Most Reliable Auto - Poll [Archive]

GardoneVT

09-05-2013, 05:44 PM

What do you think the most reliable semi-auto pistol in history is?

Had a rather interesting (and ongoing) discussion with a prominent industry member regarding handgun and reliability. Topic came up, and we had similar, though not identical, thoughts.

The handgun which fires when you're facing the Gravest Extreme.

If a Rohm RG22 can stop a scumbag ,so can whatever brand and model of gun you can think of.

Let someone else waste brain cells comparing reliability charts.Everything can break,which is why you own two models of your carry gun.

Up1911Fan

09-05-2013, 05:55 PM

Dude. You didn't even vote for it.

Done.

BLR

09-05-2013, 05:56 PM

Let someone else waste brain cells comparing reliability charts.Everything can break,which is why you own two models of your carry gun.

Since I got smacked down by Tam, I'm going to let it "roll down hill".....

It's not wasting brain cells. It is gaining knowledge and familiarity with a tool you are potentially going to bet your life on. While this pole was more to satisfy a bet (not a monetary bet, David J. Baucom) between myself and a buddy, it does give an opportunity to discuss reliability, maintenance, et al, with like minded "outliers" in the gun community.

ETA: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5234-Glock-17-Gen-4-Stovepiping-Help-Needed/page6

For example, just take a look see at the number of people saying Gen III G17. If those guys, who were spoiled rotten by a truly "don't have to think about the gun" gun, knew the nuances of their gun like the dedicated 1911 crowd, you'd have likely/arguably seen a more definitive solution to the Gen 4 issues.

Just my $0.02 on the matter.

And Dude, Tam got her 1911 geek card shredded when she started toting a souless plastic people popper over some fine steel. :p

Tamara

09-05-2013, 06:07 PM

And Dude, Tam got her 1911 geek card shredded when she started toting a souless plastic people popper over some fine steel. :p

Ouch. :D

Dagga Boy

09-05-2013, 06:09 PM

For example, just take a look see at the number of people saying Gen III G17. If those guys, who were spoiled rotten by a truly "don't have to think about the gun" gun, knew the nuances of their gun like the dedicated 1911 crowd, you'd have likely/arguably seen a more definitive solution to the Gen 4 issues.

Just my $0.02 on the matter.

The definitive Gen 4 issue would have been to not have a Gen 4 G-17, left the "good" GEN 3 G-17's alone, made a .40 based on the 45GAP as its own model and been done with it.

BLR

09-05-2013, 06:53 PM

The definitive Gen 4 issue would have been to not have a Gen 4 G-17, left the "good" GEN 3 G-17's alone, made a .40 based on the 45GAP as its own model and been done with it.

I'm watching the Gen 4 developments with a morbid curiosity and amusement as the gun is now solidly following the trajectory of the 1911 w/ aftermarket parts, and proprietary geometries of key components, and the sort because the maker didn't get it right.

Bit of trivia: the SACS Professional is no longer shipped with 47Ds. If one follows the time lines, that corresponds to SACS no longer using a Wilson Combat slide stop. SACS uses their own lobe geometry, which is largely incompatible with the 47D. Which is the magazine that the Marines adore, and was originally spec'd on the Pro RFP....for good reason.

Tamara

09-05-2013, 07:02 PM

Bit of trivia: the SACS Professional is no longer shipped with 47Ds.

Hasn't been for about a decade, at least. They went to 7-rd Metalforms in '01 or '02, about the time I bought mine*. :confused:

(*I bought mine used. It came with a stack of 47 Deltas, the springs of which needed to be changed on all but one.)

BLR

09-05-2013, 07:10 PM

Didn't say it was recent. They changed slide stops and began having trouble.

My own experience mirrors this, fwiw.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

Tamara

09-05-2013, 07:24 PM

Didn't say it was recent. They changed slide stops and began having trouble.

Just for the data point, mine (gun no. 650) has the in-house slide stop. Have used Wilsons with it almost exclusively.

SecondsCount

09-05-2013, 07:31 PM

I voted P30 just because that is the pistol that I have shot the most rounds through in the last couple years.

Rich

09-05-2013, 07:56 PM

Voted to see !

Really I would be happy with the performance of any of the above pistols.

My Colt 1911 was reliable . But it came throated and had good 3dot sight. So I don't know if I would call that Mil spec

Don't have a MK25 but have a P229 40cal and so far its been reliable! Unless I count the time I tried feeding it SWC.

Shoot I'm happy If I can shoot 500rds out of a pistol without a hitch.

But for some strange reason I demand more out of my carbines.

BTW
I'm sure Gen 3 G17 will when the poll

Chuck Haggard

09-05-2013, 08:04 PM

The definitive Gen 4 issue would have been to not have a Gen 4 G-17, left the "good" GEN 3 G-17's alone, made a .40 based on the 45GAP as its own model and been done with it.

^This!!!!!!!!!!!!!^

I wish I had never told the Glock guys "Build the GAP in .40, or do a double nested recoil spring like the G27...." Should have stopped at chambering the GAP in .40

PS; I don't really think they actually listened to me.....

fixer

09-06-2013, 06:27 AM

The results so far are pretty funny: The G17 is outpacing the others even though Todd has significant evidence to the contrary on this very site.

BLR

09-06-2013, 06:34 AM

The results so far are pretty funny: The G17 is outpacing the others even though Todd has significant evidence to the contrary on this very site.

Why? I have 50 rounds through my 2004 G17. It must be perfect.

(I kid! :D)

Tamara

09-06-2013, 07:13 AM

The results so far are pretty funny: The G17 is outpacing the others even though Todd has significant evidence to the contrary on this very site.

The poll doesn't specify what generation of G17 and lumps the P30 in with the USP, and further doesn't specify what size or caliber USP.

Dagga Boy

09-06-2013, 07:24 AM

The poll doesn't specify what generation of G17 and lumps the P30 in with the USP, and further doesn't specify what size or caliber USP.

I have feeling if the poll said "Glock (to include the .40 with a light)", you would find that it would not have the same level of love. The biggest issue many of us have with Glock right now is "how did they screw up the one that worked the best"?:confused:

LSP972

09-06-2013, 07:38 AM

The biggest issue many of us have with Glock right now is "how did they screw up the one that worked the best"?:confused:

Exactly. But we know "how".

The question is... "WHY?"

Ease of production, of course.

We have a pro-2nd Amendment 'tax-free week-end' starting here today (no sales tax on anything gun/ammo/hunting/shooting related). I was thinking about going to the po-lice supply joint and picking up a blue-label G17 for a song... then remembered it would be a Gen 4 pistol.

Nah.....

.

Rich

09-06-2013, 09:03 AM

. The biggest issue many of us have with Glock right now is "how did they screw up the one that worked the best"?:confused:

Yeah I don't get it!

Sig is doing the same thing by changing specs on a pistol that was fine to begin with !

David Armstrong

09-07-2013, 02:47 PM

I voted G17 also, but I'm a Gen 2 hold-out!

justintime

09-07-2013, 03:20 PM

The poll doesn't specify what generation of G17 and lumps the P30 in with the USP, and further doesn't specify what size or caliber USP.

That's why I chose p30/usp. My old gen 2 glocks run just as good as my old usp, but my new glocks do not run as good as my new hks. So total picture I vote hk. Still prefer shooting glocks lol

JBP55

09-07-2013, 05:17 PM

The poll doesn't specify what generation of G17 and lumps the P30 in with the USP, and further doesn't specify what size or caliber USP.

You can vote for any P30 or USP of any caliber and only one model 9mm Glock so the odds are in favor of the many HK products winning. :)

Odin Bravo One

09-07-2013, 09:09 PM

In order to answer based on something other than speculation, we would need some facts first.

We can look at any number of standardized T&E's of the various firearms, and simply point to the results to find the high reliability pistols, knowing that reliability is but one aspect of what most agencies grade during a T&E/down select. Even if certain agencies selected a "winner" based solely on reliability, it tells us which was most reliable during their testing.

But it still doesn't actually answer the question as to which gun is the most reliable. The Browning designs have been around for over 100 years, with no one really knowing exactly how many millions have been made. Even in the "GI 1911" family, there are numerous manufacturers who built to various quality, and the standards/specs have changed over the years. I was issued a GI 1911, and I'd lay dollars to pesos it was nothing remotely close to a GI 1911 built in 1920, except for general appearance. As has been discussed, the Glock has been around for a few days, yet the standards and specs have continued to change, and not always for the better.

If we really want to know which is the most reliable, we have to further refine not only the question, but also the data points, comparable categories, and determine the overall criteria on which the answer will be based.

JodyH

09-07-2013, 09:48 PM

Josh Runkle

09-07-2013, 11:17 PM

The only guns I've never seen choke in my experience are Sigs. I've owned 5 of them, ask me how many I own now?

Mechanical reliability, while important, is still secondary to many other things.

BLR

09-08-2013, 06:29 AM

You'd also have to define the expected reliable "lifespan" and what maintenance is allowed.
While most of the guns on your list will be pretty much equal for 10k rounds, I don't think a commercial P35 or GI spec 1911 is going to be as reliable after 50k rounds as a modern polymer pistol like a P30 or Glock 17 especially with minimal or no preventative maintenance.
In a run 'em till they choke or break scenario I would not be choosing the 1911 or P35.

Why's that?

FWIW, the only reason people think polymer pistols don't need lubricant is because the manufactures whittle away 80% of the rails. Combine that with FNC on the slides, and typically EN on the rails, you get the impression that the guns are more tolerant of shoddy maintenance. However, for long term non maintained use, just the opposite is true. It wears more. They are simply made loose enough that no one notices.

As for the choices - I was assuming "best example of each." Can't believe I forgot the M92.

JodyH

09-08-2013, 09:10 AM

It's been my experience that the P35 and the 1911 are far less tolerant of worn parts and especially springs than guns like the Glock 17 which i've seen continue to function with multiple broken parts and truly worn out springs.

JHC

09-08-2013, 11:04 AM

That is what we were talking about.

The consensus is the mil spec 1911 w/ ball or the P35 with ball, with the nod to the P35.

I'd put up beer money to get Bill Rogers input.

From late '80's to 1990 or so I owned, shot and compared 1st Gen G17, PSP P7, and Mk III BHP and settled on the BHP for most of the '90's. I shot two of those Mk IIIs a lot and they ran like my Glocks, just magnificently.

BLR

09-08-2013, 12:10 PM

The P35 and 1911 were designed around fully compressed springs, so if anything those should be tolerant of weak springs.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

JodyH

09-08-2013, 01:49 PM

Just going by my experience running a High Power Practical in competition back in the early '90's then replacing it with a Glock 17.
The HP ran great as long as all the springs were "balanced", but would start choking if say I had an old recoil spring and brand new magazines or a brand new recoil spring with softly sprung old mags.
My 2nd Gen 17 on the other hand didn't care how I mixed and matched and I even finished a match with a broken trigger return spring (by manually resetting the trigger).

As far as 1911's go... let's just say my experience with "mil-spec" Springfields and Colts has been less than satisfactory mainly due to the magazine crap shoot.

There is no way I'd put my money on the P35 or the 1911 when compared to a P30 or Glock 17.
Not if we're talking straight off the assembly line and onto the range, 100 samples of each.
Now if we give the P35 and 1911 to a gunsmith/armorer for a quick tune up and have the option of doing the 1911 magazine shuffle... then it'd be a closer match up.
But without giving them the once over with a trained eye, I'll take the Lego guns every time.

LSP972

09-08-2013, 01:51 PM

They are simply made loose enough that no one notices.

But if they remain acceptably reliable and accurate... so what?

And I question your definition of the term "loose". If you mean "deliberately made to avoid a precise fit", then I don't think so. What DO you mean?

I'm getting that you mean the polymer pistols don't need much- if any- lube because they are so sloppily-built. By corollary, then, a ragged-out 1911 or P-35 with a lot of slop between the rails/bushings/etc. shouldn't need much/any lube either, eh? Good luck with that.

Polymer frames do not equate to sloppy/inaccurate pistols. I well remember one well-respected 1911 guru who, when "testing" the then-new HK45 pistol, was flabbergasted that it hung in there (and in some cases surpassed) the multi-$K custom 1911s he was shooting it against. To his credit, he was honest enough to admit it.

Your basic box-stock combat tupperware pistol will shoot a lot tighter than most of us can hold it. That is true for just about any modern firearm that is in-spec and hasn't been damaged.

And here's a newsflash... these plastic guns ARE "more tolerant of shoddy maintenance". Why do you think they (especially the Glock) are the darlings of US police? Because not only are they cheap, they work... and will work despite being neglected by your average cop. I know it is difficult for a non-LE firearms enthusiast to fathom how somebody who depends upon their firearm would even think about neglecting routine maintenance, etc. But the issue exists, and is in fact more the rule than the exception. And that's another reason revolvers survived so long in US LE. The bottom line is, first-generation SA pistols need a certain amount of continual attention to stay 100%. Most of the crop of polymer guns do not.

It really is that simple.

.

Sparks2112

09-08-2013, 02:05 PM

I said 226 with ball only because that's the pistol I've had the least number (zero so far) of failures with.

GJM

09-08-2013, 03:28 PM

I'd put up beer money to get Bill Rogers input.

Will you buy me a beer if I tell you what Bill Rogers said?

Answer is a Glock 17, which is what he said is the "handgun he would most confidently take to the end of the world." His reasoning was the maturity of the design, the low round count, and his ability to easily field maintain it with a minimum of parts and tools.

And, as long as you are on Bill Rogers, he says he shoots the Beretta 92 better than anything else, followed by a Sig 226. That said, while he shoots/demos whatever gun his military clients shoot, he seems to most often demo a G17 in open (civilian) classes. He may feel differently about the shootability of the Glock/Beretta/Sig 226 after his recent 125/125 demoing the school test with a G17. Bill expects to be able to pick up any of his regular pistols cold (Glock, M&P, Beretta, Sig) and shoot within 3 points on the 125 point school test. He shoots a RDS optic better than iron sights, but says nobody is paying to come to Rogers and see him demo the school test with a red dot.

BLR

09-08-2013, 05:42 PM

But if they remain acceptably reliable and accurate... so what?

And I question your definition of the term "loose". If you mean "deliberately made to avoid a precise fit", then I don't think so. What DO you mean?

I'm getting that you mean the polymer pistols don't need much- if any- lube because they are so sloppily-built. By corollary, then, a ragged-out 1911 or P-35 with a lot of slop between the rails/bushings/etc. shouldn't need much/any lube either, eh? Good luck with that.

It really is that simple.

I suggest you re-read what I said. I purposefully mentioned a reduction in bearing surface area. Friction is a function of area. That is why I specifically mentioned reduction in rail surface area. Because it never fails that someone goes "sloppy = reliable" in these discussions. I even spent time discussing that point.

Also, I don't think you mean "corollary." "Implication" would be more fitting.

BLR

09-08-2013, 05:57 PM

Will you buy me a beer if I tell you what Bill Rogers said?

Answer is a Glock 17, which is what he said is the "handgun he would most confidently take to the end of the world." His reasoning was the maturity of the design, the low round count, and his ability to easily field maintain it with a minimum of parts and tools.

And, as long as you are on Bill Rogers, he says he shoots the Beretta 92 better than anything else, followed by a Sig 226. That said, while he shoots/demos whatever gun his military clients shoot, he seems to most often demo a G17 in open (civilian) classes. He may feel differently about the shootability of the Glock/Beretta/Sig 226 after his recent 125/125 demoing the school test with a G17. Bill expects to be able to pick up any of his regular pistols cold (Glock, M&P, Beretta, Sig) and shoot within 3 points on the 125 point school test. He shoots a RDS optic better than iron sights, but says nobody is paying to come to Rogers and see him demo the school test with a red dot.

Beer anytime George.

Fly to KILN (has an active Cat 3 approach), and we can hit the bourbon trail.

Salamander

09-08-2013, 07:14 PM

Jesus, I had to look at the top of the page to make sure I was really at pistol-forum.com.

Seriously?

This is exactly the kind of stuff I come here to avoid.

More angels can dance in the ejection port of my gun than yours.

Yes, but how many on your firing pin? :D

LSP972

09-08-2013, 07:43 PM

Because it never fails that someone goes "sloppy = reliable" in these discussions. I even spent time discussing that point.

Fine. That's not what I wrote. Perhaps we are both comprehensionally-challenged. So I'll ask you a simple question; do you honestly think a given 1911 or P-35 can equal the reliability of a tupperware special, given the same degree of abuse/neglect (specifically, very little/no lubricant)?

.

BLR

09-08-2013, 07:55 PM

Fine. That's not what I wrote. Perhaps we are both comprehensionally-challenged. So I'll ask you a simple question; do you honestly think a given 1911 or P-35 can equal the reliability of a tupperware special, given the same degree of abuse/neglect (specifically, very little/no lubricant)?

.

If I wanted this argument, I'd be on Glock Talk.

JodyH

09-08-2013, 08:38 PM

If I wanted this argument, I'd be on Glock Talk.
1911forum.com is that way ----->

LSP972

09-09-2013, 07:06 AM

If I wanted this argument, I'd be on Glock Talk.

I see. Well, if you don't want argument, don't post statements that are arguable.

.

Tamara

09-09-2013, 07:09 AM

If I wanted this argument, I'd be on Glock Talk.

*holds envelope to forehead*

"What is Post #10?"

*tears envelope open, reads slip of paper*

Yup.

:p

JAD

09-09-2013, 11:01 AM

This is a weird one. I was suspicious that the poll was in fact an iQ test, wherein if you answer you fail.

JHC

09-09-2013, 11:08 AM

Will you buy me a beer if I tell you what Bill Rogers said?

Answer is a Glock 17, which is what he said is the "handgun he would most confidently take to the end of the world." His reasoning was the maturity of the design, the low round count, and his ability to easily field maintain it with a minimum of parts and tools.

And, as long as you are on Bill Rogers, he says he shoots the Beretta 92 better than anything else, followed by a Sig 226. That said, while he shoots/demos whatever gun his military clients shoot, he seems to most often demo a G17 in open (civilian) classes. He may feel differently about the shootability of the Glock/Beretta/Sig 226 after his recent 125/125 demoing the school test with a G17. Bill expects to be able to pick up any of his regular pistols cold (Glock, M&P, Beretta, Sig) and shoot within 3 points on the 125 point school test. He shoots a RDS optic better than iron sights, but says nobody is paying to come to Rogers and see him demo the school test with a red dot.

I will buy you a beer for that post. It's full of interesting. :D

BLR

09-09-2013, 11:17 AM

This is a weird one. I was suspicious that the poll was in fact an iQ test, wherein if you answer you fail.

Actually, this was to satisfy a curiosity of mine, brought on by ongoing discussions with several industry members (to include ammo and firearm manufacturing, as well as a non-1911 gunsmith of some fame). I figured this would be the place to ask, as generally speaking, the members here are a good deal more knowledgeable than average and experienced.

My curiosity was satisfied, my ignore list just got a tick or two longer, and I'm expecting a very enlightening discussion based on this tonight.

Heck, I even said that up front. I surprised it took as long as it did to turn.

JAD

09-09-2013, 11:24 AM

I do not get it. There is not a single person on this forum who is equipped to answer that poll accurately.

BLR

09-09-2013, 11:33 AM

Most are saying they *perceive* that the 3rd Gen G17 fits the description of "most reliable."

I won't argue that. And I'd take several of the participants opinion on that to the bank. The reason I asked, was more because I was unsure as to whether the P30/HK45 guns would beat out the G17. In retrospect, the poll was a bit lacking in choices and specs. Sorry for that. It did answer the question for me though.

It would have been somewhat interesting to discuss the why for lube/maint/reliability/etc statements were made.

BWT

09-09-2013, 12:44 PM

Price and availability will also affect that opinion of Glock or HK.

Glocks are everywhere. HKs and especially the latest generations? Not so much.

Cost will also keep a broad spectrum of customers away. Glock has a good reputation generally. Most unschooled will not reach over good that they know and cheaper to expensive, obscure and limited by comparison.

That's going to be a major influence on perception.

ETA: To clarify when I say latest generations, the Glock 17 really has only been tweaked in the last 25 years or so. The HKs have seen entire generations of pistols come and go in that time.

TGS

09-09-2013, 12:49 PM

The results so far are pretty funny: The G17 is outpacing the others even though Todd has significant evidence to the contrary on this very site.

I was also pretty surprised.

It's not even like an unreliable Glock is a new thing. Their history is riddled with design issues they chose to pawn off on the customer, often waiting to fix it until someone with a big enough ruler came along and slapped them across the knuckles.

Imagine if HK invested half as much into marketing as Glock.

Tamara

09-09-2013, 01:07 PM

However, for long term non maintained use, just the opposite is true. It wears more.

I think the amount of wear on the stub rails is a completely moot point, though. Think about all the high-round-count (50k+) testing that has been done on modern polymer guns with vestigial rails: In how many of those tests has rail wear been the ultimate failure mode?

Assuming Platonic Ideal examples of the best-of-breed of all the guns in the poll (actual GI spec Colt, FN GP-35, Gen 3 G17, P30, pre-rabid-outsourcing P-226...) the reliability with generic ball ammo is to the point where I'm as worried about the reliability of the primers in the ammo or parts breakage due to invisible manufacturing flaws that couldn't be detected in QC short of magnafluxing the guns.

I believe the reality of the modern marketplace (and what causes a lot of the ignorant goober-speak on the internets regarding the two older designs) is that:
1) "1911" and "High Power" are, like "Kleenex" and "Xerox", used generically for all kinds of guns*, and
2) The older designs, being more machining-intensive, are more subject to tolerance stack and QC fail**.

I can't remember where I heard it, but a guy from Smith was talking about the popularity of MIM for them, from the manufacturing standpoint, was that fewer hammers and triggers needed to be discarded in QC versus the old machined parts. End users rarely think about that. A lot of people don't think about the manufacturing end of things when it comes to why things cost what they do; if they did, they wouldn't ask why really good hand-cut checkering costs what it does. ;)

*Note that you asked about actual "M1911A1 of Gov't Spec" and some folks offered back their experiences with the Imbel Milspec.
**Especially the 1911, with its two-piece feed ramp and swinging link, both of which add one more place for a subpar manufacturer to get it wrong.

JBP55

09-09-2013, 01:15 PM

I saw a SWAT issued " E series" Glock 35 break a left rear guide rail after more than 10 years and more than 100,000 rounds. I contacted Glock and they replaced the receiver at no cost.
Some of the "E series" pistols had a known guide rail issue.

Tamara

09-09-2013, 01:25 PM

Some of the "E series" pistols had a known guide rail issue.

Yes. The stamping machine for the left rear guide rail was putting square corners rather than radiused ones on the part.

It appears that only serial numbers starting with "E", "GSSF", or "USA" (American Hero’s Commemoratives) are affected. In general, the chronological serial number set that has the prefix letters of "EKA" through "EVR" inclusive appear to be the affected Glocks, regardless of caliber.

I was a moderator at GlockTalk back during the E-series frame rail recall. Fun times. (And by "fun", I mean "the kittenheads all came out to play.")

JHC

09-09-2013, 03:11 PM

The results so far are pretty funny: The G17 is outpacing the others even though Todd has significant evidence to the contrary on this very site.

+1 funny for why that might be so. My vote is based on 27K rds logged in two Gen and three Gen 4 17s by our 3 shooters since 2010. The 2010 produced Gen 3 and the Gen 4's shot most of that.

GJM

09-09-2013, 05:27 PM

I don't think TLG's new G4 G17, at the time of that test, is indicative of either the maturity or reliability of the Glock being discussed. As I recall, perhaps incorrectly, Todd started with a G4 19, and the 17 was a replacement after the 19 wouldn't run.

Since mid- March, I have been shooting a Glock 17 -- a variety of new Gen 3 and 4 17's. In over 10,000 combined rounds through all the 17's, I have yet to experience a single stoppage, malfunction or parts breakage. Previously, it was a 2012 226R, and not a single anything in about 9,000 rounds. The P30 and M&P 9 I shot the year or two before also ran. Maybe I am just lucky, but things just seem to run well enough, reliability has not been a differentiating factor in the major platforms.

BoppaBear

09-09-2013, 08:28 PM

I was also pretty surprised.

It's not even like an unreliable Glock is a new thing. Their history is riddled with design issues they chose to pawn off on the customer, often waiting to fix it until someone with a big enough ruler came along and slapped them across the knuckles.

Imagine if HK invested half as much into marketing as Glock.

Yep. There was a recent discussion at a local forum regarding why more people don't have FN's. Of course price came up pretty quickly, then HK got thrown in the mix, then "...this is why I carry/shoot Glocks. They are just as good and at half the price of an HK."

Best thing HK could do to advertise its products in the US is to pay TLG for royalties related to the use of the P30 Torture Test for a US advertising campaign. Follow that up with a clip of SEAL Team VI training with the 416 and HK45CT, and Tactical Tommy would mortgage his first born to join "The World of HK".

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2013, 08:31 PM

I was specific on "which Glocks?" in my answer, and for good reasons.

Rich

09-09-2013, 09:42 PM

I think the amount of wear on the stub rails is a completely moot point, though. Think about all the high-round-count (50k+) testing that has been done on modern polymer guns with vestigial rails: In how many of those tests has rail wear been the ultimate failure mode?

Assuming Platonic Ideal examples of the best-of-breed of all the guns in the poll (actual GI spec Colt, FN GP-35, Gen 3 G17, P30, pre-rabid-outsourcing P-226...) the reliability with generic ball ammo is to the point where I'm as worried about the reliability of the primers in the ammo or parts breakage due to invisible manufacturing flaws that couldn't be detected in QC short of magnafluxing the guns.

I believe the reality of the modern marketplace (and what causes a lot of the ignorant goober-speak on the internets regarding the two older designs) is that:
1) "1911" and "High Power" are, like "Kleenex" and "Xerox", used generically for all kinds of guns*, and
2) The older designs, being more machining-intensive, are more subject to tolerance stack and QC fail**.

I can't remember where I heard it, but a guy from Smith was talking about the popularity of MIM for them, from the manufacturing standpoint, was that fewer hammers and triggers needed to be discarded in QC versus the old machined parts. End users rarely think about that. A lot of people don't think about the manufacturing end of things when it comes to why things cost what they do; if they did, they wouldn't ask why really good hand-cut checkering costs what it does. ;)

*Note that you asked about actual "M1911A1 of Gov't Spec" and some folks offered back their experiences with the Imbel Milspec.
**Especially the 1911, with its two-piece feed ramp and swinging link, both of which add one more place for a subpar manufacturer to get it wrong.

excellent reply

Tamara

09-09-2013, 11:04 PM

Tactical Tommy would mortgage his first born to join "The World of HK".

Tactical Tommy already does, and has done so for as long as I've been on the intertubes.

Eternal24k

09-10-2013, 02:00 PM

Sig's are the only platform i've NEVER had a malfunction with.

Yep. While I hear lots of rumblings regarding American made Sigs, it is the only platform I have never had any problems with, over 20k and never a single malfunction. While that is not a very big number, i have had mug better luck with my P226s and P228 than any Glock of mine

JHC

09-10-2013, 02:31 PM

I was specific on "which Glocks?" in my answer, and for good reasons.

Roger that. Major fail of large numbers of agency guns.

GardoneVT

09-10-2013, 02:34 PM

Yep. While I hear lots of rumblings regarding American made Sigs, it is the only platform I have never had any problems with, over 20k and never a single malfunction. While that is not a very big number, i have had mug better luck with my P226s and P228 than any Glock of mine

Good to know.

I just snagged a used P226 for $425, so your post is reassuring.

I'll take this chance to put in a good word for the 92FS also.I've been logging the rounds on my NIB example,and I've got 1123 rounds downrange with zero malfunctions.

BoppaBear

09-10-2013, 06:42 PM

Tactical Tommy already does, and has done so for as long as I've been on the intertubes.

I don't disagree. During "The Scare", it seemed that a lot of people were buying HKs. While some were outright open about buying them for bragging rights at the range, and to be different from their buddies. I would be curious to know how many bought them because they were the last guns standing on many gun shop shelves....most likely due to the price.

1slow

09-15-2013, 11:08 AM

The head of the local indoor range said that the HK USPs had been the most reliable rental range guns he has had over the Glocks and everything else. Those guns get run hard and dirty.

Tamara

09-15-2013, 11:28 AM

The head of the local indoor range said that the HK USPs had been the most reliable rental range guns he has had over the Glocks and everything else. Those guns get run hard and dirty.

The single most amazing rental gun performance I've seen was a SIG P-226. We kept one in DAO because that's what the Wackenhut dudes at ORNL carried at the time and there was always somebody practicing to qual or re-qual. That gun went through fifty or a hundred rounds or more a day, every day, on absolutely minimal cleaning and maintenance, for I don't know how many years before getting replaced with a DAK when Wackenhut changed to those. How the roll pins survived remains a mystery.

Charlie Foxtrot

09-15-2013, 11:32 AM

I voted G17 also, but I'm a Gen 2 hold-out!

+1. Those damn finger groves just don't fit my big Scot/Prussian paws.

I can't begin to estimate how many rounds I've sent downrange with my G17 Gen2 over the decades. Ball, SD HP, surplus, steel, my crappy reloads; doesn't matter: I can't remember a failure. Except for when my wife and a female friend shot it. Jam-o-matic. It either doesn't like girls, or they were limp-wristing it.

Nephrology

09-15-2013, 04:18 PM

I have been mostly happy with my Gen 3 Glock 9mms. Frankly I don't know how much it is worth our time to fret about owning the MOST RELIABLE PISTOL EVER. Seems like outside of the known lemons all the good ones are good til they're not, which is something you get a feel for over time the longer you own it. Just my 0.02 USD.

Chuck Haggard

09-16-2013, 01:22 AM

I know of two gen 2 G17s that are, no BS, over 125,000 rounds each without any issues except occasional spring replacement.

David Armstrong

09-16-2013, 05:50 PM

+1. Those damn finger groves just don't fit my big Scot/Prussian paws.

I can't begin to estimate how many rounds I've sent downrange with my G17 Gen2 over the decades. Ball, SD HP, surplus, steel, my crappy reloads; doesn't matter: I can't remember a failure. Except for when my wife and a female friend shot it. Jam-o-matic. It either doesn't like girls, or they were limp-wristing it.
I used to know my round count, but finally quit counting. G17: 150K+ Gen2 G19: 47K+
You may be right about those Scot paws---
David, son of James, Clan Armstrong
Cumberland
"Vi et armis invictus maneo"
and Reivers All!
:D