Training For Reality: Why Carry a Rifle?

[GardoneVT]

This is a topic that's been bothering me since I read about Fernando Aguierre's experiences in post-economic collapse Argentina. His book provides a great picture of what happens to a first world nation when it slides into disorder and chaos-many of the SHTF situations people in America prepare for actually happened there.

One of the matters he discusses is the use of the rifle. While the typical survivalist considers an openly worn long arm and accessories "necessary", Aguierre states that a rifle is useful in the context of home defense against multiple bad guys , period. Contrary to the "Mad Max" concept, when the S hit the fan in Argentina it didn't totally wipe out law and order. When the President of Argentina fled the country due to currency problems and riots were all about, one still couldn't just walk out the door with an AR15 . Even when society is falling apart, the kids still have to get to school and you need to run your daily errands.

When I evaluate the idea of a long arm in post collapse society, I come to another reason which justifies concealed carry of a handgun over a rifle. When one is walking about, naturally such a person isn't cognizant of borders or property lines anymore-especially in rural areas. Walking around with an openly worn plate carrier and a shouldered SCAR17s would trigger someone observing their property line to shoot first and ask questions later. Why risk personal contact with an openly armed stranger when you can just pre-emptively shoot them , take their stuff, and bury the corpse with no risk of loss to you and yours?

A man walking about with a concealed handgun might not be able to hit a target "way out past Fort Mudge" , but inside of 70 yards he's still deadly assuming good proficiency with the pistol in question-and he won't necessarily be shot on sight by remnants of police or trigger happy people watching their property lines.

What say you all on this topic? Am I off my rocker to consider this?

[JHC]

This is a topic that's been bothering me since I read about Fernando Aguierre's experiences in post-economic collapse Argentina. His book provides a great picture of what happens to a first world nation when it slides into disorder and chaos-many of the SHTF situations people in America prepare for actually happened there.

One of the matters he discusses is the use of the rifle. While the typical survivalist considers an openly worn long arm and accessories "necessary", Aguierre states that a rifle is useful in the context of home defense against multiple bad guys , period. Contrary to the "Mad Max" concept, when the S hit the fan in Argentina it didn't totally wipe out law and order. When the President of Argentina fled the country due to currency problems and riots were all about, one still couldn't just walk out the door with an AR15 . Even when society is falling apart, the kids still have to get to school and you need to run your daily errands.

When I evaluate the idea of a long arm in post collapse society, I come to another reason which justifies concealed carry of a handgun over a rifle. When one is walking about, naturally such a person isn't cognizant of borders or property lines anymore-especially in rural areas. Walking around with an openly worn plate carrier and a shouldered SCAR17s would trigger someone observing their property line to shoot first and ask questions later. Why risk personal contact with an openly armed stranger when you can just pre-emptively shoot them , take their stuff, and bury the corpse with no risk of loss to you and yours?

A man walking about with a concealed handgun might not be able to hit a target "way out past Fort Mudge" , but inside of 70 yards he's still deadly assuming good proficiency with the pistol in question-and he won't necessarily be shot on sight by remnants of police or trigger happy people watching their property lines.

What say you all on this topic? Am I off my rocker to consider this?

I think you are on pretty solid ground. [The less than all out war levels of breakdown in developed countries] That article you reference is a very good read.

Interesting his emphasis on driving a 4x4, urban vs remote rural vs small community too.

[TGS]

This is a topic that's been bothering me since I read about Fernando Aguierre's experiences in post-economic collapse Argentina. His book provides a great picture of what happens to a first world nation when it slides into disorder and chaos-many of the SHTF situations people in America prepare for actually happened there.

One of the matters he discusses is the use of the rifle. While the typical survivalist considers an openly worn long arm and accessories "necessary", Aguierre states that a rifle is useful in the context of home defense against multiple bad guys , period. Contrary to the "Mad Max" concept, when the S hit the fan in Argentina it didn't totally wipe out law and order. When the President of Argentina fled the country due to currency problems and riots were all about, one still couldn't just walk out the door with an AR15 . Even when society is falling apart, the kids still have to get to school and you need to run your daily errands.

When I evaluate the idea of a long arm in post collapse society, I come to another reason which justifies concealed carry of a handgun over a rifle. When one is walking about, naturally such a person isn't cognizant of borders or property lines anymore-especially in rural areas. Walking around with an openly worn plate carrier and a shouldered SCAR17s would trigger someone observing their property line to shoot first and ask questions later. Why risk personal contact with an openly armed stranger when you can just pre-emptively shoot them , take their stuff, and bury the corpse with no risk of loss to you and yours?

A man walking about with a concealed handgun might not be able to hit a target "way out past Fort Mudge" , but inside of 70 yards he's still deadly assuming good proficiency with the pistol in question-and he won't necessarily be shot on sight by remnants of police or trigger happy people watching their property lines.

What say you all on this topic? Am I off my rocker to consider this?

Google images for "LA Riots Korean".

[Tamara]

There is a carbine loaded to "cruiser ready" in my house (my roommate has one, too, but she doesn't store the mag in the gun. Her gun, her choice.)

The envelope for which it would be useful, though, is a very narrow one: Somebod(ies) trying to force entry into the house, or civil unrest in the neighborhood (and the latter is not just paranoid rantings; there have been burning cop cars in the street within ten blocks of where I'm sitting right now within the last twenty years.)

Most problems with a ballistic solution would need solving with the gat on my hip.

[Chuck Haggard]

Google images for "LA Riots Korean".

That speaks right towards the exact same idea IMHO. Those folks were in static defense of their own property, in a aberrant and short lived scenario. Outside of those types of situations handguns are far more appropriate.

[Suvorov]

I tend to agree with you that the most likely scenario is a more limited collapse of society rather than Mad Max. I also have read Fernando's blog and view his and Selko (from the former FRY) to be a far better example of SHTF reality than a lot of what Rawles writes about.

The rifle will have its place, but its range of use will depend on where you are. If you are living in rural areas like Wyoming, Colorado, or even Northern California, where the sight of a rifle is not that rare and ranchers carry them for their daily tasks, then rifles will probably be a primary arm. Ranges are further, encounters with unknown rarer, and the local remaining law enforcement will probably be a lot more sympathetic. Heck, growing up in Wyoming, the rifle was a common sight in the back of pickup trucks every day including the HS parking lot where a lot of my fellow students would leave school to go work their ranch. They carried a rifle every day. Post (insert your favorite SHTF fantasy here), the practice would probably increase.

In the urban/suburban setting, then I'll agree that the rifle's role will be a lot more reduced. Home defense if that is the tool (and you are permitted to have it) you choose or basic area/neighborhood denial during riots such as was seen during the LA riots and post Katrina and Ike. Strolling down to the local food distribution center or farmer market with the AR slung to the back will most likely get you noticed in a bad way, just like it will in many places today.

All that said, when the time comes that you need that rifle, then you REALLY NEED that rifle! So a realistic approach to training with the rifle should be part of everyone who chooses to own a rifle's training plan. Also, if times become hard like they did back in the 1930s, then hunting may very well become a much more common way for people to fill their pantries. A rifle of suitable caliber would be a valuable item to have as would be the skill to use it.

[Suvorov]

Google images for "LA Riots Korean".

Also consider the defenses that farmers in Rhodesia had to put up against goons that roved the land in packs looking for reparations (and either allowed to operate with impunity or outright support by Mugabe's government).

[Drang]

THE FARMER AT WAR (http://www.rhodesia.nl/farmeratwar.html)
Lessons from Wartime Bosnia-Herzgovina (http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/09/lessons_from_wartime_bosnia-he.html)
Selco – One Year in Hell / Online Course | SHTF School Community (http://shtfschool.com/community/selco-one-year-in-hell/)
Listening to HURRICANE KATRINA (http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/index.html)

[vaglocker]

Can't hurt to have a properly secured rifle in your vehicle either.

[Tirofijo2001]

I agree that there is too much emphasis on the carbine in the civilian self defense world. It should be trained, but at a much lower priority than many other things.

(However, this site doesn't seem to be as preoccupied with the carbine as other places are. It's named pistol-forum, after all.)

Kyle Defoor has a few blog posts on training priorities. First you look at what skills you are most likely to need, then you consider how weak or strong you are in those skills.

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/05/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good.html (Part 1)

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/06/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good.html (Part 2)

He lists fitness as his number one priority, because it's so important in a hand to hand fight (which is his mostly likely SD scenario). I'd say fitness should be number one for most of us since we are more likely to die of a heart attack in the next five years than live through a Mad Max-style post-apocalypse.

[Failure2Stop]

The environment you live in will determine everything. Know how to use the tools you have. Do not assume that your conditions will mirror anyone else's. There is no such thing as an "average collapse of society". All past lessons serve to educate and guide, none are all-inclusive. There are a ton of things that one needs to be proficient in for long term survival, and any hole in your skillset or material preparation can put you behind the curve.


Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[KevinB]

I
He lists fitness as his number one priority, because it's so important in a hand to hand fight (which is his mostly likely SD scenario). I'd say fitness should be number one for most of us since we are more likely to die of a heart attack in the next five years than live through a Mad Max-style post-apocalypse.

While I do think that most ignore fitness as part of the training environment - I will disagree with Kyle in the fact that fitness is number 1 do to a HTH fight.
The will to kill and the skills to do it quick are the #1 requirement in any fight. A fat out of shape guy can kill you just as easily as someone who is in good physical shape - in some cases easier due to increase body mass. I am a MF'ing dirty fighter - I will bite, eye gouge, ear rip, junk punch, I'll tear off a scrotum if I need to - then I'm probably going to stab or shoot your repeatedly as soon as I have stunned/disabled you enough I can bring those to a fight. This was learned over 20 years ago, when an off-duty incident went badly overseas. However in the 20 years 2 months and a few days since that night, I have still killed only that 1 person in a hand to hand incident (and 0 with a pistol).

As far as the relative Societal Unrest issues go, Is a rifle important? -- you bet, I firmly believe that EVERY American should own an AR style weapon and be able to use it to engage human targets out to at least 300m, but your particular atmospherics will make it more or less relevant.
Me I like to kill folks as far away from me as I can, why, because in close even clowns are dangerous -- it take a lot less skill to hit someone with a rifle inside 50m than it does at 500m, or 1100m. I live in rural Virginia - West enough that walking my property line with a rifle is not an issue (so far)- but also that a 300m shot to my rear fence-line is a possibility - as well as rifles kill folks so much more efficiently either in close or at range than a pistol.

But I stated in my OP on Training for Reality -- what is your largest percentage likelihood for use of force issue, and where do you think the most bang for your buck in a training regime comes from? For me the pistol trumps the rifle, and while I still do rifle training, the majority of my efforts are working on CCW applications for the pistol.


Other than occasional daydreams I don't expect the TEOTWAKI aspect to happen in the USA - at least where I live, some of the folks in cities - well your up a creek...

[walkin' trails]

I was sent up to LA during the riots and parltrolled South Central. I was impressed enough with the devistation to the business community that I bought my first AR15 when I got home. I was living near the border with Mexico, and there was enough potential for natural disaster (earthquake and flooding) to make me realize that law enforcement and border security would be degraded by probably two thirds in the first 24-48 hours or more. Opportunists on both sides of the border sous take to looting and other criminal activity on the US side rather than stay home and clean up.

I also agree that every household occupied my responsible people should have at least one AR, or some other type of rifle with an ample supply of ammo at hand. Not just for the ling range shots, but for close quarters and multiple aggressors.

Even though this is a pistol training website, who can argue that having an AR with a standard capacity magazine nearby would not be comforting?

Jeff Cooper's "The Art of the Rifle" should be required reading for anyone who owns a gun. It isn't going to offer pointers to make you shoot better, but it's going to explain to you why you should strive to be proficient with a rifle.

[Suvorov]

Jeff Cooper's "The Art of the Rifle" should be required reading for anyone who owns a gun. It isn't going to offer pointers to make you shoot better, but it's going to explain to you why you should strive to be proficient with a rifle.

Well said. I forgot about "The Art of the Rifle." It sits on my book shelf next to "A Book of Five Rings." I consider to be companions to one another separated by 500 years. Cooper lays it out, that it is every patriotic American's duty to be proficient with a rifle.

[David Armstrong]

Also consider the defenses that farmers in Rhodesia had to put up against goons that roved the land in packs looking for reparations (and either allowed to operate with impunity or outright support by Mugabe's government).
When it was Rhodesia we didn't have that crap. That nonsense is under the Zimbabwe banner. When it was Rhodesia farm defenses were generally pretty good and attacks were quickly and strongly responded to by the government.

[Suvorov]

When it was Rhodesia we didn't have that crap. That nonsense is under the Zimbabwe banner. When it was Rhodesia farm defenses were generally pretty good and attacks were quickly and strongly responded to by the government.

OK, point taken. I should have stated Former Rhodesia.

[Dropkick]

While I do think that most ignore fitness as part of the training environment - I will disagree with Kyle in the fact that fitness is number 1 do to a HTH fight.
The will to kill and the skills to do it quick are the #1 requirement in any fight. A fat out of shape guy can kill you just as easily as someone who is in good physical shape - in some cases easier due to increase body mass.

Your personal experiences aside, I'd put my money on the "fit & in shape" guy to win an unarmed fight over the "fat & out of shape" guy, any day of the week, regardless of willingness and skill.

But I don't even know how or why this came up in a thread about Rifles... :confused:

[ST911]

The mental skill set is critical. For everything else, the fight is what it is. It will require what it does. To my left is a densely packed subdivision and school. To my right, open fields that stretch for miles line of sight. The direction I turn or the fight emerges from will make many of my decisions for me.

Be well-rounded in resources and the skill sets required to bring them to bear.

[KevinB]

Be well-rounded in resources and the skill sets required to bring them to bear.

Or be the worlds fastest runner...



Dropkick - I simply mentioned it as a disagreement with what was posted above. I respect KD, but I believe the WILL to WIN (or NOT DIE BADLY) is the key aspect. Sadly I no longer have a job that pays me to run, go the gym, swim etc, and with two little children in the home at 43 years old, this guy does not have the time to stay in active shape. I watch what I eat and practice where and when I can, but 2+hours of PT are an impossibility for me - and since I carry a gun, any physical altercation I get in become a fight with a gun (and I try to avoid those), and in a fight with a gun odds are someone is not going home.

[LittleLebowski]

When it was Rhodesia we didn't have that crap. That nonsense is under the Zimbabwe banner. When it was Rhodesia farm defenses were generally pretty good and attacks were quickly and strongly responded to by the government.

I'd love to hear more on this in a separate thread.

[RBid]

Google images for "LA Riots Korean".

As has been said in this thread, they were defending a static location.

By most definitions short of Mad Max, SHTF has happened many times in modern history. Venezuela, Bosnia, Katrina, the LA Riots, Turkey, Egypt, and countless localized events tied to natural disaster provide many examples. They show us that concealed handguns will remain the best "on the go" option unless it becomes clear that there will be no consequences for carrying a long gun. That would require a sense that a power or service vacuum was at least long term, if not permanent. Power and service vacuums tend to be very short lived.

[Dropkick]

Dropkick - I simply mentioned it as a disagreement with what was posted above. I respect KD, but I believe the WILL to WIN (or NOT DIE BADLY) is the key aspect. ... and in a fight with a gun odds are someone is not going home.

Okaaay... So, if we move the goal posts from "unarmed fight" to "fight involving a firearm" I'd still bet on the fit guy over the fat guy. Because in a struggle over a gun, the fit guy will still have fight in him when the fat guy starts wheezing and is only left with his "Will to Win" but nothing left to back it up with. To simplify it: who can outlast who physically?

[ST911]

I'd love to hear more on this in a separate thread.

Check out John Farnam's quips for a bunch of good stuff for that AO.

[KevinB]

Okaaay... So, if we move the goal posts from "unarmed fight" to "fight involving a firearm" I'd still bet on the fit guy over the fat guy. Because in a struggle over a gun, the fit guy will still have fight in him when the fat guy starts wheezing and is only left with his "Will to Win" but nothing left to back it up with. To simplify it: who can outlast who physically?

The guy who lands a killing blow first.

Your missing my point - the key to winning is that the only fair fight is the fight you win. Fight your heart out, as your life probably does depend on it.
I'm not going 12 rounds in a boxing match - the goal is to mobilize the opponent as fast as you can, as the quicker you stop a fight, the less likely you will suffer an significant injury.

Very few folks train to kill, injury or immobilize quickly in a HTH struggle

[Kimura]

While I do think that most ignore fitness as part of the training environment - I will disagree with Kyle in the fact that fitness is number 1 do to a HTH fight.
The will to kill and the skills to do it quick are the #1 requirement in any fight.
KD has a rather well rounded skill set, so when he says fitness, he means that's for him personally. He's not saying that's the most important thing for everyone, but just for him personally or at least when he wrote that entry it was. And he's trying to get people to think and evaluate their own situations and to adjust their regimen or build their regimen accordingly. Most people don't have his skill set or experience. He's not trying to say they do. Seems like he's trying to get them to evaluate their own needs realistically and then work it from there. Will most people do that? My guess is no, but if you're average Joe Citizen and training your carbine skills is what you want to do, it's better than what most people do, which is nothing.

[tremiles]

If it's too dangerous FOR ME to leave the house without a rifle, it's too dangerous to leave the house. KHTF Mad Max fantasies aside, my rifle training has been mostly for personal enjoyment, gun nerdiness. I've learned skills that would be useful for defending me and mine, and I take them seriously. But mostly because I can and not because I have to.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[smells like feet]

With the exception of guys who carry a rifle for a living and are training on the taxpayers dime...

If you are spending more time/money on carbine courses than you are at the local MMA gym, you are NOT training for reality.

[GJM]

With the exception of guys who carry a rifle for a living and are training on the taxpayers dime...

If you are spending more time/money on carbine courses than you are at the local MMA gym, you are NOT training for reality.

Except,

1) I thought most everyone had access to a carbine or shotgun, with a mounted light, at home -- making the long gun more than a theoretical tool for home defense.

and,

2) If you believe the Rangemaster data base, there isn't much grappling, or physical contact at all going on, at least in western TN.

[Chuck Haggard]

Except,

1) I thought most everyone had access to a carbine or shotgun, with a mounted light, at home -- making the long gun more than a theoretical tool for home defense.

and,

2) If you believe the Rangemaster data base, there isn't much grappling, or physical contact at all going on, at least in western TN.

But then then folks are far more likely to need their gun out and about than at home, if we look at the data Tom gives us.

Home defense guns are were (are maybe...) used so much more than carry guns in the past because no one was carrying a gun outside of the home. Of the 60+ cases Tom speaks of in his class very few are at homes, and those that are happen outside in the yard where one wouldn't have access to the rifle anyway.

[Dr. No]

A man walking about with a concealed handgun might not be able to hit a target "way out past Fort Mudge" , but inside of 70 yards he's still deadly assuming good proficiency with the pistol in question-and he won't necessarily be shot on sight by remnants of police or trigger happy people watching their property lines.

What say you all on this topic? Am I off my rocker to consider this?

How often do you shoot past 25 yards? How accurate are your hits at 75 yards?

Terminal ballistics are the #1 reason to carry a rifle.

[Dropkick]

The guy who lands a killing blow first.

Your missing my point - the key to winning is that the only fair fight is the fight you win. Fight your heart out, as your life probably does depend on it.
I'm not going 12 rounds in a boxing match - the goal is to mobilize the opponent as fast as you can, as the quicker you stop a fight, the less likely you will suffer an significant injury.

Very few folks train to kill, injury or immobilize quickly in a HTH struggle

I still don't see how the average couch-potato is going to land a "killing blow" against the average gym-rat. The reality of it is the gym-rat will be able to stay in the fight longer, hit harder, move faster, take more punishment, because they're doing that all the time in their strength and conditioning work outs. So, the odds of the couch-potato being able to pull off some dim-mak death punch while they're getting their head beat in are pretty slim.

Just because we're all adults and out of school, doesn't change the fact that jocks will still pick on fatties and nerds in later life. And why is that? Because physical ability > mental intent

[GardoneVT]

How often do you shoot past 25 yards? How accurate are your hits at 75 yards?

Terminal ballistics are the #1 reason to carry a rifle.

While I do not have consistent access to a range bigger then 25 yards (:mad:) , hickock45 does. He routinely shoots gongs at 200 yards with compact sized pistols.

Then we have the after action evaluation of Air Force SP Andy Brown, who used a GI Issue M9 loaded with 9mm NATO ball to drop a spree killer at a confirmed 71 yard distance. The record shows that pistols are quite deadly at what we would normally consider "rifle range" with the appropriate skill. While the utility of a long arm isn't questioned for certain circumstances like home defense or defense of a static building , most of us-even in a societal collapse- will not have access to the long arm when the flag flies.


An AR15 at home does one little good when the emergency is on Main Street.Even one carried in the trunk is no guarantee of being able to use it- multiple police shootings have involved cops who had long arms, but started and ended the fight with their pistol for lack of time to access the long arm under fire.

[RBid]

1) I thought most everyone had access to a carbine or shotgun, with a mounted light, at home -- making the long gun more than a theoretical tool for home defense.

This opens/reopens another side conversation, about where a person is in the home when a break in occurs. Personally, I'm not big on the idea of staging firearms around the home, and I tend to think that "primary HD weapon" is just a label when somebody kicks in your door and that "primary HD weapon" is upstairs in a safe or closet.

I think it's a general truth that long guns are a tool that you go get when you have at least a little advance knowledge of an appropriate scenario. The only exception seems to be when you're in a room with one when a break in occurs.

[KevinB]

I still don't see how the average couch-potato is going to land a "killing blow" against the average gym-rat. The reality of it is the gym-rat will be able to stay in the fight longer, hit harder, move faster, take more punishment, because they're doing that all the time in their strength and conditioning work outs. So, the odds of the couch-potato being able to pull off some dim-mak death punch while they're getting their head beat in are pretty slim.

Just because we're all adults and out of school, doesn't change the fact that jocks will still pick on fatties and nerds in later life. And why is that? Because physical ability > mental intent

All else being equal - yes someone in better condition will beat someone of lesser conditioning.

My point is IF you have X many hours a week for personal training you need to break that up into a block that suits your needs real or perceived. CrossFit Bob may be in great shape - but I can guarantee if he runs into an out of shape hard as nails dude - CrossFit Bob is most likely going to get broken or dead. Fitness in of itself is not an enabler, fitness teamed with channeling your inner killer and training and practice in dealing with situations is.

Distance in encounters is your friend -- and if you get in close and someone goes hands on with you, you better know how to be the dirtiest nastiest MoFO on the block and aiming to immobilize your opponent as fast as you can with the minimum of damage to you and yours.

[Sadmin]

Word. I see where both of you are coming from and agree with both of you. I have some unfortunate "metro" friends who are ripped to hell and spend hours in the gym just to pull tail; they are also the biggest pussies I know when it comes to anything that can make you dirty / get you injured / makes a loud noise. One of my ex-gf's dad was a lifetime roofer, his finger diameter matched a .5 steel pipe. Ive seen him with my own eyes fold a beer bottle cap in half..twice. The dude got blazed every day and probably couldnt run 400m but im pretty sure he could punch a hole in my buddies real quick.

[Tirofijo2001]

All else being equal - yes someone in better condition will beat someone of lesser conditioning.

My point is IF you have X many hours a week for personal training you need to break that up into a block that suits your needs real or perceived. CrossFit Bob may be in great shape - but I can guarantee if he runs into an out of shape hard as nails dude - CrossFit Bob is most likely going to get broken or dead. Fitness in of itself is not an enabler, fitness teamed with channeling your inner killer and training and practice in dealing with situations is.

Distance in encounters is your friend -- and if you get in close and someone goes hands on with you, you better know how to be the dirtiest nastiest MoFO on the block and aiming to immobilize your opponent as fast as you can with the minimum of damage to you and yours.

I'm assuming in your mind that you see yourself as the "out of shape hard as nails" dude.

Let's assume you do channel your inner killer. Are you assuming that your adversary doesn't also have a will to win? Maybe he's in shape and hard as nails mentally. Then what are you going to do?

Not trying to be a dick, but this sounds a lot like a plan based on "rising to the occasion." Find the time. Get in shape. Don't make excuses.

[LittleLebowski]

I used to be one of those "find the time" guys. After becoming a parent, I understand folks that can't make time. Especially folks that work full time and travel for work. It's hard enough for me to find the time and I don't travel.

[fn/form]

This is a topic that's been bothering me since I read about Fernando Aguierre's experiences in post-economic collapse Argentina...

FerFAL makes a very good case for the usefulness of a high cap semi-auto for urban, non-law enforcement use when there is a reason to stay in the city. It really is no different than every day concealed carry: enough public order make urban travel worthwhile, but not 100% security.

For just about every other scenario, including the ones already mentioned, I do not see an advantage to a handgun-primary plan. Nor do some of the mentioned scenarios play out in reason (we can discuss that if desired). In fact, there are many advantages to a long gun in view. FerFAL himself mentions an incident where the appearance of his FAL obviously prevented a robbery or worse. He had driven into the countryside to shoot for practice or pleasure.

[RBid]

I used to be one of those "find the time" guys. After becoming a parent, I understand folks that can't make time. Especially folks that work full time and travel for work. It's hard enough for me to find the time and I don't travel.

30 minutes per day and a respectable diet are pretty easy. This is from a father of 3 with a full time job.

I have a cheap pull up bar that can hang in a doorway. I do tri-sets of pull ups, push ups, and to-the-floor bodyweight squats, with 2 minute recovery times between sets. throw in some alternating-reach planks at the end. It's not what I did as a trainer 13 years ago, but my core stays strong, I burn some calories, and I'm maintaining my ability to easily perform basic physical tasks. At 36, I'm 6'2", 185, and fit.

For added productivity, I fire up a DVD or YouTube videos that don't require images to have value, and listen to them while doing my work.

[Failure2Stop]

I'm assuming in your mind that you see yourself as the "out of shape hard as nails" dude.

Let's assume you do channel your inner killer. Are you assuming that your adversary doesn't also have a will to win? Maybe he's in shape and hard as nails mentally. Then what are you going to do?


Shoot him.

[LittleLebowski]

30 minutes per day and a respectable diet are pretty easy. This is from a father of 3 with a full time job.

I have a cheap pull up bar that can hang in a doorway. I do tri-sets of pull ups, push ups, and to-the-floor bodyweight squats, with 2 minute recovery times between sets. throw in some alternating-reach planks at the end. It's not what I did as a trainer 13 years ago, but my core stays strong, I burn some calories, and I'm maintaining my ability to easily perform basic physical tasks. At 36, I'm 6'2", 185, and fit.

For added productivity, I fire up a DVD or YouTube videos that don't require images to have value, and listen to them while doing my work.

I have a pull up bar at my work along with a kettlebell and swim in Master's swimming. However, I'm not going to throw stones at the working father who travels for work and uses his free time to see his family or go shooting. Everyone's situation is different.

[RBid]

I have a pull up bar at my work along with a kettlebell and swim in Master's swimming. However, I'm not going to throw stones at the working father who travels for work and uses his free time to see his family or go shooting. Everyone's situation is different.

I respect that, but I also appreciate that some folks may benefit from a little kick in the pants to do something that might improve their quality of life. If 1/30 readers actually gets off the couch to put in some work, that's a win. None of the other 29/30 suffer any, so everybody gets to sleep soundly tonight.

[nycnoob]

Thought about the pro of rifles:


Rifles are easier to shoot and one retains rifle instruction longer. It might be a better weapon to hand of to the unskilled or less skilled partner.

When first learning pistol that my flinch was so bad that I would occasionally miss the paper. I thought that if I was in an actual lethal force situation it might be possible to get me to miss, just by charging at me and getting me to flinch badly. My early rifle shooting was not nearly so atrocious, it was much easier to get accurate hit with a rifle and much easier to not get riled up to jerk the weapon.

I have given much thought to how practical a 22lr rifle might be for home defense for someone who does not wish to practice. It seem to have much to commend it.

[BJJ]

Regarding fitness... Tonight my workout was 15 burpees followed by a 100 yard carry of a duffel bag filled with 55 lbs of rubber mulch. I did that a total of 5 times and it took less than 15 minutes. I believe that a workout like that is good preparation for a crisis. As I get older and busier, I find that shorter, more intense workouts get the job done without taking up too much time. For example if I run for 20 minutes with a 1:2 ratio of very hard to moderate running and then follow that up with a 20 minute circuit of dips, pullups and deadlifts then I have gotten a pretty darn thorough workout.

I am not criticizing anyone. I would just like to point that you don't have to work out for hours to maintain perfectly adequate fitness. Rosstraining.com is an awesome resource for efficient workouts that don't require a lot of equipment. The guy who runs that site is a total beast and I think he only works out 1 hour per day.

[GJM]

Why carry a rifle? Because in many of the greatest parts of the world, man is not at the top of the food chain.

[Tamara]

(Wh)o can outlast who physically?

First one to come up with a mouthful of bloody windpipe.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thought about the pro of rifles:

I have given much thought to how practical a 22lr rifle might be for home defense for someone who does not wish to practice. It seem to have much to commend it.

I have helped set up several people with Ruger 10-22s with Ruger 25 round mags, sometimes with a light mounted on the gun. Especially for some of the rural folks I know that aren't interested in CCW this is a good set up for both bad guys and varmints. Our problem varmints being rather smaller than those GJM might run in to.

[Kevin B.]

On fitness...Fitness is a part of fighting. It is not the only part, but it an important one. Fitness not only contributes to the liklihood you will prevail, but also your ability to survive/recover if you are injured.

You can achieve a very high level of fitness with a very small daily commitment. The hard part is making the effort.


I have helped set up several people with Ruger 10-22s with Ruger 25 round mags, sometimes with a light mounted on the gun. Especially for some of the rural folks I know that aren't interested in CCW this is a good set up for both bad guys and varmints. Our problem varmints being rather smaller than those GJM might run in to.

My wife is currently using a S&W MP 15-22 w/ a Surefire G2 for her home defense needs.

[Dagga Boy]

On fitness...Fitness is a part of fighting. It is not the only part, but it an important one. Fitness not only contributes to the liklihood you will prevail, but also your ability to survive/recover if you are injured.

You can achieve a very high level of fitness with a very small daily commitment. The hard part is making the effort.



My wife is currently using a S&W MP 15-22 w/ a Surefire G2 for her home defense needs.


A couple of great points here. First, I am also a fan of the 15-22 or the like for our non-dedicated/or smaller family members. I know that if you are inside of 50 yards and my 11 year old gets the red dot on you, it is all bad. She can ding a 50 yard plate at a scary rate.

You also hit a huge point on injuries. I have been in a ton of fights. Injuries are normal, and actually expected. Age and previous injuries make recovery harder and harder as time goes on. I know a ton of smaller, healthy folks who have so many injury issues that if you blew on them they would break. Pat Rogers is not going to get in a fist fight with anyone these days for any reason. Firearms skill become a HUGE asset when age and injury start stacking up. I am on a full medical disability. I can easily get a handicapped plate (but simply refuse because it would be an admission of life sucking). I don't care how healthy I get with a strict diet and exercise, I am still very broken on the inside and will be going to guns, or knives (or both) right out of the gate. Firearms also prevent injuries that you can't predict. In the case of rifles, they allow for distance to not even have the chance to get close. For me the rifle is a breakdown of order option as opposed to a initial go to. As much as my rational side finds it an excellent option for home defense....I do worry about public/police perception. Once society breaks down that nobody is coming in minutes if I call 9-11 for an in progress felony, all bets are off and the entire arsenal of democracy is in play.

[Chuck Haggard]

My M&P 15-22 isn't as reliable as all of the 10-22s that I have shot over the years, more expensive, and less available, hence why my go-to for this option has been the Ruger.

Even being a cop I have some of the same worries as DB now that I am not a SWAT guy. My go-to long gun is currently a Mossberg 500 with an 18" turkey barrel. I'm pretty sure I am covered if I need to blast home invaders and I have time to get the long gun deployed. If those bad guys are gang-bangers and they have pissed off homies then my AR is still in the locker and not in evidence. Just my train of thought.

My wife really likes shooting .22 rifles now, so I may set up a 10-22 for this job myself.

[GJM]

My M&P 15-22 isn't as reliable as all of the 10-22s that I have shot over the years, more expensive, and less available, hence why my go-to for this option has been the Ruger.

While the ammo is tough to find now, have you tried CCI AR Tactical .22 ammo? Bill Rogers tells me their M&P .22 pistols go an entire beginners class (2000-3000 rounds) typically without a single stoppage using this ammo, and since I believe it was designed for an AR, it might be worth trying. It made everything I used it in (Sig 226 conversion, M&P pistol) run great -- until I ran out of it.

[Chuck Haggard]

I got to try exactly one brick of that ammo before the OBAMA IS GOING TO TAKE YOUR AMMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thing hit.

My M&P is a very early gun, and that may be part of the issue. I have thought about sending it back to S&W for a look-see but haven't done so yet since it has been just a range training tool.

[Kevin B.]

While the ammo is tough to find now, have you tried CCI AR Tactical .22 ammo?

That is what I run in mine.

[Chuck Haggard]

That is what I run in mine.

I haven't seen any of it since the panic hit. Just saw my first Mini-Mags on the shelf a few days ago, and that was one box per customer limit

[Chuck Whitlock]

My go-to long gun is currently a Mossberg 500 with an 18" turkey barrel. I'm pretty sure I am covered if I need to blast home invaders and I have time to get the long gun deployed. If those bad guys are gang-bangers and they have pissed off homies then my AR is still in the locker and not in evidence. Just my train of thought.

This is an angle I had not considered before.

I want one of the take-down 10/22's in a bad way. (Toss-in-the-car long gun)

[Odin Bravo One]

I still don't see how the average couch-potato is going to land a "killing blow" against the average gym-rat. The reality of it is the gym-rat will be able to stay in the fight longer, hit harder, move faster, take more punishment, because they're doing that all the time in their strength and conditioning work outs. So, the odds of the couch-potato being able to pull off some dim-mak death punch while they're getting their head beat in are pretty slim.

Just because we're all adults and out of school, doesn't change the fact that jocks will still pick on fatties and nerds in later life. And why is that? Because physical ability > mental intent

I guess I have to jump on the SME Bandwagon, and side with the point of view that mental capacity far exceeds physical strength and endurance.

If.......as you claim, the "gym-rat" can fight longer, and take more punishment..........why is it all of those "gym-rats" that show up to physical training and selection programs specifically designed for mortal combat professions.........like say, oh, I dunno......BUD/S...........quit?

Yet, the guy who was packing a few extra pounds, or missing more than a few is still standing at the end of the selection process?

What is the key to success there? Because it wasn't/isn't physical strength and ability.

And interesting that particular example is the gate that opens to the world where those guys routinely find themselves in fights for their lives. Not theoretically, or hypothetically. Really.

[Tamara]

A couple of great points here. First, I am also a fan of the 15-22 or the like for our non-dedicated/or smaller family members. I know that if you are inside of 50 yards and my 11 year old gets the red dot on you, it is all bad. She can ding a 50 yard plate at a scary rate.

Should stuff get all Rodney King up in our 'hood, my dot-equipped M&P 15-22 is exactly what I'd be lending the neighbor for the duration in that it serves the primary function of looking very scary and, worst come to worst, is stupid easy to use.

[LittleLebowski]

I guess I have to jump on the SME Bandwagon, and side with the point of view that mental capacity far exceeds physical strength and endurance.

If.......as you claim, the "gym-rat" can fight longer, and take more punishment..........why is it all of those "gym-rats" that show up to physical training and selection programs specifically designed for mortal combat professions.........like say, oh, I dunno......BUD/S...........quit?

Yet, the guy who was packing a few extra pounds, or missing more than a few is still standing at the end of the selection process?

What is the key to success there? Because it wasn't/isn't physical strength and ability.

And interesting that particular example is the gate that opens to the world where those guys routinely find themselves in fights for their lives. Not theoretically, or hypothetically. Really.

I don't have your level of experience but I do know of a Marine from the base band that went to BRC (Basic Reconnaissance Course). Dude was a PT stud. Sub 17 minute 3 mile runs, could do the 50 meter underwater swim easily. And once some physical and mental misery hit, he tapped out.

[BoppaBear]

Butterbean has been pretty damn successful over the years. Just a thought.

I am all in for fitness, but all the Tae Bo classes in the world won't equate to much when the guy you're fighting is literally willing to bite and chew his way to victory, if necessary, and has probably done it.

Some people are just fighters. Nothing pretty, nothing flashy, not necessarily trained, just willing to do what's necessary to get the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible. That's something that G-T-L Gym Rats (the stereotypical ones) aren't often ready to face. They intimidate based on physicality and chest pounding, while the unassuming guy does it with shock value and unexpected, overwhelming aggression.

To be, rather than to seem.

[RBid]

Re: physical condition vs mental fortitude

There are reasons why those selection schools test mental fortitude via PT. the end product is both mentally tough and physically capable. Being a mentally tough bucket of butter doesn't help any more than being a ripped cupcake.

[Odin Bravo One]

Re: physical condition vs mental fortitude

There are reasons why those selection schools test mental fortitude via PT. the end product is both mentally tough and physically capable. Being a mentally tough bucket of butter doesn't help any more than being a ripped cupcake.

Physically capable and being a "PT Stud" are two different things.

They also don't test mental fortitude via PT. PT is but one small part of those selection pipelines.

[JodyH]

I just know that when it comes to sparring in the mma gym I go to. All the attitude and mindset in the world doesn't do you any good when you go anaerobic 30 seconds into the fight.
Just curious...
How many of you mindset warriors have stepped into the cage and actually tested your limits?
It's a lot harder than you think.

[Tamara]

How many of you mindset warriors have stepped into the cage and actually tested your limits?

This place needs a popcorn smiley.

[Odin Bravo One]

I just know that when it comes to sparring in the mma gym I go to. All the attitude and mindset in the world doesn't do you any good when you go anaerobic 30 seconds into the fight.
Just curious...
How many of you mindset warriors have stepped into the cage and actually tested your limits?
It's a lot harder than you think.

How many of you MMA guys have stepped into face to face mortal combat and tested yours?

There is a pretty big difference between fighting in a gym, and fighting for your life.

ETA....

Not talking about in the course of an arrest. Or a street fight. Or a bar fight.

I'm talking about a fight with another man where only one is going to walk away, and that ends with so much blood on your clothes and gear that 7 months later when your wife goes to do your laundry there is enough left over that she starts balling when she brings it out to ask you about it.

ETAA.....

FWIW, I spent some of my misguided youth sneaking off with a group of friends to fight in underground clubs south of San Ysidro. This was pre-MMA fanboy days, when such a "sport" didn't have gyms where people could go and "train". So while I have never stepped foot into an MMA "Gym", I've gone a few rounds.

ETAA,,,,,A,,,,,, some for the rules of the game, some for all the marbles. For those who live life in the "game", wake up.......

Most don't consider it a game. If you do............I will crush you each and every time. And so will those who have developed a mindset to do the same. Just because you think you are one of the "good guys", doesn't mean I will..............nor will those who have developed a serious approach to their training and mindset.

[JodyH]

And you'd be the anomaly.

[Odin Bravo One]

Which part?

I've been called a lot of things, but I am pretty sure this is the first time I've been called that.

[smells like feet]

I don't want to insult anyone here, but the harsh reality is that if it comes down to a battle of mindset, ruthlesness and killer instinct, then the ex con with the neck tattoo who wants your wallet, is probably going to leave with your wallet.

That guy is a second or third generation gang member, has gone through juvie and adult jails and he robs, carjacks and does home invasions as his job. You will not fight dirtier than this guy.

You can win a battle of strength, skill, smarts and proficiency with weapons, if you have put in your time building up your body, mind and skillset.

But if your plan is to be not fit, not skilled and just be meaner than that guy, it's a plan that is not "training for reality".

[Salamander]

The rifle will have its place, but its range of use will depend on where you are. If you are living in rural areas like Wyoming, Colorado, or even Northern California, where the sight of a rifle is not that rare and ranchers carry them for their daily tasks, then rifles will probably be a primary arm. Ranges are further, encounters with unknown rarer, and the local remaining law enforcement will probably be a lot more sympathetic.

Maybe true in those other rural places, but in northern California... I wish you were right. Most everyone owns a rifle, sure. But now, thanks to the open carry folks, rifles need to be in a locked case. I haven't seen one in the back window of a pickup truck in a long time. So LE is now patterned to react whenever they see a gun in the open, except at the places where it's locally acceptable to shoot. It's only transport that's regulated outside city limits at least in the more remote counties.

A few of the old timers here joke that if the SHTF the first thing they will do is block access from the bigger cities. I have no reason to doubt them. I suspect that in a partial breakdown order would be maintained from within, and at least in my little town it would almost certainly be maintained by citizens in cooperation with LE. Most of the movers and shakers I know already discretely and legally carry pistols, so that wouldn't change.

[Kevin B.]

There is a pretty big difference between fighting in a gym, and fighting for your life.

Done both. Concur.

[RBid]

Physically capable and being a "PT Stud" are two different things.

They also don't test mental fortitude via PT. PT is but one small part of those selection pipelines.

I'm well aware of both of those things, and unsure why you got the impression that I, or anyone, would not be. I didn't use exclusive language. There was no, "testing mental fortitude only through PT". What I said was intended to point out that PT is INCLUDED (heavily) in the process, because the people who design these programs understand exactly what I concluded with: mental fortitude and physical capability are both necessary.

I could honestly care less about a hypothetical "PT stud cupcake vs mentally tough jelly doughnut" debate. I'm talking about training for reality, and making a statement about what I believe to be the best plan. I am strongly of the belief that the best prepared people address mindset and physical health.

Honestly, this goes beyond combat. Good luck having a happy life into advanced age without taking care of your body and knowing how to manage stress.

As far as the hypothetical MMA vs doughnut discussion goes, I'll leave that to those who are interested in it.

[ToddG]

Good luck having a happy life into advanced age without taking care of your body and knowing how to manage stress.

I suggest you:

1. Go read SeanM's bio on his profile page.
2. Contemplate.
3. Apologize.

You can skip straight to #3 if you'd prefer.

[JodyH]

Which part?

I've been called a lot of things, but I am pretty sure this is the first time I've been called that.
a·nom·a·ly
1. Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule.
2. One that is peculiar, irregular, abnormal, or difficult to classify:

You'd be the anomaly because unlike the majority who espouse mindset as the be all end all, you've actually tested your limits.
I'd also imagine your fitness level and skills base are far above the norm as well.

Mindset in a vacuum will not carry the day anymore than just owning a gun makes you "armed".

I just don't get how we accept the fact that you won't "rise to the occasion, but will default to your level of mastery" when it comes to technical skills like shooting, but when it comes to the mental game people assume that their "stone cold killer mindset" will carry the day.
Especially when they've never actually tested that "mindset" against a living, breathing opponent who's attempting to exert their will on them.

There's willing to do something.
There's able to do something.
Neither one of those alone equals willing and able.

Just expressing my irritation at the "mindset lecture circuit" that's filled with guys who wheeze when they have to walk more than 20 yards and have never taken a straight right to the mouth who preach that their "warrior mindset" is 99% of the fight.

That's where i'm coming from.

[Tamara]

But if your plan is to be not fit, not skilled...

I think that's more than a little straw man-ish.

[Chuck Haggard]

I often hear "MINDSET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". and yeah, I get it, however, comma.... lets look at some folks who had a metric kitten load of mindset,,,, say Japanese soldiers in WWII. Mindset won't get you through a wall of machine gun fire when you try to banzai a company of Marines.

I think Mindset goes towards many things outside of the fight, like taking care of important things beforehand and making smart choices.

Equipment very often is poo-pooed over mindset, but that didn't help the Japanese shoot down any B29s as they rolled over their cities with impunity.


Mindset is a foundation to build on, not an entire strategy.

[JodyH]

Just like you don't really know where your shooting skill level is without going on a timer, you don't really know your true mental fortitude until you've tested it.


"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth"

"People were asking me [before a fight], 'What’s going to happen?,' " Tyson said. "They were talking about his style. 'He's going to give you a lot of lateral movement. He's going to move, he's going to dance. He's going to do this, do that.' I said, "Everybody has a plan until they get hit. Then, like a rat, they stop in fear and freeze.' "

"If you’re good and your plan is working, somewhere during the duration of that, the outcome of that event you're involved in, you're going to get the wrath, the bad end of the stick. Let's see how you deal with it. Normally people don’t deal with it that well."

-Mike Tyson-

[Failure2Stop]

I'm still trying to figure out how a thread about rifle carry devolved to this argument on hand to hand and physical fitness levels of strangers.




Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[JodyH]

Internet truth #17:
Once a topic exceeds 4 or 5 pages it morphs into something completely different.

[Tamara]

Just like you don't really know where your shooting skill level is without going on a timer, you don't really know your true mental fortitude until you've tested it.

"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth." -Mike Tyson

Don't the guys at your MMA gym get a little freaked when the sims gun comes out?

[RBid]

I suggest you:

1. Go read SeanM's bio on his profile page.
2. Contemplate.
3. Apologize.

You can skip straight to #3 if you'd prefer.

You quoted a general statement. I didn't credit SeanM with being either mentally or physically unwell. To do so based on zero knowledge of who any person is would be rather silly.

[JodyH]

Don't the guys at your MMA gym get a little freaked when the sims gun comes out?
About half are felons... they don't get freaked when real guns come out.

[Tamara]

About half are felons... they don't get freaked when real guns come out.

Cool. So you're not just testing your ability to take a punch, but actually going to guns and blades like ECQC, then. I think that's very valuable. I need to do that.

[Shellback]

While the typical survivalist considers an openly worn long arm and accessories "necessary", Aguierre states that a rifle is useful in the context of home defense against multiple bad guys , period.... one still couldn't just walk out the door with an AR15 .

When I evaluate the idea of a long arm in post collapse society, I come to another reason which justifies concealed carry of a handgun over a rifle. When one is walking about, naturally such a person isn't cognizant of borders or property lines anymore-especially in rural areas. Walking around with an openly worn plate carrier and a shouldered SCAR17s would trigger someone observing their property line to shoot first and ask questions later. Why risk personal contact with an openly armed stranger when you can just pre-emptively shoot them , take their stuff, and bury the corpse with no risk of loss to you and yours?

What say you all on this topic? Am I off my rocker to consider this?

I didn't see anyone mention it thus far. Have you considered SBR type rifles? How about a 10.5" AR type carbine? Stowed in a backpack or possibly slung under a jacket?

For armor you could look at something like the Mayflower low-pro (http://www.mayflower-rc.org/store/7016/22/Low-Profile-Armor-Carrier.html) to wear under a shirt, jacket or the ubiquitous undercover cop baseball jersey.

CCW your pistol for "right now" type engagements and have ready access to a long gun on the move.

[JodyH]

Cool. So you're not just testing your ability to take a punch, but actually going to guns and blades like ECQC, then. I think that's very valuable. I need to do that.
The real value comes from knowing exactly where the line between fight and flight is for you as an individual.
No matter how much of a "warrior mindset" you have, you still have a breaking point.
Combat sports give you a relatively controlled environment to test and extend those limits.

It's easy to have and maintain a fighting mindset while you're kicking back drinking beer and dissecting YouTube videos.
A bit tougher when you're 80% Muay-Thai sparring with someone of equivalent skill and you're both wearing 16oz gloves and shin pads.
It's a lot tougher when you put on the 4oz gloves against a trained MMA fighter who wants to hurt you.
Exponentially tougher when there's a psychopath trying to kill you.

[JodyH]

Back to rifles.
Unless you're in a group of like minded and similarly armed people, open carry of a rifle is going to put a big bullseye on your back.
Low profile carry is the only way to go in a 1st world upheaval.
The nail that sticks up will be hammered down.

[Failure2Stop]

Back to rifles.
Unless you're in a group of like minded and similarly armed people, open carry of a rifle is going to put a big bullseye on your back.
Low profile carry is the only way to go in a 1st world upheaval.
The nail that sticks up will be hammered down.

Maybe.

Given that the US is significantly different than the rest of the world as far as firearms ownership, who knows what a widespread collapse will look like?

To me the question is not if a long gun is a good idea, but rather at what point is open carry of a long gun acceptable?



Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[RBid]

I think part of the equation when it comes to training for reality as it relates to long guns is to first determine what reality looks like. While most people are pretty well acquainted with today's reality, I've seen a common disconnect when it comes to speculation of possibility. Specifically, lots of guys who seem to subscribe to the idea that collapse would be followed by open ended chaos, a la Mad Max. I certainly don't know it all, but I would expect that order would be imposed in relatively short order. I think that it is a near statistical zero that those of us who do not carry long guns for work would wind up carrying them.

Again, just my thinking, and why I invest my efforts into handguns.

[Chuck Haggard]

That was kind of my point in posting FerFal's link. It would be a Mogadishu or Balkans scenario before a guy would be able to get away with running around open carry of a carbine and chest rig without getting jammed up by the authorities, much more likely they would be needing a handgun outside of those scenarios, except for the extra a long gun brings to static defense like defending your home in a rural setting, etc.

I know several folks who have chest rigs, carbines and other cool guy gear but don't have their CCW gear squared away at all.

[justintime]

For me it's a logistics issue. I would love to shoot my rifles more.. But I really only use the. Twice a month when I'm visiting my grandpa at the ranch. I carry a pistol everyday so I spend my money and effort towards what I am using more often. After a lot of pistol training I never feel rifle fundamentals are difficult at all. When I am in rural south Texas I always have the ar with me and a rem700 in the back of the truck. I need them to shoot varmints and anything that messes with fencing. Defensively I focus on pistol skills.

[Failure2Stop]

That was kind of my point in posting FerFal's link. It would be a Mogadishu or Balkans scenario before a guy would be able to get away with running around open carry of a carbine and chest rig without getting jammed up by the authorities, much more likely they would be needing a handgun outside of those scenarios, except for the extra a long gun brings to static defense like defending your home in a rural setting, etc.

I know several folks who have chest rigs, carbines and other cool guy gear but don't have their CCW gear squared away at all.

I would agree that pistol skills take priority, but not exclusivity.

[Chuck Haggard]

I would agree that pistol skills take priority, but not exclusivity.

I would agree with your agreement, but note that I think if a guy has a carbine, plate carrier and a case of ammo at home and not even a .380 in his pocket while out and about daily then he has his priorities backwards.

[David Armstrong]

How many of you MMA guys have stepped into face to face mortal combat and tested yours?

There is a pretty big difference between fighting in a gym, and fighting for your life.
A big +1. I've fought for fun and to see who was the better fighter. In that case you usually end up buying a beer for the other guy. I've also fought where you knew that if you lost there was a good chance you would never get up again. I've had to put a couple of guys in the ER in that case. A big difference.

[David Armstrong]

Maybe.
Given that the US is significantly different than the rest of the world as far as firearms ownership, who knows what a widespread collapse will look like?
To me the question is not if a long gun is a good idea, but rather at what point is open carry of a long gun acceptable?

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I'm sure that is to some extent dependent on the community itself. I know that here following major hurricanes, seeing folks with long guns openly carried was not unusual and nobody seemed to think much about it. As things got more under control the rifles and shotguns disappeared. I'm sure the same actions where some of my relatives live would be looked on somewhat less favorably.

[Shellback]

I'm sure that is to some extent dependent on the community itself. I know that here following major hurricanes, seeing folks with long guns openly carried was not unusual and nobody seemed to think much about it.

I've seen video evidence contrary to "nobody seeming to think much about it." I'm not saying that to rile you or anybody else up but after Katrina there were gun confiscations, from ordinary citizens, happening on what appeared to be a fairly frequent basis.

[GJM]

I've seen video evidence contrary to "nobody seeming to think much about it." I'm not saying that to rile you or anybody else up but after Katrina there were gun confiscations, from ordinary citizens, happening on what appeared to be a fairly frequent basis.

That would be a clue that someone is living in the wrong place, and I am referring to the confiscations and not the hurricanes.

In Alaska, while a rifle carried into the grocery store or a dinner place would seem odd, long guns and handguns are so commonly seen people hardly look twice. Out in the field, it would be odder to see someone without a firearm, and you would just as likely inquire whether they are OK if they are unarmed.

[GardoneVT]

I've seen video evidence contrary to "nobody seeming to think much about it." I'm not saying that to rile you or anybody else up but after Katrina there were gun confiscations, from ordinary citizens, happening on what appeared to be a fairly frequent basis.
Another excellent example.

No one besides LE could walk around freely armed with an openly carried rifle-and when the government realized they were powerless to control things,the first step they took was enforcing an illegal gun ban.

So we had an emergency situation where not only could someone NOT openly walk about with a weapon,those individuals who were armed with ANYTHING were brutally disarmed by police.An 86 year old woman was tackled like an NFL lineman for peacefully handing over a 6 shot revolver on camera.

Sure we now have laws against that-but it wasn't legal at the time either.If the choice for a local government is between looking inept and following the letter of the law,Katrina illustrated the politicians will gladly jettison Rule of Law to preserve the illusion of power.That's bad news for armed citizens trying to survive in a wrecked environment.

Some food for thought .It would seem that when S hits the F, concealment becomes more necessary and not less so.

[ToddG]

I've seen video evidence contrary to "nobody seeming to think much about it."

Not to speak for David, but I believe his point is that he's seen [i]first hand[i] "evidence contrary" to what you've seen on videos.

Because some officials in some places attempted to confiscate firearms doesn't change the fact that in lots of places where government officials were either (a) less opposed to gun ownership or (b) less available to participate in the decision-making process, folks were carrying boomsticks.

What would be interesting to me is knowing how many of those folks simply didn't have a suitable handgun and were simply left with nothing but a choice of hunting rifles & shotguns versus the number who purposely chose the long gun for some perceived superiority.

[GJM]

Again, it depends on where you live. Even in Louisiana, I bet it was situational. What New Orleans police did in certain neighborhoods what probably a LOT different than what they would have tried to pull in different socio economic neighborhoods, or in rural area surrounding New Orleans.

At Gunsite, I met an LAPD SWAT guy who told me a story about patrolling during the LA riots. He came upon a Korean store owner sitting in front of his store with a pump shotgun. Conversation went like this. "What are loaded with." Response was birdshot, at which point the LAPD guy gave the store owner a box of slugs for his shotgun, and told him good luck.

[Dagga Boy]

Because some officials in some places attempted to confiscate firearms doesn't change the fact that in lots of places where government officials were either (a) less opposed to gun ownership or (b) less available to participate in the decision-making process, folks were carrying boomsticks.

In the famous case of the elderly woman being wrestled down and her revolver taken was done by CALIFORNIA Highway Patrol who were working in Louisiana during Katrina. You may, or may not(and probably not) get your local L/E. Chances are good you'll be get out of state officers from lord knows where, and Feds...........and many are the folks that those agencies "could spare".....think about that a minute. It only takes one bad interaction with the wrong group of officers or soldiers to make for a bad day.

[Shellback]

Not to speak for David, but I believe his point is that he's seen [i]first hand[i] "evidence contrary" to what you've seen on videos.

Because some officials in some places attempted to confiscate firearms doesn't change the fact that in lots of places where government officials were either (a) less opposed to gun ownership or (b) less available to participate in the decision-making process, folks were carrying boomsticks.

Seeing something first hand doesn't negate what I've seen on video, nor does it change the facts I've stated. In fact, eyewitnesses are horrible at remembering accurately things that they've seen first hand, we all know this. Like I said, I'm not trying to rile anyone up, just pointing out facts that would contradict the idea of strolling around with a long gun post-"SHTF", what this thread is supposed to be about.

Frankly, I could care less what government official is opposed to gun ownership or is involved in any decision making process regarding my right to defend myself and my family. Their "decision" to try to negate my 2nd Amendment rights wouldn't fly with me or mine.

[ToddG]

In fact, eyewitnesses are horrible at remembering accurately things that they've seen first hand, we all know this.

Seriously? In this context that seemed like a valid thing to say? You're suggesting that David misremembers seeing people with long guns in that setting?

By that logic, how can I believe you actually remember what you saw on this video you claim to remember watching?

[Tamara]

Seeing something first hand doesn't negate what I've seen on video, nor does it change the facts I've stated. In fact, eyewitnesses are horrible at remembering accurately things that they've seen first hand, we all know this. Like I said, I'm not trying to rile anyone up, just pointing out facts that would contradict the idea of strolling around with a long gun post-"SHTF", what this thread is supposed to be about.

Nobody's saying that there weren't places where gun confiscation happened (City of New Orleans and some surrounding 'burbs) but you seem to be saying that there are no places where it didn't (most of Louisiana and Mississippi.)

[Odin Bravo One]

a·nom·a·ly
1. Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule.
2. One that is peculiar, irregular, abnormal, or difficult to classify:

You'd be the anomaly because unlike the majority who espouse mindset as the be all end all, you've actually tested your limits.
I'd also imagine your fitness level and skills base are far above the norm as well.

Mindset in a vacuum will not carry the day anymore than just owning a gun makes you "armed".

Just expressing my irritation at the "mindset lecture circuit" that's filled with guys who wheeze when they have to walk more than 20 yards and have never taken a straight right to the mouth who preach that their "warrior mindset" is 99% of the fight.

That's where i'm coming from.

I guess I run in different circles. Well, duh. I know I do. And this is the only place on the internet where I bother to exchange information and ideas, mostly because I was invited to do so. So I don't know what the "majority" of people who espouse mindset can or cannot do.

I know what the guys I know, who say mindset, can and can't do. None of whom fall into the "wheeze when they walk more than 20 yards", and all have been punched more than a few times in the face.

Certainly there is an extent of the population who do not know for a fact how critical "mindset" is. But with the Kyle's Defoor and Lamb, Paul Howe, and other SME's in the training arena sharing similar thoughts, it would stand to reason that their students would pick up some of what was put down.

As for the reality of carrying/using a rifle in the US due to whatever circumstances may arise that necessitate such action............ it's a scary thought. How far this society would have go down in order for it to be not only necessary, but also acceptable? Probably pretty far. Is it possible?

I don't know.

Is water wet?

[Tamara]

As for the reality of carrying/using a rifle in the US due to whatever circumstances may arise that necessitate such action............ it's a scary thought. How far this society would have go down in order for it to be not only necessary, but also acceptable? Probably pretty far. Is it possible?

I don't know.

Is water wet?

While I acknowledge the possibility of wholesale zombie apocalypse scenarios, ranging from regional Katrina-type disasters to the Balkans writ large, my immediate long gun concern outside the house is, as I have alluded to, urban unrest of some sort. There have been honest-to-Betsy burning-cop-cars-in-the-street riots near here within recent memory and you never know what might trigger one again. (Lord knows the media did their best to stir one up earlier this year.)

Then again, during New Year's Eve 1999, I was posting on the internets from here (http://goo.gl/maps/KMOZ0) with not a long gun in sight, so maybe I've gotten paranoid in my old age.

[Dagga Boy]

Let me see if I can get in the middle of this as I get what both Jody H and Sean M are both saying.

I get Jody's case as there are a whole crap load of people in the training, gun shop, and gun culture world (we could also probably include a majority of the "martial studies/enthusiast world) who talk a VERY big game about mindset, killing, and general feel good tough talk. I have found that many have not only never been tested themselves, but many have done nothing scarier than coming home and their mom forgot to leave the porch light on. I would much prefer to see those people who really don't know themselves to maybe dial it back and suggest reading and resources to their students/audience than talk about "what they would do". This goes along with lots of stupid advise from "our world".

On Sean's side of the equation, many of us have actually been engaged with people who are honestly trying to kill us. It is especially brutal when it is at contact range and you are entwined with very little margin for error. It is helpful to learn from people who get the brutality, especially if they have had multiple encounters of these types. Many of us have won fights we shouldn't have "on paper". So maybe tapping the information from those who have cheated the odds might be worthwhile in preparing yourself to possibly have to deal with a bad situation.

I wanted to add an additional note for about the not so fit and beautiful people of the world. Fat, ugly people have very little to lose, and it is probably not their first rodeo. Many have been fighting for a lifetime and have a lot of being picked on brewed up inside them. The overweight fat guy doesn't give a crap. If he doesn't really care about himself, he cares less about you. I wouldn't underestimate anybody. One of the things I did as a cop was to adopt a "warrior code" in which anybody who wanted to resist me got 110%, because I respected them as a fellow warrior. That attitude meant that "anything goes" to win, as well as not dishonoring myself by not stopping when it was done. As I liked to say, "when the cuffs go on, the war is over.....until then anything goes to win". The reality is any kind of human combat is scary. It ALWAYS has a risk of going wrong. If you don't believe me, just watch the "Trooper Coates" video to see this first hand. People cheat, and while we can try to stack the odds in our favor in a lot of ways, the fact is that sometimes the "underdog" wins with their mean gene.

[Odin Bravo One]

so maybe I've gotten paranoid in my old age.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.............

[GardoneVT]

Let me see if I can get in the middle of this as I get what both Jody H and Sean M are both saying.

I get Jody's case as there are a whole crap load of people in the training, gun shop, and gun culture world (we could also probably include a majority of the "martial studies/enthusiast world) who talk a VERY big game about mindset, killing, and general feel good tough talk. I have found that many have not only never been tested themselves, but many have done nothing scarier than coming home and their mom forgot to leave the porch light on. I would much prefer to see those people who really don't know themselves to maybe dial it back and suggest reading and resources to their students/audience than talk about "what they would do". This goes along with lots of stupid advise from "our world".

On Sean's side of the equation, many of us have actually been engaged with people who are honestly trying to kill us. It is especially brutal when it is at contact range and you are entwined with very little margin for error. It is helpful to learn from people who get the brutality, especially if they have had multiple encounters of these types. Many of us have won fights we shouldn't have "on paper". So maybe tapping the information from those who have cheated the odds might be worthwhile in preparing yourself to possibly have to deal with a bad situation.
.

There are some structural problems at work when discussing fighting mindsets.

For one, every fight is different. The first time I reached for my weapon in a personal defense situation was an entirely different background and circumstance from the second time. Fortunately both situations ended without shots being fired, but we have to remember that there are no cookie-cutter defensive situations. Just general tactics which can give us the edge-but beyond that, its a battle of wits between the parties, and no small amount of luck.

The second point is that , thankfully , we live in a society where physical violence is not a universal experience among the general population. Yet, this breeds machismo problems where people draw wrong conclusions due to their lack of experience.It doesn't help that people are inherently critical of others , especially if they haven't "seen the elephant". Why should a student listen to an otherwise competent instructor who hasn't had to shoot anyone ? That's a poisonous line of thinking, especially because the people who have BTDT won't be in a hurry to talk about it. I've had to reach for my carry gun, but that's not an experience im in a hurry to share at a roundtable no matter how educational it may be. If I'd wound up shooting the guy I REALLY wouldn't want to talk about it. Re-hashing the day I almost shot someone over and over isn't my idea of a great experience, and i'm inclined to believe I'm not alone in that thought process.

Thus, the only people with a distinct voice in the gun community are the blowhards and the loudmouths. Such is the nature of life.

[Odin Bravo One]

Thus, the only people with a distinct voice in the gun community are the blowhards and the loudmouths.

An interesting observation............

By that rationale, the instructors who are BTDT's fall into the "blowhards and loudmouths" category because they take their lessons learned and pass them on to their students.

[ToddG]

Thus, the only people with a distinct voice in the gun community are the blowhards and the loudmouths. Such is the nature of life.

Swingin' for the fences there, aintcha?

You've referenced Ayoob a number of times in other threads. Is he a blowhard and loudmouth, then? I doubt you think so. There are quite a few folks who participate here who have some pretty extensive experience who wouldn't properly be labeled so, either.

This honestly has to be one of the weirdest threads PF has ever seen...

[Kevin B.]

Thus, the only people with a distinct voice in the gun community are the blowhards and the loudmouths. Such is the nature of life.

In some places, there is an expectation to share your knowledge and experience, to make others better. It is not considered being a "blowhard" or a "loudmouth." It is considered a moral obligation.

[ToddG]

It is considered a moral obligation.

Well said.

And since this thread has gone almost completely off topic in so many directions my head is spinning, it's a good time to send it gently into that good night...

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/PF-tombstone.jpg