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ToddG
05-19-2011, 10:05 AM
It is safe to say that I have used, abused, and broken just about all of the shot timers on the market. Over the course of two years I had four CED7000s die on me. The Pocket Pro IIs I bought fourteen months ago both died on the same day last weekend.

The shooting world needs a better shot timer.

What are some features we'd like to see? Here is a starting list from my perspective:

Durability. We use these things for outdoor sporting activities and military/LE training. They need to work in the heat and the cold, the rain, the mud, and the sand. They need to be tough enough to withstand getting dropped on concrete from shoulder height. If my cell phone and iPod can work for hours a day every day for years, I'd really like a shot timer that can put in at least 500 full days of range use before it craps out.

User interface. The current trend toward having minimal number of buttons and driving everything through complicated menus is annoying. I shouldn't have to memorize a 20-page manual to set a PAR time. The CED 6000 was one of the best for this. You could set fixed/random/instant for the buzzer and both set & clear PAR times without going into any menus. I don't mind menus for semi-permanent settings but the stuff you want to change from drill to drill should be accessible through hardware.

Display. Needs to be readable under all lighting conditions (backlight could be something that was menu-activated). Primary display should be big and readable enough for the 60-something crowd that often volunteer their time to help run matches. An option (again could be menu-driven) to display either just the overall time or a more comprehensive list of data like on a Pocket Pro II would be a plus. Seeing first shot, last split, and number of rounds fired without having to page through menus is nice.

Size & weight. As long as I can hold it in my hand and toss two in my range bag without taking up inordinate amount of space, I'm happy. The trend toward tiny little timers is probably one big reason they've become so dang fragile. I know that small is cool, but I'm not willing to compromise on durability or functionality just to have something tiny.

Sensitivity. Needs to have the ability to adjust sensitivity from as quiet as a dry-fire or airsoft shot to being useful at a public indoor range. The Pocket Pro II does this fairly well; I use mine at a very busy indoor range regularly and it picks up my pistol without picking up nearby rifles if I get the sensitivity settings right. This could be menu-driven. Bonus if you set up "profiles" so instead of changing three settings each time I could just have custom-set Indoor, Outdoor, and Dry-Fire options. Sensitivity absolutely must be adjustable digitally; one of the PACT Club Timer's and CED 6000's greatest failures is the difficulty of changing sensitivity.

Loudness. Along the same lines, it needs to be loud enough that people can hear it while wearing muffs and plugs at an indoor range. As a plus, adjustable loudness would be nice for those times when someone wants to dry-fire in the basement without shaking the house with a monstrous BEEEEEEP! every ten seconds.

Memory. The timer needs to record multiple runs. The Pocket Pro II's lack of this capability is a major negative. The CED7000 handles this well.

Data transfer. Bluetooth connectivity would be ideal. Failing that, how about storing data on a micro-SD card? I'd like the ability to take, say, all of my students' FAST runs and just dump them into my computer. Better yet, Jesus will personally come down and shake your hand if you can integrate it with my iPad. Plus that would open up a whole world of app possibilities to partner with your awesome new shot timer. Heck, even a mini-USB port would be better than nothing.

Battery. Absolutely positively must take common batteries available at 7-11 or the local grocery store. 9V or AA are best. Personally, I'd be fine with 123s as well but not everyone keeps 50 of those lying around. Rechargeables are right out. No matter how long you think they'll hold a charge, they won't. And I don't want to drag another charging cable everywhere I go. Nothing recharges as fast as a battery swap.

Price. Honestly, I don't care. If you could provide all of this wish list for $350 -- which is about three times the price of a current timer -- I'd buy two. If you could do it all for $200 or so, most people would be willing to spend the extra $70-80 for that level of functionality and durability.

LittleLebowski
05-19-2011, 10:18 AM
Bluetooth syncing via an app on your mobile device is long overdue. If said app integrated with say...Dropbox or any other type of cloud storage, that would be perfect.

Kyle Reese
05-19-2011, 10:19 AM
Any timer that shaves .5 seconds off any of my runs...... :cool:

MDS
05-19-2011, 11:18 AM
Needs to support Mississippi timing - I just did the FAST in 0.63 seconds. Approximately.

In all seriousness, though. I'm not Todd, I don't make a living with my shot timer. But I'd buy at least one, even at the $350 price tag, if it had all these features. I use my shot timer every day, and for everything I do with it, I'm always compromising or working around a limitation of the timer. Doing dry fire? No option but par. Doing live fire? Everybody with a rifle is now a jerk. Want to track my progress? This is the only hobby on the planet where a pad and pencil is the most reasonable option for storing a day's worth of data. (On this last point, I'm seriously considering an iPad specifically so I can transcribe my times only once. It's ridiculous that I have to transcribe them at all...)

joshs
05-19-2011, 11:20 AM
In addition to the features already mentioned, I liked having "spy mode" on the CED 7000. Spy mode allowed me to gather data at matches without bothering the RO to look at the stage timer.

vecdran
05-19-2011, 11:21 AM
A CED7000, that doesn't feel like it's made from the parts of a cheap chinese knockoff gameboy, with a common replaceable lithium ion battery, say, from an android phone, so it can be ordered and just swapped when it finally tops out its recharge cycles, and the ability to transfer it's recorded date in real time or off its memory, through a cable, an attachable bluetooth module, or the microSD card that's crammed in the back.

All of this technology currently exists and is common in the cell phone world. I'd happily pay ~$350 for a timer like this.

I always find it depressing whenever I pick up any timer. They all look and function as if they were designed and made in 1995, if not earlier. (Except the CED7000, that looks like it was made in 2001 in Taiwan.)

jar
05-19-2011, 11:25 AM
Going along with the profiles, there should be an obvious 'easy button' for competition ROs who pick up the timer for the first time in a match. This should set the sensitivity appropriately for an outdoor pistol bay, disable any par times, set instant start, turn the beep volume to max,and put the display in 'time as big as possible and no other clutter' mode.

Adding to your durability standards, make it waterproof to IPX7 (immersion at 1m for 30 min).

My day job is writing software for devices like this, so if you decide to make an official PFC timer, give me a shout.

ETA: reasonable people can differ on rechargable vs battery. Maybe an internal charging circuit for NiMH AAs?

MDS
05-19-2011, 11:34 AM
My day job is writing software for devices like this, so if you decide to make an official PFC timer, give me a shout.

Maybe we could recruit some folks from, e.g., hackaday to make an open-source, community-designed shot timer that doesn't suck?

Jay Cunningham
05-19-2011, 11:36 AM
Must have the following features:


foliage dark taupe
aggressive stippling
free floating
M1913 rail
kydex AIWB case
interchangeable backstraps

vecdran
05-19-2011, 11:43 AM
Don't forget an ASAP plate, so I can wear it on my super sweet Magpul sling!

orionz06
05-19-2011, 12:27 PM
On a serious note, why not consult some elecro geeks, give them a timer and the promise of a check (I am sure there are enough guys here to buy one) if they can produce results. A basic timer seems pretty simple to get working and we have multiple examples to tear apart and get an idea of the guts needed. Give them a footprint to work within and let them have at it.

I know mechanical stuff, not electro, but I also do not see why it could not store data or even transmit to any paired bluetooth device. CSV data would be plenty for me, with a timestamp.


Must have the following features:


foliage dark taupe
aggressive stippling
free floating
M1913 rail
kydex AIWB case
interchangeable backstraps


You forgot ambidextrous and molle capable. Lightweight would be ideal, along with a midlength piston gas system.

Honestly though, it seems like it might not be too hard to design one and have it made... :cool:

Jay Cunningham
05-19-2011, 12:29 PM
I knew this thread would catch your eye.


Forum Shot Timer project

I know a few people were interested in having something like this done, so I figured a collaborative thread would work out well for this purpose....

orionz06
05-19-2011, 12:32 PM
ETA: reasonable people can differ on rechargable vs battery. Maybe an internal charging circuit for NiMH AAs?

Off the shelf common batteries would be ideal.

ETA: Missed this in the OP.

Cowtown44
05-19-2011, 12:37 PM
I'd pay 200 just for improvements in durability, sensitivity and loudness adjustments.

clemsontiger
05-19-2011, 01:07 PM
I'm an iOS (iPhone/iPad/etc) and Mac developer and I've considered writing a shooting related app in the past, part of which would include a shot timer. I realize that there are already some shot timer apps available in the App Store, but I haven't had the chance to try any of them, since I usually shoot at an indoor range (and I assume there's no use even trying it there).

So my question is, what are the problems with existing iPhone shot timers available? Are they not accurate? Not easy to use?

For those of you without an iPhone already, if you are willing to spend $300 on a shot timer, would you be willing to spend $250 on an iPod Touch and $?? on an app, if the app worked just as well as (or better than) a dedicated shot timer device?

orionz06
05-19-2011, 01:09 PM
So my question is, what are the problems with existing iPhone shot timers available? Are they not accurate? Not easy to use?


For me the timer would not pick up all of the shots. I suspect this has more to do with the microphone than anything as it would vary by case.

lairdb
05-19-2011, 01:13 PM
The amount of work (and expense) necessary for adding robustness is... non-obvious. More importantly, it's on the fixed-cost side of the net COGS -- all the example devices are manufactured in the millions, allowing the fixed costs to be a few pennies out of the total COGS.

Everything in this smacks of letting someone with a bigger target market do the hardware development, and then leveraging their hardware platform -- but the existence of CED and PACT suggest that device development is at least marginally do-able.

What do we imagine is the 3 year market size?
Is the market price-elastic? (I.e. does the market size, in units, change significantly for a $150 unit vs. a $225 unit, or will you still sell about X units, regardless of price?)

xpo172
05-19-2011, 01:16 PM
The iPhone 4 has a hardware "issue" that prohibits all of the current shot timer apps from working. It doesn't appear to be something that can be overcome with an app.

I would rather buy an iOS device and use an app for this, even if I have to get a non contract iPhone 3gs or iTouch. That way all of these cool features could be added over time.



I'm an iOS (iPhone/iPad/etc) and Mac developer and I've considered writing a shooting related app in the past, part of which would include a shot timer. I realize that there are already some shot timer apps available in the App Store, but I haven't had the chance to try any of them, since I usually shoot at an indoor range (and I assume there's no use even trying it there).

So my question is, what are the problems with existing iPhone shot timers available? Are they not accurate? Not easy to use?

For those of you without an iPhone already, if you are willing to spend $300 on a shot timer, would you be willing to spend $250 on an iPod Touch and $?? on an app, if the app worked just as well as (or better than) a dedicated shot timer device?

MDS
05-19-2011, 01:16 PM
On a serious note, why not consult some elecro geeks [...]

I did my soliciting for the day. (http://forums.hackaday.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=764)

TheRoland
05-19-2011, 01:42 PM
My day job is writing software for devices like this, so if you decide to make an official PFC timer, give me a shout.


Me too. I've actually been debating mocking up one of these for a while now, and abandoned the idea due to the target market being too small to justify the work.

Small world, but Jar, you and I shoot with some board-fabricators...


The amount of work (and expense) necessary for adding robustness is... non-obvious.

This was essentially my issue. The board design and layout isn't that difficult, until you start thinking about vibe, shock, and ESD.


bluetooth

Some pretty serious implications for processing power, power use, and dedicated chip cost. Probably layout complications, too.

Shelley Rae
05-19-2011, 01:42 PM
We don't need to redesign anything. They just need to put Snake on the CED 7000.

lairdb
05-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Everything in this smacks of letting someone with a bigger target market do the hardware development, and then leveraging their hardware platform -- but the existence of CED and PACT suggest that device development is at least marginally do-able.

(Following up my own note; sorry.)

Couple of different angles:

Develop device:

Quick assumptions on developing a hardware device (rather than an app for someone else's):
- Trade repair-ability for robustness.
- Communication is important for downloading and/or live feed and upgrade-ability.
- Minimal capitalization for development.

Quick-starting: Use the ArduinoBT as the development platform. (Benefits: bluetooth; analog and digital inputs and outputs; strong development suite and community.) Add: LCD display module, microphone, 4 or 6 buttons, one horn. Make provision for stop-plate jacks, but don't include in the base build.

Development target hardware: ~$500 bench cost, plus some assembly labor. That allows for some slop, so presume that fielded prototypes for testing and evaluation run about $300.

Final production: Some engineering investment comes in here, to duplicate the ArduinoBT circuitry (it's open source, but you'd want to redo the layout to add your own components and optimize for production) and to build a switch array and body. Build with a battery tube taking 2xAA and a screw-on o-ring sealed cap. Epoxy pot the whole thing; the only exposed parts are the display-and-button assembly, the horn and the battery cap. SWAG at the naked COGS is about $110. Add $20 for retail packaging and shipping overpack, you're at $130 sitting on the dock ready to ship. You need at least 40% GM, distributor and retailer each need at least 20%. $130*1.4=$182 to the distributor; $182*1.25*1.25=$284. $299 retail; markdowns are the retailer's problem.

All of this assumes that development labor is essentially free, or at least deferred compensation to be paid back over time out of the profit.


Develop software for another device:

[Fairly obvious (both upsides and downsides); left mostly as an exercise. In your answer, do not neglect the necessity of application design, be sure to address compromises inherent in using a non-purpose-built target; be sure to address licencing costs. Neglect for the moment any issues of cross-platform development and dependency on third-party hardware.]

Don't develop:

Crowdsource the requirements and application design. We have a ready-made crowd here who are SMEs in multiple possible fields-of-use. Iterate and refine, with the engineering and business literate members being the Designated Grinches.

Once we reach a requirements set and UI design that appears to be there, Todd approaches CED, PACT, etc. with an offer to license the design and his endorsement. Let them leverage their existing hardware and firmware groups, manufacturing partners, and distribution channels.

jar
05-19-2011, 02:47 PM
On a serious note, why not consult some elecro geeks, give them a timer and the promise of a check (I am sure there are enough guys here to buy one) if they can produce results. A basic timer seems pretty simple to get working and we have multiple examples to tear apart and get an idea of the guts needed. Give them a footprint to work within and let them have at it.


It's not cheap though. I work for a contract product design house. This kind of product is exactly the sort of thing we do. Off the top of my head, I'd ballpark the design work in the $100k-$150k range.



Small world, but Jar, you and I shoot with some board-fabricators...

This was essentially my issue. The board design and layout isn't that difficult, until you start thinking about vibe, shock, and ESD.

Some pretty serious implications for processing power, power use, and dedicated chip cost. Probably layout complications, too.

It's funny, I don't really know what most of the local shooters do. It would probably be a great networking opportunity if we talked about it more.

The board design and software is definitely the easy part, but that's probably partially colored by the fact it's the part we know how to do.

Bluetooth is pretty expensive to put in a product at this volume. There are two broad approaches, buy a ready made bluetooth module and integrate it or buy a bt radio chip and roll your own. Modules run about $20 in quantity. Rolling your own is cheaper, but there's a much larger development cost, FCC testing, etc. You'd need a market of at least 10k/year to consider it.

NickA
05-19-2011, 02:48 PM
I'm guessing an electronics-inclined friend of Todd's is or will soon be in a basement somewhere working on this. Anyone care to start an over/under on time until the next gadget announcement? ;)

GooberTim
05-19-2011, 02:52 PM
For me the timer would not pick up all of the shots. I suspect this has more to do with the microphone than anything as it would vary by case.

Same for mine.....

JodyH
05-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Ad addendum to Todd's list:
Display: Polarized glasses friendly. I hate the rainbow effect the new timers get when you're wearing polarized glasses.

SecondsCount
05-19-2011, 04:35 PM
.......

Quick-starting: Use the ArduinoBT as the development platform. (Benefits: bluetooth; analog and digital inputs and outputs; strong development suite and community.) Add: LCD display module, microphone, 4 or 6 buttons, one horn. Make provision for stop-plate jacks, but don't include in the base build.
......


The Arduino looks like an interesting setup. My experience is with the Intel 8051 and Microchip PIC products but that was 15 years ago. A lot has changed since then.

The biggest concern I can see is the speed of the inputs, especially when timing to .01 second resolution.

TheRoland
05-19-2011, 05:05 PM
The biggest concern I can see is the speed of the inputs, especially when timing to .01 second resolution.

Pfft. :o Ten milliseconds is an eternity, easily handled in software, unless we try to do lots of other things simultaneously.


The board design and software is definitely the easy part, but that's probably partially colored by the fact it's the part we know how to do.

Heh, this is true.

jar
05-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Pfft. :o Ten milliseconds is an eternity, easily handled in software, unless we try to do lots of other things simultaneously.


Heh, this is true.

I'm currently working on something that times down to 333ns. It could easily go to 1/4 that if necessary. Actually, it just occurred to me I could use this as a shot timer. It's an ultrasound range measurement system. It does sound pulse threshold detection in hardware with a software controlled threshold. Replace the ultrasound transducer with a microphone and you're there. Of course it can only generate a square wave beep, which would sound pretty nasty.

ETA: my brief glance at arduino says it's great for hobbyists, but I wouldn't use it in a commercial product

lairdb
05-19-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm currently working on something that times down to 333ns. It could easily go to 1/4 that if necessary. Actually, it just occurred to me I could use this as a shot timer. It's an ultrasound range measurement system. It does sound pulse threshold detection in hardware with a software controlled threshold. Replace the ultrasound transducer with a microphone and you're there. Of course it can only generate a square wave beep, which would sound pretty nasty.

Doing the threshold detection in hardware would unload the processor a LOT, but it would also make it a little less flexible. In my noodling, the only specific-purpose hardware was the horn -- and if we could get decent volume out of a speaker, that could be general-purpose too. (And it's not like the processor is doing a lot else; the ATMega is ludicrously overpowered for a shot timer. PIC would be a cheaper choice if variable costs were pivotal -- but using the Arduino building blocks would be *so* quick a path to having a mature and robust development target.)

(In fact, the project might be able to recoup some costs by selling the resulting device to the Arduino hobby community without the shot timer software as a general-purpose platform.)

(jar, how are you handling echo cancellation? Echo cancellation and auto-sensitivity are bouncing in the back of my head as the tricky bits; the rest is dirt-simple.)

P.S. for the geek squad: if you haven't read Cory Doctorow's Makers (http://craphound.com/makers/about/), give it a try.

lairdb
05-19-2011, 06:01 PM
ETA: my brief glance at arduino says it's great for hobbyists, but I wouldn't use it in a commercial product

Mmmm -- for volume production, no. For a regulated device, no. For prototyping a quick-to-market that you might ever sell 5,000 -- or just 50?

I suspect most of us have used chipmaker's reference designs and then added and deleted circuitry as appropriate; think of it that way.

TheRoland
05-19-2011, 07:28 PM
It does sound pulse threshold detection in hardware with a software controlled threshold.

I'm assuming that's an FPGA, to make those timing numbers, and to do basic signal processing (echos, filtering, etc) no? Lots of power use?


Arduino

While I don't know, I'd have serious doubts about shock, vibe, and ESD on this kit. You'd have to make a case that would shield the heck out of it.

ChrisG
05-19-2011, 10:14 PM
Maybe the way to go is to develop a seperate piece of hardware consisting of a microphone (and maybe buzzer also) that can connect via bluetooth to a smartphone, which handles the processing and user interface. This would keep harware costs down, and keep the seperate mic fairly future-proof as processors develop. Having a seperate mic would also allow for several convenient configurations. For example, if I was doing solo drills on an indoor range I could strap the mic to my wrist like a watch and leave my phone on the bench between strings. RO's could slip the phone into a pocket after the buzzer and point only the mic at the shooter.

One feature I'd really like to see built into an shot timer app, with or without a seperate mic, is the ability to capture video with the running time and last three split times superimposed in the corners of the screen on playback. I think this would be an extremely valuable performance anaysis tool.

orionz06
05-19-2011, 10:25 PM
Maybe the way to go is to develop a seperate piece of hardware consisting of a microphone (and maybe buzzer also) that can connect via bluetooth to a smartphone, which handles the processing and user interface. This would keep harware costs down, and keep the seperate mic fairly future-proof as processors develop. Having a seperate mic would also allow for several convenient configurations. For example, if I was doing solo drills on an indoor range I could strap the mic to my wrist like a watch and leave my phone on the bench between strings. RO's could slip the phone into a pocket after the buzzer and point only the mic at the shooter.

Pistol-Dongle.com?

This idea would allow for the software to be continually updated via some app store. I think the hardware for the timer is simple, speaker-microphone-power (with circuits and what not). If you don't have a smart phone there are far more pressing issues than the timer you are using anyway.

SecondsCount
05-19-2011, 10:41 PM
Maybe the way to go is to develop a seperate piece of hardware consisting of a microphone (and maybe buzzer also) that can connect via bluetooth to a smartphone, which handles the processing and user interface. This would keep harware costs down, and keep the seperate mic fairly future-proof as processors develop. Having a seperate mic would also allow for several convenient configurations. For example, if I was doing solo drills on an indoor range I could strap the mic to my wrist like a watch and leave my phone on the bench between strings. RO's could slip the phone into a pocket after the buzzer and point only the mic at the shooter.

One feature I'd really like to see built into an shot timer app, with or without a seperate mic, is the ability to capture video with the running time and last three split times superimposed in the corners of the screen on playback. I think this would be an extremely valuable performance anaysis tool.

That is the idea I was thinking of a while back. I have an old Palm IIIc with a serial port and was going to build a PIC with a serial connection and microphone to interface to it. My thought was to build a little tray that held the Palm and the PIC/timing circuit then use the touchscreen on the Palm to start the timer, change settings, etc.

Something similar could be developed for Smartphones with a bluetooth interface. Make the timer into the shape of a typical phone with a simple strap or something that could hold it in place. The cool part is that you could do all kinds of stuff with a database in the phone to store the timing data.

Slavex
05-20-2011, 02:03 AM
the new 7000 Pro from CED will have a ton of these features included in it. Release is not until the fall. I'd suggest, as he's the most open to it, emailing him through CED's website and offereing up your suggestions.

jar
05-20-2011, 05:55 PM
(jar, how are you handling echo cancellation? Echo cancellation and auto-sensitivity are bouncing in the back of my head as the tricky bits; the rest is dirt-simple.)


The distance we're measuring in this application doesn't change very quickly, so we just tune the threshold so it trips on the first echo after each pulse. The current phase is just a bench-test setup so our customer can prove out their idea and figure out how much we need to do in the actual product.


Mmmm -- for volume production, no. For a regulated device, no. For prototyping a quick-to-market that you might ever sell 5,000 -- or just 50?

I suspect most of us have used chipmaker's reference designs and then added and deleted circuitry as appropriate; think of it that way.

Yeah, I've proof-of-concepted things on eval boards all the time. I just write C on the bare metal though, not using anything like arduino's higher level language.


I'm assuming that's an FPGA, to make those timing numbers, and to do basic signal processing (echos, filtering, etc) no? Lots of power use?

While I don't know, I'd have serious doubts about shock, vibe, and ESD on this kit. You'd have to make a case that would shield the heck out of it.
That's just how fast the timer is clocked, the threshold detection hardware isn't nearly that fast. I was just making a point that timing stuff in the milliseconds on a modern processor is trivial.

ESD is easy as long as you don't need any external connections, as long as you don't design the box like a monkey. I haven't done anything that needed to pass a shake table or anything like that.


Processor wise, everyone has their favorite platform. My default is the TI MSP430. Power usage is low, and the design is very well thought out and intuitive to use, unlike some other micros from Arizona. It's really easy to move up and down the line without rewriting much.

jslaker
05-20-2011, 07:55 PM
Pistol-Dongle.com?

This idea would allow for the software to be continually updated via some app store. I think the hardware for the timer is simple, speaker-microphone-power (with circuits and what not). If you don't have a smart phone there are far more pressing issues than the timer you are using anyway.

My understanding is that Android currently has some latency issues with audio. No idea if USB polling for the upcoming accessory API would be sufficient. Can't speak for other platforms.

Lomshek
05-20-2011, 09:37 PM
The electronics are way beyond me but here are two things I see being handy.

1) Use AA batteries that can be easily replaced if they die. 3 or 4 AA's should provide all the juice you need and spares are easily kept. In cold weather you can run lithiums (or anytime you want them). This avoids the whole problem of a non-replaceable dying mid way through the day.

2) Design a replaceable armored "skin" like the CED 7000 but thicker so it can be cushioned against drops.

JLM
06-06-2011, 07:04 PM
Well Todd, here I am a bit late to the (your) party but at least I finally showed up....

I remember emailing you about this about a year ago and essentially your answer was nothing was really worth a damn. I'm still on the market for something so it will be interesting to see what you can come up with.

My friend just ordered a PACT (at least I think that's what he got) so will be interesting
to see how it works....or doesn't.....

ToddG
06-06-2011, 07:11 PM
I remember emailing you about this about a year ago and essentially your answer was nothing was really worth a damn.

The first time I read this, I thought it said "... your answer really wasn't worth a damn." :cool:

So sorry about the five hundred demerits. I owe you a beer.

jlw
06-06-2011, 07:19 PM
Data transfer would be the feature I would most like to see.

JLM
06-08-2011, 10:59 PM
The first time I read this, I thought it said "... your answer really wasn't worth a damn." :cool:

So sorry about the five hundred demerits. I owe you a beer.

ROFL. It's all good Brother! Looks like you have a nice little forum going here, I will have to visit more often. With a 1200 yard range 5 miles down the road its hard to find time anymore to get on the interwebs....

robin
07-15-2011, 07:58 AM
Hello,

My name is Robin, dynamic shooting enthusiast from the Netherlands (Europe), Stumbled on this thread while searching for a shot-timer that will allow me to export the shot data to a PC.

By the looks of this thread i am not the only one.

Has anyone here contacted CED yet? I did a a couple of weeks ago to aks if they could look into the possibilities to put a USB RF device on the market. The device i had in mind would pick up the same signal that is now send to the bigboard, but instead of just displaying it, log it to a file/excel-sheet/whatever.

This way, everybody can still use his CED7000 shot timer (which im very happy with) and people interested in analyzing their shot data in detail could buy the USB device. The technology does'nt sound like very complicated for someone with some electronics skills.

Their reply was that it was not going to happen. I was also the first ever to request such a feature and they were unsure if there would be enough demand for it to justify the development costs.

My plan now is to try and create a custom set of RF transmitter and USB RF receiver. The transmitter will be replacing the CED RF Transmitter. This will make my bigboard useless, but i can live with that.

I am hoping something like this will work
http://www.amber-wireless.de/278-0-Konnex--KNX.html

But i'll be doing some further research first, a set of the Amber Wireless thingies will cost about € 100,- (roughly $140,-).


best regards,
robin

Slavex
07-15-2011, 02:42 PM
If you have DAA IPSC as a friend on Facebook you can see video of the new CED timer. Designed more for IPSC, but with wireless printing, memory, plus the ability to upload and download data, it looks pretty cool.

fuse
07-16-2011, 04:27 PM
If you have DAA IPSC as a friend on Facebook you can see video of the new CED timer. Designed more for IPSC, but with wireless printing, memory, plus the ability to upload and download data, it looks pretty cool.

looks like a certain corporation read this thread.

Slavex
07-16-2011, 07:13 PM
Charles' plans for the update to the 7000 predated this forums existence, however he has been listening to numerous other forums input as well as Saul's input for a number of years.

Slavex
09-15-2011, 04:25 AM
more info on the new CED700oPro

http://www.doublealpha.biz/timers/CED7000PRO.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lJtj-_qYwj4

rsa-otc
09-15-2011, 06:03 AM
Wow.

I may have to give serious concideration to upgrading from my 25 plus year old pearl timer. :cool:

Hon I now know what I want for christmas!:p

Slavex
09-15-2011, 06:30 AM
I've preordered one already and will be playing with it a lot when it arrives. I will review it candidly.

ToddG
09-15-2011, 08:06 AM
I look forward to your write-up, Slavex. The features look great, but I managed to break four CED7000 timers in less than two years and would be very wary of getting another.

orionz06
09-15-2011, 08:11 AM
FYI, that is $200 US dollars.

Seems pretty slick.

Slavex
09-22-2011, 02:22 AM
I've had my 7000 since they came out, I sent it back about a month to get the RF chip in it. Not sure it was the same one I got back or not, but whichever, it has lasted 5 years? Both top buttons stopped working last year. I took it apart and both macro switches were coming apart. Some glue and thin cardboard to jam everything back in place and its golden.
This new timer is aluminum front body, and I think platic back. Hopefully this extra care in the build translates into better quality internals.

ToddG
10-06-2011, 08:19 PM
Great googly moogly. The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Invisible Pink Unicorn have teamed up to curse me.

The two new Pocket Pro II's that I bought just six months ago are both screwed up already.

One is completely useless. Put a battery in and it starts counting upward like a TV timebomb in reverse. Also, only one of the directional buttons works. When you try to set the echo and sensitivity, you have to scroll from 99 (99 sensitivity, that's right... it's only supposed to go to 20!) back down to the number you want. Completely FUBAR.

The other won't shut off unless you take the battery out. Otherwise it appears to work properly for now.

So I'm down to one quasi-dependable shot timer for class this weekend.

I absolutely frakking hate the shot timer manufacturers. I'm beginning to think Jeff Cooper knew what he was doing when he used a stopwatch.

SecondsCount
10-06-2011, 09:35 PM
Great googly moogly. The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Invisible Pink Unicorn have teamed up to curse me.

The two new Pocket Pro II's that I bought just six months ago are both screwed up already.

One is completely useless. Put a battery in and it starts counting upward like a TV timebomb in reverse. Also, only one of the directional buttons works. When you try to set the echo and sensitivity, you have to scroll from 99 (99 sensitivity, that's right... it's only supposed to go to 20!) back down to the number you want. Completely FUBAR.

The other won't shut off unless you take the battery out. Otherwise it appears to work properly for now.

So I'm down to one quasi-dependable shot timer for class this weekend.

I absolutely frakking hate the shot timer manufacturers. I'm beginning to think Jeff Cooper knew what he was doing when he used a stopwatch.

I will have my Pact timer there in case you need one.

ToddG
10-06-2011, 09:39 PM
I appreciate it. Seriously. Though you may not want me to touch it, since I apparently have the world's worst case of metastatic shot timer cancer.

Also, despite myself I just pre-ordered a 7000 Pro. I know it will break and I'll feel like an idiot for paying $200 for it.

Durable. Loud. Easy to use. Is that really so frakking much to ask?

fuse
10-12-2011, 09:24 AM
So obviously it would seem all shot timers fail in the durability category.

I have read the pocket pro 2 has an inferior battery connection. Instead of the normal 9v 'plug', it uses some sort of spring loaded clip type connector.

Do you think this is what failed on one of your timers?

JV_
10-12-2011, 09:26 AM
I have read the pocket pro 2 has an inferior battery connection. Instead of the normal 9v 'plug', it uses some sort of spring loaded clip type connector.

Do you think this is what failed on one of your timers?

When the battery contacts lose their spring and no longer touch the battery, you can wedge something small (like a dime) between the base of the battery and the case. It pushes the battery closer to the contacts.

fuse
10-12-2011, 09:36 AM
Basically, I am pissed I can't do the DotW this week since I don't have a proper shot timer.

I pretty much only shoot at a rifle-infested indoor range, and so it would seem to me that digital sensitivity adjustment is a must. Whatever I buy would be worthless if it's constantly picking up the AK two lanes over.

Does anyone use the PACT club 3 indoors? Seems to be a decent unit, but the sensitivity adjustment has me a bit worried.

The ppII does this well, but the battery connection sort of kills it for me.

The ced7000 also has digital sensitivity adjustment, but I don't care for the proprietary battery.

Besides all of them having durability issues, it's as if they all are missing one key feature.

JV_
10-12-2011, 09:38 AM
Does anyone use the PACT club 3 indoors? Seems to be a decent unitYes, it sucks for indoor use unless everyone is shooting pistols.

fuse
10-12-2011, 09:39 AM
When the battery contacts lose their spring and no longer touch the battery, you can wedge something small (like a dime) between the base of the battery and the case. It pushes the battery closer to the contacts.

Cool.

OK, makes me think I should go ahead and get one since it has all the other features.

I bet mine lasts at least a little longer than a certain other member here...

ToddG
10-12-2011, 10:26 AM
Both of my first two PP2s had the battery connection issue and were "repaired" via judicious application of pasters in the battery compartment. Then they both failed on a more serious level. The seriously borked one I have now isn't related to the battery as best I can tell, but I'll play around with it. The remaining "mostly good" one worked this past weekend but now there is an area of wet/damaged pixels covering about 15% of the screen.

The fact that I'm actually anxious to get my 7000 Pro after seeing four 7000s die in the course of a year is a sad, sad testament.

fuse
10-12-2011, 10:58 AM
So they all suck.

But it's impossible to not have one. The sweet target system @ the NRA range can only do much.

What should I buy?

JV_
10-12-2011, 11:00 AM
I'd get one through Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/general/return.aspx


Brownells guarantees 100% satisfaction on every item you purchase. If you buy a product from Brownells and decide you don’t need it, don’t want it, or just don’t like it, we’ll take it back any time; no questions asked. We guarantee your satisfaction 100% forever.

[snip]

100% Satisfaction-Guaranteed
Any reason, or no reason, is okay
Return privileges are good forever
Authorization numbers not needed

ToddG
10-12-2011, 11:07 AM
The sweet target system @ the NRA range can only do much.

Actually, except insofar as you want to compare yourself to others based on known drills, the system at the NRA Range far surpasses having a shot timer. SLG and I used to use what was essentially a 4.75 second exposure time when shooting the F.A.S.T. and never worried about anything other than "shot it clean" or "didn't shoot it clean" within that time limit.

fuse
10-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Cool.

PPII via Brownells it is.

When do you expect your 7000pro, TLG? And can we start a pool for how long it will last?
I say we do a classic over-under.

Over-under 9 months?

fuse
10-12-2011, 11:17 AM
Actually, except insofar as you want to compare yourself to others based on known drills, the system at the NRA Range far surpasses having a shot timer. SLG and I used to use what was essentially a 4.75 second exposure time when shooting the F.A.S.T. and never worried about anything other than "shot it clean" or "didn't shoot it clean" within that time limit.

That's interesting. I always thought of it as an imperfect substitute.

As mentioned, I can't exactly do this week's drill of the week without one. I could set the target exposure for the maximum time to get an intermediate score for each string and work from there I suppose, but timing it seems like it would be much more efficient.

ToddG
10-12-2011, 11:43 AM
When do you expect your 7000pro, TLG?

The folks at Competitive Edge called me on Friday to make sure I knew the timer wouldn't be available until "around" the end of this month.


And can we start a pool for how long it will last?

Knock yourselves out. The problem with an over-under is that you'll get a lot of winners. Better to go with the "closest without going over" type thing, IMHO.


That's interesting. I always thought of it as an imperfect substitute.

As mentioned, I can't exactly do this week's drill of the week without one. I could set the target exposure for the maximum time to get an intermediate score for each string and work from there I suppose, but timing it seems like it would be much more efficient.

You're right, for measuring yourself like that, it's not as useful. But other than to share stats with others, that's not particularly important. Pushing yourself to achieve something in a given time period is much more beneficial. For example, think about a Bill Drill. You could do fifty Bill Drills and try to get the best possible time each rep, or you could set the turning target to a little under your average Bill Drill and then try fifty times to outperform your previous average. In my experience, the latter approach leads to faster skill-building.

fuse
10-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Good to know.

EricP
10-12-2011, 05:21 PM
Yes, it sucks for indoor use unless everyone is shooting pistols.

I've got a Pact that picks up echos. I can be alone on the (indoor) range, shoot a FAST and end up with 12 shots recorded. The 0.01 second splits are amusing.

If I'm using it indoors now, I'll just set a par time.

John Hearne
10-15-2011, 12:28 PM
My CED-6000, that I've had since 1998 or so, is still ticking along. It isn't svelte but it works.

fuse
10-19-2011, 09:17 AM
My pp2 should be here in a couple days.

Can someone who uses a pp2 at an indoor range post the sensitivity settings that have worked well for you, so I can get a running start? Would appreciate it.

joshs
10-19-2011, 09:37 AM
My pp2 should be here in a couple days.

Can someone who uses a pp2 at an indoor range post the sensitivity settings that have worked well for you, so I can get a running start? Would appreciate it.

2 or 3

ToddG
10-19-2011, 10:57 AM
Same as joshs. For the NRA Range, if the guy in the lane next to you is pushing his muzzle well past the barrier and/or has a comp on his long gun, there's little you can do. Otherwise, "3" normally works for me.

fuse
10-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Thanks gents.

fuse
10-21-2011, 12:57 PM
PP2 arrived today. Pretty excited.

Just so I'm not missing anything, there is no way to turn this off, correct? It just powers down after 10 minutes..

joshs
10-21-2011, 01:01 PM
PP2 arrived today. Pretty excited.

Just so I'm not missing anything, there is no way to turn this off, correct? It just powers down after 10 minutes..

Yes.

rsa-otc
10-29-2011, 09:42 AM
Maybe I missed this in a previous post: Can anyone tell me what models have the ability to use ear buds. I have trying to use par times in my indoor range training and I don't want to annoy the folks on either side of me with the constant beeps. So if I can keep it private so much the better. Right now I'm using the andriod IPSC Shot timer app, but it works on the on and off basis as well as the Par settings are in full seconds, I can either set it for 1 or 2 seconds but not 1.5.:mad:

Thanks

ToddG
11-08-2011, 09:59 PM
CED 7000 PRO initial assessment:

Received my CED 7000 PRO about a week ago. First, it is freakin' huge. All of the photos on the website are taken from an angle to hide the depth of the thing. While it's slightly narrower and taller than the original CED7000, the PRO is easily twice as thick. A combination of metal and plastic construction is probably supposed to confer confidence in durability. The tiny buttons are very flimsy and the instruction manual even warns against pressing them too hard!

All of the software/computer communication features are lost to me because I have a Mac. Not only is the CED 7000 PRO not compatible with Macs, but their FAQ now features a warning that merely plugging the timer into your Mac via USB can permanently damage the shot timer.

It is completely useless at an indoor range. Unlike my Pocket Pro II with 20 sensitivity settings, the 7000PRO has only eight and at its least sensitive it still picks up something even as quiet as a .22 a few lanes over. In comparison, the Pocket Pro II will work even if there is another centerfire pistol shooter in the lane next to me or a rifle shooter just a couple lanes away. Ironically, the CED 7000 PRO has different loudness/pitch buzzers that are easier to hear in a busy indoor range than the Pocket Pro II's.

This weekend I will test it outdoors to see how it works in that environment. But because its data-collection features are unavailable to me, I cannot see why it would be worth almost twice as much as other timers.

The user interface and button arrangement are geared strictly toward IPSC competition. While I have no doubt it makes scoring IPSC matches much easier, it's a lot of buttons and menu items that I'll likely never use. It would be nice -- assuming I could actually attach it to my computer -- if the software allowed me to establish my own penalties for the A/C/D/M/P buttons. Being able to run someone on the FAST and just punch in their hits would make my life a little easier.

The CED 7000 PRO, like the standard 7000, uses a non-replaceable rechargeable battery. In other words, if you don't remember to charge it in advance, you are S-O-L at the range. That also means you are pretty much forced to drag the rather large recharging cable with you everywhere you go.

The display is very pretty. This is the first color screen on a shot timer I'm aware of. The color serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever, but it's pretty.

Right now, literally the only thing the 7000 PRO has over my Pocket Pro II is string memory. Once you hit the START button on the Pocket Pro II, you have forever lost all previous data. The CED 7000 PRO records many, many strings. Heck, it's designed to score an entire IPSC match for up to 1,500 people!

And of course, the outstanding question is whether it will be any more durable than the crappy CED 7000 series, which as mentioned at the beginning of this thread I found to be as durable as wet paper.

Unless it does something fantastic to impress me outdoors this weekend, I'll most likely return it or put it up for sale here.

And the quest for a shot timer worth a damn continues...

fuse
11-08-2011, 10:35 PM
So glad I didn't wait for this and got the ppII.

jar
11-08-2011, 11:51 PM
Yeah, I saw one for the first time this weekend and thought: DAMN, THAT's HUGE!

jar
11-10-2011, 12:13 PM
While driving in the car yesterday, I thought of a timer feature that might be useful. Auto-set sensitivity. Basically, you hold down a button while everyone around you is shooting but you aren't. Then the timer sets it's threshold some fudge factor above that.

I wonder how the shot detection works in most of the existing timers. How much is analog and how much is digital. Off the top of my head, I'd guess it's a buffer feeding the audio signal into an RC filter and then a comparator or A/D. Does anybody know?

JV_
11-10-2011, 12:17 PM
Basically, you hold down a button while everyone around you is shooting but you aren't. Then the timer sets it's threshold some fudge factor above that.

This one "learns" the sound signature:
http://www.sis.si/shot-timer/
"You have to record actual shot from gun and adjust detection settings."

ToddG - Is this the one you were describing?

ToddG
11-10-2011, 12:19 PM
There is a $10 app for Android that supposedly does something similar. It establishes a "profile" for your gun at a particular time/place and then (again... supposedly) cancels out any shots that are a different frequency, etc. I've been tempted to get it but the reviews are spotty and it doesn't appear anyone has actually put it to a real test like this. (edited to add: yes, JV, that's the one we were discussing last night)

I tried another (free) Android app last night that listens for your gunfire and sets its sensitivity accordingly. On the busy indoor range, it either set the sensitivity so high it picked up all the other shots or it set it so low it wouldn't pick up my 9mm going off less than 3' away.

rsa-otc
11-10-2011, 12:51 PM
I have 2 timer apps loaded on my droid 2. One was free and the other cost me $10. I only got the one for $10 because it promised PAR times & I could use ear buds with the phone for privacy. For those who have Motorola droids forget it. PAR times when they work are in full 1 second increments. Both the free app and the $10 app record the shot profile. Never got either to work right. Picked up everything no matter what I did. While I'm not a full IT tech it's one of the functions I do at work and I can keep a business network up and running so I'm somewhat knowledgeable with regards to electronics.

Gave up on both and went back to my 20 plus year old Pearl Timer. Put tape over the shot sensor when shooting on an indoor range and it only records my shots when shooting indoors (or someone else running a really load gun in the next booth). I'll stick with my OLD timer until it breaks or some other one that looks like it gives me more functionality comes along.

fuse
11-10-2011, 01:18 PM
The $10 android app (shot timer pro) used to have a trial version available. I actually still have the trial version on my phone. The “shot detection profile” settings do look pretty sophisticated, however I was not able to get any results indoors with others shooting around me.

My guess is that it probably works well outside, when you’re alone. We can try tomorrow in Culpeper if you’re curious.

I believe these smartphones simply don't have the specialized hardware to deal with the extreme level of amplitude discharging a firearm produces. They are designed to work with your normal speaking voice. To them, gunshots sound like white noise. Asking the phone to differentiate between your 9mm, and a .40s&w 7 feet away in another lane is like asking someone to tell you if the 500 pound bomb that landed 40 yards away is louder than the 1000 pound bomb that landed 70 yards away (illustration, not literal numbers) You won’t be able to tell, both are going to max out the dynamic range of your ears.

I have often thought someone could produce a purpose-built shot timer mic that plugs into a smartphone via USB or the iPhone connector. The mic unit’s only job would be to have digitally adjustable sensitivity like on the PP2. It would have an accompanying app that would take care of everything else.

Imagine the PP2’s fantastic ability to be used indoors, combined with your smartphone’s ability to do literally anything you want it to.

Someone get on it.

GJM
11-14-2011, 07:59 AM
So what is the best timer to buy now for personal training (not match use)?

mrozowjj
03-14-2012, 12:49 PM
I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. I'm a computer scientist by day... or I was I haven't written any serious code in a few years now but I thought about writing a program to make scoring IPSC/USPSA style matches easier to log but the idea of writing a piece of software no one was going to use prevented me from getting started.

Why can't we get a few hardware guys together with a few software guys to design a rugged shot timer that isn't total shit and has easy to use interface? If we can a few prototypes we could make a kickstarter page and get people to fund a larger production run.


Bluetooth syncing via an app on your mobile device is long overdue. If said app integrated with say...Dropbox or any other type of cloud storage, that would be perfect.

I was thinking something like that would be a good idea. Phones are generally fragile so the idea of using one as a dedicated shot timer is less than ideal but if you could use bluetooth to connect the shot timer to your pone so it logged all your times to your phone while it was still in your pocket that'd be a win. Automatically uploading the results to your Google Docs or something. For matches those that were so inclined could see how other people did on stages you haven't even shot yet.

ToddG
03-15-2012, 09:43 AM
Any electronics guys want to step up and toss this around?

jslaker
03-15-2012, 01:17 PM
This sounds like a project perfectly suited to Kickstarter if you can find people capable of handling the engineering.

RoyGBiv
03-15-2012, 01:52 PM
If someone handed me the CAD drawings, gerbers, firmware and BoM I can get it produced [domestically or overseas].

Actually, I have a resource that can design a ruggedized enclosure pretty inexpensively, given a basic set of design criteria and/or sketches.
But the board, electronics, bill of materials and firmware are not my forte.

jstyer
03-16-2012, 12:52 AM
If someone had some dimensions for the footprint for a PCB and a LCD setup they designed I could do 3D and 2D CAD drawings for an enclosure no problem... BoM would be fairly straightforward from that point as well.

But I too am lost on firmware/electronics stuff.

ETA: grammar changes

mrozowjj
03-16-2012, 02:44 PM
As was previously mentioned I write software. Depending on what kind of chip was on the unit I could be of some use.

MDS
03-16-2012, 03:18 PM
Step one would be a set of system requirements, mapped from a set of user requirements. Any PMPs on here? :p

jstyer
03-16-2012, 03:33 PM
I was an engineering PM for a summer... And I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... :D

MEH
03-16-2012, 04:20 PM
Here is a dev board that might be something to play with. TI's MSP processor's are stingy on power and pretty easy to program...

http://www.olimex.com/dev/msp-449stk2.html

Just thinkin out loud...

MDS
03-16-2012, 05:19 PM
Here is a dev board that might be something to play with. TI's MSP processor's are stingy on power and pretty easy to program...

http://www.olimex.com/dev/msp-449stk2.html

Just thinkin out loud...

Not a bad idea. It made me find this (http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/EZ430-Chronos?DCMP=Chronos&HQS=Other+OT+chronoswiki), though - a shot timer on a watch would be sweet. It doesn't have a microphone, but it does have radio. Which makes me think of a possible way to make this thing avoid registering that 44mag in the next lane. Imagine a couple or three microphones, worn in various locations on your person, all of them registering the shot sounds. You could echolocate the sound of your own gun, and make the timer register only your 9mm even in a range full of loud long guns.

I mean, may as well dream big, right?

MEH
03-16-2012, 06:49 PM
That watch has a built in accelerometer, maybe that can be used to sense the shot. Just need a buzzer.....hmmm....

jstyer
03-16-2012, 07:16 PM
I'm not sure of an accelerometer in a dynamic shooting environment... I would imagine hitting your wrist against a barrier would have shockingly close vibration characteristics to pistol recoil. I think a microphone is definitely the way to go. Also, any wrist mounted system would not exactly lend itself to being "competition friendly". Imagine having to take unstrap the timer and hand it to your buddy every time you wanted to change shooters.

ETA: Also, can we get a list going of features we would like to see? As far as data collection, monitoring features, etc...

schult
03-16-2012, 07:48 PM
I'm a software developer by trade, but I dabble in electronics as a hobby. I saw this thread a while back, and I've actually started working on a shot timer with an eye toward Todd's original requirements. I'm in the middle of a move right now, so progress is currently at a standstill, but here's what I've got:

Durability
A 4-5 foot drop onto concrete is pretty rough. An otherwise durable device could still be damaged if it lands on the wrong corner. That said, it sounds like some of the other guys on here might have solutions to that.

User Interface
This is certainly doable. I have a few of my own ideas, and I'll try and nail down what other people are looking for in another post when I have more time.

Display
Here's what I've got mounted on my breadboard right now: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/710

Size & Weight
Here's what I'm planning to use for my prototype enclosure: http://www.serpac.com/h759V.aspx

Sensitivity
This is going to be the doozy. Gunfire can easily exceed the maximum sound pressure levels of many cheap microphones. This isn't such a big deal for detecting all gunshots because you can still watch for when the mic maxes out, but it might make sorting your 9mm out from the rifle a couple lanes over a little interesting. I haven't done any testing yet to know for sure, but I'm not optimistic about it. This will probably be the hardest thing to get right.

Another issue is keeping the buzzer from triggering false shots. In my mind it isn't acceptable to miss shots fired while the buzzer is sounding, so disabling the mic when the buzzer sounds isn't an option. I'm hoping I can just rig up a high-pass filter on the audio input, but analog can be weird, and I don't have a scope to really see what's going on. If somebody has a busted shot timer that they wouldn't mind cracking open to shoot some hi-res photos, that might help me get a better idea of how others have dealt with this issue.

Loudness
I found this: http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?id=25R0677
I've tried it, and it is loud. It is clearly audible with both over and in ear protection at the same time. I haven't tried it in the middle of sustained automatic fire or anything, but I'm pretty confident it will get the job done.

For dry-fire, how do people feel about a visual-only indicator?

Memory
No problem.

Data Transfer
I can definitely do USB or microSD, and for bluetooth I can probably grab something like this: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10253

Honestly this feature isn't particularly important to me personally, and it introduces more complexity into the electronic design than about anything else, so I'm tempted to leave it out of my prototype. I realize this is going to be the make it or break it feature for some of you though, so I'll keep looking into it.

Battery
9V or 4 AA's. 9V will make it easier to keep the size down. AA's will probably mean substantially longer batter life.

Price
I'd say no problem, but there's a problem: FCC testing. As far as I can tell, this requires an investment of thousands of dollars and there's no way around it if somebody wants to do anything more than build these for testing or their own use. Maybe this is where Kickstarter or something like that comes in.

I'm am planning on publishing whatever I come up with under an open source license and letting people build their own, regardless of whether or not I find a way to meet the FCC requirements.

jslaker
03-17-2012, 03:08 PM
I'd say no problem, but there's a problem: FCC testing. As far as I can tell, this requires an investment of thousands of dollars and there's no way around it if somebody wants to do anything more than build these for testing or their own use. Maybe this is where Kickstarter or something like that comes in.

Yup, this is exactly what I meant. If you can come up with a design that's feasible for production, Kickstarter would be a great way to raise the initial capital to get through regulatory testing and initial production runs.

jar
03-17-2012, 06:55 PM
I'd say no problem, but there's a problem: FCC testing. As far as I can tell, this requires an investment of thousands of dollars and there's no way around it if somebody wants to do anything more than build these for testing or their own use. Maybe this is where Kickstarter or something like that comes in.


That's another reason to leave out the wireless feature for now, avoid needing FCC testing. Also, I believe if you buy an FCC approved wireless module, you don't need to do compliance testing on your product. A shot timer will never have enough volume to be worth rolling your own anyway.

schult
03-18-2012, 05:34 PM
That's another reason to leave out the wireless feature for now, avoid needing FCC testing. Also, I believe if you buy an FCC approved wireless module, you don't need to do compliance testing on your product. A shot timer will never have enough volume to be worth rolling your own anyway.

Inclusion of wireless does affect which rules you have to worry about (intentional vs. unintentional radiators), but leaving it out or using an approved module doesn't avoid the overall problem. Pretty much all electronic devices (with a few exceptions that this product won't qualify for) have to undergo some kind of testing. I dug through the actual regulations for a while looking for ways to avoid it, and I didn't find any.

I kind of regret drawing any more attention to FCC testing -- it isn't worth worrying about if we never come up with a working design in the first place.

There's enough market for the existing manufacturers to roll their own devices. In any case, I know I can build a prototype for myself at a price I'm comfortable with, and I don't mind sharing my final design (assuming it works). Maybe someone else will figure out how to turn a profit on it. I honestly think it's possible within Todd's target price range, but I don't have the capital.

SecondsCount
03-18-2012, 09:10 PM
Here is where I am at so far:
http://home.comcast.net/~train2live/gunstuff/shottimerR1.jpg

I have a pushbutton to start the timer with an LED to show when it starts. Speaker will come later when I get most of the timing code debugged, this is for sanity reasons.

The microphone with amplifier is finished and working well.

I have enough code completed and debugged to start the timer on the press of the button, log the times when the sound exceeds a threshold, and spit the values out to display on a terminal. Lots more to go with the bluetooth interface and some other ideas that I have. Anybody here that has written apps for Androids?

So far the Arduino/ATmega microcontroller seems plenty fast for this application.

JDM
03-18-2012, 09:39 PM
RE toughness-

What about filling the case with silicone once everything is in place? I recall a flashlight maker (Elzetta [sp?]) filling the space around the LED electronics with silicone, and the result was a seriously robust light.

UNK
03-18-2012, 09:47 PM
So not only are there no reliable pistols available to purchase there are also no reliable timers. If this continues we will have to carry crossbows and record with slate and chalk. Isn't progress great :)

jstyer
03-18-2012, 11:14 PM
There are several different companies that use resin or epoxy filling to help 'shock proof' their electronics... Mallkoff devices are a popular one, there are also some amp manufacturers that do the same. However, it's not exactly realistic to do so until you have a pretty finalized design. Otherwise you just made your PCB impossible to access. From a customer service stand point you're also making your device unable to be repaired, so if the end user has an issue, replacement is the only option. Not necessarily a big issue on a LED module that has <$10 worth of parts in it, but a little more so on a timer that has $50 worth of components.

It would be interesting to know what the cost is on that sort of manufacturing process... the fact that we don't see it on more electronics may mean that it is cost prohibitive and/or labor intensive.

schult
03-19-2012, 08:26 AM
I have a pushbutton to start the timer with an LED to show when it starts. Speaker will come later when I get most of the timing code debugged, this is for sanity reasons.

The microphone with amplifier is finished and working well.

I have enough code completed and debugged to start the timer on the press of the button, log the times when the sound exceeds a threshold, and spit the values out to display on a terminal. Lots more to go with the bluetooth interface and some other ideas that I have. Anybody here that has written apps for Androids?

So far the Arduino/ATmega microcontroller seems plenty fast for this application.

Nice. It sounds like you've done some testing at the range, is that correct?

jar
03-19-2012, 08:33 AM
There's enough market for the existing manufacturers to roll their own devices. In any case, I know I can build a prototype for myself at a price I'm comfortable with, and I don't mind sharing my final design (assuming it works). Maybe someone else will figure out how to turn a profit on it. I honestly think it's possible within Todd's target price range, but I don't have the capital.

I was referring to rolling your own bluetooth radio vs buying a module, not the whole device.

RoyGBiv
03-19-2012, 08:43 AM
It would be interesting to know what the cost is on that sort of manufacturing process... the fact that we don't see it on more electronics may mean that it is cost prohibitive and/or labor intensive.

I've been involved with electronics manufacturing for more than a dozen years and I've never had a request for this type of "shock proofing". I'm not sure where I would go to ask questions, it's that unusual.

Seems to me that if the main concern is broken internal components when it's rattling around in a range bag, a better solution would be 1. a robust mechanical design, 2. a ruggedized shell (perhaps some rubber in key places) and 3. A simple padded zipper storage/travel case.

When you're using it at the range, is it commonly knocked to the ground or abused?

Also.... While we're designing stuff....
Why not add a belt loop and an ear plug system? Make it plugable into electronic ear-pro, or use silicone-type audio plugs under standard muffs.
This would eliminate the need for a speaker on a "personal-use-only" timer, or would be an added feature on a competition timer.

I'm not very familiar with the electronic design requirements of this thing, but I have a hard time believing you can't fit a full featured shot timer into an enclosure the size of a volt/amp meter. Hook it on your belt or maybe a Velcro holster and strap it to your arm or leg.

??

ToddG
03-19-2012, 10:35 AM
When you're using it at the range, is it commonly knocked to the ground or abused?

Yes. They get dropped. They get knocked off tables. They get pelted by brass. They get bumped by shooters. They get smacked against barricades.

This is, at least for me, the #1 issue that needs to be addressed. I can live with the feature set of most current production timers, but none of them survive a year. Better features would be great, but candidly I'd be satisfied with an armored housing for my Pocket Pro II if nothing else.

peterb
03-19-2012, 10:51 AM
Yes. They get dropped. They get knocked off tables. They get pelted by brass. They get bumped by shooters. They get smacked against barricades.

This is, at least for me, the #1 issue that needs to be addressed. I can live with the feature set of most current production timers, but none of them survive a year. Better features would be great, but candidly I'd be satisfied with an armored housing for my Pocket Pro II if nothing else.

The Fluke multimeters I've used seem to survive that kind of treatment, and I suspect that the elastomer outer housing has a lot to do with it.

A mold for a 1-piece housing should be very inexpensive -- you could do it at home with casting compounds, and make prototypes from 2-part silicones or similar materials. Co-molding with hard armor would be more complex.

RoyGBiv
03-19-2012, 11:40 AM
The Fluke multimeters I've used seem to survive that kind of treatment, and I suspect that the elastomer outer housing has a lot to do with it.

A mold for a 1-piece housing should be very inexpensive -- you could do it at home with casting compounds, and make prototypes from 2-part silicones or similar materials. Co-molding with hard armor would be more complex.

That's what I had in mind... except a 2-piece snap/screw together housing with a separate battery door.
Depending on size, the cost of an injection mold will not be terrible ($1-2 thousand, my guess, depending on lots of specifics)
I'll defer to those more closely involved regarding design for impact, but, seems to me it can be made adequately robust without filling it with silicone.

There are lots of examples of ruggedized phones, laptops and other battlefield electronics that do not require silicone fill.

peterb
03-19-2012, 12:23 PM
If you're interested in custom injection molding, these folks are worth a look: http://www.protomold.com/

RoyGBiv
03-19-2012, 01:54 PM
If you're interested in custom injection molding, these folks are worth a look: http://www.protomold.com/

It seems this project would not require quick turn prototype parts...
Where there's not a huge time crunch (it seems) the cost for this type of quick turn service is hard to justify.

mrozowjj
03-21-2012, 06:40 PM
Inclusion of wireless does affect which rules you have to worry about (intentional vs. unintentional radiators), but leaving it out or using an approved module doesn't avoid the overall problem. Pretty much all electronic devices (with a few exceptions that this product won't qualify for) have to undergo some kind of testing. I dug through the actual regulations for a while looking for ways to avoid it, and I didn't find any.

I kind of regret drawing any more attention to FCC testing -- it isn't worth worrying about if we never come up with a working design in the first place.

There's enough market for the existing manufacturers to roll their own devices. In any case, I know I can build a prototype for myself at a price I'm comfortable with, and I don't mind sharing my final design (assuming it works). Maybe someone else will figure out how to turn a profit on it. I honestly think it's possible within Todd's target price range, but I don't have the capital.


That's where Kickstarter comes in. If you come up with a design you figure out how much money you'd need to make an initial run and then see if enough people are around to front you some capital.


Here is where I am at so far:
http://home.comcast.net/~train2live/gunstuff/shottimerR1.jpg

I have a pushbutton to start the timer with an LED to show when it starts. Speaker will come later when I get most of the timing code debugged, this is for sanity reasons.

The microphone with amplifier is finished and working well.

I have enough code completed and debugged to start the timer on the press of the button, log the times when the sound exceeds a threshold, and spit the values out to display on a terminal. Lots more to go with the bluetooth interface and some other ideas that I have. Anybody here that has written apps for Androids?

So far the Arduino/ATmega microcontroller seems plenty fast for this application.

I've written some very very simple apps with Androids just to play around with it a bit. That was Android 1.0 though when it first came out. Haven't really touched it since.


So not only are there no reliable pistols available to purchase there are also no reliable timers. If this continues we will have to carry crossbows and record with slate and chalk. Isn't progress great :)

I've given serious thought to buying a bow actually... I've been reading the Hunger Games.

SecondsCount
03-21-2012, 11:52 PM
Bluetooth is now working. I sent values to a terminal emulator on my Droid Razor tonight.

I am going to have to shelve this for a few weeks as I have some other items to take care of.

BaiHu
03-22-2012, 08:44 AM
Bluetooth is now working. I sent values to a terminal emulator on my Droid Razor tonight.

I am going to have to shelve this for a few weeks as I have some other items to take care of.

If you a) think it will be better than the PP2 (which it sounds like it is), b) think it will be similarly priced and c) be done by my birthday (5/13), can I d) pre-order?? :D

BaiHu
03-22-2012, 08:47 AM
Yes. They get dropped. They get knocked off tables. They get pelted by brass. They get bumped by shooters. They get smacked against barricades.

This is, at least for me, the #1 issue that needs to be addressed. I can live with the feature set of most current production timers, but none of them survive a year. Better features would be great, but candidly I'd be satisfied with an armored housing for my Pocket Pro II if nothing else.

Forgive me if this has been discussed here, b/c I have been following this, but I don't re-read the whole thread each time I follow.

Why doesn't someone make a rubber 'otterbox' style case for one of these so it has some protection and shock absorption?

orionz06
03-22-2012, 08:49 AM
Impressive stuff so far. Not really sure I can offer much as this doesn't quite fall into the mechanical spectrum, yet, but if anything is needed lemme know.

SecondsCount
03-22-2012, 10:22 AM
If you a) think it will be better than the PP2 (which it sounds like it is), b) think it will be similarly priced and c) be done by my birthday (5/13), can I d) pre-order?? :D

Sorry if I missed something but what is the PP2?

How about if I give you my source code and a bill of materials for your birthday? ;)

Seriously, this is just a hobby for me but my goal is that it turns into a solid affordable shot timer for the shooting community. My prior experience in board level design and my career in industrial controls will have a strong influence on this product.

Eventually it will need to be packaged in a rugged enclosure which it sounds like we have some members here that can handle that part.

BaiHu
03-22-2012, 11:45 AM
PP2=pocket pro timer II.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

Up1911Fan
03-30-2012, 09:01 PM
My CED 7000 died after less than 10 range trips. Brownells was great about it and took it back and let me upgrade it for a PACT Club III. Hoping this one works better, should be here this week.

Gator
04-06-2012, 06:03 AM
I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. I'm a computer scientist by day... or I was I haven't written any serious code in a few years now but I thought about writing a program to make scoring IPSC/USPSA style matches easier to log but the idea of writing a piece of software no one was going to use prevented me from getting started.

Why can't we get a few hardware guys together with a few software guys to design a rugged shot timer that isn't total shit and has easy to use interface? If we can a few prototypes we could make a kickstarter page and get people to fund a larger production run.



I was thinking something like that would be a good idea. Phones are generally fragile so the idea of using one as a dedicated shot timer is less than ideal but if you could use bluetooth to connect the shot timer to your pone so it logged all your times to your phone while it was still in your pocket that'd be a win. Automatically uploading the results to your Google Docs or something. For matches those that were so inclined could see how other people did on stages you haven't even shot yet.


Hi, have you made any progress on this?

mrozowjj
04-10-2012, 11:59 AM
Hi, have you made any progress on this?

A couple of guys have made some progress but no one is working together as far as I know. I"ve been thinking about writing a simple par timer app for my android phone so I can do some dry fire training in my house.

Nick
05-16-2012, 06:14 PM
Hey guys, I came across this thread when thinking about essentially the same thing. I'm very interested in potentially undertaking a project like this, but first I'd like to enlist all of your help so I can determine if this project is really feasible, or at least worth the time to put into it.

First a little background on myself. For the past several years up until a few months ago I have been developing embedded software for a defense contract for hand held and weapon mounted systems. I think this has given me some good experience designing robust software for high reliability environments, but it also gives me some good access to electrical and mechanical engineers that I can lean on that have experience building hardened systems that need to undertake things like drops on to concrete from a decent height. I think I have the expertise part covered.

What I need help figuring out, is exactly what price point / feature combination results in a system that people actually will want to buy. If I build a system I can only sell 10 of then my time isn't really well spent, but if I can sell thousands I think I can foresee the beginning of a new business.

What I have gathered is that durability is paramount, closely followed by interface and a good means to collect and extract information. All things that I think can be done very easily. Wireless can be done, but might add a lot of cost for what it adds.

If I can get some good numbers and a good reason to proceed I can get some heads together and figure out if launching a kickstarter project is worth the time and effort.

This boils down to 2 questions:

1)At what price with what features could I sell 100, 1000, 10000 of these?

2)What number of those people would be willing to take a risk with something like kickstarter to buy something that doesn't exist anywhere but in drawings?

derekb
05-16-2012, 11:30 PM
2)What number of those people would be willing to take a risk with something like kickstarter to buy something that doesn't exist anywhere but in drawings?

I'm currently involved with two Kickstarter projects for electronic devices (IronBuds and the HexBright Flex). They both achieved funding last year, and are both now far along in what seems to be a robust and open development process. Neither team expected it to take this long to deliver a product, but both teams are taking the time to engineer the product correctly. Both teams have been very open about their process (The IronBuds team has delivered something like 80 project updates since they achieved funding, documenting their entire process from initial designs to back-and-forth with the factory in China to their QA process. I trust that I will receive a quality product when they finally ship) and have listened to user input along the way.

As long as someone releasing a product (especially a complex one) is open and communicates well, there should be little to no risk backing a Kickstarter project. I am a big fan of the process.

Slavex
05-17-2012, 01:51 AM
Wireless synching to Practiscore or similar would be awesome. For example when running a match after the shooter is done the RO would press a send button and the time would go to an IOS device or Android device running a scoring app. The two items having been previously synched would mean that you wouldn't accidently enter times on the wrong participants score sheet and so on.

da6dspanburg
05-17-2012, 06:42 AM
2)What number of those people would be willing to take a risk with something like kickstarter to buy something that doesn't exist anywhere but in drawings?

I also support a couple of Kickstarter projects, one being a device. I'm always looking for interesting projets on Kickstarter.

ToddG
05-17-2012, 08:03 AM
I have no idea what Kickstarter is (please don't send me a link to kickstarter.com, I can figure that out on my own thank you). But I'd be willing to put some $$$ toward developing a genuinely robust shot timer.

It's very hard to get anyone to tell you price points for 100, 1000, etc. What we know is that companies sell enough shot timers to be profitable at the $120 mark pretty consistently. It would be very interesting to know how the CED 7000 PRO is selling at $200.

Obviously you'll need to prioritize features and weigh them against cost/complexity. Linking wirelessly to scoring software would be awesome for clubs, but (a) what will that cost to develop, (b) what will it add per unit in terms of price, and (c) what % of sales will be to clubs that are willing to pay a premium for that capability?

Personally, my priorities are ruggedness and user interface. While it's against modern thinking, I'd rather have a dozen dedicated buttons than two buttons that each do half a dozen things. A short discussion came up at Rogers last week about the difference between the Pocket Pro II and the original Pocket Pro, and the Rogers instructor said he liked the original because it had dedicated buttons for doing PAR times instead of needing to go through a menu. The menu system may seem more elegant, but in reality it's just a PITA. The CED 7000PRO, for example, has like four different PAR modes and for the life of me I can't remember which is which. I'm sure they're awesome but they're only necessary because it's such a trick to get them programmed in the first place. I could easily switch from a 2.0 PAR to a 3.5 PAR if there were dedicated buttons.

Another thing that I've really come to notice recently is that rechargeable devices suck compared to battery operated ones. At least for those of us who travel, bringing along a tangle of different chargers and cables is a mess. It also means I need to check charge levels on every single device each day before heading out. With my battery operated stuff, I just keep a few batteries in my range bag. When something dies, it can be brought back to life immediately by dropping a fresh battery in. With rechargeables, a dead device stays dead until you have access to an AC outlet and the time to charge it. How that is superior in anyone's mind escapes me completely.

Anyway, I'm probably just repeating things that have been said in this thread already. Good luck and if you end up doing the kickstart thing, definitely let the forum know as I'm sure you'll see plenty of interest.

flip7
05-17-2012, 08:46 AM
I emailed with kickstarter about a product I wanted to do. Their rules say no firearms, and their emails to me said no firearms accessories either. I guess they are private and can do what they like, but if they don't support our hobby, profession, and/or 2A then maybe we should not support them in general?
Though it would be a great mechanism to fund the project (but they take 5%).

RoyGBiv
05-17-2012, 09:03 AM
If I had drawings (mechanical and electrical), gerbers and a bill of materials I could handle getting it quoted in various quantities...

You would likely need to build a few prototypes for testing before a production run, but getting production quantities quoted before building prototypes will save you a lot of cost and effort if you find out prior to building anything that your design is at a price point that the market will not support. Conversely, if the design prices out cheaper than expected, you may decide to add features or enhance the design in some way before building prototypes.

I would suggest targeting a minimum production run of 1,000 pieces. IMO, it will be difficult to find a manufacturer that would be interested below this quantity, but if 1,000 is completely out of the realm of possibility, I'd certainly give it a shot at 500...

If you have your heart set on domestic manufacturing, expect the device to cost more (at least 2x) and the minimum quantities to be higher. In my experience, I've never had serious problems with overseas manufacturing quality given a clearly-specified set of drawings and a well-chosen factory. I've been working with overseas manufacturing since 1998, when I got my first lessons in how badly a big company can f-ck up the same thing the same way.... repeatedly, courtesy of IBM. Most domestic CEM's (contract electronics manufacturers) are going to buy the components from overseas and the only thing done stateside is the circuit board assembly (pick, place, solder, test) and the mechanical assembly. When was the last time you saw a capacitor with a "made in USA" logo? Components are all made in S. Korea, Taiwan and Japan, maybe a few other places.

Think about the logistics costs. I can choose to assemble and test everything overseas, and make one shipment to the USA... vs. shipping each component in a dozen separate shipments (all of them below ocean freight minimum charges) to the USA to assemble locally. Sure, it's likely you can find most components already stateside, but at those small quantities you'll have to buy them from some vulture distribution company at 3x or 100x what they would cost to source overseas. Facts of life.

So... I can quote it once you've reached a place where the design is reasonably well defined and documented... Let me know if any of this would be helpful..

Nick
05-17-2012, 09:03 AM
I emailed with kickstarter about a product I wanted to do. Their rules say no firearms, and their emails to me said no firearms accessories either. I guess they are private and can do what they like, but if they don't support our hobby, profession, and/or 2A then maybe we should not support them in general?
Though it would be a great mechanism to fund the project (but they take 5%).

Bummer.

My biggest hangups in trying to get a project like this done is the funding and time. Kickstarter seemed like it would be something that would solve both of those problems for me.

RoyGBiv
05-17-2012, 09:17 AM
I emailed with kickstarter about a product I wanted to do. Their rules say no firearms, and their emails to me said no firearms accessories either. I guess they are private and can do what they like, but if they don't support our hobby, profession, and/or 2A then maybe we should not support them in general?
Though it would be a great mechanism to fund the project (but they take 5%).
We're not talking about huge funding costs for this... assuming that people are donating their time to do the design and testing. The costs I see for development are for a few prototypes. Once you're ready for production, you'd need some $$ for marketing, tooling (injection molds for the enclosure, for example) and an initial production run.

Thinking out loud... if you're hoping to build a $120 (retail) device, it needs to be designed not cost you more than $40 to manufacture.
If a production run is 1,000 pieces, you're looking at ~$40K for production, plus maybe $10-$15K in tooling and other engineering non-recurring costs.
Totally a guessitimate, given that I have no idea what the design will actually cost.

I'll go out on a limb and bet that kind of cash can be raised without ever leaving this forum.

Marketing budget? I'll need to defer to those more experienced.

jar
05-17-2012, 09:31 AM
How that is superior in anyone's mind escapes me completely.

Because we don't have to buy batteries.

I think a great compromise would be to design around NiMH AAs, with a built in charge circuit. That way you can use disposable AAs as a backup.

Nick
05-17-2012, 09:55 AM
Roy I think your numbers are a little low based on the back of the envelop calculations I've done so far. Probably more like 200-300 retail depending on the exact feature set.

My real concern is time. Sure it could be done cheaply with donated time, but I know that isn't my intention. My rough estimate for doing the job is 4-6 months of full time software/electronics effort, and probably another month or two of mechanical effort. Unless people are willing to wait 2 years for a product to come to market this really needs some dedicated resources. I think the other risk with doing this on donated time is quality. Quality and durability are key requirements here, and neither can get done without going through a proper design cycle.

My own hope was that with some good preliminary design and a good kickstarter type campaign that I would be able to raise enough funds to design and build prototypes, test and then go into a first round of production. If enough people are willing to take the jump with me to essentially pre-order units then I would be willing to take the risk of starting a business to get this done not knowing for sure if I can sell the next batch to continue keeping the lights on.

DanH
05-17-2012, 03:40 PM
rechargeable devices suck compared to battery operated ones. How that is superior in anyone's mind escapes me completely.



It's a design thing. Several years back device makers decided that the way to make their device stand out was to make it smaller, for examples see what has happened to cell phones and point-and-shoot cameras. Consumers seem to believe that smaller is better and therefore with all of the electronics that have to go inside an ever-smaller device, the amount of room for batteries is the first thing that is sacrificed.
The fact that they can then tether you to a proprietary battery and charger (have you noticed how much they charge for those?) is purely coincidental, I'm sure.
In short, it's superior because we pay more for it :p

John Hearne
05-20-2012, 08:22 AM
Regarding features and design:

Extra Buttons: YES!!! I have a CED 6000 and 7000. I use the 6000 for all of our agency quals because I can quickly tweak the PAR time with just a few button pushes.

5 Volt Output: All the existing CED products give a 5 volt output on a 1/8" jack. I'd have to have this as I've built a wireless remote for our turning target system. CED has some other product that will use the jack as well

Configurable Beep: While few would benefit from it, I'd love to be able to shorten the beep to reduce the minimum PAR time. Again for stuff running on the 5 volt output.

dickmadison
05-23-2012, 03:40 PM
may I ask what timer you all recommend that is currently in production for personal use (mostly indoor)?

66L
05-23-2012, 03:50 PM
I use a CED 7000 and have been very pleased with it. Simple to operate once you get the hang of it, the rechargeable battery lasts plenty long for what I do with it, it's very compact, and about the same price as the other main ones. You can order an inexpensive rubber "skin" for it in a variety of colors to customize it and make it distinguishable from others.

Shokr21
05-23-2012, 05:05 PM
I guess my question to all of this is how does a timer cost in excess of $120 when my do-all smartphone costs $150.

You can't possibly tell me that there is even close to the amount of necessary components in a timer vs a smartphone. So why are the price points so similar?

For me to even consider buying a timer it would have to be in the <$75 range, and I really would like to have a timer, but I refuse to spend a similar amount of cash on one vs a new smartphone that gets used a helluva lot more.

MEH
05-23-2012, 05:10 PM
Your smartphone is subsidized by your monthly service plan. There is also the orders of difference in production quantity between smartphones and shot timers.

If I make a $75 timer that's bomb proof would you be willing to pay $25/month to use it (2 year commitment)?

Shokr21
05-23-2012, 05:45 PM
There's truth in that monthly plan subsidizing, but the basic premise stands.

I don't understand why shot timers are so expensive. They seem relatively simple. Hard plastic case, digital read out connected to a timer that's triggered by sound. Doesn't sound like rocket science to me, but I'm not an engineer nor have I ever taken one apart.

I just don't get it. Doesn't mean I think people who buy them are crazy, there's definitely a need for one, but I'd rather spend the money on ammo and borrow one when needed.

Nick
05-23-2012, 06:03 PM
Your smartphone is subsidized by your monthly service plan. There is also the orders of difference in production quantity between smartphones and shot timers.

If I make a $75 timer that's bomb proof would you be willing to pay $25/month to use it (2 year commitment)?

This.

Quantities are way different. If you could produce shot timers in the same quantities of most of the popular phone I'm sure you could cut the price by a lot. Add in the subsidies and that makes for an even larger difference.

RoyGBiv
05-23-2012, 07:19 PM
This.

Quantities are way different. If you could produce shot timers in the same quantities of most of the popular phone I'm sure you could cut the price by a lot. Add in the subsidies and that makes for an even larger difference.

Exactly...
I did a quote recently for a customers low volume part.. Delivered cost for 150 pieces 4 times per year was ~$80/each = $12,000/150. If they took those 600 pieces in a single shipment, the price would be about 10% less just on freight savings... about $72/ea = $43,200/600. If they took that quantity to 3,500 sets (1 full container) in a single shipment, they would see a price break from the factory plus a further reduction in freight cost, to less than $45/each, delivered. That's a ~44% reduction just by changing the quantity from "very small" to "small".

Now imagine the economies of scale when you're talking about millions of mobile handsets vs. a few hundred/thousand (a thousand is still a small quantity) shot timers.

Byron
05-23-2012, 07:46 PM
Your smartphone is subsidized by your monthly service plan.
And, quite frankly, by other people's service plans, and by the carriers themselves, just to get your business. No one makes money selling the phone itself.

A phone that runs $100-$200 with a 2 year contract most likely costs in the neighborhood of $600-$800 if purchased on the open market without a plan.

And yea, the economy of scale is almost unbelievable. To get the iPhone, Sprint had to commit to buying over 30 million units (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-03/sprint-tumbles-after-report-of-20-billion-commitment-for-iphone.html), and is projected to lose money on the deal for at least two years.

A shot timer is a very specialized piece of equipment, with a very tiny market.

SecondsCount
05-23-2012, 08:04 PM
A couple more things to consider when it comes to cost-

The country where it is made can obviously affect costs.

Cost of engineering spread over ten thousand is much greater per unit than ten million. Also, they can justify an investment in automating the process which reduces time and labor considerably.

EMC
05-23-2012, 08:45 PM
Timely subject, I just sent a link to a shot timer to my electrical engineer friend asking why such simple electronic components and software (in comparison to many modern mobile devices) are priced so high.

RoyGBiv
05-23-2012, 09:02 PM
Timely subject, I just sent a link to a shot timer to my electrical engineer friend asking why such simple electronic components and software (in comparison to many modern mobile devices) are priced so high.

As Paul would say... Now you know...

http://cdn100.iofferphoto.com/img/item/676/114/61/paul-harvey-the-rest-of-the-story-dvd-05844.jpg

schult
05-23-2012, 09:29 PM
Personally, my priorities are ruggedness and user interface. While it's against modern thinking, I'd rather have a dozen dedicated buttons than two buttons that each do half a dozen things. A short discussion came up at Rogers last week about the difference between the Pocket Pro II and the original Pocket Pro, and the Rogers instructor said he liked the original because it had dedicated buttons for doing PAR times instead of needing to go through a menu. The menu system may seem more elegant, but in reality it's just a PITA. The CED 7000PRO, for example, has like four different PAR modes and for the life of me I can't remember which is which. I'm sure they're awesome but they're only necessary because it's such a trick to get them programmed in the first place. I could easily switch from a 2.0 PAR to a 3.5 PAR if there were dedicated buttons.

What other buttons would your ideal device have?

How firm is your requirement for dedicated PAR buttons? Would it be close enough to have a "Settings" button that takes you to a single-level menu with PAR right at the top? So to change PAR you would press Settings, Enter, Up/Down, Enter.

Slavex
05-23-2012, 10:29 PM
I like the menu structure on my CEDPro but I also understand Todd's complaint on it. Since we all seem to want a device that can synch to at least a computer if not a smart phone, would user assignable buttons not be able to be done via a simple PC program or on the device itself? Have a default setting and the ability to make changes. I can do that with my alarm remote, so while it's another puzzle piece it shouldn't be that hard. The ability to accept updates is also important to me.
I also have access to a CNC shop that specializes in small production runs of small parts, as well my brother does injection moulding and blow moulding. But I'm up in Canada so that might not help at all.

jstyer
05-24-2012, 06:46 AM
As far as menus vs dedicated buttons go... I think the pro-sumer DSLR is a great example of how these features are not mutually exclusive.

I'd love dedicated buttons for par time, start style, split review, string review, clear, a cycle arrow set, and maybe a "continue string" button where you cam pick up from where you left off on cumulative time stuff.

Having dedicated buttons for all of this would make it quick and painless access, but you could always go into a menu if you need to tinker further. If that's what you needed.

Just like on a dslr where there is quick buttons for WB, ISO, metering, etc... as well as a more in depth menu.

jstyer
05-24-2012, 06:47 AM
But I'm up in Canada so that might not help at all.

There's a joke that you just softballed in there for us... ;)

ToddG
05-24-2012, 08:48 AM
What other buttons would your ideal device have?

I'd like an on/off switch of some kind.

It obviously needs a button to start the timer.

It needs a button to review shots. Preferably, a button for scrolling through splits and another for scrolling through strings.

I'd really like a pair of buttons that + and - a PAR time by 0.1 each. Perhaps press both simultaneously to zero your PAR.

For bonus points, another pair of buttons to + and - a PAR by 1.0 each.

Honestly, If you made a traditional 3x4 keypad on top I'm pretty sure we could come up with great functions for each button. The iPod-esque need some people have to oversimplify the user interface is crazy. My car doesn't have two buttons and a menu system for changing the radio station, the temperature, the headlights, cruise control, etc. All of those things have their own switches. It allows me to do exactly what I want, when I want.

Nick
05-24-2012, 09:35 AM
I understand why there is a push for so many buttons, extensive overloading can be frustrating and hard to learn. I think too many buttons can be just as bad and provides its own problems. Cost is a big factor, more buttons costs more money. Every button is a potential point of failure, more buttons opens you up to more things that can break.

A solid interface design can get by with probably between 3 and 5 buttons so long as there is good visual queuing as to which button does what at any given time.

I'm trying to gather up all the specs and requirements so I can show this stuff to some mechanical engineers to get some estimates on mechanical costs then Ill start looking at some options for the user interface.

ToddG
05-24-2012, 09:53 AM
The Club Timer uses four buttons. As long as you can memorize exactly what to do with each one each time and remember what sequence is necessary to do what you want, it's awesome. Or so I hear. Me, I couldn't remember whether the button closest to me or farthest from me was "up" or "down."

I'd rather pay an extra $20-50 for a useful interface than put up with something that was slick and looked nice but was actually a PITA to use. The shot timer is a supplemental piece of equipment. It should make my job easier. It shouldn't be a job itself.

Dr. No
05-24-2012, 11:05 AM
Why not have a shot timer with a touchscreen interface (a la smartphone style) that allows the user to configure all of the buttons on their PC? Then you could go as simple or complex as needed. Physical buttons could be 'start' and 'on/off'.

ToddG
05-24-2012, 11:08 AM
While that would be awesome -- think of it in terms of programming custom "widgets" for the functions you use most commonly -- I've got to assume that touch screens add both expense and fragility. There's also the issue of using them while wearing shooting gloves.

jar
05-24-2012, 03:11 PM
While that would be awesome -- think of it in terms of programming custom "widgets" for the functions you use most commonly -- I've got to assume that touch screens add both expense and fragility. There's also the issue of using them while wearing shooting gloves.

Touchscreens suck in the wet as well. Also, for me at least, accurately hitting touchscreen buttons one handed is much harder than pressing hardware buttons.

Slavex
05-24-2012, 10:06 PM
If one wanted a touch screen then it would make more sense to develop a hardware component that would attach to an android or iPhone and run on their OS. Perhaps the microphone and speaker for the timer along with whatever specialized processor is needed.
I'd rather have hard buttons, user configurable if possible for some. Probably need 8 buttons total. I'd like one of them to be the "delay" button, so I could quickly cycle through random, instant, 1 second, 3 second and custom starts.

SecondsCount
05-24-2012, 11:19 PM
If one wanted a touch screen then it would make more sense to develop a hardware component that would attach to an android or iPhone and run on their OS. Perhaps the microphone and speaker for the timer along with whatever specialized processor is needed.
I'd rather have hard buttons, user configurable if possible for some. Probably need 8 buttons total. I'd like one of them to be the "delay" button, so I could quickly cycle through random, instant, 1 second, 3 second and custom starts.
This is the direction I am headed. All the little configurations would be made on the smartphone, laptop, etc. while the shot timer would only have a couple buttons.

SecondsCount
05-24-2012, 11:22 PM
Why not have a shot timer with a touchscreen interface (a la smartphone style) that allows the user to configure all of the buttons on their PC? Then you could go as simple or complex as needed. Physical buttons could be 'start' and 'on/off'.

While that sounds good in theory, supporting something that can be programmed by the user would add a ton of expense and could become a nightmare from a support side.

Touchscreens can be made robust but the ones I have seen in industrial applications are typically 5x over a standard model.

Slavex
05-25-2012, 12:02 AM
User assignable buttons would be pretty simple especially with a default factory setting as a choice to alow for putting back to factory specs.

Dr. No
05-25-2012, 03:04 PM
This is the direction I am headed. All the little configurations would be made on the smartphone, laptop, etc. while the shot timer would only have a couple buttons.

I think this is a perfect solution.

rob_s
07-27-2012, 11:35 AM
Does anyone have a sense that the original Pocket Pro (PP) is more durable than the Pocket Pro II (PPII)?

From the Brownells page on the PPII (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22292/Product/POCKET-PRO-II), there is a review from someone that had an issue, sent it back, and got the comment "these units cannot be exposed to high heat, continued sunlight, cold, or moisture". when it was returned. He claims that the PP does not suffer from the same weaknesses.

SecondsCount
11-19-2012, 08:53 PM
USPS made a delivery today. Now I probably won't get any sleep tonight playing with them.

http://home.comcast.net/~train2live/misc/displaysr.jpg

BaiHu
11-19-2012, 09:09 PM
Sweet! Good luck in the laboratory Dr SC :D

EMC
11-19-2012, 09:40 PM
USPS made a delivery today. Now I probably won't get any sleep tonight playing with them.

http://home.comcast.net/~train2live/misc/displaysr.jpg

Awesome. If you build it they will come.

ToddG
12-15-2012, 10:05 AM
Both of my Pocket Pro IIs are now dead.

One died earlier this year and I limped along with the other by itself. It's been having odd problems for a while. Yesterday at the range it reset all of its parameters and the numbers on the display (sensitivity, PAR time, etc) had no correlation to the actual settings the machine used. It also kept blanking out and resetting in the middle of drills. I replaced the battery to no effect. I bashed it against the wall five or six times to no effect. I spiked it on the ground and a few pieces flew off but it still wouldn't work. I threw what was left of it in the garbage can and now it's not causing me any more trouble.

Now I have zero shot timers.

CGA
12-15-2012, 11:57 AM
For those with the Pocket Pro II, I discovered this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVsVIhqbkjs). Seems like the battery connection is at fault. I don't know if many are having similar problems, but if your handy with electronics and can solder, this might be a fix. (I'd probably just buy a new one.)

JM Campbell
12-15-2012, 02:32 PM
Both of my Pocket Pro IIs are now dead.

One died earlier this year and I limped along with the other by itself. It's been having odd problems for a while. Yesterday at the range it reset all of its parameters and the numbers on the display (sensitivity, PAR time, etc) had no correlation to the actual settings the machine used. It also kept blanking out and resetting in the middle of drills. I replaced the battery to no effect. I bashed it against the wall five or six times to no effect. I spiked it on the ground and a few pieces flew off but it still wouldn't work. I threw what was left of it in the garbage can and now it's not causing me any more trouble.

Now I have zero shot timers.

For the love of God, please some one make a shot timer Butter Fingers McGee won't destroy!!

:D

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

aboveandbeyond
12-23-2012, 10:35 PM
For those with the Pocket Pro II, I discovered this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVsVIhqbkjs). Seems like the battery connection is at fault. I don't know if many are having similar problems, but if your handy with electronics and can solder, this might be a fix. (I'd probably just buy a new one.)

I have...sometimes my PPII wont even turn on unless I take the battery out and and put it back in.

However, I fixed the issue by placing a small piece of foam between the battery and the case.

schult
01-11-2013, 02:13 PM
I've been thinking about this again lately. Here's what I've had sitting idle on my desk for the last few months:

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/5728/img6716a.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img833/7287/img6714i.jpg

The first three buttons change the active mode/screen:

Green: (Re)Start timer (shows first and last shot times, number of shots so far, etc.)
Yellow: Review (completely unimplemented at this point)
Blue: Setup (The screen shown in the picture)


The remaining buttons are currently setup-specific, but will be used for review also.

Black: Next/Previous item
White: Increase/Decrease/Toggle selected item (Random & None are special values below and at zero respectively)


There is a hardware-only on/off switch.

Currently I have no data transfer support. I'll probably skip that feature just to keep the first version simple.

EMC
01-11-2013, 03:11 PM
Nice work, keep it up. More competition, more innovation.

MDS
01-12-2013, 06:03 AM
Nice! The feature set is almost irrelevant if the hardware was there and if the software was user-updatable - I'd buy two.

Force Majeure
01-12-2013, 01:24 PM
Anybody play with the free Surefire Iphone Shot Timer app?

JDM
01-12-2013, 01:29 PM
Anybody play with the free Surefire Iphone Shot Timer app?

Yes.

It works very poorly indoors, and is questionable at best outside.

The iPhone is not a shot timer.

jon volk
01-12-2013, 08:13 PM
Anybody play with the free Surefire Iphone Shot Timer app?

I used it for a few months. Iffy at best. Wife got me a pocket pro II for Christmas. Works great even at a busy indoor range.

Bradlykf
02-02-2013, 10:45 PM
I've been thinking about this again lately. Here's what I've had sitting idle on my desk for the last few months:

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/5728/img6716a.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img833/7287/img6714i.jpg

The first three buttons change the active mode/screen:

Green: (Re)Start timer (shows first and last shot times, number of shots so far, etc.)
Yellow: Review (completely unimplemented at this point)
Blue: Setup (The screen shown in the picture)


The remaining buttons are currently setup-specific, but will be used for review also.

Black: Next/Previous item
White: Increase/Decrease/Toggle selected item (Random & None are special values below and at zero respectively)


There is a hardware-only on/off switch.

Currently I have no data transfer support. I'll probably skip that feature just to keep the first version simple.

This is looking very promising!

What sort of issues are you running into? How can the community help?



All the websites for the currently available shot timers are terrible so marketing won't be difficult once a solid first version is ready. I've done product launch sites before (recent example: www.benchmat.com (http://www.benchmat.com))SouthCityMedia is my freelance web business doing email marketing, websites, search engine optimization, etc. Besides, word of mouth on forums like this and going to ranges and matches and showings it to people is huge. If its a great product it will sell it self.

ToddG
02-03-2013, 09:38 AM
FWIW, in terms of voting with my wallet I just purchased two more Pocket Pro IIs. I'm still not satisfied with their durability/reliability; the lack of a memory function is very problematic. But in terms of day to day functionality for both my practice and teaching, they still work the best.

littlejerry
02-03-2013, 11:47 AM
Fyi:
I am a mechanical engineer and work at a engineering design firm in Atlanta. We design consumer, industrial, military, and medical products.

If anyone was genuinely curious about what it would take to get a product to market I'd be happy to talk to you offline.

Please understand that I'm not offering my (or my company's) services, just that I could offer some some insight into what it would take. We have worked with inventors and entrepreneurs and have seen them both succeed and fail.

The most important part is distribution and sales. I have watched many a good product die because of poor distribution and marketing.

schult
02-05-2013, 11:13 PM
What sort of issues are you running into? How can the community help?

The biggest issue of all is time & motivation. The best thing people can do to help keep this project moving is to keep talking about it. Questions, suggestions, competition, and the occasional "nice work!" are huge motivators and make this project a more attractive way to spend my spare time.

The technical issue that I'm most focused on right now is balancing ruggedness with accuracy. Quartz crystal oscillators are the gold standard in electronic timekeeping accuracy, but they're rather fragile. A five foot drop onto a hard surface is bad news. I would hazard a guess that this component has been the source of some of Todd's problems with existing shot timers. There are more rugged alternatives, but they tend to be much less accurate.

How long do people expect the shot timer to be able to run before it gains or loses a hundredth of a second? Other shot timers probably go between 100 and 400 seconds. One of the more rugged crystal alternatives I've found will make it 11-12 seconds.

Does someone with more engineering knowledge than me know of a good way to make this thing durable without sacrificing too much accuracy? A superior component that isn't impossible to find, or some nifty tricks that help devices that use crystals stand up to abuse?

EMC
02-05-2013, 11:44 PM
The biggest issue of all is time & motivation. The best thing people can do to help keep this project moving is to keep talking about it. Questions, suggestions, competition, and the occasional "nice work!" are huge motivators and make this project a more attractive way to spend my spare time.

The technical issue that I'm most focused on right now is balancing ruggedness with accuracy. Quartz crystal oscillators are the gold standard in electronic timekeeping accuracy, but they're rather fragile. A five foot drop onto a hard surface is bad news. I would hazard a guess that this component has been the source of some of Todd's problems with existing shot timers. There are more rugged alternatives, but they tend to be much less accurate.

How long do people expect the shot timer to be able to run before it gains or loses a hundredth of a second? Other shot timers probably go between 100 and 400 seconds. One of the more rugged crystal alternatives I've found will make it 11-12 seconds.

Does someone with more engineering knowledge than me know of a good way to make this thing durable without sacrificing too much accuracy? A superior component that isn't impossible to find, or some nifty tricks that help devices that use crystals stand up to abuse?

Just curious how the Casio G-shock watches maintain the accuracy/durability compromise. Maybe they aren't on that level of accuracy. What about taking the clock out of the device altogether and use the atomic clock signal or GPS time. Of course then your indoor use is limited. Just trying to think outside of the box, no pun intended.

RoyGBiv
02-06-2013, 09:10 AM
Is that level of accuracy a hard requirement for a device with this purpose?
Is a practice timer that loses 0.01 seconds over every 10 seconds (1/10th of 1%) inadequate for training?

Yes, more precision is required for matches, but, that version can be a different (bigger/more rugged/etc.) form factor and at a higher price. Or it can be somebody else's design. If we're aiming for the bulk of the quantity, we don't have to satisfy the needs at the edges. Atomic-clock timing seems like overkill. No?

ToddG
02-06-2013, 09:56 AM
A shot timer that isn't accurate enough for match use won't get anywhere in the market. A substantial portion of the timers sold today are for groups or clubs that run matches, or competitive shooters who expect to use their timers at a match.

Having said that, it would be interesting to get some actual info on how accurate current timers tend to be. No point trying to meet a standard if you don't know what the standard is. It might be that we've all just assumed the current timers are magically perfect when in fact they're far from it.

RoyGBiv
02-06-2013, 10:49 AM
Not to beleaguer the point but when you consider this, please consider "accuracy" and "repeatability" separately.
A less-than-precise but very repeatable (reproducible?) timer can judge an event accurately if the same timer is used for all participants, for example.

MEH
02-06-2013, 12:11 PM
A couple of links for your reading pleasure relating to accuracy:

Easy to understand (http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2276.pdf)

More in depth (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/01155a.pdf)

schult
02-06-2013, 01:15 PM
Roy is correct to point out that repeatability is a different issue. It's not one that I'm worried about. A single timer won't vary significantly from one run to the next, even if it doesn't agree with a second timer. But what if something happens to your timer in the middle of a match? It would be better if you could just count on them to agree.

Atomic clock broadcasts and GPS are interesting ideas. They both add complexity, and I'm not certain they would work for this purpose, so I'm hoping there's a better option.

The G-Shock appears to use atomic clock broadcasts to keep time. I'm not sure how accurate it is apart from that feature.

Apparently there are high-shock crystals, but they seem to be a specialty item. I'll have to see if I can convince some sales rep that I'm worth his time.

ToddG
02-06-2013, 01:16 PM
Pfft. I have three quartz watches that all passed the incredibly strict COSC quartz requirements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COSC#Standards_and_methods). But I think a thermocompensated quartz timer is probably overkill for a shot timer. :cool:

LOKNLOD
02-06-2013, 01:42 PM
The G-Shock appears to use atomic clock broadcasts to keep time. I'm not sure how accurate it is apart from that feature.

Don't most of the atomic clock watches only use the broadcast to correct the drift, syncrhonizing periodically, vs. taking some sort of constant feed? I have a casio watch somewhere (not a Gshock) with the atomic feature, and it was just an aid in setting it and keeping it synced, IIRC. I'm not sure how that type of setup would help with a shot timer?

LOKNLOD
02-06-2013, 01:44 PM
Not to beleaguer the point but when you consider this, please consider "accuracy" and "repeatability" separately.
A less-than-precise but very repeatable (reproducible?) timer can judge an event accurately if the same timer is used for all participants, for example.

Technically, if it were very repeatable, it would be very precise, but could still be somewhat less accurate. :p

RoyGBiv
02-06-2013, 01:55 PM
Technically, if it were very repeatable, it would be very precise, but could still be somewhat less accurate. :p

Eggzactly

schult
02-06-2013, 01:59 PM
Don't most of the atomic clock watches only use the broadcast to correct the drift, syncrhonizing periodically, vs. taking some sort of constant feed? I have a casio watch somewhere (not a Gshock) with the atomic feature, and it was just an aid in setting it and keeping it synced, IIRC. I'm not sure how that type of setup would help with a shot timer?

Yes, this is pretty much why I'm not sure that option would work. It might be possible to do something with it anyway, if your local clock is accurate enough to span the gap between updates. Even then, I don't think the broadcast time is intended for anything better than second-level accuracy. GPS might be able to do better.

schult
02-13-2013, 07:58 PM
Good news! I found an easily sourced part that I had missed before -- it turns out that Abracon makes some MEMS oscillators that should work. Problem solved.

EMC
02-14-2013, 12:44 PM
Good news! I found an easily sourced part that I had missed before -- it turns out that Abracon makes some MEMS oscillators that should work. Problem solved.

Very cool. Looking forward to the results.

Bradlykf
02-15-2013, 12:52 AM
Good news! I found an easily sourced part that I had missed before -- it turns out that Abracon makes some MEMS oscillators that should work. Problem solved.

That's awesome. Keep the updates comming

LHS
03-13-2013, 06:25 PM
Consider my interest piqued.

Fiddler
03-21-2014, 11:30 PM
I know I'm necro-ing a really old thread here - and I'm just a hobbyist without the experience of many of you engineering types --- but I do have a working shot timer on my Arduino Uno. 200 shot limit, no particular limit on length of string, par times, sensitivity, echo rejection, buzzer volume...

It has some flaws in timing - but on the short timescales we use it for the timing issues don't seem to create enough drift to cause a difference. Shows up on the millisecond scale, but not really in tenths or hundredths so much. Honestly, I use it all the time and it works well enough for practice.

I'm hosting the code on Codebender (https://codebender.cc/sketch:19843) - although I'm thinking I may move it to Google Code.

Anyway - my version may not be up to snuff, but it was fun to play around with and it actually seems to be working pretty well for me. Figured I should share.


FWIW - I'm tinkering around with the code for a version that stores all settings and strings to an SD card, however it's too big for the 32k of flash memory on an Uno. I'm thinking I'll use a Teensy or a Due. Who knows how long before I actually scratch that all the way together so I can share it though.

Fiddler
03-22-2014, 12:03 AM
Putting up a short video demonstration: http://youtu.be/lpuMynV3e8k

Yeah - that enclosure is a sugru monstrosity in all its glory. Sorry.

ToddG
03-22-2014, 07:19 AM
That is awesome!

Regarding multiple PARs, you said something like "it adds to the last PAR" for each subsequent one. Can you explain? It seems to me the benefit of having multiple PARs would be at places like LE agencies for their qualifications. You could program the times for an entire qual into the device and have it jump to the next appropriate time automatically instead of having to change the PAR manually ten times during each qual.

The SD card thing is great. I have to imagine that's monstrously more simple than Bluetooth on both the timer and computer/download side.

Thanks for sharing and I hope it continues to develop!

Fiddler
03-22-2014, 10:50 AM
That is awesome!

Regarding multiple PARs, you said something like "it adds to the last PAR" for each subsequent one. Can you explain? It seems to me the benefit of having multiple PARs would be at places like LE agencies for their qualifications. You could program the times for an entire qual into the device and have it jump to the next appropriate time automatically instead of having to change the PAR manually ten times during each qual.


Thanks, Todd!

So right now the multiple par times are enabled for a single string. So for example, if you enabled par times, and set the following par values:

Par 1: 00:05.000
Par 2: + 00:01.00

You would get a beep at 5 seconds, and then again at 6 (1 second after the last beep).

So it's really multiple par beeps for a single string.

However - it wouldn't be too hard to adapt the software to do more what you described: Multiple par times for successive strings, rather than the same string. Not too hard to code - I'd just have to add a third option to the Par-Time Enable variable - enabled, disabled, sequential.

And then on sequential increment a counter each time you start and stop the timer to tell the timer which string in the sequence it is in, and therefore which par time to use.

And probably add a reset function, or even something to let you select which step of the sequence to run.

Sorry - thinking with my fingers there! But yeah, totally doable.
___________________________

Re: Future development -- I'm almost certainly going to keep tinkering. If I don't have a project I tend to fill my time buying new firearms, so it saves me money to have something to do. :p


Re: SD Card support - I'd really love to get this running, because I've got code working locally that should allow an unlimited number of shots, and unlimited length of strings (you'll notice the timer display goes up to 99 hours..). I could probably also add in things like pre-programmed 'qualifier' par schedules like you suggest.

The problem is this model of Arduino doesn't quite have enough program memory to run the SD code and the timer code(or else my I need to optimize my code better). 32kb is not a lot to work with. Going to try using a Teensy board or a Due which should be enough.

If you want to build your own:
I estimate the component cost for building the no-SD support version of these is:
- Arduino Uno R3 - $27.95 (http://www.amazon.com/Arduino-UNO-board-DIP-ATmega328P/dp/B006H06TVG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395501680&sr=8-1&keywords=arduino+uno+3)
- Electret Microphone breakout with gain - $6.95 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/1063)
- RGB LCD Shield, with buttons - $24.95 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/714)
- 9v batter pack for arduino - $3.95 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/67) or 3 AAA pack - $1.95 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/727)
- Piezzo Buzzer - 3-24dvc - 95 db - $9.50 at amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Indicators-Alerts-CONSTANT-3-24VDC-2-5KHZ/dp/B00HKICUDU/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1395502102&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=3+to+24vdc+buzzer), but way cheaper at an electronic parts store or ripped out of something else. More like $3 or less
--- NOTE: you can only drive the buzzer so loud with the Arduino's voltage level - tuning the frequency to the resonant frequency of the buzzer helps, try and find a low frequency resonance if you want a lower pitched buzz.
--- There are a couple ways you could increase the voltage to drive a louder buzzer: Project 1 (http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/RegulatedPositiveVoltageBooster), Project 2 (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-an-Arduino-driven-Piezo-LOUD/?ALLSTEPS)

That's $67.80 for the base components.
+ shipping for parts if you order online
+ whatever it costs you to build an enclosure/add a belt clip
+ whatever your time is worth

It is more capable than a Pocket Pro II or PACT Club Timer, just uglier (And you can fix that if you're a better craftsman than I!). Not quite at the level of the CED7000, but once I get the SD card version working... well that'll be something.

Just to put it out there, the SD card version will use everything above with the following changes:
+ Substitute the Arduino Uno R3 for a Teensy 3.1 - $19.80 (https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/teensy31.html) (Yes, it's cheaper, smaller, AND more powerful - harder to work with though, and mine hasn't arrived yet, so YMMV) (How to Power a TEENSY (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/external_power.html))
+ Adafruit SD breakout board - $14.95 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/254)-- (This I have used and tested - works great, just don't have the program memory to run it and all the timer code at the same time on the Arduino R3)
+ 4gb MicroSD card - $7.95 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/102)

Est. Cost for complete kit including SD components: $82.55
+ shipping, enclosure/clip, your time

Anyway - as I said before - I just wanted to share with the community. Please feel free to build your own, use my code, fix my code if you think it's crap, sell kits(please provide attribution?), post your own code.. whatever. I may put the code up on Google Code so it's easier to collaborate on, or maybe Codebender will add version control and community commit features.

Slavex
03-22-2014, 11:24 AM
that is pretty slick, I dig the sugru case. I love that stuff. Honestly with a good mold that would make a great case for such a device just due to the shock absorbing nature of the material. It might make repairs difficult though.

I would prefer a screen that showed more info if I asked for it. That screen looks like one could use a smaller font size to display more info? Things I like about the 7000Pro is I can see 10 shots and the splits all at once on the review screen.
Does yours have an instant start option or only a delayed start?

Fiddler
03-22-2014, 12:17 PM
It can do instant start - you just set the delay to 0.

The way this particular display (16x2) works it can really only do two lines. I kind of prefer it just because it's easier to see out in the sun?

However you could use a 20x 4 (that's 20 characters across, 4 lines on screen at a time) like this one: https://www.adafruit.com/products/198 or even a 128x64 board which can do many rows of text and even graphics like this: https://www.pjrc.com/store/dev_display_128x64.html (only $29)

I'm considering using the 128x64 board for the TEENSY version with SD support. The larger screen would definitely be useful if you're also navigating through a bunch of different shot strings.

The other nice thing about the 16x2 is it had a number of built in buttons and built in contrast control - I'd have to add those separately with some of the other displays.

Fiddler
03-22-2014, 10:27 PM
Update - switched to Google Code and LGPL license to make any community collaboration easier: https://code.google.com/p/arduino-shot-timer/

BaiHu
03-23-2014, 07:09 AM
Cool watching you tinker through this from a guy who only knows how to turn these things on and run drills. Keep up the good work and definitely keep linking us videos.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Jay Cunningham
06-09-2015, 06:48 AM
Any updates? All three of my stinking timers are smoked, so I'm in the market.

41magfan
06-09-2015, 07:33 AM
Not to derail this old thread, but this will give you an idea of where it all started. I suspect this timer pre-dates many of the folks on this Forum ..... it's 33 years old.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/442/discphotos050.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/cadiscphotos050j)

Up1911Fan
06-09-2015, 11:51 AM
Any updates? All three of my stinking timers are smoked, so I'm in the market.

Not sure which one's you've used, but my Pact Club Timer III is going on 2 1/2 years and still going strong. Like it a lot more than my previous CED 7000.

Irelander
06-09-2015, 12:43 PM
Thanks, Todd!

So right now the multiple par times are enabled for a single string. So for example, if you enabled par times, and set the following par values:

Par 1: 00:05.000
Par 2: + 00:01.00

You would get a beep at 5 seconds, and then again at 6 (1 second after the last beep).

So it's really multiple par beeps for a single string.

However - it wouldn't be too hard to adapt the software to do more what you described: Multiple par times for successive strings, rather than the same string. Not too hard to code - I'd just have to add a third option to the Par-Time Enable variable - enabled, disabled, sequential.

And then on sequential increment a counter each time you start and stop the timer to tell the timer which string in the sequence it is in, and therefore which par time to use.

And probably add a reset function, or even something to let you select which step of the sequence to run.

Sorry - thinking with my fingers there! But yeah, totally doable.
___________________________

Re: Future development -- I'm almost certainly going to keep tinkering. If I don't have a project I tend to fill my time buying new firearms, so it saves me money to have something to do. :p


Re: SD Card support - I'd really love to get this running, because I've got code working locally that should allow an unlimited number of shots, and unlimited length of strings (you'll notice the timer display goes up to 99 hours..). I could probably also add in things like pre-programmed 'qualifier' par schedules like you suggest.

The problem is this model of Arduino doesn't quite have enough program memory to run the SD code and the timer code(or else my I need to optimize my code better). 32kb is not a lot to work with. Going to try using a Teensy board or a Due which should be enough.

If you want to build your own:
I estimate the component cost for building the no-SD support version of these is:
- Arduino Uno R3 - $27.95 (http://www.amazon.com/Arduino-UNO-board-DIP-ATmega328P/dp/B006H06TVG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395501680&sr=8-1&keywords=arduino+uno+3)
- Electret Microphone breakout with gain - $6.95 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/1063)
- RGB LCD Shield, with buttons - $24.95 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/714)
- 9v batter pack for arduino - $3.95 (https://www.adafruit.com/products/67) or 3 AAA pack - $1.95 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/727)
- Piezzo Buzzer - 3-24dvc - 95 db - $9.50 at amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Indicators-Alerts-CONSTANT-3-24VDC-2-5KHZ/dp/B00HKICUDU/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1395502102&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=3+to+24vdc+buzzer), but way cheaper at an electronic parts store or ripped out of something else. More like $3 or less
--- NOTE: you can only drive the buzzer so loud with the Arduino's voltage level - tuning the frequency to the resonant frequency of the buzzer helps, try and find a low frequency resonance if you want a lower pitched buzz.
--- There are a couple ways you could increase the voltage to drive a louder buzzer: Project 1 (http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/RegulatedPositiveVoltageBooster), Project 2 (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-an-Arduino-driven-Piezo-LOUD/?ALLSTEPS)

That's $67.80 for the base components.
+ shipping for parts if you order online
+ whatever it costs you to build an enclosure/add a belt clip
+ whatever your time is worth

It is more capable than a Pocket Pro II or PACT Club Timer, just uglier (And you can fix that if you're a better craftsman than I!). Not quite at the level of the CED7000, but once I get the SD card version working... well that'll be something.

Just to put it out there, the SD card version will use everything above with the following changes:
+ Substitute the Arduino Uno R3 for a Teensy 3.1 - $19.80 (https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/teensy31.html) (Yes, it's cheaper, smaller, AND more powerful - harder to work with though, and mine hasn't arrived yet, so YMMV) (How to Power a TEENSY (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/external_power.html))
+ Adafruit SD breakout board - $14.95 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/254)-- (This I have used and tested - works great, just don't have the program memory to run it and all the timer code at the same time on the Arduino R3)
+ 4gb MicroSD card - $7.95 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/102)

Est. Cost for complete kit including SD components: $82.55
+ shipping, enclosure/clip, your time

Anyway - as I said before - I just wanted to share with the community. Please feel free to build your own, use my code, fix my code if you think it's crap, sell kits(please provide attribution?), post your own code.. whatever. I may put the code up on Google Code so it's easier to collaborate on, or maybe Codebender will add version control and community commit features.

This looks awesome. My buddies work with Arduinos all the time. How do I go about getting your code for the shot timer? Great work.

1slow
06-09-2015, 01:12 PM
Not to derail this old thread, but this will give you an idea of where it all started. I suspect this timer pre-dates many of the folks on this Forum ..... it's 33 years old.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/442/discphotos050.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/cadiscphotos050j)

I had 2 of the old Rogers Timers circa 1980 or so that had manual setting dials.

Peally
06-09-2015, 02:01 PM
For 100 bucks they should last a hell of a lot longer considering what little they do. I eagerly await a timer model that can survive simple WI humidity and cold longer than 8 months.

41magfan
06-09-2015, 03:57 PM
I had 2 of the old Rogers Timers circa 1980 or so that had manual setting dials.

Man, that's going back to the true beginnings of electronic shot timers as I'm pretty sure Bill's invention was the first one commercially available though I don't recall it being very successful.

41magfan
06-09-2015, 04:15 PM
For 100 bucks they should last a hell of a lot longer considering what little they do. I eagerly await a timer model that can survive simple WI humidity and cold longer than 8 months.

Just as a point of context, my old Pro-shot timer cost the same amount in 1982.

HopetonBrown
06-09-2015, 06:23 PM
Buy 2 timers from Brownells. When one stops working, send it back for their lifetime replacement guarantee and use the 2nd in the interim.

41magfan
06-09-2015, 08:49 PM
Perhaps it's been mentioned here in the preceding 20+ pages (which I haven't reread), but has anyone determined what it is that's causing all these commercial shot timers to stop working?

I would guess that I've needed service on half a dozen over the years and the causes of the malfunctions varied. Significant exposure to moisture is a common culprit and was the demise of at least 2 .... a faulty circuit board caused another to act up .... one was completely blitzed when a muzzle break got too close to it while shooting from the bench ... and the others were simply wear and tear issues with the input keys.

In every case, I received great CS from PACT and Competition Electronics and the only harm experienced was the inconvenience.

Fiddler
06-10-2015, 12:26 AM
This looks awesome. My buddies work with Arduinos all the time. How do I go about getting your code for the shot timer? Great work.

Code and a link to a video demo are available here:
https://code.google.com/p/arduino-shot-timer/

The code could definitely use improvements - I haven't really touched it since that last post of mine.

The biggest issue with adding the SD card support (something I still haven't gotten around to) was the lack of PRAM on the arduino - there are whole new generations of Arduino and Arduino compatible boards out there now, so it's probably fixable.

But hey - it's open source - so maybe someone else will come along and help me fix it. :)

JLM
06-10-2015, 12:37 AM
Perhaps it's been mentioned here in the preceding 20+ pages (which I haven't reread), but has anyone determined what it is that's causing all these commercial shot timers to stop working?

THIS! And, what's is everyone buying these days? My friend bought a Pact, but haven't had a chance to play with it much yet. Seems solid so far.

LittleLebowski
06-10-2015, 07:38 AM
Code and a link to a video demo are available here:
https://code.google.com/p/arduino-shot-timer/

The code could definitely use improvements - I haven't really touched it since that last post of mine.

The biggest issue with adding the SD card support (something I still haven't gotten around to) was the lack of PRAM on the arduino - there are whole new generations of Arduino and Arduino compatible boards out there now, so it's probably fixable.

But hey - it's open source - so maybe someone else will come along and help me fix it. :)

Goddamn, that's really cool. May I share out the link to this post on other forums?

Peally
06-10-2015, 08:59 AM
I would guess that I've needed service on half a dozen over the years and the causes of the malfunctions varied. Significant exposure to moisture is a common culprit and was the demise of at least 2 .... a faulty circuit board caused another to act up .... one was completely blitzed when a muzzle break got too close to it while shooting from the bench ... and the others were simply wear and tear issues with the input keys.

In every case, I received great CS from PACT and Competition Electronics and the only harm experienced was the inconvenience.

I can echo this. While many last quite some time if taken care of there's no particularly durable ones that exist. The electronics simply can't handle moderately extreme weather or humidity. There is currently no "toughbook" of timers (WHICH I WANT)

EMC
06-10-2015, 04:05 PM
Instead of reinventing the wheel, is there a possibility of making a shockproof/waterproof case for existing models like is done with smart phones? Maybe that would cause issues with mic sensitivity.

Fiddler
06-11-2015, 04:01 PM
Goddamn, that's really cool. May I share out the link to this post on other forums?

Sure - please feel free! Worst case scenario people criticize my janky code - but that's the beauty - if they don't like it they can fix it. :)

Would love to see more people working on it. I should probably move it to github.

MDS
07-26-2015, 08:39 PM
I was talking about shot timers with a friend, and this project came up. He mentioned, and I agree, that adding a Raspberry Pi to handle all the data storage and user interface would not only make that stuff easier to write, it would also free up the Arduino coding to the sensor stuff (echo detection, etc.) Which led to thinking, why bother with an Arduino? I've not done much GPIO hacking but I can't imagine it would be that hard to get values from a microphone or piezzo sensor, but I don't know if the fidelity would be enough to do echo detection and etc.

Anyway, just a though. I'd still like to see a shot timer that uploaded my sessions to my PC.

SecondsCount
07-26-2015, 10:14 PM
I was talking about shot timers with a friend, and this project came up. He mentioned, and I agree, that adding a Raspberry Pi to handle all the data storage and user interface would not only make that stuff easier to write, it would also free up the Arduino coding to the sensor stuff (echo detection, etc.) Which led to thinking, why bother with an Arduino? I've not done much GPIO hacking but I can't imagine it would be that hard to get values from a microphone or piezzo sensor, but I don't know if the fidelity would be enough to do echo detection and etc.

Anyway, just a though. I'd still like to see a shot timer that uploaded my sessions to my PC.

A RP is a good idea until battery usage comes into play. The RPi draws about .2 Amps while an Arduino draws about 1/10 of that and can be programmed for sleep modes that will go to under .010 Amps or 10 milliamps.

Cool Breeze
08-20-2015, 10:17 PM
what is the consensus? If you had to by a timer now - which one would it be?

Fiddler
01-08-2017, 12:42 PM
Code and a link to a video demo are available here:
https://code.google.com/p/arduino-shot-timer/

The code could definitely use improvements - I haven't really touched it since that last post of mine.

The biggest issue with adding the SD card support (something I still haven't gotten around to) was the lack of PRAM on the arduino - there are whole new generations of Arduino and Arduino compatible boards out there now, so it's probably fixable.

But hey - it's open source - so maybe someone else will come along and help me fix it. :)

Just letting folks know that the code has been moved to github and updated: https://github.com/hestenet/arduino-shot-timer