location, I would be. Got any thoughts about that?

Before I answer, let me ask you: why would you be?

DocGKR
11-07-2011, 11:04 PM
Al T. -- The linked test is pretty worthless, as it fails to show the damage potential of the projectiles after they got through the wall.

As long as a self-defense shooting was appropriate for the circumstances (ie. a good shoot) and the suppressor a legal, properly papered device, then a good attorney would be able to clearly articulate the benefits and prudence of using a suppressor for self-defense purposes--there should be NO downside.

Al T.
11-08-2011, 11:40 AM
Jay, Doc, around here we have had some terrible prosecutions for "good shoots". Next county over gets it, mine does not. :mad:

My surprise at your suppressor generated the question. Here, I take it seriously enough that my ARs are in the safe and the household long guns are shotguns.

P30shtr
11-15-2011, 11:07 PM
Which pistols are being carried loaded with the safety off?

I'm jumpin in.

Everything except a 1911

Jay Cunningham
11-15-2011, 11:14 PM
Glocks for instance have three passive safeties and they are all engaged when the gun is being carried with a round in the chamber. Because you choose not to recognize a passive safety as a safety does not mean that it's not a safety.

P30shtr
11-15-2011, 11:18 PM
FWIW I have been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so I have a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community. The mentality I was talking about is highlighted above. You don't mess with a safety you manipulate into the firing position. If handling a loaded weapon it should be on safe unless you're acquiring or have acquired a target. There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. I suppose thats the guns fault and not the operator, or bad practice of said traing... We carry our 820 AR's in the cruiser safe mode ie: bolt forward on a empty chamber and on safe and it's never been a problem.

Of course YMMV......it sure does

I thought this thread was HD carbine... You "cops" have politics, lawsuits, jobs, rep and, whatever else you have to worry about. Hence the reason for empty chamber, safety on. Oh yeah and, 10 other guys backing you up so, youve got a minute to play with safeties.

Its a shame everyones sooo scared of their triggers these days.

P30shtr
11-15-2011, 11:39 PM
I personally feel the safety should be on unless you are about to engage a target. As Glockmaster stated it helps to reduce the risk of a negligent discharge.

PJ

Since hes the "glockmaster" what is the safety on his glock?? Oh yeah, it doesnt have any = his trigger finger= should apply to his AR as well. Just pretend the AR doesnt have any safeties either. But it does so, everyone is all safety ON this, safety ON that. WHY??

SAFETIES CAN FAIL, dont rely on them for your sloppy (not you, just in general) firearm handling techniques. Safeties on, I'm good. Yeah, ok.

train of thought lost, damnit

LOKNLOD
11-16-2011, 12:08 AM
Since hes the "glockmaster" what is the safety on his glock?? Oh yeah, it doesnt have any = his trigger finger= should apply to his AR as well. Just pretend the AR doesnt have any safeties either. But it does so, everyone is all safety ON this, safety ON that. WHY??

SAFETIES CAN FAIL, dont rely on them for your sloppy (not you, just in general) firearm handling techniques. Safeties on, I'm good. Yeah, ok.

train of thought lost, damnit

His Glock benefits from spending the vast majority of the time it's not actively spitting pieces of plated lead downrange in a holster than protects the trigger. If you had to carry the Glock on a sling around your neck potentially slapping on your other gear, would you want it to have a safety? Besides, flicking the safety off on an AR as it comes up from the ready adds no time or difficulty. It's not an excuse or allowance to be sloppy with the trigger finger.

Claiming that one will get lax in trigger discipline because of a manual safety is a little like saying you'll drive wrecklessly because your car has modern airbags and seatbelts. If you're not capable of maintaining that discipline with the safety, why would you be able to maintain the discipline without the safety? It's a bit of a non-sequitur to me.

P30shtr
11-16-2011, 12:37 AM
His Glock benefits from spending the vast majority of the time it's not actively spitting pieces of plated lead downrange in a holster than protects the trigger. If you had to carry the Glock on a sling around your neck potentially slapping on your other gear, would you want it to have a safety? Besides, flicking the safety off on an AR as it comes up from the ready adds no time or difficulty. It's not an excuse or allowance to be sloppy with the trigger finger.

Claiming that one will get lax in trigger discipline because of a manual safety is a little like saying you'll drive wrecklessly because your car has modern airbags and seatbelts. Bad analogy, rollcages and 5 point harnesses= faster. Just ask Todd, he went to Porsch-aa school If you're not capable of maintaining that discipline with the safety, why would you be able to maintain the discipline without the safety? It's a bit of a non-sequitur to me.

Because you then rely on the safety, you rely on the airbag, you rely on the rollcage, you rely on the harness when you push the issue to save your ass. Sadly this stuff fails sometimes.

There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. <Straight outta the guys keyboard (glockmaster and FWIW he's been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so he has a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community.< Gospel right)

Apparently cops are reckless and negligent, you pick whichever term you like better.. Who'd a thought. He said it, not me. Flame suit on

As for slopping around and banging off of gear. I guess it would be hot/safety on (I contradict myself here because safeties fail) or empty chamber safety off. Both ways skipping a step (empty/safe on). Either way is up to you.

I may be out of my league but, it seems like stupid police politics to me.

Shellback
11-16-2011, 01:17 AM
train of thought lost, damnit

You may want to pull back on the reins a little bit.

P30shtr
11-16-2011, 01:38 AM
You may want to pull back on the reins a little bit.

Oh, I got it back. Do you disagree with the post right above yours??

Shellback
11-16-2011, 02:01 AM
Oh, I got it back. Do you disagree with the post right above yours??

Honestly, it's a bit hard to follow your posts. The last couple of posts are convoluted and disjointed making it a bit difficult to understand fully what your point is other than the obvious vitriol you have for several other forum members in this thread. If that isn't your intention then you might want to slow down and proof read what you've typed before hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

As for me, I'm a safety on kind of guy and plant my flag with several others in this thread for the same reasons that they've already extolled, VMI covered it pretty well in his previous posts.

I carry a Glock 19 every day in an IWB holster. It has 3 passive safeties along with residing in my holster approximately 99% of the time. Whenever it's out of my holster I observe the 4 safety rules and do not have my finger on the trigger, unless I'm intentionally pressing it to the rear.

P30shtr
11-16-2011, 02:08 AM
Honestly, it's a bit hard to follow your posts. The last couple of posts are convoluted and disjointed making it a bit difficult to understand fully what your point is other than the obvious vitriol you have for several other forum members in this thread. If that isn't your intention then you might want to slow down and proof read what you've typed before hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

As for me, I'm a safety on kind of guy and plant my flag with several others in this thread for the same reasons that they've already extolled, VMI covered it pretty well in his previous posts.

I carry a Glock 19 every day in an IWB holster. It has 3 passive safeties along with residing in my holster approximately 99% of the time. Whenever it's out of my holster I observe the 4 safety rules and do not have my finger on the trigger, unless I'm intentionally pressing it to the rear.

Your "passive" safeties are a ------ joke. Leaving you with ONE. Practice it well my friend. Practice it well.

Again, do you disagree with post #81 ? As for the rest of my posts, what dont you get? Let me know, I'll clue you in.

LOKNLOD
11-16-2011, 02:19 AM
Bad analogy, rollcages and 5 point harnesses= faster. Just ask Todd, he went to Porsch-aa school

Because you then rely on the safety, you rely on the airbag, you rely on the rollcage, you rely on the harness when you push the issue to save your ass. Sadly this stuff fails sometimes.

There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. <Straight outta the guys keyboard (glockmaster and FWIW he's been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so he has a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community.< Gospel right)

Apparently cops are reckless and negligent, you pick whichever term you like better.. Who'd a thought. He said it, not me. Flame suit on

As for slopping around and banging off of gear. I guess it would be hot/safety on (I contradict myself here because safeties fail) or empty chamber safety off. Both ways skipping a step (empty/safe on). Either way is up to you.

I may be out of my league but, it seems like stupid police politics to me.

I disagree, the analogy stands -- the extra gear in the car allows for a higher margin of safety while performing more advanced maneuvers in a controlled manner closer to the limits of both driver skill and machine capability. Reckless may mean faster, but faster does not automatically mean reckless. A higher level of driving carries higher consequences should something go wrong, mentally or mechanically, and that safety equipment is in place to provide an additional layer of protection to mitigate the risks associated with the situation.

The safety on an AR is similar in that it provides an extra layer of protection against unintentionally discharging the weapon. It is secondary/supplemental to good weapons handling. Using the safety doesn't mean that it is being relied on as the primary or only way to keep the gun from being fired. Although... If folks are as inept as you imply, no amount of trigger discipline will matter, and it sounds like a mechanical safety is all the more important.

Your thesis come across as insisting that people are so incompetent and undisciplined that having a safety causes them to abandon all weapons handling skills, so they should stop using the safety and just rely on being competent and disciplined (which they seem to be inherently incapable of doing).

As for the other comments... Many people are reckless and negligent, and all cops are people, so no surprise there is probably plenty of overlap in those two sets. Making potentially inflammatory comments about LE, regardless of truthfulness, is probably going to turn out counterproductive to successfully arguing the point you are trying to make. And I'm not a cop, nor am I giving them a free pass.

DocGKR
11-16-2011, 04:45 AM
P30shtr--You are wrong.

Here is a sample of top level instructors who all have one thing in common: Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Chris Costa, Scotty Reitz, Kyle Defoor, Mike Pannone, Jason Falla, Jim Smith, Tom DiTomosso, Mike Lamb, Don Lazzarini, and the guys at TigerSwan--they all mandate safety use. Maybe they know something you don't...

P30shtr
11-16-2011, 11:28 AM
P30shtr--You are wrong.

Here is a sample of top level instructors who all have one thing in common: Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Chris Costa, Scotty Reitz, Kyle Defoor, Mike Pannone, Jason Falla, Jim Smith, Tom DiTomosso, Mike Lamb, Don Lazzarini, and the guys at TigerSwan--they all mandate safety use. Maybe they know something you don't...

Thats good, so do I. How do any of those guys come into play? I never said lets all run around and be unsafe. I guess my point was empty chamber/safety on, seems kinda silly or overkill.

Another I guess was how the "police" glockmaster was referring to, rely on safeties to not shoot themselves, bad guys and, innocents on accident. Almost making it sound like it was the guns fault because it didnt have a safety rather than the guy behind the weapon. Maybe if some of these guys hadnt of had their finger where it didnt belong when it didnt belong there the numbers might be a little lower for these ND's he refers too. But now that they have these fancy new safeties (to rely on) everything will be all better. I'll give you the "while the weapon is slung" part. Cant argue there.

Which kinda brings me to the car stuff. Relying on safeties instead of proper trigger discipline is like relying on air bags and seatbelts while behind the wheel, dont do it. Can they all help, sure they can. I never said they couldnt. Just dont rely on them as the be all end all.

And then theres those "passive safeties". They worked out pretty good for the guy in N.Va recently huh. (my condolences to the guy, his fam, and any of you who may have known him. I know some of you are from that area)

Hope this cleared it up a little

LittleLebowski
11-16-2011, 11:39 AM
Our SMEs have the title for a reason. Not given, earned.

Let's forcefully nudge this back to reasoned, civil discussion.

Jay Cunningham
11-16-2011, 11:40 AM
Let's start a separate discussion if we must. Let's also stay within our lane of experience when speaking on a subject or topic. If you are inexperienced but have an opinion, simply state that. If you are inexperienced and have an opinion and are challenging someone experienced with an educated opinion, do so in the most respectful possible manner.

JHC
11-16-2011, 01:06 PM
Mine (HD carbine) is a BCM lightweight profile 14.5" midlength upper on an LMT lower with standard mil trigger and Vltor stock. Fixed FSB. Daniel Defense fixed rear. Surefire G2 mounted up on the FSB. Magpul handguards. Lemme see . . . no, that's about it.

Jay Cunningham
11-16-2011, 01:17 PM
Mine (HD carbine) is a BCM lightweight profile 14.5" midlength upper on an LMT lower with standard mil trigger and Vltor stock. Fixed FSB. Daniel Defense fixed rear. Surefire G2 mounted up on the FSB. Magpul handguards. Lemme see . . . no, that's about it.

Cool story, bro...

We want to hear the "why" behind what you chose, not just a list of components. :)

Zhurdan
11-16-2011, 01:35 PM
I keep my Noveske 10.5" chambered, safety on right next to the bed at night. The ear pro in the picture is also next to the bed. The rifle goes in the gun safe on the way out the door to work, comes back out when I get home from work.

Wears a surefire light and an Eotech. An Aimpoint will replace it as soon as the money magically appears in my bank account.
30 rnd Pmag in the gun and one on the night stand. If someone is breaking in, I'm not going anywhere to find them as my wife and I will most likely be together in the bedroom and we have no kids. Near perfect set up if someone tries to come into the room, angle wise. If they want my TV, they can have it, if they want my wife... well, they'll have to eat some 75g Hornady first.

*ETA* I'd also like to point out that the position of our bedroom allows for about 180 degrees of swing where there's no other human beings sleeping in adjacent homes, most of it is walls, but it's nice knowing that if someone tries to shoot thru a wall into the bedroom, there's nothing behind them that I'd hit. (yes, I realize firing thru a wall isn't a good idea, but I'd imagine anyone would do so rather than take incoming rounds and just sitting there hoping they don't get lucky.) *ETA*

Why a 10.5"? To start with... wanted one. Now, it's pretty much all I shoot and I'm proficient with it.

Carry pistol also resides on the night stand at night with a spare magazine and the cell phones.

In the event I had to move from the bedroom, I like it because it's shorter and easily maneuverable indoors. It's set up ambi, and I can shoot darn near as well off the left shoulder as I can the right. Been putting a lot of work into that over the past year.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Magpul%20class/pueblo4-4-2010-55.jpg

JHC
11-16-2011, 07:53 PM
Cool story, bro...

We want to hear the "why" behind what you chose, not just a list of components. :)

LOL - I forgot about that so many months and pages ago of safety debates. Thanks.

No special reason for the middie vs carbine for me. Big thing was to go light for this one and I got a shot at this upper when BCM reported them in stock last Spring. They lasted a couple of hours I heard. 14.5" with perm flash hider to make 16.1 was short enough for me. I think the SBRs and insanely cool and practical for this sort of thing but I don't want to deal with the trust, ATF, stamp etc.

For most of the rest of it, my goal was to keep it very simple, troublefree, low maint and light. Hence irons, SF light and mil trigger.

Fixed FSB just for the bulletproof simplicity of it.

DD fixed rear is a fine sight. Stuck with irons for now as Aiimpoint dots distort like crazy to my eyes esp bino- vision and I judged I didn't need it up this close in a non-warzone sort of HD scenario. Eotechs seem to distort less but I am not ready to spend that much on them until more of their critics report they are tougher and more consistently reliable.

I've done some 3 gun and action rifle with irons only and up close, I feel pretty good about speed and hits. I don't argue that an RDS isn't faster, just that until I find one my eyes like, I'm pretty quick with the irons. And other than just trying them out on the range, I have little experience with RDS on rifles anyway.

Carried (vehicle) or stowed (home), it's loaded magazine, chamber empty, safety on.

Ammo is pretty much the same as mentioned in the OP.

fuse
11-17-2011, 01:33 AM
Mine (HD carbine) is a BCM lightweight profile 14.5" midlength upper on an LMT lower with standard mil trigger and Vltor stock. Fixed FSB. Daniel Defense fixed rear. Surefire G2 mounted up on the FSB. Magpul handguards. Lemme see . . . no, that's about it.

What buffer you rocking on the 14.5 middy?

Tamara
11-17-2011, 07:09 AM
The previous owner of the house in which I live was a retired MCSD deputy; the house has steel doors front and rear with quality deatbolts and ornamental steel grille security doors outside those, also deadbolted, which means that whoever wants to get in is going to need to use a towchain and truck or the jaws of life before they even get to use the breaching rounds. Oh, I suppose teams of ninjas could fast-rope in and break-and-rake the bedroom window, but I try and lead the kind of lifestyle that, short of grievous map-reading errors, doesn't attract SWAT callouts.

Therefore my house carbine is a distinctly secondary weapon, placed somewhere where I could go get it if I needed it, but not all ready to grab at a second's notice.

It's stored in such a way that assumes I will have a moment to put it into whatever condition is appropriate for the scenario: The Aimpoint is off, the full magazine is in the well and and the chamber is empty, the safety is on, and the single-point is coiled into a tight little ball secured with a rubber band.

If rioters come storming across 52nd Street or the Killer Space Robots land, I reckon I'll have time to make the carbine ready. Otherwise I'll be using the pistol to hand.

JHC
11-17-2011, 12:32 PM
What buffer you rocking on the 14.5 middy?

. . . . . . carbine. :o

Odin Bravo One
11-17-2011, 05:38 PM
I'm a big fan of simplicity in a HD gun. I keep mine simple, with everything I need, nothing I don't.

8", 10.5", and 11.5" barrels, suppressor, light, VFG, Aimpoint. I leave the Aimpoint on, since the batteries are cheap, and last for 5000 hours. I replace the batteries in all of my HD electronics every Jan. 1 while watching the games. I have Troy sights installed, and leave the front sight always locked in the deployed position. That enables me to use the tube of my Aimpoint as a large makeshift rear sight in the event the Aimpoint fails. This set up has proven combat accurate for me out to 50 yards.

I don't get too wrapped into having a particular barrel, or a Redi-Mag, or this brand name rail, or whatever. So long as the gun works, the gun is good in my opinion. Obviously some makers are better than others, but once we get down to business, so long as it comes from a major player with a good history of quality products, it's good enough for me. Everyone has their own preferences. I like DD products, so I am pretty sure that is what rail is on most of my guns, but I couldn't swear to it. Might be LaRue in there somewhere, and LWRC proprietary rails. Grips and shit like that is all personal preference. I like MagPul and Tango Down, but I am comfortable with USGI, and have a few modified USGI grips installed on various carbines.

I elect not to have a Redi-Mag, or mag clamp, mostly because I don't like them, but I also don't have a room in my house that is large enough and has enough distance to clear a malfunction or reload before I am in a fist fight. I also don't anticipate the need for more than 30 rounds to defend my home. So having an extra magazine hanging off my gun just adds more weight and bulk for no reason. If I need to settle in for a last stand, there are plenty of loaded mags on standby, but not hanging off the gun itself. I elect to use a suppressor for flash suppression, as well as to protect what I anticipate to be, unprotected ears as I don't sleep or wander my house with ear pro in. I have a mini-VFG, as that is the method I prefer to use for shooting. I use a stock trigger.

I keep mine condition 3, hammer down, safety obviously off, in a location that is immediately accessible. Then it's simply rack and roll.

Tamara
11-17-2011, 07:03 PM
8", 10.5", and 11.5" barrels, suppressor, light, VFG, Aimpoint. I leave the Aimpoint on, since the batteries are cheap, and last for 5000 hours. I replace the batteries in all of my HD electronics every Jan. 1 while watching the games.

I do the battery swap twice a year, when I change the clocks and replace the smoke detector batteries.

I don't leave the optic on because I'm still running a CompM2, partying like it's 1999. :o

nwhpfan
11-17-2011, 07:13 PM
How would parents have a defensive carbine ready to go quickly whilst ensuring it is secured from small hands?

BINGO!!!!! And it's not just the challenges of children. It's what kind of home do you have. Small apartment; big home in the country. Two story, 3, 1? Where are the potential entrance points of bad guys; how much time would you have. Would you have to go down the hall to protect your children, or are they on a different floor. Many, many, many considerations that go far beyond simple debates of what kind of optic. Your "home" doesn't look like the others so you'll have to evaluate the uniqueness of your own personal environment first. Personally; I live in a neighborhood home with my children across the hall. As a matter of safety my shotguns and rifles are in the safe (in the office) and my other rifle is in my car in the garage. My everyday handgun is either on my hip or on the fridge. I have a small safe in my bedroom closet with an unloaded Browning Hi Power, fully loaded 15 round Mec-Gar magazine, and very bright yet inexpensive "Coast" or some brand flashlight-so that's what I use. If I didn't have to worry about kids; I'd likely have something more exciting in my room.

Al T.
11-17-2011, 09:37 PM
If I didn't have to worry about kids; I'd likely have something more exciting in my (bed) room.

Too late. ;)



:D

vaglocker
11-23-2011, 10:55 AM
For that last year or so I've been toying with the idea of a super short (7.5 - 9 inch) 9mm AR with a suppressor as my HD carbine. Lone Wolf makes a lower that accepts Glock mags which looks pretty interesting. At any rate, I have a 5.56 carbine now, but my thinking is that even suppressed the 5.56 would still be pretty loud indoors and the flash is pretty substantial. Pistol caliber penetration issues on drywall etc.. aside what is the general consensus on something like this?

Zhurdan
11-23-2011, 11:23 AM
While I understand the importance of our hearing, the last thing that will be a concern of mine if someone is forcing entry into my home is my hearing. I want the most capable weapon available. I do keep ear pro by the gun in the bedroom, but again, that is a secondary concern because if I'm dead, my hearing won't work anyways.

Odin Bravo One
11-23-2011, 11:36 AM
I don't think I qualify as a "consensus".....

9mm carbine conversions are pretty unreliable when compared to their 5.56 counterparts. They are fun to shoot, plink with, etc., and can be useful in introducing younger shooters or those intimidated by something larger for whatever reason. There is a "neat" factor to it, sure. Right up until it starts having issues. And I have yet to shoot one that did not have issues. There is also very little in terms of commonality of parts among the makers. Pretty much every manufacturer of a pistol caliber AR uses their own proprietary parts, magazines, magazine blocks, etc., making maintenance more difficult than it should be.

Not something I would put in the "for defensive use" category.

A properly suppressed 5.56 on the other hand, with quality defensive ammunition (TAP, BH Mk262, Federal LE, etc) has very little muzzle flash, is quiet enough to shoot without hearing protection, even indoors, and doesn't have nearly the over-penetration issues some would have us believe.

Again, I am not the consensus, just one dude.

DocGKR
11-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Concur fully with Sean M on the utility of 9 mm carbines...

Jay Cunningham
11-23-2011, 11:59 AM
Out of curiosity, and possibly for future reference, what constitutes "properly suppressed"? Thanks.

Not Sean, but I would say a properly-sized can (internal volume) in conjunction with barrel length, and a gas system with proper port size and buffer weight.

Odin Bravo One
11-23-2011, 01:29 PM
Jay as usual hit the mark.

To expand a bit, other things to consider in addition to proper port sizes, buffer weights, barrel length, etc., are the materials used, method of manufacture, and method of attachment. Other things to consider are barrel twist, and bullet you intend to use. That matters to ensure the projectile is properly stabilized prior to leaving the muzzle. Over stable, or under stable bullets, or improper fit of suppressor to weapon can lead to baffle strikes, which in turn tend to lead to catastrophic failure of the suppressor. Don't worry, you will know when that happens. It will be quite obvious.

"Billy Joe Bob's Custom SOPMOD Suppressor's, Lawn Care, and take out BBQ" is probably not the manufacturer you want to buy from. Understand that there is a difference between hobby suppressors, and defensive/offensive/serious use suppressors and it goes beyond price tag and name brands. You will pay more for certain brands, but price tag alone does not equate to suppressor quality.

The guys building the top quality suppressors that are a part of "properly suppressed" are building suppressors with the intent of TSR; Total Signature Reduction, and total reliability, and compatibility with the system(s) for which they were designed. They are looking at the total package, not just CDI Factor, or having a suppressor to say we have a suppressor. This includes longevity of the suppressor, ability to stay attached to the weapon when it matters (like say for example....you have to save your life with it?), and minimal zero/POI shift, as well as a simple maintenance schedule. Generally speaking, setting your rifle/carbine up for suppressed firing requires using the same manufacturer's method of attachment. Do not mix and match this. The guys designing & building the suppressor are the same guys doing the initial/function testing, and they know how to make those parts compatible. The big guys also have lots of independent organizations conducting T&E, and providing valuable feedback and input. The good builders are listening to the end users, and making adjustments/improvement where necessary and possible.

More years ago than I care to admit, a certain manufacturer of HSLD accessories and equipment had developed what I would call the BEST flash hider at the time. When asked to make it compatible with a specific brand of suppressor, they made some design changes, and BAM!!! The suppressor fit the flash hider. Heaven. Right up until BAM!!! Suppressors started ending up down range due to failures in both the suppressor, and flash hider.

Things to not pay attention to when selecting a suppressor.......Db reduction claims. There is ZERO standard for measuring this in that industry. Don't pick one suppressor over another because one reduces 32Db, and the one you want reduces 38Db. It is called marketing. Or bullshit, whichever you prefer. They can claim whatever they want, so long as it is true enough, based one whatever method or criteria they are using. But no one is using the same criteria.

Which method of attachment,, or brand, or model is best are questions I see asked often. I don't know. What do you want to do with it? If seriously considering a suppressor for life saving purposes, research is key. Be wary of forum information and internet experts............present company included.

There are some books out there that discuss in detail many of the things I have glossed over in this post. It is worth spending the $30-$80 on books written by people much more knowledgeable than I am on such things before forking out that kind of money + the $200, plus the wait, plus the BS paperwork. I bought some suppressors based on prior experience with a particular brand, model, method of attachment, and performance. I bought others based solely on the fact they were at a price point I liked. Different suppressors, on different weapon systems, for different purposes, with different objectives, and different measurements of what I considered to be "acceptable performance".

Did that help? Or just make it worse?

DocGKR
11-23-2011, 03:01 PM
I've been around a quite a few OPS Inc, Gemtech, Surefire, and AAC suppressors that in general worked very well. There have also been some nearby agencies that purchased from other less well known vendors and ended-up with huge headaches...

Jay Cunningham
11-26-2011, 05:34 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315514_293425767354878_123772284320228_964226_1605 951892_n.jpg

BCM 11.5" outfitted for the home defense role.

Odin Bravo One
11-26-2011, 06:59 PM
Suppressed 5.56 HD packages. Same size and/or smaller than 9mm carbine options, more effective in terms of performance and reliability.

8" LWRC PSD
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/2LWRCPSDSuppressed.jpg


10.3" SCAR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/4SCARAOR1Suppressed.jpg


11.5" Noveske w/ Switchblock, allows you to switch gas port sizes for reliable suppressed and un-suppressed shooting.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/CQBRwithOPSInc.jpg

LittleLebowski
11-26-2011, 09:42 PM
Your thoughts on the LWRC, Sean? Feel free to start another thread if you like.

JDM
11-26-2011, 09:44 PM
Your thoughts on the LWRC, Sean? Feel free to start another thread if you like.

I'm curious about this as well.

seabiscuit
11-26-2011, 10:02 PM
This may be a silly question, but if I get a short and/or suppressed rifle in one state and the PCS to another, is that rifle still legal?

Probably not. How do you military guys deal with this?

JDM
11-26-2011, 10:21 PM
Are there any documented instances of an NFA carbine/suppressor being used in a self defense shooting?

Any case law?

Odin Bravo One
11-26-2011, 11:36 PM
This may be a silly question, but if I get a short and/or suppressed rifle in one state and the PCS to another, is that rifle still legal?

Probably not. How do you military guys deal with this?

Revocable Trust or LLC.

Of course, it has to be legal where you are going. And you have to set yourself up by making clear your desires to those who write your orders. But if it is legal in the state you are PCSing to, it's a simple form to send to the BATF&E to advise them of change of venue, and a quick trip to the attorney to get your Trust/LLC squared up for the new location.

If there is NO WAY out of shitty orders to the worst duty stations in the world (i.e., California), you can add people to your Trust or LLC as being lawful beneficiaries/executors and simply leave them behind for the time being. Then look for the first ticket back to free America.

At the same time, if you plan/expect to have more than one or two NFA items, I would suggest not ever owning one personally. You are much better off, with many more legal options if your Trust or LLC own them. Of everything in my inventory, I only own the Noveske Rifle. Everything else is owned by my Trust. It keeps many more legal options open for who can babysit them while I am gone, use one if it became necessary, who gets them if I get shot in the face, etc. It also makes purchases much easier, with less red tape and BS. I may even pay the $200 again just to have that one rifle added to the Trust. It is that worth it.

I don't know of any case law of using NFA stuff in the US. But I don't follow it much either. At the time I initiated my Trust (several years ago) my attorney mentioned that he has consulted on a few cases of NFA weapons, but did not elaborate on it at all, so I don't know if it was HD use, Ownership issues, transfer issues, or what.

jlw
01-02-2012, 07:50 PM
Late to the party on this one:

As to the question about pistols being carried with the safety off while loaded, unless it is a SA (cocke & locked) all of them unless you are a follower of the Ayoob. I carried a 4006 for my first seven years on duty. Until your holster got very, very broken in, you couldn't fasten the retention snaps with the safety engaged. The 12 pound DA pull was along the lines of a revolver, and cops toted them for years loaded and with no safety...

As to cruiser ready, while some use that term in this area, the primary term here is "gunbox ready", which is pretty much the same thing. We are in the safety on camp, but others are not.

As to the carbine setup, I just don't care for electronic sights for the most part. I'm not fond of batteries and on/off switches to get the sights working, but it is primarily I personally have trouble seeing red dot sights. My setup is iron sights. My immediate action weapon for those bumps in the night is an 870P loaded to my definition of gunbox ready. My rifle is a leveraction .30-30. I do carry one of those newfangled autoloading rifles whilst on duty though.

I use 20 round Pmags when I break out an AR although I do have some 30 rounders and some other brands, I have never had issue with them, but I readily concede that they haven't seen heavy duty either.

AzDak
01-05-2012, 05:02 PM
Just some food for thought...

I've been working with my mom to figure out something she could handle. She's a slight woman, now almost 70, who lives alone in a larger city in Texas. While she's still a farm girl at heart, she just isn't physically strong anymore. I've taken her to the range and while she was able to shoot a 38 wheel gun, a variety of glocks, etc, she just doesn't have the hand strength to run a pistol with any degree of confidence or ability. I've had her handle a youth 20g, still too big. ARs, even an 16" just were too awkward given her size and strength.

So a few weekends ago, I had her try a m1 carbine I'd recently picked up. It shouldered well for her. The action was loose enough she could operate the bolt easily. I haven't found a way to get her a mounted light yet, but I think we have a winner.

Proof will be on her next visit when we get her out to the range. .30 carbine may not be the best, but with soft points, it's still a whole lot better than harsh language and rude gestures.

Jay Cunningham
01-05-2012, 05:03 PM
Check out UltiMak for a mounting solution.

JodyH
01-05-2012, 10:17 PM
Using the above criteria as a guide, an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen may look something like this:


barrel length 10″ to 12.5″

mil-spec “NATO” chamber and M4 feed ramps

1/8 or 1/7 twist rate

fixed compact or adjustable length stock

20 round magazines

75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, or 77 gr SMK OTM ammunition

dedicated weapon light (examples: SF X300, M300A Scout, Insight WX150 LED, Streamlight TLR)

compact, lightweight suppressor (examples: SF Mini, Gemtech TREK, AAC RANGER 2)

lightweight rail, preferably partially enclosing suppressor and/or mounting a handstop to protect from burns

Boonie Packer Redi-Mag (or BFG Redi-Mod)

fixed front sight and fixed or deployed folding rear sight

optical sight (examples: Aimpoint Micro T-1, EOTech XPS) or visible laser (example: Insight AN/PEQ-5 CVL)

quick deploying two point sling (VCAS w/QD mounts, VTAC-PS Attachment Sling)

BTDT

I suggest adding a tritium front sight to your list as well, in case the red dot is dead and it's dark.

10.5" LMT/Mega with AAC Ranger 2 suppressor, Aimpoint Comp M2 4moa, tritium front sight post, TLR-1 on the handguard, Spectre single point quick attach sling, loaded with Black Hills MK262 Mod 1 77gr. 5.56

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMAG0013.jpg

jar
01-06-2012, 06:25 PM
Proof will be on her next visit when we get her out to the range. .30 carbine may not be the best, but with soft points, it's still a whole lot better than harsh language and rude gestures.

I think the M1 Carbine is vastly underrated as a home defense gun. The only reason I wouldn't use mine as such is that it's older than your mother and has some reliability issues. When picking parts for my home defense AR, the light weight and easy handling of my M1 was a design goal.

DocGKR
01-06-2012, 08:00 PM
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956

Ed L
01-06-2012, 08:04 PM
I think the M-1 carbine is a great gun--especially for someone with more limited physical capacity as you described. It is lightweight, handles easily and is easy to shoot.

However, my own experience with 3 different milsurp M-1 Carbines is that all had issues running softpoints & hollowpoints reliably. This includes Remington, Speer, Corbon, and Privi Partisan Soft points or hollowpoints.

Sometimes I might get a failure to feed one shot every 5 or 10 rounds; other times it might be one shot in 60 rounds. This happened with 3 different guns and 6-8 different magazines, including some that were bought new in the wrapper, some modern korean made mags that were new in the wrapper. The guns all functioned reliably with full metal jacket rounds.

According to the gunsmiths I spoke to who specialize in the M-1 Carbine at places like Fulton armory, most M-1 carbines are not reliable with softpoints or hollowpoints.

It is important to test the gun your mother is using with the exact magazines that she would be using with the hollowpoints to make sure that they are 100% reliable. I would want to run at the very least 4 magazines of softpoints through each mag.

In my own experience I concluded that the M1 carbines were not reliable enough with hollowpoints, so I myself would rely on FMJ rounds. Even though they don't have the terminal effects of a hollowpoint they are more reliable.


Proof will be on her next visit when we get her out to the range. .30 carbine may not be the best, but with soft points, it's still a whole lot better than harsh language and rude gestures.

Jay Cunningham
08-10-2012, 04:14 PM
I just posted these pics in another thread asking about HD carbine and ready condition, but I thought it would be good to tack them here as well for general discussion:

951 952

JDM
08-10-2012, 04:17 PM
Why an empty magazine well?

Jay Cunningham
08-10-2012, 06:29 PM
Why an empty magazine well?

Kids.

:cool:

There's a lot of options for condition... and a lot of good justifications and an equal number of good refutations. At some point you need to make a decision and move on.

The chamber block buys me a tiny bit and my wife a lot of (mostly imaginary) peace of mind. I keep a spare 20 round magazine in the nightstand and have no doubt I can get the gun into Condition 1 in less than five seconds.

JDM
08-10-2012, 07:52 PM
Very good. Thanks.

Jason F
08-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Kids.

:cool:

There's a lot of options for condition... and a lot of good justifications and an equal number of good refutations. At some point you need to make a decision and move on.

The chamber block buys me a tiny bit and my wife a lot of (mostly imaginary) peace of mind. I keep a spare 20 round magazine in the nightstand and have no doubt I can get the gun into Condition 1 in less than five seconds.

Keeping that mag in a nightstand safe Jay? Just curious, because I like your solution but like yourself I've got two rugrats running around that I have to be aware of.

Jay Cunningham
08-11-2012, 09:27 PM
Keeping that mag in a nightstand safe Jay? Just curious, because I like your solution but like yourself I've got two rugrats running around that I have to be aware of.

No, the mag's in a drawer along with a flashlight and a cell phone. At night the gun is beside me against the wall by my bed. In daytime it's locked up but accessible reasonably quickly. Both kids are in cribs still so they won't be wandering out at night. At some point in the future I may need to again reevaluate.

Jason F
08-11-2012, 09:32 PM
No, the mag's in a drawer along with a flashlight and a cell phone. At night the gun is beside me against the wall by my bed. In daytime it's locked up but accessible reasonably quickly. Both kids are in cribs still so they won't be wandering out at night. At some point in the future I may need to again reevaluate.

Copy that. My little dudes are 4.5 & 3, so they have the ability to roam at night (though they never have). I like the idea though, of keeping it bedside. I may have to consider that.


I didn't see you spec out that rifle (or I missed it). Is that a DD mk12?

Jay Cunningham
08-11-2012, 09:52 PM
It's a Daniel Defense Mk18 upper which means a 10.3" barrel. Primary sighting systems are an Aimpoint Micro and DBAL-I2 (Class IIIa visible green laser) with MagPul MBUS as backup sights. WML is a SF 300A Mini Scout and the 20 round Lancer AWM magazines are loaded with 75 gr TAP.

JDM
08-11-2012, 10:12 PM
No suppressor, Jay?

Jay Cunningham
08-11-2012, 10:46 PM
No suppressor, Jay?

I went back and forth on that a lot.

I decided no, maneuverability and balance were more important to me. YMMV.

rob_s
08-12-2012, 08:35 AM
I went back and forth on that a lot.

I decided no, maneuverability and balance were more important to me. YMMV.

That, and only being responsible for myself in the house now, is what made me go back to a pistol.

Even when I had others to protect, I saw the rifle as the hunker-down gun, so the can was less of an issue. If I was going to keep a rifle readily accessible again and with my current lack of family I'd probably try to keep it as light and short as possible.

BWT
08-12-2012, 06:37 PM
I had an ear plug fall out in a Carbine match, and I think I shot 4 rounds at targets about point blank in a high bermed area, etc.

I shot the last two targets before realizing it had come loose, I just realized it was louder. I did not have any ringing.

I'm thinking about going with a BCM 11.5'' SBR here soon. Trust route. I'd keep it near the bed, weapon mounted light. Safety on, chamber empty, bolt forward, 28 rounds in a 30 round magazine. I keep the BUIS deployed, I have a cheap bushnell scope turned off. (Battery will die)

I was driving from Charleston back to Greenville today, and Palmetto State Armory was closed, I was going to impulse buy an Aimpoint PRO.

I have a 16'' Midlength BCM AR, that I keep in the safe, in that condition. I just keep a glock 17 loaded with 124 gr +P HST's with a spare magazine nearby.

As a side note, Rob or Jay, you might know, is BCM planning on releasing Factory SBR's again anytime soon? I'm about to just go and buy a Complete lower. I've been happy with the quality and performance of my Midlength, I figure, stick with what you know to be quality.

Sorry for thread drift.

Jay Cunningham
08-12-2012, 06:43 PM
If you check their website it looks that way, but they certainly aren't available yet.

JodyH
08-12-2012, 06:58 PM
I went back and forth on that a lot.

I decided no, maneuverability and balance were more important to me. YMMV.
I find the suppressed 10" balances better than "naked".
Even with a suppressor my 10" is shorter than a 16" AR and maneuverability is not really an issue.
Having shot a 10" in a hallway without ear-pro, a suppressor is mandatory on a house gun IMO.

seabiscuit
08-28-2012, 01:12 PM
So following my own guidelines, here is the current incarnation of my HD carbine:

65

In my original post, I wrote about a "dedicated weaponlight" but I've come to appreciate the utility of having an HH light like a G2L in a QD mount. This gives some additional versatility... I'm considering attaching a tourniquet or even a subcompact BOK to the sling.

Gonna back things up a bit, but what kind of mount is that?

Jay Cunningham
08-28-2012, 01:31 PM
That particular one is an ADM/VLTOR throw lever.

Jay Cunningham
11-13-2014, 12:31 PM
Necrobump but here's what I've settled on for my needs:


BCM LW 11.5" upper
10" KMR handguard
BCM BCG
BCM GF Comp
BCM GF Ambi CH
Troy folding BUIS
Trijicon SRS
SF M300 Mini Scout light
BCM lower
GF Mod 3 grip
Geissele S3G trigger
VLTOR iMod stock
VLTOR A5SR Receiver Ext.
A5H4 buffer (6.83oz)
BAD-ASS ambi safety
SOB sling

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10678491_928561427157235_2106495349664945566_n.jpg ?oh=0c0553e906dbf8b3a20cbf53ff146d71&oe=54DF144C&__gda__=1423492902_16ba472438f22a1a75801235c3260fd 9

JodyH
11-13-2014, 06:55 PM
I've tweaked my home carbine as well.
Mega Machine SBR, Geissele SD3G flat face trigger (it's what I have in all my AR's)
12.5" BCM upper with a AAC Ranger 2 suppressor.
Tritium front sight post, Daniel Defense fixed rear sight.
Surefire Mini-Scout light with remote on Magpul MOE furniture
Spectre single point quick release sling
20 round PMAG

KISS home carbine

Jay Cunningham
11-14-2014, 12:07 AM
Nice trigger.

LittleLebowski
11-16-2014, 07:15 PM
Necrobump but here's what I've settled on for my needs:


BCM LW 11.5" upper
10" KMR handguard
BCM BCG
BCM GF Comp
BCM GF Ambi CH
Troy folding BUIS
Trijicon SRS
SF M300 Mini Scout light
BCM lower
GF Mod 3 grip
Geissele S3G trigger
VLTOR iMod stock
VLTOR A5SR Receiver Ext.
A5H4 buffer (6.83oz)
BAD-ASS ambi safety
SOB sling


We're very close on configuration choices. Well, pretty close. Maybe kinda. We could probably still hang out.

BCM 11.5 lightweight barrel with 10" KMR
BCM BCG
stock M16A2 birdcage flash hider
Surefire X300U (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00999CBJ6/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00999CBJ6&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) at 12 o'clock
BAC-CASS short throw ambi safety (http://shop.battlearmsdevelopment.com/BAD-CASS-SA-ST-COMBAT-AMBI-SAFETY-SELECTOR-SHORT-THROW-50-BAD-CASS-SA-ST.htm)
SIG pistol brace
KAC iron sights
Aimpoint H1 2MOA, Larue tall mount
Padded Blue Force sling (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0074YM87I/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0074YM87I&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20)
BCM Mod3 grip (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUN-FIGHTER-s-Grip-GFG-Mod-3-fde-p/bcm-gfg-mod-3-fde.htm)
H buffer
ALG ACT (http://algdefense.com/alg-combat-trigger-act.html) trigger because I like clean mil spec triggers
BCM Gunfighter Ambi charging handle (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-GFH-Mod-44-AMBI-p/bcm-gfh-mod-a44-556ambi.htm)

Eats steel cased ammo like candy.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/1912008_739691302782777_1094539116488705860_o_zps3 66d48b0.jpg

LSP972
11-17-2014, 02:11 PM
Jay, I too prefer 20 round magazines.

How are you keeping the second magazine on the gun? Not a fan of the Redi-Mag thing; too heavy and bulky for my tastes. I remember seeing some kind of pouch, years ago, that held a 20 rounder reasonably securely... but it keyed off of the FSB and therefore would get in the way of my white light set-up, so...

I only break out a carbine for hurricanes and other times when the power is out, because of the white light and optic; normally, my HD long gun is a Beretta A390 gauge chopped off at both ends (but still legal). And every time I do break out the carbine, I tell myself I gotta figure out a way to mount an extra mag. I've tried a few of the stock-mounted pouches, but they always seem to get in the way as well. Any ideas (from anyone) would be appreciated.

And FWIW, I keep the carbine "cocked and locked"; round chambered, safety engaged. By my "policy", the fact that I felt the need to have the carbine available means the threat potential is heightened. No chirruns, small or otherwise, to worry about.

I would dearly love to have an SBR with a short SureFire can, but I just cannot see the pros vs the cons of getting on that Class III federal radar scope. So I get by with stock Colts (6520, 6720, 6920), H-1s, and TLR-1s.

.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-2014, 02:16 PM
Eats steel cased ammo like candy.

Mine eats 55 gr. Wolf like candy too... and I've got the heaviest recoil buffer known to man in it.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-2014, 02:31 PM
Jay, I too prefer 20 round magazines.

How are you keeping the second magazine on the gun? Not a fan of the Redi-Mag thing; too heavy and bulky for my tastes. I remember seeing some kind of pouch, years ago, that held a 20 rounder reasonably securely... but it keyed off of the FSB and therefore would get in the way of my white light set-up, so...

I only break out a carbine for hurricanes and other times when the power is out, because of the white light and optic; normally, my HD long gun is a Beretta A390 gauge chopped off at both ends (but still legal). And every time I do break out the carbine, I tell myself I gotta figure out a way to mount an extra mag. I've tried a few of the stock-mounted pouches, but they always seem to get in the way as well. Any ideas (from anyone) would be appreciated.

And FWIW, I keep the carbine "cocked and locked"; round chambered, safety engaged. By my "policy", the fact that I felt the need to have the carbine available means the threat potential is heightened. No chirruns, small or otherwise, to worry about.

I would dearly love to have an SBR with a short SureFire can, but I just cannot see the pros vs the cons of getting on that Class III federal radar scope. So I get by with stock Colts (6520, 6720, 6920), H-1s, and TLR-1s.

.

My original post is a bit dated. I'm using a single 30 round magazine now.

These (http://www.cryeprecision.com/P-ACCMC100000/Magclip%e2%84%a2-(set-Of-3)) are interesting.

Caboose
11-18-2014, 05:04 PM
Hey LL,
Have you been using that pistol brace for a while now? If so, what are your long term opinions on it? The Mrs. is on the verge of building a LW carbine and likes the idea of a braced 10-12 inch AR. She's 5' 4", 125lbs, with short arms, and doesn't care much for how long my 16" BCM is.

LSP972
11-19-2014, 08:03 AM
My original post is a bit dated. I'm using a single 30 round magazine now.

These (http://www.cryeprecision.com/P-ACCMC100000/Magclip%e2%84%a2-(set-Of-3)) are interesting.

Okay, thanks.

.

Dagga Boy
11-19-2014, 12:24 PM
I run a 16" Piston gun as my HD and urban use carbine. It has a sling (Wilderness Giles sling), a 600 lumen Surefire light with a simple push button, and an Aimpoint Comp M4 red dot (10 year battery life with a AA lithium, and they last longer when left on, so it is). It is kept in a condition with a 42 round polymer translucent magazine in place (down loaded by two), no round in the chamber, hammer down and the safety on........wait, you can't do that with yours:confused:..........oh yeah, it is 27" long and when run indoors I can run it shorter than a pistol........

NerdAlert
11-19-2014, 01:27 PM
I run a 16" Piston gun as my HD and urban use carbine. It has a sling (Wilderness Giles sling), a 600 lumen Surefire light with a simple push button, and an Aimpoint Comp M4 red dot (10 year battery life with a AA lithium, and they last longer when left on, so it is). It is kept in a condition with a 42 round polymer translucent magazine in place (down loaded by two), no round in the chamber, hammer down and the safety on........wait, you can't do that with yours:confused:..........oh yeah, it is 27" long and when run indoors I can run it shorter than a pistol........

I didn't see that coming!


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

Vinh
11-19-2014, 02:03 PM
Ok, that was unexpected. I have to ask, how do you activate the light?

orionz06
11-19-2014, 02:27 PM
I was not expecting a 3 point sling or a bullpup.

Dagga Boy
11-19-2014, 02:34 PM
Ok, that was unexpected. I have to ask, how do you activate the light?

With my strong side (right) thumb. I simply reach up and activate the light as needed, otherwise it is out of the way. Before everyone has a meltdown about using the strong side thumb to activate something while not wrapped around the back of the gun, I would highly suggest thinking about operating the safety on the AR platform by lefties. Many long range shooters do this, and no less than Buck Doyle (who is a well proven but little known stud out of the USMC) teaches to unwrap the thumb as a counter to high heart rate to get better trigger control.

Jay Cunningham
11-19-2014, 02:48 PM
I run a 16" Piston gun as my HD and urban use carbine. It has a sling (Wilderness Giles sling), a 600 lumen Surefire light with a simple push button, and an Aimpoint Comp M4 red dot (10 year battery life with a AA lithium, and they last longer when left on, so it is). It is kept in a condition with a 42 round polymer translucent magazine in place (down loaded by two), no round in the chamber, hammer down and the safety on........wait, you can't do that with yours:confused:..........oh yeah, it is 27" long and when run indoors I can run it shorter than a pistol........

Can you discuss the thought process that led you to this partcular weapon layout? Do you recommend it to your students?

Dagga Boy
11-19-2014, 04:27 PM
I was not expecting a 3 point sling or a bullpup.

Trust me, it is the only gun I run a three point on. The Giles sling just works on these things. The picture was taken with the two point.

Jay, I have long been an AUG advocate and have made no bones about my personal affinity for the system for indoor, vehicle and urban use. I still prefer the AR for a "field" gun. I just don't do a lot of "field" stuff. The AUG no longer takes a ton of dedication. parts are easier to find than in the past and things like magazines are both affordable and easy to find. I would have no issue with a student wanting to run one. Most who have taken classes from us know we are not very dogmatic on what you are running........unless you can't run it. I can easily teach the AUG. I had to sort of seek out the experts when I got started with them. My next AUG will be the new variant in "Mud" color with the 3X and I'll be running a mini red dot on top to see if I like that for a field system.
Plusses....balance (the thing comes up from a ready faster than anything I have found, and I like to work out of a deep low ready rather than through the TV set), very compact, 16" ballistics (also lower noise and blast), no NFA stuff, great ergonomics as far as safety placement and controls, and it runs great with higher capacity magazines that don't hinder manueverability.

Jay Cunningham
11-20-2014, 10:48 AM
Jay, I have long been an AUG advocate and have made no bones about my personal affinity for the system for indoor, vehicle and urban use.


I would have no issue with a student wanting to run one.

So you're saying that given all realistic available options, you advocate and recommend the AUG (in a similar layout to the one pictured above) to your civilian students for a home defense long gun?



Plusses....balance (the thing comes up from a ready faster than anything I have found, and I like to work out of a deep low ready rather than through the TV set), very compact, 16" ballistics (also lower noise and blast), no NFA stuff, great ergonomics as far as safety placement and controls, and it runs great with higher capacity magazines that don't hinder manueverability.

Any downsides?

Dagga Boy
11-20-2014, 04:40 PM
So you're saying that given all realistic available options, you advocate and recommend the AUG (in a similar layout to the one pictured above) to your civilian students for a home defense long gun?




Any downsides?

So the AUG isn't a realistic option? Only an NFA AR is? An AR pistol? If you guys think that a suppressed short barreled rifle with two NFA tax stamps is the way to go, great. We don't do much in the way of carbine classes due to not really having a good facility and a zillion former Tier 1 mil guys teaching here, so it isn't that relative, but I have recommended the AUG to many folks, especially the current A3.

Downsides....I guess it's not an AR, more work to support, BUT they generally don't need much. Slower to reload slightly (because there are reams of cases where blowing through 40 round of 5.56 in a US defensive shooting and the very slight difference in speed made a difference..???). You also need to shoot it like an AUG and not an AR...which simply takes training and a little effort.

Jay, have you ever run one indoors or through any kind of extended carbine class to base the vibe that I am getting that they are not a good choice?

Jay Cunningham
11-20-2014, 06:48 PM
So the AUG isn't a realistic option? Only an NFA AR is? An AR pistol? If you guys think that a suppressed short barreled rifle with two NFA tax stamps is the way to go, great. We don't do much in the way of carbine classes due to not really having a good facility and a zillion former Tier 1 mil guys teaching here, so it isn't that relative, but I have recommended the AUG to many folks, especially the current A3.

Downsides....I guess it's not an AR, more work to support, BUT they generally don't need much. Slower to reload slightly (because there are reams of cases where blowing through 40 round of 5.56 in a US defensive shooting and the very slight difference in speed made a difference..???). You also need to shoot it like an AUG and not an AR...which simply takes training and a little effort.

Jay, have you ever run one indoors or through any kind of extended carbine class to base the vibe that I am getting that they are not a good choice?


As Tom alluded to, I consider the AUG a realistic but slightly off-the-wall choice, so I'm interested in your insight.

To me, "realistic" means that the carbine is both of an established type and also that the end-user has options and isn't restricted or limited in any fashion by what they can choose.

I consider AR-15s, Kalashnikovs, AUGs, and Mini-14s as the most realistic options in the United States... probably M-1 Carbines as well. I'd lump the Tavor in with the AUG.

HRL
11-20-2014, 08:29 PM
Just got through this thread, great info as always hoping to get a general purpose 5.56 carbine set up soon..curious what you guys think the best of the "realistic" choices are for a lefty long gun shooter. Last time I owned long guns I could see sights with my right eye but now I'll have to retrain myself. Have heard bullpups aren't necessarily the best choice for lefties but have no experience with them.

Dagga Boy
11-20-2014, 10:28 PM
As Tom alluded to, I consider the AUG a realistic but slightly off-the-wall choice, so I'm interested in your insight.

To me, "realistic" means that the carbine is both of an established type and also that the end-user has options and isn't restricted or limited in any fashion by what they can choose.

I consider AR-15s, Kalashnikovs, AUGs, and Mini-14s as the most realistic options in the United States... probably M-1 Carbines as well. I'd lump the Tavor in with the AUG.

I am not grasping "off the wall" at all. I am running a gun that is almost a foot shorter than a similarly equipped AR. All the weight is to the rear and is easy to handle with one hand (opening doors, herding kids, talking on the cell phone, etc. which are all important when you are working alone). The two people I know who have lost arms both went to the AUG after losing their arms.....thats a hint. I can compress the gun (think the same way we short stock a shotgun) and make it shorter than an extended pistol, and as short as a compressed pistol. The sling I use allows the gun to sit totally concealed behind me if needed and can be brought into action from that position very quickly. Again, it mounts from the low ready faster than any other rifle I own (and that is a long list). All of my AUG's have been very reliable with very few issues, and mostly ammo related. I was top shooter in the class in my NRA patrol rifle instructor school (44 hours and everything must be done both right and left handed). I have had no issues out shooting most folks I have been around with them, particularly inside of 25 yards (sounds like "home defense" to me).

Magazines......30 or 42 rounders from the factory that are BY FAR the best polymer magazines I have ever used......under $20. Modifications.....doesn't need them, and not recommended, which is good (except for tinkerers). Easy to clean. They tend to run clean.

I actually think this thing is far more "realistic" for the task of defending and working within the home than a military field rifle that others find "normal" but then need to be shortened to a length that creates ballistic suck and become so blasty that a suppressor is almost a requirement. Again, back to shooting an intruder with an NFA weapon with a suppressor. Legal, sure.......but I guarantee that if you have to shoot a "teen" in your home, the short barreled "silenced" rifle will become an issue that I am happy to not bring into the equation.

I can rapidly run the piss out of mine with my left hand as primary if I need to. If you are a lefty, an AUG with a left hand bolt is a viable choice. Like many things, if you have never run the system in the field, or never had good instruction on how to run the gun properly, then I could see it not being on someone's radar, but just because someone only understands a couple of systems, doesn't make my choice anyway wrong..........especially noting that I have likely cleared far more structures than most here for real.

I'll quote Giles Stock (Phoenix PD retired/Gunsite Instructor) "I often had people talk crap about the AUG. My challenge was simple, bring your AR or MP5 or whatever else you want to the range and your shooting drills. Also bring lunch money because I am hungry." Giles said the worst he did was a couple of tie's with some exceptionally good shooters, but he never bought lunch.

Also, "established". Things have been around since 77. In service with several countries (if the Australians had just bought Austrian rather than build their own they would have been happier), and I was recommended the gun by members of both our country and a solid ally's top level counter-terror units who used them operationally and preferred them to the M4 in some situations. Also in use by both the counter-terror assets of Austria and Germany. Many Gunsite Carbine classes were both taught and won with a AUG I currently own. As long as its a Steyr, they are one of the most problem free systems out there, so I am missing the "established" part...............but a pistol with a legal loophole "brace" is somehow "established". Okay.....I'll keep my "not established" gun.

rob_s
11-21-2014, 07:07 AM
I don't know why you're getting so defensive about it, and choosing to fixate on words you choose to find offensive or derogatory. People are just asking questions. Bahsam has said that if everyone else is dong things one way, and you're doing things another, that might be a clue.

The Aug, in American society, is an anachronism, like it or not. I've always loved them (too much Miami Vice as a kid, I guess) but always found them cost-prohibitive during the ban, suspect after the ban (at least as made by companies other than Steyr), and lost track of what's the new hotness with them since.

This whole discussion is so esoteric as to probably not matter. Non-LE civilian HD rifles? That's a one-in-a-billion usage. Even in LE circles, how many "patrol carbines" or SWAT rifles actually ever get shot?

For me, I choose the AR SBR, with can, because it's what I have, and it's what most closely matches my play guns. Familiarity with the controls, knowing how to compensate for problems, etc far outweighs any other reasonable factors.

I'd like to Steyr field a 3-gun team.

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 08:21 AM
Rob, you didn't just get on me for being defensive.....:confused:;). If there is a AUG 3 gun team, I want on it.

I wrote an article a while ago in which I compared the AUG and the AR to Apple and PC. THe AUG is very much like Apple. Works best with all Apple stuff and tends to be simple and intuitive. You need to think completely different to run it.........there is no "right click". The AR, like PC is what "business uses". There are tons of "things" for it. Lots of outside support. It makes sense for business, but.....go look at the entertainment industry and Apple rules the day. Essentially, they are just different things doing a similar job and they excel in different areas. There was a time when I didn't use Apple or wasn't familiar with it (as most know, I simply suck at technology stuff). I loved my Droid for its mapping and contacts, which is all I really used. Then I went to all Apple across the board. Tough transition to learn, but now, I much prefer it. The AUG is the same for me. It just works better for my life. I'll post some pictures later of how I carry it outside the house, but again, for my "retired life" it is a better choice. For "business", the AR makes a lot of sense. I don't do Military or LE the same as before, so I am not as restrained (although I have carried the AUG in both the private and public sector extensively), thus I can make a personal fit choice. I am also still a huge fan of the shotgun for the house, but they are not for everyone. The AR is also a very valid choice. Compared to both, I prefer the AUG for manueverability and ease of use for many of the reasons mentioned above in prior posts.

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 09:02 AM
While not really "Home Defense", if I need to take the AUG to places other than home, I use three means of carry. An old Eagle rifle bag for a folding stock AK that it fits in assembled with its normal 5, 42 round magazines (generally a range/training bag). I also have a Sneaky Bags T.O.T. messenger bag that fits the gun perfectly broken down (takes a couple seconds to put the barrel in) with a load out of 200 or 400 rounds of ammunition. Pretty serious discrete package for when I am using it for "work". Then I just got this "sling bag" that is a discountinued item from 5.11 for a collapsable stock MP5. Very discrete package.

overton
11-21-2014, 09:06 AM
Any chance for a reference where one can find this article? Ever considered writing a longer article/book/dvd on how to run the AUG?

HCM
11-21-2014, 09:30 AM
How about a HITS AUG class ?

Or, failing that," Nyetis big hairy AUG Love thread" ?

I've had my A1 since the 90's and would appreciate some recommendations on spare parts I should be stocking up on.

Before the red dot AR became what it is today, the AUG was THE gun for quick hits inside 200 yards. It is hands down my favorite Non AR platform.

Jay Cunningham
11-21-2014, 10:29 AM
I am not grasping "off the wall" at all. I am running a gun that is almost a foot shorter than a similarly equipped AR. All the weight is to the rear and is easy to handle with one hand (opening doors, herding kids, talking on the cell phone, etc. which are all important when you are working alone). The two people I know who have lost arms both went to the AUG after losing their arms.....thats a hint. I can compress the gun (think the same way we short stock a shotgun) and make it shorter than an extended pistol, and as short as a compressed pistol. The sling I use allows the gun to sit totally concealed behind me if needed and can be brought into action from that position very quickly. Again, it mounts from the low ready faster than any other rifle I own (and that is a long list). All of my AUG's have been very reliable with very few issues, and mostly ammo related. I was top shooter in the class in my NRA patrol rifle instructor school (44 hours and everything must be done both right and left handed). I have had no issues out shooting most folks I have been around with them, particularly inside of 25 yards (sounds like "home defense" to me).

Magazines......30 or 42 rounders from the factory that are BY FAR the best polymer magazines I have ever used......under $20. Modifications.....doesn't need them, and not recommended, which is good (except for tinkerers). Easy to clean. They tend to run clean.

I actually think this thing is far more "realistic" for the task of defending and working within the home than a military field rifle that others find "normal" but then need to be shortened to a length that creates ballistic suck and become so blasty that a suppressor is almost a requirement. Again, back to shooting an intruder with an NFA weapon with a suppressor. Legal, sure.......but I guarantee that if you have to shoot a "teen" in your home, the short barreled "silenced" rifle will become an issue that I am happy to not bring into the equation.

I can rapidly run the piss out of mine with my left hand as primary if I need to. If you are a lefty, an AUG with a left hand bolt is a viable choice. Like many things, if you have never run the system in the field, or never had good instruction on how to run the gun properly, then I could see it not being on someone's radar, but just because someone only understands a couple of systems, doesn't make my choice anyway wrong..........especially noting that I have likely cleared far more structures than most here for real.

I'll quote Giles Stock (Phoenix PD retired/Gunsite Instructor) "I often had people talk crap about the AUG. My challenge was simple, bring your AR or MP5 or whatever else you want to the range and your shooting drills. Also bring lunch money because I am hungry." Giles said the worst he did was a couple of tie's with some exceptionally good shooters, but he never bought lunch.

Also, "established". Things have been around since 77. In service with several countries (if the Australians had just bought Austrian rather than build their own they would have been happier), and I was recommended the gun by members of both our country and a solid ally's top level counter-terror units who used them operationally and preferred them to the M4 in some situations. Also in use by both the counter-terror assets of Austria and Germany. Many Gunsite Carbine classes were both taught and won with a AUG I currently own. As long as its a Steyr, they are one of the most problem free systems out there, so I am missing the "established" part...............but a pistol with a legal loophole "brace" is somehow "established". Okay.....I'll keep my "not established" gun.

Thanks for offering up your insight, Daryl!

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 10:35 AM
How about a HITS AUG class ?

Or, failing that," Nyetis big hairy AUG Love thread" ?

I've had my A1 since the 90's and would appreciate some recommendations on spare parts I should be stocking up on.

Before the red dot AR became what it is today, the AUG was THE gun for quick hits inside 200 yards. It is hands down my favorite Non AR platform.

I'll have to teach that one alone......keeping in mind that Wayne teaches for Colt......and will not even entertain the idea of eating Sushi;).

In its day, the A1 was the gun, and for those who remember, it was THE 3 gun rifle. I would suggest getting a spare parts kit that PJ's Steyr AUG sells with all your critical parts. I have that kit in with my very well used A1. I broke a firing pin in my A1 and it is better to have these type of things with the gun. Before everyone gets excited about the firing pin......its from a gun that was likely shot more than most of the AUG's on the planet, and far more the most AR's will ever see. It belonged to the Operations manager at Gunsite, and was also his SWAT rifle. It became my helo gun post 911 and rode with me everyday at work behind my seat in an MD500E helicopter for several years.

What has REALLY made the AUG is the railed guns that are basically made for an Aimpoint. My A2 currently has the correct Steyr Scope and is now a safe queen, but when I started running an AImpoint on it, it was what really made the gun, and allowed for easy performance at speed and under stress. It was what I was running when I went through the NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor school. The current A3's are set up great for the Aimpoint, and the new M1 variants should be great as well. Giles Stock is running one now with
various sighting set ups to figure out what works best, and I will likely start working with the M1 next year as funds permit. I am very happy with the current set up, but want to at least try the 3X variant with a small red dot on top.

Wondering Beard
11-21-2014, 01:29 PM
I like the concept of the bullpup for all the reasons that Nyeti mentioned.

I have no experience with one thus my question: how does one shoot it from the weak side? Considering home defense duties (in my home, it means changing shoulders rather often if I have to go explore), it would seem that having the ejection port right where the chin is, is going to create problems (apparently the brass deflector in the Tavor is supposed to solve that but I have never even held one or an AUG so I have no idea).

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 01:55 PM
Changing shoulders is HIGHLY overated in my experience (along with speed reloads and shooting multitudes of non-evaluated targets as fast as possible, but I digress) especially in the United States with typical street criminals. Even more so in a defensive situation. Others may differ on this, but I will again differ to personal experience of clearing thousands of other people's structures and often in low light. I recently shot a drill with a bunch of SWAT cops. You had to shoot a bunch of it using support side cover. This is actually where I simply devasted them on both time and effiency. I can run support cover with an AUG, it is simply knowing how. This is where a red dot really helps a ton. It doesn't look like a Magpul video, but it works. I don't like to change shoulders on my AR's or shotguns either, so it is sort of an academic non-starter for me. If it is a huge concern for others, great. Get out there, split your training time in half, or actually more like 2/3 support side, 1/3 strong to get equally profiecint (or bad) with both.

Again, people have different priorities. Build the system to yours. I am going to be like my religion on converting the masses to the AUG.........we'll take anybody, but we don't recruit. I have simply gotten to a place where it is the best system for me in a majority of the roles I have for a long gun these days. I still shoot AR's a lot, and actually more than the AUG due to doing demo's for Aimpoint and staying current, so its not like I don't like them.

LittleLebowski
11-21-2014, 02:23 PM
I've found that with my near center chest hold (stock is up against right pec instead of being in the shoulder pocket), that I can very slight shift position of the stock and roll my head over after switching hands out. Thoughts on that for bullpups, nyeti?

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 02:39 PM
I've found that with my near center chest hold (stock is up against right pec instead of being in the shoulder pocket), that I can very slight shift position of the stock and roll my head over after switching hands out. Thoughts on that for bullpups, nyeti?

I simply either roll the AUG over to the Aimpoint in front of the left eye and it is essentially being shot on its side. I aim slightly high and to the right. Option two is to switch my left hand to the pistol grip and extend the gun sort of around the cover, it can be extended and shot like a pistol, or the right hand goes to the back of the stock and works like a brass deflector and stand off. I greatly prefer method one, and really prefer an extreme body lean out, which works much better with the AUG than most other systems. Those who run the AUG generally find that they can use a lot of their "pistol techniques" with them, which is another thing I really like i I definitely spend a lot more time shooting and training with a pistol.

Sheep Have Wool
11-21-2014, 04:42 PM
nyeti's AUG articles are now posted on the (new and improved) Hardwired Tactical Shooting website (http://www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com). It's still got a few kinks to work out, so if you notice any, please shoot me a PM.

The Auspicious AUG (http://hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/blog/item/29-the-auspicious-aug)
The Care & Feeding of the AUG (http://hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/blog/item/30-aug-care-and-feeding)

23JAZ
11-21-2014, 05:25 PM
The handgun is convenient and easy to conceal.

The carbine is more effective but heightens profile.

A carbine is impractical for most circumstances, but for home defense it is the preferred choice if available. It can be practical for some civilians to keep a carbine in their personal vehicle but this may not be viable in many cases.


What might an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen look like?


The likely engagement envelope for this weapon would be inside a residential structure, in low light conditions, to be used against close range threats – possibly multiple but no more than a handful.

The armed citizen will most likely have been awakened out of a sleep (groggy) and will be wearing minimal clothing, no gloves, no earpro, no eyepro, and no support gear.

The weapon should be set up to “grab and go”, i.e. an extra magazine mounted to the gun, a light mounted to gun, the optical sight (if used) turned on, BUIS deployed. This weapon should be for the infamous “bump in the night”, ready for immediate deployment.

Extreme precision is not required; reliability is a more important attribute.

Magnified optics are not desirable due to the nature of the ranges involved.

The weapon should have compact overall dimensions to aid in maneuvering inside the home.

The lightest possible weight (KISS/superlight, etc.) is not necessarily a requirement, though weight savings is always desirable if performance is relatively unaffected.

A sling may not be absolutely necessary in a purely reactive situation or in a static defense, but it is a wise accessory when the aforementioned scenarios move beyond the initial encounter. A QD sling is a good option rolled up beside carbine, as is keeping the sling stowed on the carbine.

A suppressor is a good option if overall compactness and balance is not sacrificed.

Ammunition selection should be proven effective against humans yet reduce the probability of interior/exterior wall penetration.

The weapon is likely to be left in Condition Three (cocked on safe, empty chamber, magazine inserted).

Using the above criteria as a guide, an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen may look something like this:


barrel length 10″ to 12.5″



mil-spec “NATO” chamber and M4 feed ramps



1/8 or 1/7 twist rate



fixed compact or adjustable length stock



20 round magazines



75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, or 77 gr SMK OTM ammunition



dedicated weapon light (examples: SF X300, M300A Scout, Insight WX150 LED, Streamlight TLR)



compact, lightweight suppressor (examples: SF Mini, Gemtech TREK, AAC RANGER 2)



lightweight rail, preferably partially enclosing suppressor and/or mounting a handstop to protect from burns



Boonie Packer Redi-Mag (or BFG Redi-Mod)



fixed front sight and fixed or deployed folding rear sight



optical sight (examples: Aimpoint Micro T-1, EOTech XPS) or visible laser (example: Insight AN/PEQ-5 CVL)



quick deploying two point sling (VCAS w/QD mounts, VTAC-PS Attachment Sling)


Magazines are a failure point for semi-automatic firearms, and historically they have certainly been a failure point for AR-15s. In my scenario I am using 20 round magazines, so probably we are talking about 36 total rounds on the weapon. IMO it's a lot more realistic that the typical home owner may have to conduct remedial action or a reload than it is to suggest that they'd be armed with a secondary weapon to transition to.

I personally recommend the Aimpoint Micro, but I didn't want to play favorites in what I wrote above. There are very compelling reasons to use a 30mm Aimpoint as well.

If bullets start flying inside your own house, odds are high that you will experience the physiological phenomenon of audio exclusion - however short barrel 5.56mm guns are still loud and blasty. A bad guy is probably going to armed with a handgun and will be (hopefully) at least a couple of yards away, so I don't think hearing loss from an assailant's firearm would be a factor. Anyway, you still have the ears of your own family to try and protect. As I stated above, a suppressor is a good option if overall compactness and balance is not sacrificed.

The final layout of the weapon is not nearly as important as the process which determines it.

When one clearly defines one’s mission (whatever that may be), subsequent gear and training questions usually fall into place.

People need to make realistic, informed determinations of their needs and suit their gear (to include weapons) and their training accordingly.

The intent of my post is not to advocate for the carbine for home defense. It is instead an example of a methodology if you've made the determination that a carbine is the right tool. It is made in a vacuum, with out consideration of local laws or attitudes of juries. It is, as stated, what an optimized defensive carbine for the armed citizen might look like.

:cool:


~ Jay C

edited to add: Implied in the above is the necessary training and practice in order to employ the carbine effectively in an indoor environment. No one suggests not "honing the real weapon in the system".

Regarding those who may suggest a fixation on the gun and "stuff" that you bolt to it: once again mission should drive the gear train. If you had a mission of fighting inside a structure and you were presented with two weapons:

M16A2
Mk18

Which would you choose?

You don't have to answer that. Point being, people need to make a realistic, informed determination of their needs and suit their gear (to include weapons) and their training accordingly.


The above is not "The Law as Told By Jay"; it is simply an expression of some opinions that I've formed through my training and experience with several very good instructors. Please feel free to discuss and disagree!

Why do you recommend a partially enclosed can? Another PF member says he see nothing but negatives with that set up. Like excess heat.

Jay Cunningham
11-21-2014, 05:52 PM
At the time I wrote this it seemed an easy way to keep yourself from getting burned. Don't read too much into it.

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 05:59 PM
The AUG A3 article was cut from a much longer article originally submitted a couple years before it was actually printed. Keep in mind this was likely written in the 08 time frame. I submitted the original article to sheep have wool to add. It will make a lot more sense minus the pictures. The care and feeding with the pictures is a big help.

Jay Cunningham
11-21-2014, 06:41 PM
Are there PDs that use the AUG as a patrol rifle? (yes I know it's off the HD topic but I'm curious)

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 06:52 PM
In the past yes. Phoenix and US Customs were the big ones. Actually, for PD's the big issue has been the Fed's "they're legal, no their not" merry go round. Like HK, Steyr got killed in the 94 ban. Their first try at US manufacture went bad. Sabre built good guns.....piss poor gun accounting and ran afoul with ATF and are no longer around. The good news is that the Vltor built guns are as good if not better than the Austrian. Like HK with Wilcox, Steyr has found the right place to build the guns. Mine is a sub minute capable gun with no issues at all. With time, they may be a viable LE gun again, but it will take some time. I know there are a bunch of individual LEO's running them, and likely some small agencies. The Tavor's are also seeing some small inroads as well.

For LE, I am even a big AR supporter. Kind of like what I said about P.C. being the system to run for business. Likewise the best fit for the AUG is specialty stuff (I used mine extensively for EP and Protective details) and home defense.

Jay Cunningham
11-21-2014, 06:55 PM
How's your trigger? Do you keep it stock or do you use a tamer?

Jay Cunningham
11-21-2014, 07:01 PM
2778

Here's some pics of our student Harold W. running his Tavor through our Advanced Carbine Clinic - not exactly the same, but not too different either.

2779

Dagga Boy
11-21-2014, 08:09 PM
How's your trigger? Do you keep it stock or do you use a tamer?

Stock. Remember about twenty years ago when Glock triggers were "horrible", until people got used to them. Same thing. I have no issues with the trigger.

overton
11-21-2014, 11:57 PM
The trigger tamer makes the reset even more mushy. Thats the one thing I don't really like about the AUG.

Jay Cunningham
11-23-2014, 05:37 PM
Stock. Remember about twenty years ago when Glock triggers were "horrible", until people got used to them. Same thing.

They're certainly not VP9s, that's fer sure.

Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 06:10 PM
They're certainly not VP9s, that's fer sure.

AR triggers are very much like 1911 triggers. They are definitely not like AR/1911 triggers. With that said, like the Glock or other polymer guns or even the DA/SA or LEM guns, you just need to "learn" the trigger. You can learn an AUG trigger and it is a good field/street trigger (here we go again) that is not a huge problem for most situations. I can get sub MOA with the trigger in the thing, which is all I really can ask for at this point.

Jay Cunningham
03-03-2019, 10:18 AM
Necrobump but here's what I've settled on for my needs:


BCM LW 11.5" upper
10" KMR handguard
BCM BCG
BCM GF Comp
BCM GF Ambi CH
Troy folding BUIS
Trijicon SRS
SF M300 Mini Scout light
BCM lower
GF Mod 3 grip
Geissele S3G trigger
VLTOR iMod stock
VLTOR A5SR Receiver Ext.
A5H4 buffer (6.83oz)
BAD-ASS ambi safety
SOB sling


Many moons later and my gun remains almost unchanged. The only difference is a BCM stock. So it seems I’ve either found my winning combination, or perhaps a little maturity to stop fiddling with inconsequential increments.

35737

Jay Cunningham
03-03-2019, 10:19 AM
NOTE:

I do consider MLOK superior to KEYMOD. However I have no need to change up what I currently have. It’s fine.

Wondering Beard
03-03-2019, 11:31 AM
Many moons later and my gun remains almost unchanged. The only difference is a BCM stock. So it seems I’ve either found my winning combination, or perhaps a little maturity to stop fiddling with inconsequential increments.

35737

How do you like the BCM GF Comp?

Does it do its job as intended but no more or less than any other on the market or does it do something particular/better that you like?

Jay Cunningham
03-03-2019, 01:18 PM
How do you like the BCM GF Comp?

Does it do its job as intended but no more or less than any other on the market or does it do something particular/better that you like?

I can’t give you a meaningful answer. I think “do[es] its job as intended but no more or less than any other on the market” is accurate.

GAP
03-06-2019, 08:05 PM
Many moons later and my gun remains almost unchanged. The only difference is a BCM stock. So it seems I’ve either found my winning combination, or perhaps a little maturity to stop fiddling with inconsequential increments.

35737

Jay,

I’ve been following this thread for a looooooong time. I’ve been into AK rifles for a long time, but knew one day I’d grab an AR. Well, it happened and I am very pleased with my new BCM M4 Carbine.

Can you please advise on the below questions?

1. Do you keep the magazine in the rifle with 28 or 30 rounds?
2. Do you agree with my current storage method? I have small children, so I prefer to have it in a quick safe with an empty chamber, safety on, bolt forward.

Thanks!

35861

Jay Cunningham
03-06-2019, 08:56 PM
28 rounds.

I think your storage method is perfectly reasonable.

Paul Blackburn
03-06-2019, 09:15 PM
77 gr OTM for home defense? Too much penetration.

Casual Friday
03-07-2019, 10:27 AM
Great choice for your first AR15.


Jay,

I’ve been following this thread for a looooooong time. I’ve been into AK rifles for a long time, but knew one day I’d grab an AR. Well, it happened and I am very pleased with my new BCM M4 Carbine.

Can you please advise on the below questions?

1. Do you keep the magazine in the rifle with 28 or 30 rounds?
2. Do you agree with my current storage method? I have small children, so I prefer to have it in a quick safe with an empty chamber, safety on, bolt forward.

Thanks!

35861

Eric_L
03-07-2019, 06:49 PM
77 gr OTM for home defense? Too much penetration.


It fragments, not too much penetration.

Wake27
03-08-2019, 12:46 AM
It fragments, not too much penetration.

It actually has less penetration than most bonded loads right? That’s why people don’t like it for barrier penetration I thought.


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Mjolnir
03-08-2019, 01:32 AM
It actually has less penetration than most bonded loads right? That’s why people don’t like it for barrier penetration I thought.


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True.


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