Russian Glocks

[Slavex]

So I did some Googling and found that someone is importing parts and building Glocks in Russia, but I was told this weekend that Glock is setting up a factory there due to demand and Russian laws. Anyone know anything about this?

[YVK]

Rob, I can't really see it happening from logical standpoint. Which is exactly why it is likely true, 'cause very few things n Russia follow logic.

I still believe that their official pistol cartridge is 9x18, so the demand couldn't be coming from LE or military. Officially, private ownership of centerfire pistols is prohibited, so the demand shouldn't be coming from here either.

I guess some oligarch decided he wanted to have an uninterrupted supply of Glocks for himself, his buddies and his posse, although I thought they preferred T-34 to G-34...

[Chuck Haggard]

The Russians have been playing with several 9mm NATO chambered service pistols for awhile now.

Just sayin.

[Kyle Reese]

It's my understanding that these Gen 4 17's will be manufactured in Austria, but assembled in Russia, ostensibly to satisfy Russian laws/regulations pertaining to the procurement of handguns for issue to internal security forces or the military.

I don't think these will be exported or sold to the Russian public.

[YVK]

The Russians have been playing with several 9mm NATO chambered service pistols for awhile now.

Just sayin.

Yep, I saw several designs, but I doubt widespread adoption at this point. On the streets the police still carried Maks as of this May. I can see a "limited engagement" type of deployment like Fred's alluding to.

[Kyle Reese]

Yep, I saw several designs, but I doubt widespread adoption at this point. On the streets the police still carried Maks as of this May. I can see a "limited engagement" type of deployment like Fred's alluding to.

I saw police in Vengriya carrying a mix of PA-63's, Baby Eagle and FEG Hi Power clones when I was there a few years ago, but I digress...

It would make a great deal of sense for the Russian security services to scrap the Makarovs and adopt a modern 9x19 service handgun.

[YVK]

I saw police in Vengriya carrying a mix of PA-63's, Baby Eagle and FEG Hi Power clones when I was there a few years ago, but I digress...

It would make a great deal of sense for the Russian security services to scrap the Makarovs and adopt a modern 9x19 service handgun.

I digress from your digression, but I just came from Budapest and I've no clue what their police carried. All I remember was three men patrols with two different firearms between them...Still better than what I saw in Madrid a few years ago, with two men patrols with one HK and one revolver...

Practically, Russians can switch to NATO calibers easily, they have tooling for 9x19 etc. Realistically, political chauvinism will be hard to overcome.

[Wendell]

...Officially, private ownership of centerfire pistols is prohibited...

Is it? How does one account for all of the IPSC footage?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALnrnmaUYpI

http://ipsc.ru/ (http://ipsc.ru/)

[YVK]

Is it? How does one account for all of the IPSC footage?



100%. Private citizens cannot own centerfire pistols in Russia, nonlethal only. To own centerfire hunting rifles, they have to have owned a shotgun for 5 years prior. A license to own any firearm includes photos, fingerprints, permission from LE, and medical exam, amongst other things.

Guns that are used to practice and shoot IPSC with - which has gained popularity recently - are owned by judicial entities, most often, shooting clubs. Or by fake judicial entities, established by connections for a sole reason of pistol ownership. Or just by connection. An acquaintance owns a centerfire pistol because he is a "businessman who requires protection on account of _______", fill blank with your own guess. He just smiled when I asked what legal steps he needed to undertake to get one.

[Rich]

So I did some Googling and found that someone is importing parts and building Glocks in Russia, but I was told this weekend that Glock is setting up a factory there due to demand and Russian laws. Anyone know anything about this?

Don't they have one in China ?

I wonder if China makes small parts for Glock? If so I could see why they are having problems.

Of coarse nowadays some of there stuff aint so bad.

[Suvorov]

What kind of pistols are they shooting in the video? The stainless on kind of looked like a 3rd gen Smith, but the blued ones? :confused:

Is it a Yarygin? :confused:

[Kyle Reese]

What kind of pistols are they shooting in the video? The stainless on kind of looked like a 3rd gen Smith, but the blued ones? :confused:

Is it a Yarygin? :confused:

Maybe a Varyag?

[SecondsCount]

Is it? How does one account for all of the IPSC footage?

When it comes to things pertaining to Russia, you can consider YVK an S.M.E. :cool:

[YVK]

When it comes to things pertaining to Russia, you can consider YVK an S.M.E. :cool:

I am gonna ask TLG to give me a Russian S.M.E. title, effective immediately.

In all fairness, I've stopped following their small arms development for some time. I do think that, if current interest continues, they'll be kicking ass in IPSC sooner or later. I think it is already happening on women's side.

[Suvorov]

I am gonna ask TLG to give me a Russian S.M.E. title, effective immediately.

In all fairness, I've stopped following their small arms development for some time. I do think that, if current interest continues, they'll be kicking ass in IPSC sooner or later. I think it is already happening on women's side.

What % if these guys in the video are RU.gov and RU.mil? Looks like most of them. Especially the guy dressed in his ninja gear with the "Alpha" patch on his shoulder (something tells me it probably isn't very healthy to go around Russia claiming to be "Alpha" with out being "Alpha").


Maybe a Varyag?

Yeah, or a Grach. As I recall, the Viking (Varyag) is for civilian use while the Grach is the military variant? Not sure what the differences are? :confused:

[YVK]

What % if these guys in the video are RU.gov and RU.mil? Looks like most of them. Especially the guy dressed in his ninja gear with the "Alpha" patch on his shoulder (something tells me it probably isn't very healthy to go around Russia claiming to be "Alpha" with out being "Alpha").

:

You made me watch that video:).

It is a commercial of what they called the largest in Europe indoors shooting center. The ninja guys were in fact Alpha, there was a little subtitle saying Alpha trained there. The mix though seems to be mostly civilians, based on narration and poster for gift certificates. The pistol that dude behind the counter pulled from a holster he called "Viking"; now I need to go find what it is.

I suspect, based on your screen name, that you already knew all that..

[Suvorov]

You made me watch that video:).

It is a commercial of what they called the largest in Europe indoors shooting center. The ninja guys were in fact Alpha, there was a little subtitle saying Alpha trained there. The mix though seems to be mostly civilians, based on narration and poster for gift certificates. The pistol that dude behind the counter pulled from a holster he called "Viking"; now I need to go find what it is.

I suspect, based on your screen name, that you already knew all that..

I can read Russian (slowly - I know Cyrillic), but when they get up to speed on their talking I get lost in the individual words but get the basic direction of the conversation. My father was from Russia, and I spoke it some as a kid. Not around Russian much anymore but am around Serbian, which is similar enough to confuse the hell out of me. :p

From what I gather, the "Viking" is a civilian variant of the "Grach" pistol that was developed to replace the Makarov. Seems like it may have gone the way of the AN-94 as being officially adopted but never issued. I understand the FSB and units like Alpha use the Glock so it already has a foot in the door. If Russia is wanting to mass produce Glocks, it would be a pretty good indication that the Viking/Grach is not going to ever replace the Makarov.

Then again, maybe Putin is secretly writing a 2nd Amendment for the Russian people ;)

[YVK]

Then again, maybe Putin is secretly writing a 2nd Amendment for the Russian people ;)

Yep, it is right there on his agenda, just behind gay rights.

[pangloss]

Does anyone know if the report (LINK (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/06/20/russian-armed-forces-adopting-9x19mm-strizh-pistol/)) of the Russian military adopting the new Arsenal Strike One pistol was accurate? I'm very curious about this pistol, but I don't think they are being imported into the US yet.

[EMC]

YVK,

I see an opportunity for you should you ever decide to give up the health care profession. IPSC/IDPA vacation tour guide for wealthy oligarchs who want to compete in the US.

[YVK]

YVK,

I see an opportunity for you should you ever decide to give up the health care profession. IPSC/IDPA vacation tour guide for wealthy oligarchs who want to compete in the US.

Too late. Russian shooters already go to train with Manny Bragg down in Florida. 28 shooting bays surrounded by orange trees, own ammo production and national level shooter for a coach would be hard to beat.

[LOKNLOD]

Too late. Russian shooters already go to train with Manny Bragg down in Florida. 28 shooting bays surrounded by orange trees, own ammo production and national level shooter for a coach would be hard to beat.

Isn't there some legal issue with training foreign nationals? ITAR?

[YVK]

Doubt it. It is explicitly competition oriented. Manny is a national/international competition shooter, and IPSC is an international sport.

[joshs]

Doubt it. It is explicitly competition oriented. Manny is a national/international competition shooter, and IPSC is an international sport.

That doesn't really matter. Training a foreign national to "operate" a defense article is covered by the definition of "defense service." Defense articles include all small arms, but certain shotguns are exempt.

[YVK]

That doesn't really matter. Training a foreign national to "operate" a defense article is covered by the definition of "defense service." Defense articles include all small arms, but certain shotguns are exempt.

I went to read ITAR regs to mount an intelligent counterargument, saw 10 pdf files, read one, and decided to give up :). In spirit of it, it seems wrong to prohibit, say, a civilian foreign woman shooter to come and learn how to run a decidedly nonmilitary weapon from a nonmilitary setup, but law is law. Ultimately, I don't care that much.

I wonder if Slavex could provide any input on this, since I think he has brought some of US trainers to teach in Canada.

[JAD]

I've had weeks of itar training and served as a TCO pro tem, and I don't have any advice beyond saying that if I was a trainer I would /absolutely/ have a first hand discussion with a TC lawyer and probably seek confirmation from DoD. They are ratcheting up itar and commerce enforcement like a mother, and advice you got two years ago is past its stinkby date.

[Suvorov]

OK, so silly question.

Hypothetically? If I take by father in law, who is a Serbian national shooting, and let him shoot my M1 Garand, Beretta M9, and an AR15, am I violating ITAR :confused:

If while I am visiting my wife's family in Serbia, and shoot her brother in laws Glock 17, am I violating ITAR? What if I give him some shooting tips and "instruction"?

Hypothetically of course.

[YVK]

OK, so silly question.

Hypothetically? If I take by father in law, who is a Serbian national shooting, and let him shoot my M1 Garand, Beretta M9, and an AR15, am I violating ITAR :confused:

If while I am visiting my wife's family in Serbia, and shoot her brother in laws Glock 17, am I violating ITAR? What if I give him some shooting tips and "instruction"?

Hypothetically of course.

I am confused enough by the above to say anything, but I'll throw another variable into your question. Does it matter what's the source of one's expertise? If someone is a self-taught competition shooter and has never been employed by .gov, .mil, or LE, does the content of his knowledge constitute a defense article? For all we know, he may be teaching an absolute BS...

[Slavex]

What we've been told is that ITAR deals with specific types of firearms instruction and that competitive and self defense instruction are OK. Modern military tactics and small arms training are not. Then try and get them to define modern military tactics.
Last I heard Svetlana had purchased most of Team CZ from the factory and is paying them big bucks, plus all the ammo and gear they need, hotel, travel etc. She has also hired Eric Grauffel to be her personal coach, not sure what happened to Adam Tyc. She also has a personal film crew that follows her to every match, sets up cameras on every stage and has a roving crew to follow other interesting shooters at matches she attends. As a friend of mine who works for another Russian billionaire put it, "That's it? That's a cheap hobby for a billionaire's wife".
I know a lot of the guys who shoot in Russia, but have never got a clear answer on the guns they use. I've seen Vikings outside Russia at matches back in 2008, but now it's mostly Shadows and Glocks and the odd Tanfoglio in Production. SV or STI or Tanfoglio in Open. I would imagine they keep a set of guns outside the country for travel and a set of guns at the range for when they are at home. For the most part money is not an object to these guys, and they are also some of the nicest guys in the sport.

[Suvorov]

What we've been told is that ITAR deals with specific types of firearms instruction and that competitive and self defense instruction are OK. Modern military tactics and small arms training are not. Then try and get them to define modern military tactics.
Last I heard Svetlana had purchased most of Team CZ from the factory and is paying them big bucks, plus all the ammo and gear they need, hotel, travel etc. She has also hired Eric Grauffel to be her personal coach, not sure what happened to Adam Tyc. She also has a personal film crew that follows her to every match, sets up cameras on every stage and has a roving crew to follow other interesting shooters at matches she attends. As a friend of mine who works for another Russian billionaire put it, "That's it? That's a cheap hobby for a billionaire's wife".
I know a lot of the guys who shoot in Russia, but have never got a clear answer on the guns they use. I've seen Vikings outside Russia at matches back in 2008, but now it's mostly Shadows and Glocks and the odd Tanfoglio in Production. SV or STI or Tanfoglio in Open. I would imagine they keep a set of guns outside the country for travel and a set of guns at the range for when they are at home. For the most part money is not an object to these guys, and they are also some of the nicest guys in the sport.

Something tells me that Billionaires have never had a hard time procuring small arms regardless of nationality (unless they run afoul of the "powers that be").

[joshs]

Here is the applicable part of the definition of "defense service"

"The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles." 22 C.F.R. § 120.9.

As I noted before, most modern small arms fall within the definition of "defense article." I have heard (mostly secondhand) that this definition does not reflect how the State Department actually enforces ITAR, but the definition is broad enough to cover any instruction in the use or operation of handguns and rifles.

[Tamara]

This is another example of vague and overbroad regulations that create scenarios (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/search?q=itar) like bad Ayn Rand fanfic.

Are you violating ITAR by taking your foreign houseguest to the range? Depends. Is the .gov mad at you or not? If they are, then you are.


"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

[Byron]

"The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles." 22 C.F.R. § 120.9.

I find it amusing that regulations meant to stop the trafficking of arms prohibit the teaching of how to destroy arms or render them inoperable.

"Sorry, we can't teach you how to destroy a firearm: that would be aiding the enemy in the trafficking of firearms" :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Slavex]

and Canada could have just signed on to ITAR properly and we wouldn't have to put up with this crap.

[Slavex]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/27/made-in-austria-assembled-in-russia/

[Kyle Reese]

Interesting twist:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-21/gunmaker-glock-the-focus-of-putin-navalny-dispute#r=nav-r-story