Weak hand or off-side weapon

[BenC]

I see lots of people carry assuming that their strong hand, or both hands will be free and available if they are attacked. I am not sure this is a truly realistic view.

Any good recommendations for a weak side carry knife or other close contact tool, and training/instruction to go with same?

How about a less lethal tool, like OC? Deploying that with my weak hand will still allow my strong hand to be ready on my pistol if things go from bad to worse; it won't do much for grappling defense though.

[Jay Cunningham]

I see lots of people carry assuming that their strong hand, or both hands will be free and available if they are attacked. I am not sure this is a truly realistic view.

Can you be more specific?

[ToddG]

I carry my pistol in a location that allows it to be accessed with either right or left hand.
When I carry a BUG, it goes in my weak side front pocket specifically because I figure if I'm relying on my BUG, it might be because my right hand has been injured.

[JSGlock34]

Todd - not to derail this thread (much) but that's the first time I've heard you talk about a BUG. What kind of firearm to do you use for pocket carry?

[BenC]

Can you be more specific?

Do you have any tools, tips or tricks for keeping your firearm accessible to both hands, or getting the hand that can reach the gun free if it becomes entangled or obstructed.

This is not something I or the people I know have given much thought.

[Jay Cunningham]

Do you have any tools, tips or tricks for keeping your firearm accessible to both hands, or getting the hand that can reach the gun free if it becomes entangled or obstructed.

This is not something I or the people I know have given much thought.

Yeah I might have a few, but I was interested in some of the specifics of what you were referring to. I don't disagree with you at all.

[Rverdi]

Ben,
I've always been a little leery of placing a lot of emphasis on weak side weapons because, frankly, most of us suck weak handed. Try putting your favorite folder in your weak side pocket and deploy it. Same goes for spraying oc, any type of impact weapon, etc.
If I was going to recommend anything, it would be a small fixed blade just forward of your mag pouch, you're much more likely to reliably deploy a fixed blade under stress.
Honestly, folders are difficult enough under perfect circumstances I don't carry one at all in uniform anymore, because it became fairly obvious that if things are bad enough that I need an edged weapon to defend myself, I'm unlikely to get it out, open and in the fight. I carry a fixed blade, weak side, under my mag pouches.

[ToddG]

Todd - not to derail this thread (much) but that's the first time I've heard you talk about a BUG. What kind of firearm to do you use for pocket carry?

When I carry a BUG, which I don't do as often as I should, it's either a S&W 442 or more likely my Ruger LCP.

[YVK]

Ben,
I've always been a little leery of placing a lot of emphasis on weak side weapons because, frankly, most of us suck weak handed. Try putting your favorite folder in your weak side pocket and deploy it. Same goes for spraying oc, any type of impact weapon, etc.
If I was going to recommend anything, it would be a small fixed blade just forward of your mag pouch, you're much more likely to reliably deploy a fixed blade under stress.
Honestly, folders are difficult enough under perfect circumstances I don't carry one at all in uniform anymore, because it became fairly obvious that if things are bad enough that I need an edged weapon to defend myself, I'm unlikely to get it out, open and in the fight. I carry a fixed blade, weak side, under my mag pouches.

I think this is awesome advice, and I have some experience corroborating this. Few years ago I bought an M-waved Emerson knife and spent a good deal of time practicing deployment out of pocket. I thought I became good, until I was asked to transition to it during one of classes. It didn't go well...
I carry a Shivworks Clinch Pick accessible to draw by both hands, advantage given to weak one.

[derekb]

Ben,
I've always been a little leery of placing a lot of emphasis on weak side weapons because, frankly, most of us suck weak handed.

The weak hand can be trained, though. I play the guitar, and for most guitar players, the weak hand is doing significantly more intricate work than the strong hand most of the time.

[firecop019]

I'm with Todd, mine's is on my off-hand front pocket and it's a SW342.

If you are a CCW holder I'd stick with a firearm and not worry about a non lethal device. If you do, expose yourself to it, know what it will do to YOU! There is hardly ever perfect conditions when spray is deployed and you more than likely will be affected by it in one way, shape or form. You need to know ahead of time what that stuff will do to you and know that you can function through it.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've had a change of heart about some of that thinking. OC spray is a good option against dogs and drunks; it's a way to help you disengage from something that you'd really probably rather not shoot, but that could hurt you if you let it. A strobing light is a nice option to have as well.

When I carry a BUG, I carry it in my left front (weak side) pocket, for all the reasons previously mentioned.

[Rverdi]

The weak hand can be trained, though. I play the guitar, and for most guitar players, the weak hand is doing significantly more intricate work than the strong hand most of the time.

I can't disagree that the non dominant hand can be trained, but to what degree? Yes, perhaps we can play the guitar perfectly non dominant, but can we do it while a 200 pound drunk is trying to beat the piss out of us and your dominant hand is pinning your gun in your holster?
I've had a couple of hands on my weapon that were not mine and it amps you up in quite an uncomfortable way.

[SLG]

I can't disagree that the non dominant hand can be trained, but to what degree? Yes, perhaps we can play the guitar perfectly non dominant, but can we do it while a 200 pound drunk is trying to beat the piss out of us and your dominant hand is pinning your gun in your holster?
I've had a couple of hands on my weapon that were not mine and it amps you up in quite an uncomfortable way.


+1

Once another person touches your holstered weapon, I find that finely trained ideas don't always pan out.

I shoot/strike reasonably well left handed, but am a big believer that weapons should and will be (absent obvious circumstances) used strong hand. I have always used OC/baton/knives/saps etc strong hand. Doesn't mean I carry them strong side always, but they are set up to be drawn and used strong hand. If you need to transition to your pistol, I either re holster the current weapon, or just drop it. Trying to manage OC in one hand and a pistol in the other is not my idea of a winning solution.

Then there are the in-fight access issues (Southnarc?). I'm a small guy, but I have always believed that if someone tries to grab your gun or enter your hand to hand space, you need to be able to FIGHT, and that hardware solutions to software problems don't usually work. Having said that, i really like my Clinch Pick, set up for strong side access. This just my opinion, as there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and your fighting experience/training/size/dexterity and preferences will all be different than mine.

[boyscoutg36]

This is one of the reasons I'm such an advocate for appendix carry. My pistol is usually around 1230 or 1oclock, it is easily accessible by both hands. I carry a folder, but I think one of the best contact tools is a small Surefire E2 or an equivalent. Hammering on someones face or hands with that raised bevel is a good hasty less lethal option. I think it is good to consider less lethal options since not all problems are nails.

[ToddG]

I'm not a big believer in using an off-side folding knife as a retention aid. When I've been in classes that do advocate it, they usually set up the scenario so it's easy to deploy the knife -- either the defender is backed into a corner and can't be tossed around, or the attacker focuses 100% on the gun and doesn't try to disrupt the position or orientation of the defender. As soon as someone aggressively and purposely tries to get the gun while preventing you from opening that knife WHO under stress during a wrestling match, it doesn't seem to go as well.

I'm signed up for Snarc's ECQC (http://www.shivworks.com/pdf/ECQC%20Course%20overview%20.pdf) class later this year down in Culpeper, and imagine that a Clinch Pick will be on my shopping list very shortly thereafter.

[jar]

I'm signed up for Snarc's ECQC (http://www.shivworks.com/pdf/ECQC%20Course%20overview%20.pdf) class later this year down in Culpeper, and imagine that a Clinch Pick will be on my shopping list very shortly thereafter.

That's really the answer to this thread. I've taken that class 3 times and each time I learn more, and learn even more I don't know. All the talking about it on the internet doesn't mean much until you've actually tried it with a resisting opponent. I think folders are next to useless for fighting. I carry one to open boxes and cut rope and such, but I have no illusions about being able to access it reliably in a fight.

[David Armstrong]

To build on both Rich and Todd, my off-side carry is a Ka-Bar TDI knife because it is fixed, easy to deploy, and designed to be used in a rather clumsy manner.

[SouthNarc]

The small fixed blade positioned for access during entanglement is the optimal set-up. Now with that being said, a fixed blade only augments a weapon retention technique. Small fixed blades don't have kinetic energy like a bullet and most will not realize that they are cut or stabbed.

I'm not a fan of "just" locking the gun down with the strong hand and stabbing away with the off-hand. Ideally your weapons retention technique works EXACTLY the same regardless of whether you have the ability to augment said technique with a small fixed blade or not.

Most of the answers will become self-evident from doing the required work in the problem area.

Ther are several folding and fixed blade deployments in these videos, some succesfull, some not so.


http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

http://www.vimeo.com/4271788

http://www.vimeo.com/4447329

[Bill Lance]

I probably am missing it, but---if carried "off-side", where would/do you place a small fixed blade so you do not draw it under stress and try to reload your pistol with a knife? I can see me doing that and slicing and dicing my own dominant-side wrist.
Sorry if that is a dumb question.

Bill

[Dropkick]

I probably am missing it, but---if carried "off-side", where would/do you place a small fixed blade so you do not draw it under stress and try to reload your pistol with a knife? I can see me doing that and slicing and dicing my own dominant-side wrist.
Sorry if that is a dumb question.

Bill

Not a dumb question at all. I saw someone try and load their Surefire into their Glock one time. My non-professional opinion is to always keep spare mags forward of anything else, light, knife, cell phone, etc. I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

[JDM]

Not a dumb question at all. I saw someone try and load their Surefire into their Glock one time. My non-professional opinion is to always keep spare mags forward of anything else, light, knife, cell phone, etc. I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

Single mag pouch on belt. Light in back pocket of pants. I've never carried a mag in a pocket and never a light or phone or anything else but the gun and the mag(s) on the belt. I feel like this is the best way to address the possibility of the "flashlight reload."

At least in a concealed carry situation.

[phil_in_cs]

I probably am missing it, but---if carried "off-side", where would/do you place a small fixed blade so you do not draw it under stress and try to reload your pistol with a knife? I can see me doing that and slicing and dicing my own dominant-side wrist.
Sorry if that is a dumb question.

Bill

Knife is about 11 o'clock, and mag pouch is about 8 o'clock, but the basic answer to your question is the knife is pulled out downwards, and the mag comes out upwards.

See also http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?156-The-Desbiens-Reverse-Cant-%28RC%29-magazine-pouch for another alternative.

[SmokeJumper]

Ben,
I've always been a little leery of placing a lot of emphasis on weak side weapons because, frankly, most of us suck weak handed. Try putting your favorite folder in your weak side pocket and deploy it. Same goes for spraying oc, any type of impact weapon, etc.
If I was going to recommend anything, it would be a small fixed blade just forward of your mag pouch, you're much more likely to reliably deploy a fixed blade under stress.
Honestly, folders are difficult enough under perfect circumstances I don't carry one at all in uniform anymore, because it became fairly obvious that if things are bad enough that I need an edged weapon to defend myself, I'm unlikely to get it out, open and in the fight. I carry a fixed blade, weak side, under my mag pouches.

What fixed blade do you carry? Is it mounted in between the mag pouch belt loops and belt?

[Rverdi]

I carry a Ka-Bar TDI knife. It's actually threaded on to my garrison belt so it's under my duty belt. I position it so it's behind my mag pouches.

[Tamara]

I carry my Airweight J in a coat or vest pocket on my off-side that's accessible either with my right hand or (cavalry-draw style) with my left.

And although I know it slows my draw down by a couple tenths, I carry my main belt gun @ about the 4:30 position precisely because I can access it with my weak hand in a pinch in any position short of actually lying on my back...

[Michael Brown]

IF the concern is a contact distance need to deploy a weapon with the support side, my position is that the need is somewhat misplaced.

The real issue is how to obtain positional dominance in a kissing distance fight.

The need to access your tools with either hand is important but it is NO SUBSTITUTE for positional dominance. It is simply easier and more fun to purchase another knife than it is to train for strong positional dominance.

If you do some FULL CONTACT fof, you'll find that weapons (either support side or strong side) really only get deployed once you have obtained positional dominance. Until then, more often than not, trying to deploy a weapon is a recipe for disaster.

My advice would be to get thee to a ECQC or CQT class before making any more purchases.

Michael Brown

[Chuck Haggard]

IF the concern is a contact distance need to deploy a weapon with the support side, my position is that the need is somewhat misplaced.
...............................
My advice would be to get thee to a ECQC or CQT class before making any more purchases.

Michael Brown

^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I keep a J frame on my weak side while at work, but it's primarily for getting at quickly if my right hand/arm were to get shot up too badly for me to be able to draw from my duty holster.