Shotgun reloads: Which and Why?

[Tamara]

So, gauge gurus: Throw one into the ejection port overtop or underbottom? Top off the tube weak hand or is it more fumble-free to use the strong hand?

I'm going to dust off the shotgun some and I'm looking for things to try...

Is "Load Two" a race-only technique or is it viable outside the "professional driver on a closed circuit" setting?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkEwIWYSMHg

[shootist26]

how would you do the "load 2" method if you didn't have those special carriers he's got?

Also, for combat reload, I go over the top since my shells are all stored brass up on the side saddle

[Tamara]

how would you do the "load 2" method if you didn't have those special carriers he's got?

Well, I'd obviously need to get TACCOM to make some four-shell holders in Combat Taupe. :o

[Coyotesfan97]

I store rounds brass down on the sidesaddle and I go underneath on the combat reload. I use my support hand to reload the tube.


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[joshs]

I stuck with the traditional four shell caddies for awhile because I thought they were more practical, but I've never been able to come up with a scenario where I need to reload a shotgun outside of competition and I would have ammo in anything other than a sidesaddle. I've now gone full load 2 (and quadload) for shotgun reloading. You should note that most shotguns need to be modified to make load 2 easier and less painful.


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[GJM]

Leaving aside the load "2," and various carriers, there are two (possibly 3 if you count loading the tube only and avoiding the "ejection" port) schools of thought on loading the first round on an empty 870. Gunsite/Jeans/Cain teach to roll the shotgun slightly right, and take the cupped round from under into the port. Bill Rogers teaches to roll the shotgun port up, look into the port to verify no round is in there (to avoid the mother of all jams), and drop the round in from above. Both methods involve your support hand loading and dominant hand holding the shotgun. This all assumes a right hand shooter.

[jlw]

If I have run dry, I do over the top loads.

If not dry, I do support hand loads into the tube.

[TheRoland]

Loading the tube using "load 2" is ridiculously faster than one-at-a-time and takes *way* less time to learn than the caddy-juggle. After owning my very first shotgun for a week and a set of belt-mounted load-2 devices for two hours, I was down to 8 shells in 8.5 seconds, shot to shot. Could I be faster from a caddy? Sure, with weeks and weeks of dedicated practice. Could I be faster from a side-saddle? Doubt it.

I don't know if its race-only, but last time I checked, speed is very "tactical".

As for loading the chamber, running the gun dry pretty much meant the wheels had already come off. Toss a shell in there however and try not to do it again.

[Tamara]

I don't know if its race-only, but last time I checked, speed is very "tactical".

Yes, I know. I'm more concerned about "How much easier is it to kitten things up grabbing two at a time?" and "How dependent is it on me being a geardo and buying the right brand of shell holder and positioning it in the right place on the right brand of belt?"

Like I said, I'm just looking for pointers and stuff to play around with; I'm not jumping out of a helicopter tomorrow with an 870 in my hands and a knife in my teeth. :o

[TheRoland]

Yes, I know. I'm more concerned about "How much easier is it to kitten things up grabbing two at a time?" and "How dependent is it on me being a geardo and buying the right brand of shell holder and positioning it in the right place on the right brand of belt?"

Like I said, I'm just looking for pointers and stuff to play around with; I'm not jumping out of a helicopter tomorrow with an 870 in my hands and a knife in my teeth. :o

Sorry, I couldn't resist the line.

Personally, I find loading two to be only slightly more error-prone than the saddle. In my very first 3-gun match (which had a lot of shotgun reloads) I dropped one shell, on one or two occasions. This is awkward, because you then have an odd number in the tube, of course. It never seems to happen in practice.

For me, it was considerably more reliable than any sort of stacked caddy.

It can be done from a chest-rig or from anywhere on your belt that you can reach with a closed fist. It can be done with either hand. No special belt is required; any old gunbelt will do. I assume buying the right brand of device, though, is all-important. TACCOM is cheap but not particularly adjustable, Carbon Arms adjust anywhere but cost. Triangle's is chest-only. Other offerings are too new for me to know about.

It is slightly slower and more error-prone if you cannot see your loading port.


Bottom line: For me, shotgun isn't on the top of the list for practice or matches. Loading 2 lets me replace practice and skill with gear. That doesn't always work, but here it seems to.

[joshs]

The chameleon fabrics load two vest is probably the most cost effective way to get into a complete (or nearly complete depending on the matches you shoot) load 2 setup. I also think it is the best solution for load 2. It can take a long time to get it if you don't pay for express shipping.

I'm using the chameleon vest and AP Custom quad loads from the belt. If you are going to go with load 2, I wasn't very impressed with Taccom's offering. Their quad load is nicer, but still not as good as AP or Carbon Arms.

[LSP972]

Leaving aside the load "2," and various carriers, there are two (possibly 3 if you count loading the tube only and avoiding the "ejection" port) schools of thought on loading the first round on an empty 870. Gunsite/Jeans/Cain teach to roll the shotgun slightly right, and take the cupped round from under into the port. Bill Rogers teaches to roll the shotgun port up, look into the port to verify no round is in there (to avoid the mother of all jams), and drop the round in from above. Both methods involve your support hand loading and dominant hand holding the shotgun. This all assumes a right hand shooter.

^This. Coming from underneath is arguably quicker, because once the new shell is in the port you simply slide your loading hand forward and chamber said shell. Coming from "over the top", you must re-position your off hand, either to manipulate the fore-end or return to a proper firing hold if you chamber the shell with the gun still on its side and you off hand reversed (did that make sense???).

Much depends on exactly WHERE you are retrieving the fresh shells from, IMO. And I personally have found that the over-the-top method of loading the open port is less prone to fumbling, mainly because coming from underneath you must relax your grip on the shell when your hand contacts the bottom of the receiver, and use the fingers to guide it into place. From the top, you can keep a tight grip on the shell until its over the port, then just pop it in there.

I would cheerfully pay two dollars to watch Tam jump from a Huey (or a Robinson, for that matter) with ANY long gun, and a Kabar in her teeth...

.

[shootist26]

Do you always roll the shotgun to status check the ejection port prior to your first combat load?

[Kevin B.]

If I have run dry, I do over the top loads.

If not dry, I do support hand loads into the tube.

That is how I do it too.

[Chris Rhines]

Load-2/quad thoughts - I don't know that the carriers really lend themselves to duty use. Most of them stick out quite far from the body, and generally the shell retention is not all that great. The older four-shell and six-shell caddies from Choate, Man Mountain Engineering, etc., would probably work better for that kind of deal. Also, sidesaddles.

That said, quad-loading is the heat for 3-gun and practical shotgun competition - much, much, much faster than a sidesaddle, and much easier to learn than the weak-hand caddy load.

I think that the AP Customs quads are the best on the market by a mile. The Taccoms work well but are a little crude (like joshs, I don't care for their load-2 setup.) The Carbon Arms pinwheels, well, I never had any luck with them. They wouldn't hold adjustment, and the shell retention was way to stiff. I do like the CA FSLs. Whatever carrier you use, I've found that they work better on a vest than on the belt.

Loading off a sidesaddle, I turn the gun ejection port up, put the stock on my shoulder, and stuff the tube with my strong hand.

[ST911]

The load-2 method seems reliant upon a specific spares carry method. I'm trying to imagine how you'd acquire that grip on the shells from other carriers without repositioning at least a couple of times. That would be fumble prone and a time waster.

To load an empty chamber, I cant the gun inward, guide a round into the ejection port, support side overhand. Reloading the mag tube is also support hand. Spares carry is support side, or no more than midline.

I have large hands and long fingers and can guide a round in from underneath, but it's more fumble prone.

[David Armstrong]

And for a very different viewpoint I hold with the support hand and load with the strong hand. That way there is no fumbling around with over or under, seems to be a sturdier and more reliable process. YMMV.

[LHS]

I do my loading with the support hand, and tend to go over the top for ejection-port loading. That said, I haven't gotten into using RDS's on my shotties yet, and that might change things. I used to go over the top to charge my AKs, but now with RDS's, I find it's easier to come up under the gun.

I also alternate up-and-down with my sidesaddle (makes getting a solid grip on an individual shell with my truckasaurus hands a bit easier), using the bottom-facing rounds for reloading the tube and the top rounds for emergency reloads. However, if all I've got left are bottom-facing rounds, I will generally reload from below.

[GJM]

1) I have also found the RDS complicates over the top loading.

2) I have separated buck from slugs on a side saddle, having them face different directions to help with quick identification. However, this seems better for a shotgun that is stowed as opposed to carried in the field, as I have found brass up keeps them more securely in the side saddle when hiking with the shotgun.

3) I am open to being educated, but outside 3 Gun, course specific practice, or an unusual situation, I have never found a shotgun reload as fast as drawing a pistol. THat makes all the various methods for a "fighting" shotgun fall into a more administrative category, as I assume there will be time available, if I load.

4) We haven't discussed select slug in the 870, but my method is to try to leave one space open in the tube -- feed the slug into the tube, and run the action. In the Benelli M2, I grab the charging handle with my right (dominant) hand, hold it back ejecting the chambered round, and drop the slug in. With the Beretta, it isn't as easy as the Benelli, and I feed the tube like an 870, although you have to trip the release to get the slug out of the tube onto the carrier.

[ST911]

Has anyone quantified the difference in time between strong-side and support-side handling during reloads?

I would think there's a loss in the swap. I also wonder if it's mitigated by better dexterity and more positive strong side handling?

[ST911]

4) We haven't discussed select slug in the 870, but my method is to try to leave one space open in the tube -- feed the slug into the tube, and run the action. In the Benelli M2, I grab the charging handle with my right (dominant) hand, hold it back ejecting the chambered round, and drop the slug in. With the Beretta, it isn't as easy as the Benelli, and I feed the tube like an 870, although you have to trip the release to get the slug out of the tube onto the carrier.

For select-loading my pumps, I download the tube by one.

If select loading mid-stream, I'll dump the round on the elevator out of the ejection port and drop in the select round overhand like an empty chamber reload, recovering the dumped round as able.

[Wendell]

I like this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbCjcEO9z1A

[jlw]

And for a very different viewpoint I hold with the support hand and load with the strong hand. That way there is no fumbling around with over or under, seems to be a sturdier and more reliable process. YMMV.

I teach this method as "a way" of doing it, and it has its advantages. I simply personally prefer loading with the support hand.

[cclaxton]

Load-2/quad thoughts - I don't know that the carriers really lend themselves to duty use. Most of them stick out quite far from the body, and generally the shell retention is not all that great. The older four-shell and six-shell caddies from Choate, Man Mountain Engineering, etc., would probably work better for that kind of deal. Also, sidesaddles.

That said, quad-loading is the heat for 3-gun and practical shotgun competition - much, much, much faster than a sidesaddle, and much easier to learn than the weak-hand caddy load.

I think that the AP Customs quads are the best on the market by a mile. The Taccoms work well but are a little crude (like joshs, I don't care for their load-2 setup.) The Carbon Arms pinwheels, well, I never had any luck with them. They wouldn't hold adjustment, and the shell retention was way to stiff. I do like the CA FSLs. Whatever carrier you use, I've found that they work better on a vest than on the belt.

Loading off a sidesaddle, I turn the gun ejection port up, put the stock on my shoulder, and stuff the tube with my strong hand.

Chris, are you talking about the 4x4 or just the Classic 4? Also, how do you mount them to a vest?
http://www.cpwsa.com/ap_customs.htm

Strong hand with caddy faster than load-2...I guess with training...you do have to go to the vest/belt twice for load-2, where quad-load only once.

CC

[LHS]

And for a very different viewpoint I hold with the support hand and load with the strong hand. That way there is no fumbling around with over or under, seems to be a sturdier and more reliable process. YMMV.

While I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, I've been reloading support-hand enough that doing it strong-hand seems... weird and not very dextrous. I suppose it's all in which method you're used to. I reload all my other guns with my support hand, it just seemed natural to do the same with the shotgun.

That said, since reloading a shotgun isn't an all-or-nothing operation, I like being able to fire at any time by keeping my strong hand in position to do so. I can keep the weapon indexed while reloading, and if I have to fire before I'm finished filling the tube, so be it. Boom.

[Chris Rhines]

Chris, are you talking about the 4x4 or just the Classic 4? Also, how do you mount them to a vest?
http://www.cpwsa.com/ap_customs.htm

Strong hand with caddy faster than load-2...I guess with training...you do have to go to the vest/belt twice for load-2, where quad-load only once.

CC

Cody,

I'm talking about these guys (http://www.makereadyproshop.com/product-p/ap-cdy-ql8.htm), not the caddies. I mount them on my vest by punching two holes in the vest and using two cap-head screws and washers. You can also mount them to a Safariland ELS fork and attach them to an ELS receiver plate on your vest or belt.

[TheRoland]

Cody,

I'm talking about these guys (http://www.makereadyproshop.com/product-p/ap-cdy-ql8.htm), not the caddies. I mount them on my vest by punching two holes in the vest and using two cap-head screws and washers. You can also mount them to a Safariland ELS fork and attach them to an ELS receiver plate on your vest or belt.

And in case it's not clear from Chris's link, the "quad-load" is load-2, twice, with a single grab, not one-shell-at-a-time from a regular 4-shell caddy.

[Tamara]

the "quad-load" is load-2, twice, with a single grab

There are times I worry I lack the basic manual dexterity required by this sport. :eek:

[ST911]

There are times I worry I lack the basic manual dexterity required by this sport. :eek:

Better not chew gum and shoot.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't see how you could "load 2" if you don't have that gamer setup. For non-competition, loading would either be done off a side saddle/belt, or loose out of a pocket.

As for over or under port loading, I'd say that if you're reaching into a pocket for rounds, the way the brass is situated would dictate how you'd load; ie if brass is towards your pinky you're gonna go under.

It's my understanding Scott Reitz does not allow students running side saddles to have rounds "brass down" in his classes. I've heard LAPD learned a lesson running around during the N Hollywood shootout about that.

[Odin Bravo One]

I don't see how you could "load 2" if you don't have that gamer setup. For non-competition, loading would either be done off a side saddle/belt, or loose out of a pocket.

It's my understanding Scott Reitz does not allow students running side saddles to have rounds "brass down" in his classes. I've heard LAPD learned a lesson running around during the N Hollywood shootout about that.

After some thought, and playing around with both the auto and the 870............I'm pretty convinced the "Load 2" is limited to games. As is mentioned above, you gotta load from somewhere. And if you are carrying that kind of equipment outside of the game arena, then you are highly likely to be an armed professional of sorts. Carrying spare shells in a manner that make it speedy enough to grab two, for the "Load 2", is highly likely to be fast, but not too secure, meaning those shells may not even be there when you reach for them.

The positioning of the shotgun during the "Load 2" is also very disadvantageous for close quarters contacts, in the event you need to re-employ (assuming you were simply topping off), or worse, it was empty and you are now in a fist fight. Fist fights tend to go much more my way when I can smack someone with the muzzle of my shotgun instead of swinging my fists. Given that the shotgun, even with slugs, is a close quarters weapon, I have to question the "speed load" or need to "speed load" it. Certainly a fast reload on any gun is optimal, but as GJM mentions, transition to a pistol is faster than loading even a single round. Once the immediate threat has been addressed, and there is time to top off the shotgun, smoothly loading the gun properly and completely will give better end results. Reloads under extreme stress tend to be less smooth than those on the range I have found.

Scotty Reitz does encourage students to run brass up for side saddle stored rounds. Many people have learned the same lesson, most of the time the hard way. I've attended Uncle Scotty's shotgun course at least 4 or 5 times, and it was an awesomely painful weekend each time. In addition to the aspect of running the gun, you get "fighting with the shotgun", which is where gear selection, and storage come into play, as the SME's (In this case, Uncle Scotty) pass on their lessons learned the hard way, so students don't have to. After probably my 2nd time taking the course, I started playing with other reload techniques, and ended up having a full on yard sale of spare rounds on the floor after convincing myself that my preferred method was so fast it was worth risking losing one or two shells that were stored brass down. To quote another of my shooting "mentors"..........."Only after repeated, demoralizing failure, has learning occurred". He not only has said it to me many times, but I'm also pretty sure that I am likely the subject/person/context that came to mind at the moment that statement was first made. ........

Rolling Thunder is an excellent drill/event that is standard at every ITTS shotgun course and really drives home the importance of using proper technique for reloads, as well as proper storage of spare rounds. For years I ran the side saddle, a closed pouch with 6 additional shells, and a pouch filled with 35 loose rounds. Keeping the gun topped off while running the SS and from the pouch while not easy by any means during that drill, was feasible (assuming I didn't fat finger or butter finger the rounds). Trying to grab loose rounds from the pouch made keeping up much, much more difficult, to the point where keeping up was nearly out of the question by the time you get to "Shoot 4". Rolling Thunder also displays how NOT inferior the 870 is to the auto's. Subjective display when shooting with 3 others, as the shooters have different skill & proficiency levels. But shooting it solo (on the timer) with both the 870 and Benelli showed proper technique makes the 870 just as fast for engaging targets as the auto.

My opinion on the "Load 2" is game only. And nothing wrong with that either. If I ever take up shooting games with a shotgun, I will certainly work on "Load 2". Much faster than trying to one at a time them. But none of the offensive/defensive shotgun SME's I have had the opportunity to train with advocate such a reload technique. I'd guess it is probably why a lot of game techniques are not carrying over to the tactical/offensive/defensive techniques. In addition to the odds........the stakes are an important aspect to consider.

I reload my shotguns the same way I reload my pistols and carbines. Tucked into my workspace, where I can see what I am doing if I need to without moving my head, loading port inboard towards my centerline, and using my support hand to feed the tube. For a gun that is empty, and tossing the round into the chamber, I come under. Over the top was my old "go to" technique as I can shoot the gun one round just fine with my support hand on top of the barrel, even for multiple shoot, load, shoot iterations in a row. But addition of a MRDS makes over the top difficult enough to be worthless for me. Brass up in the SS, I use my support thumb (thumb down) to push the shell up and curling my fingers around the cartridge as it comes out. Then I simply roll my hand over, slide it under the receiver, and open my hand at the ejection port. It isn't as fast as I was with my "Boy Wonder knows more than Uncle Scotty" technique of storing my rounds brass down, but the rounds are always there with brass up, and again, being quick on the reload is important, but for true speed in getting back into the fight right now, pistol wins.

[Wendell]

Great post!

[LSP972]

As for over or under port loading, I'd say that if you're reaching into a pocket for rounds, the way the brass is situated would dictate how you'd load; ie if brass is towards your pinky you're gonna go under.



Yup.

Our training was geared toward the fact that, special circumstances excepted, our guys would be working with a bare gun and extra shells in a uniform pants pocket. We suggested they buy a SideSaddle, but not many did. And times change... my agency is issuing everyone a carbine, and all but the patrol guys can turn in the shotgun if they want to. Most are.

Same rationale I use when training with a carbine these days... while I still have all my ninja/kill-man SWAT vest, thigh carriers, and accoutrements, all that stuff is in a box somewhere in my "armory". So I train with the carbine and a couple of magazines stuffed in whatever pocket is handy. I do have a Blade-Tech single pouch for clipping on my trouser belt, but I find it interferes with my spare pistol mag carrier, so it usually stays in the war bag.

.

[cclaxton]

After some thought, and playing around with both the auto and the 870............I'm pretty convinced the "Load 2" is limited to games. As is mentioned above, you gotta load from somewhere. And if you are carrying that kind of equipment outside of the game arena, then you are highly likely to be an armed professional of sorts. Carrying spare shells in a manner that make it speedy enough to grab two, for the "Load 2", is highly likely to be fast, but not too secure, meaning those shells may not even be there when you reach for them.

The positioning of the shotgun during the "Load 2" is also very disadvantageous for close quarters contacts, in the event you need to re-employ (assuming you were simply topping off), or worse, it was empty and you are now in a fist fight. Fist fights tend to go much more my way when I can smack someone with the muzzle of my shotgun instead of swinging my fists. Given that the shotgun, even with slugs, is a close quarters weapon, I have to question the "speed load" or need to "speed load" it. Certainly a fast reload on any gun is optimal, but as GJM mentions, transition to a pistol is faster than loading even a single round. Once the immediate threat has been addressed, and there is time to top off the shotgun, smoothly loading the gun properly and completely will give better end results. Reloads under extreme stress tend to be less smooth than those on the range I have found.

Scotty Reitz does encourage students to run brass up for side saddle stored rounds. Many people have learned the same lesson, most of the time the hard way. I've attended Uncle Scotty's shotgun course at least 4 or 5 times, and it was an awesomely painful weekend each time. In addition to the aspect of running the gun, you get "fighting with the shotgun", which is where gear selection, and storage come into play, as the SME's (In this case, Uncle Scotty) pass on their lessons learned the hard way, so students don't have to. After probably my 2nd time taking the course, I started playing with other reload techniques, and ended up having a full on yard sale of spare rounds on the floor after convincing myself that my preferred method was so fast it was worth risking losing one or two shells that were stored brass down. To quote another of my shooting "mentors"..........."Only after repeated, demoralizing failure, has learning occurred". He not only has said it to me many times, but I'm also pretty sure that I am likely the subject/person/context that came to mind at the moment that statement was first made. ........

Rolling Thunder is an excellent drill/event that is standard at every ITTS shotgun course and really drives home the importance of using proper technique for reloads, as well as proper storage of spare rounds. For years I ran the side saddle, a closed pouch with 6 additional shells, and a pouch filled with 35 loose rounds. Keeping the gun topped off while running the SS and from the pouch while not easy by any means during that drill, was feasible (assuming I didn't fat finger or butter finger the rounds). Trying to grab loose rounds from the pouch made keeping up much, much more difficult, to the point where keeping up was nearly out of the question by the time you get to "Shoot 4". Rolling Thunder also displays how NOT inferior the 870 is to the auto's. Subjective display when shooting with 3 others, as the shooters have different skill & proficiency levels. But shooting it solo (on the timer) with both the 870 and Benelli showed proper technique makes the 870 just as fast for engaging targets as the auto.

My opinion on the "Load 2" is game only. And nothing wrong with that either. If I ever take up shooting games with a shotgun, I will certainly work on "Load 2". Much faster than trying to one at a time them. But none of the offensive/defensive shotgun SME's I have had the opportunity to train with advocate such a reload technique. I'd guess it is probably why a lot of game techniques are not carrying over to the tactical/offensive/defensive techniques. In addition to the odds........the stakes are an important aspect to consider.

I reload my shotguns the same way I reload my pistols and carbines. Tucked into my workspace, where I can see what I am doing if I need to without moving my head, loading port inboard towards my centerline, and using my support hand to feed the tube. For a gun that is empty, and tossing the round into the chamber, I come under. Over the top was my old "go to" technique as I can shoot the gun one round just fine with my support hand on top of the barrel, even for multiple shoot, load, shoot iterations in a row. But addition of a MRDS makes over the top difficult enough to be worthless for me. Brass up in the SS, I use my support thumb (thumb down) to push the shell up and curling my fingers around the cartridge as it comes out. Then I simply roll my hand over, slide it under the receiver, and open my hand at the ejection port. It isn't as fast as I was with my "Boy Wonder knows more than Uncle Scotty" technique of storing my rounds brass down, but the rounds are always there with brass up, and again, being quick on the reload is important, but for true speed in getting back into the fight right now, pistol wins.

This is a great explanation. So if you have a side-saddle and a caddy and you think "brass-down" is a bad idea, then that kinda forces us into strong-hand loading for right handed shooters. Otherwise, grabbing the rounds using left hand means pulling up to get the rounds out and then underneath to feed the magazine. Or should I just dispense with the side saddle and get extra caddy's?
CC

[Tamara]

So if you have a side-saddle and a caddy and you think "brass-down" is a bad idea, then that kinda forces us into strong-hand loading for right handed shooters. Otherwise, grabbing the rounds using left hand means pulling up to get the rounds out and then underneath to feed the magazine.

I think I see what he's saying. (I'm airgunning it here, but you probably can't see my hands. I'll find a camera. :D )

[David Armstrong]

I teach this method as "a way" of doing it, and it has its advantages. I simply personally prefer loading with the support hand.
Right, everybody has their preferences. The video of the Cowboy Shooting above your post is a good example. When speed loading I use the right-hand load she demonstrates. I usually carried a Safariland Model 080 clip-on 2-round holder for the fast loads, a belt pouch for the more normal times.
My preference came from finding I could hold the shotgun with a lot more stability with the left-hand being near the balance point as opposed to the right hand trying to balance it while everything was moving at speed and if there was a need to transition to the handgun it was easier to just pull the shotgun in with the weak hand Like Brian Felter taught me instead of dropping everything or transitioning the hold to get the strong hand free.

[Odin Bravo One]

This is a great explanation. So if you have a side-saddle and a caddy and you think "brass-down" is a bad idea, then that kinda forces us into strong-hand loading for right handed shooters. Otherwise, grabbing the rounds using left hand means pulling up to get the rounds out and then underneath to feed the magazine. Or should I just dispense with the side saddle and get extra caddy's?
CC




Over the top was my old "go to" technique as I can shoot the gun one round just fine with my support hand on top of the barrel, even for multiple shoot, load, shoot iterations in a row. But addition of a MRDS makes over the top difficult enough to be worthless for me. Brass up in the SS, I use my support thumb (thumb down) to push the shell up and curling my fingers around the cartridge as it comes out. Then I simply roll my hand over, slide it under the receiver, and open my hand at the ejection port.

I don't know what a "caddy" is in this context. I assume it is a pouch or shell holder of some sort.

Personally, I prefer the side saddle. I don't have to carry rounds on me for a HD type situation. Same for when I was LE, the SS, along with a Speedfeed stock allowed me to not only carry 16+1, but also gave me the options for 00, slug, or less lethal.

Rather than look for hardware, I'd suggest finding the software solution to the reloading equation. Once that is done, we can go on the hunt for the piece of gear that best supports that technique.

[HopetonBrown]

But shooting it solo (on the timer) with both the 870 and Benelli showed proper technique makes the 870 just as fast for engaging targets as the auto.

I took a Benelli M4 to Louis Awerbuck and an 870P to Rob Haught. The only time the M4 was faster than a pump was multiple rounds on a single target. Once you start engaging multiple targets (a la "Flying W" with Rob) the playing field levels out. During Rolling Thunder with the M4 some of the pump guys were asking that those of us with autos slow down a bit because they weren't having enough time to reload as we were shooting "too fast".

One of the gear lessons learned was that my Mesa aluminum side saddle is too slow to get rounds out, I preferred the OSOE shotgun cards with elastic holders and velcro on my 870P and have since ditched the Mesa.

[Sal Picante]

Just to throw this into the mix: you can do a slower load-2 from a 4-holder caddy... Tough to explain, but fairly simple to show - I'll see if I can't video it later.

[GJM]

I took a Benelli M4 to Louis Awerbuck and an 870P to Rob Haught. The only time the M4 was faster than a pump was multiple rounds on a single target. Once you start engaging multiple targets (a la "Flying W" with Rob) the playing field levels out.

Leaving aside that a M4 is one of the slower semi-auto shotguns, this is not my experience. When I set up something like three widely spaced steel, my semi-auto times with a M2 or Beretta are WAY faster, and my hit rate is better because I have less to do between targets.

[joshs]

Just to throw this into the mix: you can do a slower load-2 from a 4-holder caddy... Tough to explain, but fairly simple to show - I'll see if I can't video it later.

Especially if you put two next to each other, which is essentially what a Carbon Arms FSL is.

[Sal Picante]

Sorry, I meant a 4-caddy like this:

http://www.apcustomusa.com/images/classic4lrg.jpg

[jetfire]

My favorite shotgun reload is to put another mag in my Saiga. :D

[joshs]

My favorite shotgun reload is to put another mag in my Saiga. :D

Does it count as a "reload" when you have to pull the charging handle in between each shot? :)


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[jetfire]

Does it count as a "reload" when you have to pull the charging handle in between each shot? :)


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That's just that legendary Russian reliability making sure you have a round chambered.

[Tamara]

Does it count as a "reload" when you have to pull the charging handle in between each shot? :)

The best quip I've heard is that the Open Saiga is about at the same state of development as the Open double-stack 1911 circa 1990.

[GJM]

Sorry, I meant a 4-caddy like this:

http://www.apcustomusa.com/images/classic4lrg.jpg

this is what I often use, except mine is tactical green!

What is your technique?

[jetfire]

The best quip I've heard is that the Open Saiga is about at the same state of development as the Open double-stack 1911 circa 1990.

Actually, that seems pretty fair. The big problem Saigas have is that they're not designed to work with all those three gun mods, so dudes are forever trying to get it to do something it doesn't want to do.

Also, mine is currently broken and awaiting my tender ministrations.

[LHS]

That's just that legendary Russian reliability making sure you have a round chambered.

http://content9.flixster.com/photo/11/31/26/11312651_ori.jpg
Heavy eez good. Heavy eez... reliable.

[Sal Picante]

http://content9.flixster.com/photo/11/31/26/11312651_ori.jpg
Heavy eez good. Heavy eez... reliable.

You win!:D

[Sal Picante]

That's just that legendary Russian reliability making sure you have a round chambered.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UAz75Mq-TI

[Al T.]

I was so hoping ACU dude was going to get kicked in the nuts by that Saiga...

[Sal Picante]

I was so hoping ACU dude was going to get kicked in the nuts by that Saiga...

Guilty... :rolleyes:

[Default.mp3]

Amusing video.

More Saiga fail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twEz_iakd1I

[Sal Picante]

Just to throw this into the mix: you can do a slower load-2 from a 4-holder caddy... Tough to explain, but fairly simple to show - I'll see if I can't video it later.

Finally got around to making this vid...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-oU_e2Wo8

I'm not a total 3-gunner (focus for me is pistol work...) but when I do, I usually reload using the weak-hand or strong hand load-4 methods or loading. I got decent enough with this style of reloading, though I am a bit slow taking ~5 seconds to load 4 shells.

After talking a lot with Jason Carillo of XRails, I'm definitely seeing the benefits and gross-motor-only movements necessary in executing a load-2 or load-4 reload. The only caveat being that those methods require dedicated equipment to perform.

While I've sat on the fence about it, I started playing around with a load-2 method that would work from a traditional 3,4, or 6-shell caddy. While certainly not the fastest, it does seem to work. The load here was "botched" a bit and was still just over 5seconds...

I'm a righty, so lefties, flip this around:

1.) Set shells in a caddy with the brass facing the outside of your strong side.
I.e. Brass should point "right", so that when you grab the shells, they brass is along the thumb and index finger.

2.) Rotate the gun under the armpit with your strong-arm/hand so the loading port is facing up.

3.) Grab 2-shells off the carrier. Depending on your carrier this may take a bit of practice. In the video I'm running an AP custom "Classic" 1x4 carrier. I also have MT Man carriers and those work just fine too. Interestingly quad carriers seem to mess me up a lot with this method...

4.) Control the lifter with your thumb and drop in a shell, use the thumb to push it in.
(I'm using a Mossberg 590 for the video since my Mossberg JM was out for work)

5.) Repeat Step 4.

6.) Repeat the grab for the final 2 shells and repeat steps 4 & 5.

[LSP972]

That said, since reloading a shotgun isn't an all-or-nothing operation, I like being able to fire at any time by keeping my strong hand in position to do so. I can keep the weapon indexed while reloading, and if I have to fire before I'm finished filling the tube, so be it. Boom.

That, right there, is why it is called "combat loading" in some circles. Personally, my HD plan for if I run the gun dry and the game is still on, is to drop the thing and transition. I do have extra rounds on the gun, but....

However, if one's Plan A (the shotgun) is the ONLY plan- whether that be from design or circumstance- then getting it reloaded quickly might be a good skill to acquire. Loading with the support hand just makes more sense if you have no Plan B.

.

[LSP972]

More Saiga fail:


That was frigging hilarious! Thank you, sir...

.