PDA

View Full Version : Where there's smoke...



Tamara
08-27-2013, 08:55 PM
For the first night of the Midnight 3 Gun match I was running Federal bulk-pack 115gr FMJ. After the first stage on the second night of the match, I had to break into a box of WWB ball and...

Holy smoke!

That was stage two, which involved a stroll downrange on a roped off path that started out with the shotgun and finished with some cardboard pistol targets. In between were some sttel plates and a triple plate rack that were optional pistol/shotgun.

I'd been slow but accurate with the pistol and reloading the shotgun on the clock was abysmally slow, so once I broke all the clays, I ditched the gauge and went to my pistol and on the first target noticed I had a problem: My smokeless powder wasn't.

Gray steel and brown cardboard against beige desert dust, the whole thing obscured by a floating cloud of smoke lit bright white with my CTC LightGuard. Without the light the target blended perfectly with the background. With the light the smoke was like fog lit by high beams.

Here is my question, internets: Was it the switch to the WWB that produced more smoke? Or was it some trick of the weather (the air had gotten distinctly colder and clammier as we neared the dew point)?

BLR
08-27-2013, 09:06 PM
Smokeless isn't really smokeless. I haven't looked at the powder, any idea what they are using? There is a distinct difference between single, double and triple base powders in flash and smoke production.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

Haraise
08-28-2013, 12:42 AM
Smokeless isn't really smokeless. I haven't looked at the powder, any idea what they are using? There is a distinct difference between single, double and triple base powders in flash and smoke production.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

What differences do you see and why?

ffhounddog
08-28-2013, 04:15 AM
I would say build up and powder type. Not all smokeless powder in pistols have the same burn rate. If the rate of burn is slower then more smoke "might be produce" depending on the length of the barrel.

http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloading/reloadingburningratechart2011.pdf

Burn rate chart that might be interesting to review.

CCT125US
08-28-2013, 09:59 AM
IMO and to the best of my knowledge, WWB uses a propreitary blend of cat litter, charcoal and gun powder. I fired some several months back and 50 rounds of WWB equates to about 2K of my handloads as far as accumulation.

Tamara
08-28-2013, 10:15 AM
Og from Neanderpundit.com (http://neanderpundit.com/) left the following comment at my blog:

White box uses a commercial ball powder, supposedly, that is similar to 230 or 231. The cowboy action guys at my club shoot 231 (or hodgdon 38) in their (modern)revolvers/wild bunch guns just because it is smokier. I bet this combined with the atmospheric conditions made it difficult for you. One way or another, this is damned useful information in that it could make a home defense situation a disaster. Nice catch, Tam.

BLR
08-28-2013, 10:19 AM
If you are using wwb for HD, you deserve what you get.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

LHS
08-28-2013, 11:47 AM
If you are using wwb for HD, you deserve what you get.

True, but what if you're using handloads with Win231?

BLR
08-28-2013, 03:42 PM
Burn rates have a poor correlation to "smoke" generation. This is another gun myth...much like faster burning powders produce less muzzle flash. Sometimes that is true, but it definitely doesn't have a correlation to speak of....unless you don't have complete combustion before reaching the end of the barrel (like a 6" 556 or something).

Without wading too far into the weeds, the smoke from propellants is largely due to the additives, not the nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin themselves. Many powders have petroleum jelly, graphite, and carbonates added to them for various reasons. Ball propellants typically have a high petroleum content (thats why they often look shiny). Flake powders typically use more graphite powder. One major difference between reloading powder and the powder sold to ammo makers is the anti flash components (I believe it is because real ammo makers always pressure test their ammo batches, reloaders do not typically). Anti flash additives consume the excess hydrogen produced during combustion, and typically burn the "smoke" in addition. But it can somewhat significantly alter chamber pressures.

When using handloads for HD/SD, I'd give thought to the idea that most reloading powders don't have an anti-flash additive. In fact, hot 9mm reloads can produce a very satisfying muzzle flash if done right while still being well within safe pressure ranges.

Tamara
08-28-2013, 04:58 PM
If you are using wwb for HD, you deserve what you get.

I believe the broader lesson would be to see how your chosen SD loads work in the dark with a white light (assuming one uses a light.) Some people use inexpensive JHPs, such as WWB or S&B for defense. It might be a worthwhile thing to know.

BLR
08-28-2013, 05:14 PM
I believe the broader lesson would be to see how your chosen SD loads work in the dark with a white light. Some people use inexpensive JHPs, such as WWB or S&B for defense. It might be a worthwhile thing to know.

You think anyone would argue that WWB has huge QC issues? Much less smoke/flash issues. If that's all you can afford to run thru your G17, that's understandable, and you'll get no grief from me.

Tamara
08-28-2013, 05:25 PM
If that's all you can afford to run thru your G17, that's understandable, and you'll get no grief from me.

Not everyone can afford a high end gat like a G17. Poor people should be able to shoot back, too. (It's when someone gives me the "Can't afford a Glock" spiel to explain their five Taurii that I cock an eyebrow... ;) )

Haraise
08-28-2013, 05:47 PM
Not everyone can afford a high end gat like a 1911. Poor people should be able to shoot back, too. (It's when someone gives me the "Can't afford a 1911" spiel to explain their five Glocks that I cock an eyebrow... ;) )

ftfy

Tamara
08-28-2013, 06:01 PM
ftfy

That whooshing noise over your head would be the joke.

fn/form
08-28-2013, 06:05 PM
I had a similar night shoot experience with .223 handloads @ 100yd steel. Everyone else's lights were weak at 100yds. I had a JetBEAM M1X on my rail. Watch me, boys, immaboutta clean up on this one!

Dead still air, limited shooting box and after the first two shots... Michael the Archangel standing in front of me every time I hit the light.

I guess it's justification for a hybrid intensifier/thermal sight...

It does remind me of a comment from one of the 10-8 guys. Incandescent light is slightly easier to "see through" in smoke when compared to the blue-white of LED lights. Tactical fog lights, yo.

LHS
08-28-2013, 07:23 PM
I had a similar night shoot experience with .223 handloads @ 100yd steel. Everyone else's lights were weak at 100yds. I had a JetBEAM M1X on my rail. Watch me, boys, immaboutta clean up on this one!

Dead still air, limited shooting box and after the first two shots... Michael the Archangel standing in front of me every time I hit the light.

I guess it's justification for a hybrid intensifier/thermal sight...

It does remind me of a comment from one of the 10-8 guys. Incandescent light is slightly easier to "see through" in smoke when compared to the blue-white of LED lights. Tactical fog lights, yo.

Had a similar experience at a Hackathorn pistol/carbine class a few years back. There was a Bureau guy there, shooting his duty ammo (.45 Golden Saber). Ken asked him to touch one off after dark, and used the resulting fireball as a teaching point. The point was, "Yeah, this stuff supposedly has great terminal ballistics, but it sucks to shoot it at night. Guess when most SD gun fights happen?"

BLR
08-28-2013, 07:26 PM
Had a similar experience at a Hackathorn pistol/carbine class a few years back. There was a Bureau guy there, shooting his duty ammo (.45 Golden Saber). Ken asked him to touch one off after dark, and used the resulting fireball as a teaching point. The point was, "Yeah, this stuff supposedly has great terminal ballistics, but it sucks to shoot it at night. Guess when most SD gun fights happen?"

There is absolutely no reason to have muzzle flash with new ammo. That is disappointing in the extreme.

Tamara
08-28-2013, 10:29 PM
There is absolutely no reason to have muzzle flash with new ammo. That is disappointing in the extreme.

Shootin' Buddy reported the exact same story re: Hackathorn class & Remington GS ammo.

That's what I carried in 1911s (since my main CCW 1911 was a Pro) but now that I think about it, I never tested it myself anyplace darker than an indoor range with most of the lights out.

LHS
08-28-2013, 11:01 PM
Shootin' Buddy reported the exact same story re: Hackathorn class & Remington GS ammo.

That's what I carried in 1911s (since my main CCW 1911 was a Pro) but now that I think about it, I never tested it myself anyplace darker than an indoor range with most of the lights out.

The old .45 200gr +p Cor-Bon JHPs were like that too. I had a bunch that I used as IDPA ammo for a while, because for some odd reason my CQB just loved the things. Then I shot a night stage at the AZ state match. Lit up the whole bay.

fn/form
08-28-2013, 11:28 PM
There is absolutely no reason to have muzzle flash with new ammo. That is disappointing in the extreme.

How "old" is Golden Saber? When I got into shooting it was HydraShok and GS for the gung ho, so I'm not sure when they were introduced.

I'm looking at some "night" firing fun photos I took of my brothers about 8yrs ago. The G23 was loaded with 165gr GS, .357 was HS if I remember correctly. All the others were hunting loads.


http://imageshack.us/a/img832/6928/acfj.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img20/8409/arue.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img28/4753/k4ic.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img4/9554/klwn.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img707/2293/nfm1.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img560/9298/ssfd.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img839/9103/wqps.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img153/3197/0bbi.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img16/5097/g2a4.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img547/1283/n5w8.jpg

Chuck Haggard
08-28-2013, 11:31 PM
I was shooting some Remington 115gr JHP during an IDPA match at an indoor range last year, with the lower light in that range I noted a weird blue flash, enough so that it would mess with my eyes on follow-up shots when transitioning targets.


Ref WWB; I get it, however I know a few people who bought the JHPs and a bunch of the ball ammo and use those loads for carry and practice due to same recoil, POI vs POA, etc. I'd rather see folks do that then buy a HighPoint and a box of "Hydroshocks" and call it good.

ffhounddog
08-29-2013, 04:19 AM
Bill,

Thank you for the lesson. I will amend my housing box with the information. I know some powders that Ramshot when I reload for rifle the TAC has less "flash" than some commercial .223 but like always there are many factors that influence the muzzle flash.

ffh

Tamara
08-29-2013, 05:28 AM
I was shooting some Remington 115gr JHP during an IDPA match at an indoor range last year, with the lower light in that range I noted a weird blue flash, enough so that it would mess with my eyes on follow-up shots when transitioning targets.

Oh, I am fairly sure there's nothing to suppress flash in plain green box Remington JHPs. I remember back '01 or so we were shooting some of the high velocity 110gr .357 JHPs through Marko's 2.5" 686 and commenting that the actinic white muzzle flash was noticeably lighting the wall two lanes over on the indoor range.

BLR
08-29-2013, 06:24 AM
Bill,

Thank you for the lesson. I will amend my housing box with the information. I know some powders that Ramshot when I reload for rifle the TAC has less "flash" than some commercial .223 but like always there are many factors that influence the muzzle flash.

ffh

Flash is caused by hydrogen gas production, which burns when it hits the air causing the flash. And sometimes, quite a bit of blast. There is a wide range of flash suppressants that are added to propellants. Most are just simple potassium salts.

I can't remember is those contribute to smoke or not. I do know many of the stabilizers do.

Chuck Haggard
08-29-2013, 08:41 AM
Oh, I am fairly sure there's nothing to suppress flash in plain green box Remington JHPs. I remember back '01 or so we were shooting some of the high velocity 110gr .357 JHPs through Marko's 2.5" 686 and commenting that the actinic white muzzle flash was noticeably lighting the wall two lanes over on the indoor range.

No, I didn't expect there was, I have just never seen blue muzzle flash before. The brightness and the color were a problem, kind of like those aftermarket blueish tinted headlights that some people buy are extra blinding when they are coming at you.

At one point in my life I carried WWB 110gr .357mags because they shot really accurately in my 640 (carried as a BUG), were low recoil, and they had the most impressive muzzle flash I had ever seen from a service caliber handgun.

DB and I have talked about the usefulness of a huge muzzle flash/blast from a defensive handgun in certain circumstances.