P30 +P not recommended

[Rich]

Reading my P SERIES Operators manual

Page 17 Note use of +P or +P+ ammo accelerates wear and reduces service life on component parts of any pistol , including the P series And is NOT recommended.


But then I remember reading about the USP Compact 9mm at the HK website when trying to see what pistol I wanted.
They pretty much brag that is rated +P

Why wouldn't HK build to the same specs?

[Dagga Boy]

There is a big difference between "not recommended" and you "can't shoot it". I have found that HK pistols are far more tolerant of higher pressure loads than most. They also tend to be sprung and built around NATO spec. loads which are often hotter than what is found commercially.

[SecondsCount]

Interesting. My P30's definitely like ammo on the hotter side.

[Rich]

There is a big difference between "not recommended" and you "can't shoot it". I have found that HK pistols are far more tolerant of higher pressure loads than most. They also tend to be sprung and built around NATO spec. loads which are often hotter than what is found commercially.

When I bought my first J frame back in the 80`s a M37
It wasn't rated for +P. But for SD I would use FBI loads.
I just didn't shoot many at all. just enough to know POA/POI



Lets say something happen kaboom and I was shooting my stash of win ranger 127 +P+ in my brand new P30.
Do you think HK would help me out?

I just wish the P30 was built to take punishment like the +P rated USP 9mm compact ( one can go to HK website and see what they say about the +P ammo use and the USP C)

One reason ? I happen to have only +P and +P+ ammo !

And I don't care for 147gr

Might have to look for some federal 124 bonded

[gtmtnbiker98]

They run +P fine. My department just fielded them and we are running Winchester 124gr Ranger NATO Spec and +P Ranger T's with no worries.

[Rich]

They run +P fine. My department just fielded them and we are running Winchester 124gr Ranger NATO Spec and +P Ranger T's with no worries.

yeah I'm sure its fine.

One just has maintenance schedules more often. or change small parts more often.

And if a LE had a problem I'm sure HK would handle without any problems. Not to sure about the regular joe?

My question wasn't if the P30 could take the abuse of +P or +P+?


My question more or less was Why not build to same or better specs?

Thanks for the help though.

[Rich]

Question # 2

P30 9mm and P30 40S&W

Do they share the same size frame

[WDW]

It's just good old corporate lawyer talk. +P is just fine to shoot in a P30. They have to say that. I think every manual in every firearm made these days says something to the same effect.

[GJM]

Question # 2

P30 9mm and P30 40S&W

Do they share the same size frame

My P30 9 and 40 fit the same holsters and sure look to be identical other than the hole in the barrel and markings on the side.

[Dagga Boy]

yeah I'm sure its fine.

One just has maintenance schedules more often. or change small parts more often.

And if a LE had a problem I'm sure HK would handle without any problems. Not to sure about the regular joe?

My question wasn't if the P30 could take the abuse of +P or +P+?


My question more or less was Why not build to same or better specs?

Thanks for the help though.

So what spec should they build for? If I remember correctly, here is where they end up:

9mm SAMMI spec is 35,000 psi
9mm NATO is in the area of 36,500 to 41,000 as the proof load
9mm +P is in the 37,500-38,000 range
9mm +P+ is often over 43,000 to lord knows what as there is no real standard.

So what load should HK spring the guns for and build to? Want to read a bunch of complaints about the P30 and it being unreliable, just look at many of the forums where people are shooting their brand new fresh sprung P30's with WW 115gr. training ammo (or lighter if that is possible) and having reliability issues till the guns get shot awhile. I try to explain to these folks that these are essentially German/European police guns that are sprung for NATO spec ammo (essentially, towards the hot end). What do you think reliability would be like if they had recoil springs and buffers to contend with ammunition that is well over the NATO Proof load and has no real standard. A gun that will give a long life of reliable operation with low end training ammunition while also having no issues and actually set up for near ideal operation with the not shot often duty loads makes a lot of sense.

[Suvorov]

It's just good old corporate lawyer talk. +P is just fine to shoot in a P30. They have to say that. I think every manual in every firearm made these days says something to the same effect.

While I'm sure you are right, it is interesting to note that the USP manual specifically states that +P loads are OK.

Didn't Todd fire a lot of +P loads through his P30 when he was evaluating it :confused:

[Dagga Boy]

The manual is generic on "+P" and "+P+" ammunition. Lately there are ammunition makers selling "+P" and "+P+" .40, which is not a SAMMI spec. I have seen some of this stuff run some insane numbers and are very destructive on pistols. Because there is no real standard, its a crapshoot on what you are getting. I know for a fact that it can work over a USP pretty good in very short order. These loads were not really around in the early USP days, and the new manual may be a reflection on this and the issues these loads cause. If this is the case, it is in HK's best interest to put this language in the manual.

Additionally, the top of the page in the manual states that the pistols are good with both SAMMI and NATO spec. ammunition. If the +P 9mm is within SAMMI specs, then you should be fine based on the language on the top of page 17.

[JMS]

...and even if it's pressures in excess of the SAMMI and NATO specs, it only states that it can cause accellerated wear, not that it can't or shouldn't be used. In military technical manuals for any given thingy or system, there's three types of heads-up one will see: Note, Caution, Warning.

Note - item or action recommended or required for proper function and/or maintenance.

Caution - item, action or conditon to be avoided, lest one risk or guarantee damage to equipment.

Warning - item, action or condition to be avoided, lest one risk or guarantee injury or death to personnel (and usually, though not always, damage to equipment; secondary consideration, at best).

What the HK manual has is a "Note," because all it really means is that one MIGHT have to change certain components out more often using +P than one otherwise would....maybe. What action one chooses to take based upon that is ultimately in the hands of the user. In the case of my P30, I took it to mean "Plan accordingly...."

[Rich]

It's just good old corporate lawyer talk. +P is just fine to shoot in a P30. They have to say that. I think every manual in every firearm made these days says something to the same effect.

No
Other pistols manufactures state +P is GTG


One thing

Ive never seen a Pistol rated for +P+ But yet we have several +P+ loadings

[Rich]

So what spec should they build for? If I remember correctly, here is where they end up:

9mm SAMMI spec is 35,000 psi
9mm NATO is in the area of 36,500 to 41,000 as the proof load
9mm +P is in the 37,500-38,000 range
9mm +P+ is often over 43,000 to lord knows what as there is no real standard.

So what load should HK spring the guns for and build to? Want to read a bunch of complaints about the P30 and it being unreliable, just look at many of the forums where people are shooting their brand new fresh sprung P30's with WW 115gr. training ammo (or lighter if that is possible) and having reliability issues till the guns get shot awhile. I try to explain to these folks that these are essentially German/European police guns that are sprung for NATO spec ammo (essentially, towards the hot end). What do you think reliability would be like if they had recoil springs and buffers to contend with ammunition that is well over the NATO Proof load and has no real standard. A gun that will give a long life of reliable operation with low end training ammunition while also having no issues and actually set up for near ideal operation with the not shot often duty loads makes a lot of sense.

Like I stated before

same or better than USP

[Rich]

While I'm sure you are right, it is interesting to note that the USP manual specifically states that +P loads are OK.

Didn't Todd fire a lot of +P loads through his P30 when he was evaluating it :confused:


Yes Todd used +P

Again Its NOT about if the P30 can shoot +P ( even though it isn't rated for it in the manual.)


( If it shares the same frame as the P30 in 40 cal I would think Its a safe bet )

But still why not build to the same specs or better

Surely HK didn't design a P30 around win usa ball

Since the USP C can feed win usa 115 ball

[Dagga Boy]

Like I stated before

same or better than USP

Did you read what I wrote above about the .40? You manual says you can shoot SAMMI or NATO spec.....which covers +P 9mm, just like the USP. It does not cover +P .40 as there is no .40 +P that is SAMMI or NATO spec, and +P+ in either caliber that there is no .40 or 9mm load in.

[Rich]

My P30 9 and 40 fit the same holsters and sure look to be identical other than the hole in the barrel and markings on the side.

Thanks GJM

[Rich]

Did you read what I wrote above about the .40? You manual says you can shoot SAMMI or NATO spec.....which covers +P 9mm, just like the USP. It does not cover +P .40 as there is no .40 +P that is SAMMI or NATO spec, and +P+ in either caliber that there is no .40 or 9mm load in.

Yes

I'm aware of Buffalo Bore and Double Tap ammo that sells to the H.V. crowd thinking a few more FPS will make a big difference.

I also would never buy any of there loadings. but that's me.

[Dagga Boy]

Yes

I'm aware of Buffalo Bore and Double Tap ammo that sells to the H.V. crowd thinking a few more FPS will make a big difference.

I also would never buy any of there loadings. but that's me.

Unfortunately, people are buying and running this stuff. I know that HK has seen issues with some very unusual and rapid wear issues due to +P and higher (and some of this stuff is running over a hundred feet per second faster than what is listed..which is already over the top) .40 S&W rounds. It is for that H.V. crowd and the damage HK is seeing in guns (including the USP's) that is what is fueling the updated warnings in the manual. Many folks believe that if the ammunition comes in a box from a manufacturer that it must be SAMMI or NATO spec, and this is not the case.

[Chuck Haggard]

Are you trying to tell me that there are no magic bullets?

When did that happen?

[GJM]

...and even if it's pressures in excess of the SAMMI and NATO specs, it only states that it can cause accellerated wear, not that it can't or shouldn't be used. In military technical manuals for any given thingy or system, there's three types of heads-up one will see: Note, Caution, Warning.

Note - item or action recommended or required for proper function and/or maintenance.

Caution - item, action or conditon to be avoided, lest one risk or guarantee damage to equipment.

Warning - item, action or condition to be avoided, lest one risk or guarantee injury or death to personnel (and usually, though not always, damage to equipment; secondary consideration, at best).

What the HK manual has is a "Note," because all it really means is that one MIGHT have to change certain components out more often using +P than one otherwise would....maybe. What action one chooses to take based upon that is ultimately in the hands of the user. In the case of my P30, I took it to mean "Plan accordingly...."

Interesting as these same three -- note, caution and warning are used in most of the turbine aircraft flight manuals I have seen.

[ffhounddog]

Weapons and Aircraft, I have seen this on military vehicles as well.

I am wondering if +P might be NATO+ to the European arms manufacturers.

[Rich]

Weapons and Aircraft, I have seen this on military vehicles as well.

I am wondering if +P might be NATO+ to the European arms manufacturers.

Our win 9mm 142 gr with Nato circle cross isn't near +P

[Rich]

Unfortunately, people are buying and running this stuff. I know that HK has seen issues with some very unusual and rapid wear issues due to +P and higher (and some of this stuff is running over a hundred feet per second faster than what is listed..which is already over the top) .40 S&W rounds. It is for that H.V. crowd and the damage HK is seeing in guns (including the USP's) that is what is fueling the updated warnings in the manual. Many folks believe that if the ammunition comes in a box from a manufacturer that it must be SAMMI or NATO spec, and this is not the case.

380ACP+P & 40S&W +P

I've read that one of guys started selling his reloads from his garage.
One should wonder if he has all the fancy tech to tell or test for pressure.


So back to the USP Compact 9mm and the P30 9mm
Is it your opinion they share the same maintenance schedule or should I say service life?


BTW

Thanks for the info

[Dagga Boy]

From everything I have seen and read and experience with both systems, the P30 is every bit the USP-C in terms of what standards they are built to and I would actually venture that the P30 would exceed the USP's in long term service life. Really, the only major item with the P30 people have seen is the trigger return spring.

[Rich]

From everything I have seen and read and experience with both systems, the P30 is every bit the USP-C in terms of what standards they are built to and I would actually venture that the P30 would exceed the USP's in long term service life. Really, the only major item with the P30 people have seen is the trigger return spring.

That's good to hear.
Thanks

[Molon]

I am wondering if +P might be NATO+ to the European arms manufacturers.


For starters, there is no such thing as a 9mm "NATO+" specification. Secondly, contrary to all the nonsense posted by Internet Commandos, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, (7.85” EPVAT barrels to be specific) not actual pistol barrels. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain duty/self-defense round.

As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot standard pressure load fired from a Beretta 92. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/6qhibittqd.jpg


Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/t7y4024qhq.jpg



Here is some additional chronograph data (with muzzle velocities), this time comparing Federal's 9mm 124 grain NATO load to several other 124 grain duty loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel. Note that the 9mm NATO load is the slowest load in the table.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/zzytjvjkhx.jpg



.....

[Suvorov]

For starters, there is no such thing as a 9mm "NATO+" specification. Secondly, contrary to all the nonsense posted by Internet Commandos, there is nothing at all “hot” about the 9mm 124 grain NATO load. The velocity figures that people like to throw around for the 9mm 124 grain NATO round are from test barrels, (7.85” EPVAT barrels to be specific) not actual pistol barrels. Even when fired from a Beretta 92, with its 5 inch barrel, the 124 grain NATO round doesn’t even come close to the velocities people claim. In fact, there is little difference in velocity between the 9mm 124 grain NATO round and a modern standard pressure 9mm 124 grain duty/self-defense round.

As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot standard pressure load fired from a Beretta 92. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps.

Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The average instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the Gold Dot load.

Here is some additional chronograph data (with muzzle velocities), this time comparing Federal's 9mm 124 grain NATO load to several other 124 grain duty loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel. Note that the 9mm NATO load is the slowest load in the table.

.....

Molon, I'm wondering where the Winchester 9mm NATO came from? Was it commercial/LE production Ranger or was it brown box military production? I am wondering because back in the 1990s when Federal started making their commercial M882 ammo in the white box, I purchased a bunch. I later then worried about if they were as "hot" as I understood M882 to be, and so I called Federal and spoke to one of their reps. What he told me is that they were not as hot as the M882 loads that went to the military but still on the hot side for the 9mm (he didn't say +P or anything like that so I assumed regular 9mm). Who knows if the rep was telling me this just to keep me happy or not? As someone who doesn't have a chrono, I've never bothered to find out, but I always figured based on that phone call that the civilian marketed stuff was not as hot as the real military production ammo. :confused:

[ToddG]

Molon -- I'd be more likely to question the particular lot of ammo, personally. The Speer 54882 I've been shooting for most of the past year, for example, is a "mil-spec" 124gr rated at 1,220fps from a standard (4") 9mm test barrel. From an actual 5" gun I want to say it averaged just a hair under 1,200fps and was very similar to the 124gr +p HST (rated at 1,200fps) which is definitely rated from a 4" barrel (see here (http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/details.aspx?id=675)).

There are other factors that affect peak chamber pressure than just bullet velocity. Flash suppressants, specific powder blends, powder grain size/shape, etc. can all change pressure without a one-to-one ratio in velocity.

[Rich]

Molon -- I'd be more likely to question the particular lot of ammo, personally. The Speer 54882 I've been shooting for most of the past year, for example, is a "mil-spec" 124gr rated at 1,220fps from a standard (4") 9mm test barrel. From an actual 5" gun I want to say it averaged just a hair under 1,200fps and was very similar to the 124gr +p HST (rated at 1,200fps) which is definitely rated from a 4" barrel (see here (http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/details.aspx?id=675)).

There are other factors that affect peak chamber pressure than just bullet velocity. Flash suppressants, specific powder blends, powder grain size/shape, etc. can all change pressure without a one-to-one ratio in velocity.

I don't have a chrony.

When shooting 124 GD+P and ranger 127+P+ I cant tell much of a difference if any.

[Rich]

Thanks Molon

That's some old bs and it still passed around in gun shops. Its to bad.

BTW I had no idea that the Sig 9mm P229 barrels are 3.8

I thought it would be the same as the P229 40/357 3.9

[Chuck Haggard]

When we first got M9s in my unit, and brand new ammo to go shoot them, I snuck my crono to drill weekend to check the velocity. Lucky me my CO and PSG at the time were gun nuts too. That for real Army issued ammo was running just under 1200fps from our guns. Warmish but nothing spectacular.

[MikeO]

I'm sure it's built to handle the CIP limit as well as SAAMI. SAAMI +P limit is 38,500 psi/265 MPa. The SAAMI and CIP protocols are slightly different though. A SAAMI +P limit load tested using the CIP protocol comes out at 37,400 psi/258 MPa. IIRC, the CIP limit is 260 or 270 MPa, so the CIP limit is a bit higher than SAAMI +P. Clear as mud?

When I retired in 98 I remember running some US NATO 124 through M11s and M9s; about 1150/1200 w the stuff we had then. Speer 124 +P GD about the same.

[Rich]

Anyone know how many pounds the recoil spring is rated ? (P30 9mm)

[TheTrevor]

Anyone know how many pounds the recoil spring is rated ? (P30 9mm)

HK isn't particularly forthcoming with specs for spring rates. My USP armorer's manual does not disclose spring rates, for example.

I do know that the full-size USP (not the USP Compact upon which the P30 is based) factory-spec recoil spring is 12lb (9mm/40) or 14lb (45). I'd be inclined to guess that the P30 recoil spring is likely to be in the 12-14lb range as well.

[Dagga Boy]

I don t know if they are even rated in pounds at what the factory spec would be. I would also venture that based on how the newer series guns do not work as well with light training ammo as the USP series, I would venture they are sprung a little heavier if not the same.